pan6467

I knew this election was going to be bad and I truly want to believe somewhere down the line one of these men will turn this country around.... but for the love of God we are soooooo fucked. Are we truly nuts? Where are the JFK's, FDR's, Truman's, Reagan's???? Like them or hate them they truly worked to make America better...... These 4 candidates and VP nominees are just nuts.

The old nutjob who worries me about his sanity:






The man who is just dumb and can't speak off a teleprompter:








The woman who has a Reverend Wright herself:






And she scares me..... Darth Palin:



Which leads us to this man:







We are fucking doomed. If it all weren't so scary I'd swear this was a sitcom or reality show "America's Scariest President"....

"That's right America we have 4 people with microphones 24/7 saying anything it takes to get your vote..... and boy we have some truly funny statements from an insane old white man..... a well we can't say anything about him because anything we say would be taken as racist and not for what it truly is..... A woman that while she is the sexiest politician to ever run on such a ticket is .... well..... reminds us ofa sexy Wicked Old Witch of the West..... and finally the man who is so egotistical and lost he believes he can get wheelchair bound men to stand but yet humble enough to think a woman would be a better candidate than him.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

I can't think of a time in my lifetime where I would have voted for someone instead of against. As a matter of fact, even looking back across American history I can only name maybe 3 (Washington, Jefferson, FDR) I would have voted for, and even they did things I strongly disagreed with. Until the day I myself run, I suspect this will simply be reality.

Chalk it up to the fact that one really cannot approach the oval office without some pandering; some concessions; some hypocrisy. Until there's a revolution, this will be the case. The job requires ambition, and ambition has baggage.

Shoot, even when I voted for Cobb in 2004, I wasn't voting for someone that really inspired me.

ratbastid

Look, pan, if we put you under the media scrutiny these people are under, you'd be caught on film saying some dumb-ass stuff too. We all would.

The question isn't whether they say silly things sometimes (and then, because of the situation they're in, those things hit youtube and are echoed around the world). The question is: what do they stand for and what direction will they move the country and the world.

Willravel

Not Charlatan. Just saying.

pan6467

Ah, but I'm not running for office. I say FUCK too much.

This is just some of the gaffes. A handful...... Look, I'll grant none of them are Bill Clinton but Hey Zeus Freaking Crisps... these people are running for the most important job in our country at a time when we disparately need strong leadership and I truly don't see it.

These people are complete and total idiots, I don't see one as true presidential material.

And to say "well we all make gaffes", while true...... each of the above aren't just YouTube fodder they are being used by the differing camps to show theirs is better.

I just brought it all together.

I look for a president to be somewhat well spoken, to know how many states there are... tired is a fucking excuse, gee as president he'll be needed to stay up late in a crisis and God knows what mistake he'll make because he was tired, but my favorite part wth Obama is the second anyone tries to point anything out about this man.... they are racist, they are hateful, they are idiots who don't know anything.......

McCain.... this man was a great uniter, could stand on his principles didn't care what others thought, was a truly good leader in that aspect, Presidential IMHO and now he's a GOP puppet shucking and jiving and saying whatever he can to get the core votes while the centrists are left scratching their heads....

Darth Palin, the woman is nuts..... pray to God get me elected, Bush Doctrine is to eliminate all those pesky radical Muslims,

and Biden..... just wow..... lol Biden.

So, to say it's just YouTube following them around and posting gaffes as they come is an excuse. These people are completely and totally insane, power hungry nutjobs that I don't see as having any type of plan to bring the US back to greatness or be inspiring. And we NEED that now.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ratbastid

I'm BEGGING you not to go there again. BEGGING.

Baraka_Guru

These are along the same line as my thoughts. We don't expect our nation's leaders to write policy or conduct strategies or make tough decisions during a public interview or while on TV or in front of a large audience.

There is a difference between interacting with the public and doing your job as a politician. Measure these people by what they do, not what they say in public.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

pan6467

I voted for Nader in 2000...... I have to vote for the major candidate I fear least..... not like this year. I can say don't look at me I voted Nader.... but I threw my vote away and we ended up with Bush. Maybe that vote and others who think like I do mattered and had we voted for Gore, the world would be different. But I despised Gore and could not vote for him.... and I honestly thought he'd win anyway so my vote didn't matter.

This time I can't do that. I need to voe for the person I fear least and be able to stand up and say I need a shower and disinfected but I voted for the person I think will do less damage than the other guy.

That's not how we are supposed to vote.... I have never voted with a pessimistic view, well 2000 was in a way I guess, but not like this year. I am truly saddened that the majority believed these were the 2 best men in America to choose from.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

roachboy

to go a little further with what the other rb said above---have you ever played with an audio software like protools or audacity? you can load a recorded sound and the platform shows you a map of it from the wave-form and timbre viewpoint. you can also change the time-scale that you're working with, but the change in scale doesn't mean that your browser changes size--so you can see the track as, say, 4 minutes or you can see it in 1/10th of a second intervals and there's a sense in which they both look the same (alot of times the visual of zooming in on an time-interval registers as blowing up the waveforms, but you can control for that)--it's really easy to find yourself wandering about in the complexities of fractions of a second's worth of sound...you can built pieces from units made up of these tiny intervals and generate all kinds of complexity that folk will not quite hear but will not quie not hear when you run the piece in a more "normal" time-scale.

what lets you subdivide the normal time-scale of hearing (to continue with this) is the software---in the normal course of hearing/listening, intervals of a 1/10th of a second are "there" but we usually hear in patterns that are quite a lot longer than that, so functionally they are "there" but not necessarily "present" if you see what i mean.

the reason i mention all this is that not only are these people who are running for major domo of the oligarchy subject to amazing amount of television attention, but the technology itself has effects on how you think about what you're seeing. you can make loops of fottage of anyone saying something stupid or that sounds stupid and repeat it again and again until that's all you see. just as you could in principle dissolve a sentence that you are saying into a series of disconnected-seming 1/10th of a second sound intervals or you could, while walking, also be laced (in principle) under a microscope so that you would be simultaneously walking on one scale and be a space between molecules on another--in the latter instance, you'd still be walking as before, but the viewpoint defined by the microscope would exclude all but a space between adjacent molecules in a particular quadrant of your body.

tv bothers me alot in that it is a continuous stream of discontinuous scales of information---for example (another one) the little trainwreck that was sarah palin's attempt to answer a question about mc-cain from that heavyweight tv interviewer katie couric takes up about the same amount of time, in terms of footage, as sequences you might see on the invasion of georgia or the conflicts that have been unfolding between the united states and pakistan over american cross-border raids. the entirely trivial and the very large are made equal in terms of scale and are presented within a continuum of information homogenized in the same way. at any given point, you can decide to interrupt this flow by choosing to play loops of particular intereactions or segments of interactions over and over again, so that a space of 3 sentences can come to occupy the same time-scale as a war far away.

and because this is a possibility that's always available thanks to the way in which television packages infotainment, it's difficult to maintain a sense of perspective--and i think this holds for most of us---and very small things can and generally are made into very big things and very big things into small things.

what holds all this chaos together is ourselves, sitting in chairs.

this seems to me the most heavily tv mediated campaign i can remember, maybe because everyone, everywhere sees in the bush administration a kind of wreck and the folk in televisionland maybe see in that a chance to ramp up their importance by focusing on the rituals of transition for "us" so that we don't have to make any of these pesky choices about where to direct our attention, and then runs that through its usual kaleidoscope machinery, and so we find ourselves, sitting in chairs.

it's all very odd.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

You didn't throw away your vote, Pan. You're only throwing away your vote if you're not voting for who you want to vote for. If Kucinich were still running, as an independent, Obama would lose my vote in a heartbeat.

pan6467

No, I measure ANY man by the company they keep, how well they stick to their beliefs, how much respect they show people and by what they do....

These people are running for the Presidency.... not your mayor.... these are supposed to be the best, brightest and have great plans for the nations future and they are all fucking nuts, dishonest, don't have a true workable direction in which to lead. If any of these 4 people ran 20 years ago they would never have made it out of their second or third primaries.

What has Obama truly done?

McCain has had some great legislation but he has blown his reputation as a uniter and "maverick" totally away and now is just a GOP puppet.

Darth Palin.... the more she talks the more I bang my head against a brick wall wondering how I was duped into liking her at first.

And Biden..... I liked Biden, but the more I see of him he looks like an out of touch ego centric asshole. He did some very great things at one time but now he's the Democratic version of McCain.

So you tell me, who do you trust and why. Cause I just do not see it from any of these 4.
-----Added 27/9/2008 at 03 : 18 : 10-----
I have had this argument with LS. I would love to say that and believe it. But after 2000, I can't anymore.

It's just how I feel.

I want to be inspired in these dark times, I want a leader that can show he is rock hard in his beliefs and has a background to show he doesn't go with party lines he votes for what he feels is best not for him but for the country.

And out of these 4 no one is even close. McCain was at one time but he's just gone nuts now.

I have always been able to find something inspirational in the person I voted for in the past...... this year I can't find even a sliver..... I looked, I begged, I have tried to make slivers only to have them disintegrated not by anyone else but the candidate themself....... I truly am scared of what we have running. First time in my life.

Even in 2000 and 04 I hated Bush, but I wasn't that truly scared. I honestly believe in his eyes he had what he felt was the best intentions for the country. Who he surrounded himself with after and gave power to are different stories.

96 No one can argue Dole wanted what was est for the nation, again, Clinton just had better vision and plans.

92 Bush was carrying on what sold in the past for him but he was trying. Clinton just had better vision and plans.

88 Dukakis was a man with a very good vision and desire to better the nation.... he just lacked charisma.

I don't think any of these 44 truly have any idea or intention of trying to figure out what is best for the country. They have their own agendas and they want the power for their agenda and not one of those agendas do I see truly even in a mask and with the right marketing any intention of helping this country rebuild.

I'm going to go take a bath in Lysol now.... just thinking about this has me feeling infested and dirty.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ratbastid

Maybe this thing can be resolved down lines of party-ideology.

I like Obama, so this is obviously not my personal thought-process. But if both presidential candidates are equally lame to you, and neither VP candidate is a tie-breaker (or deal-breaker), you could vote the candidate you think will better enable those in congress who you generally agree with to move the country the direction you prefer? It looks like congress will be even more strongly Democratic next session. So the question might be: do you want generally-Democratic principles supported or thwarted?

roachboy

why do you think it is the indivdual person who is so important? why is obama's personality or mc-cain's personality such a big deal? an administration is assembled along ideological and affinity (patronage) lines and operates collectively--with a vertical hierarchy--but still collectively--as vacant as i consider cowboy george to be, his administration was not deducible from his personality and has turned out to be far different (and more dangerous and incompetent) than his personality would have given any of us reason to expect (at least the first time--the second was mostly fear-mongering and machine politics in the ugliest possible sense that explains it).

geez pan, you act like a royalist, in that it's the person of the king who represents the unity of the state. maybe you are a royalist, in that tv kinda way.

but i don't think that corresponds to how anything actually happens, except for tv images--they happen that way, they focus on the individual person of the president, they would pitch you toward a basic misunderstanding of how the system operates.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Charlatan

Thanks but I say *a lot* of dumb ass things. We all do.

I am thinking that this election is the first with a truly "youtube" savy populace. Not only is the media scrutiny there (it has been for a long time) but now every yokel with a computer can upload these missteps and gaffes for all to see.

One would think that more scrutiny would be a good thing but let's face it... there is scrutiny and then there is quality scrutiny.

It becomes even more important to know the source of your information... to understand the inherent bias and to be able to "read" the infoscape. Never has the need of media literacy been more essential to the populace than now (and I think the need is only going to get greater).

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

dc_dux

pan..IMO, your argument only makes sense if all voters make emotional judgments of the candidates based on the number of gaffes....or past acquaintances...or other irrelevant issues. I dont doubt that many do.

And it falls right into the mold of making the election about image rather than issues.

Believe it or not, many voters take a more informed approach to the process and consider policy positions, depth of knowledge on the important issues, leadership skills (temperament, decision making process, etc) .....

Its a good thing youtube wasnt around for the first 200 years of the republic..I doubt any past president would have passed your test!
-----Added 28/9/2008 at 12 : 07 : 49-----

Oh, and I had to laugh at your "where are the Kennedys and Reagans?"

Based on your standards....What did Kennedy accomplish in his time in the Senate? Wasnt he just a rich guy who played off his war heroism and whose family made its money in bootlegging. Reagan, a B move actor who could read a script and "look" presidential, with broad ideological goals but only superficial understanding of many issues.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

I am to a certain degree. I believe the president should show our best qualities, be well spoken, well versed in the world affairs. He should be among our brightest and best. He should be charismatic, have class and be able to off the cuff talk about what he believes in without fear. When I get excited I stutter and stammer, I can understand if one of these people would, but it goes deeper. These men make too many mistakes. It's not like these Youtubes are catching them in the streets or in private..... every one of the above gaffes were in public and at either rallies or in interviews when these people should be at their best and most well versed.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

I guess we each see it in our own way.

You want a bright, charismatic person who can talk off the cuff about his policy positions...and I see Obama. You mentioned Kennedy, I see many parallels...except Obama doesnt have family mafia ties or cheat on his wife.

You want someone well versed on world affairs..and I see Biden; there is probably not a more knowledgeable person on foreign policy in the Senate

So they make bloopers in speeches, and may stammer, and have an ego. I dont look for perfection...cuz I know it cant be found in any candidate.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

Pan, people like that don't run for president.

pan6467

I would love to do that but the Dem party has been taken over by radicals and the issues I cared about are hardly discussed and easily sold out. The GOP, there are some strong issues that I like their stances on but over all they still are not close to getting my support.

When it comes to voting for the President this year... no matter how I try to look for a positive, I can't find one. I have stated for a long time, it comes to who I fear less. And even that is starting to become blurry.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

RetroGunslinger

I agree with Pan that the choices are like a bad joke, and I agree with Willravel that it's simply how it is....

So, I've decided I'm going to go live in Australia. It already looks like it was hit with a nuclear missile or fifty, so I can't imagine it getting much worse.

__________________
It's a rare pleasure in this world to get your mind fucked. Usually it's just foreplay.

M.B. Keene

dc_dux

Harry Reid is a radical?

The most recent crop of new senators...Webb, McKaskill, Tester..and your own Brown (probably the most liberal of the bunch)...are radicals? Most new House members are more left center than left. If anything, the Democratic party is moving to the center.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

Kennedy was a 6 year congressman, who "had a mixed voting record, often diverging from President Harry S. Truman and the rest of the Democratic Party". He was not only a war hero, the son of an Ambassador, a Pulitzer Prize winning co-author of a tremendously great read, but he had vision, courage, and was extremely well spoken, he was not afraid to take stances against the party.

Reagan was president of the Screen Actors Guild, a very good Governor of California before he became president.

So yes, both of these men had serious track records and pasts that were easy to follow. They took stances and very rarely backed down unless for good cause.

There are no Kennedys or Reagans this election. There isn't even a Carter, Nixon, Ford or Truman.

I would like to say we have a Millard Fillmore and Rutherford B Hayes running, but that would be a disservice to Hayes and Fillmore.
-----Added 28/9/2008 at 02 : 53 : 14-----
In 2 years what has the Democratic Congress truly done? What has it accomplished? What have hey tried to get passed for education, worker's rights and wages, healthcare. I have seen years of saber rattling over Iraq and oil {only as the prices sky rocketed}. I don't see them doing much.

They the issues that are important to me.... they remain silent on or sell out.


And yes to some degree Brown is the most Liberal, but he also is IMHO the most honest and truly caring of the bunch. He's a great Ohio Democrat..... that we need more of.
-----Added 28/9/2008 at 02 : 55 : 56-----
I like Australia also. New Zealand, Hell, even Canada. But the funny thing is.... they are making it easier and easier to come into this country and harder and harder to get out.

Our country must have some bad karma going on for us to get these nightmare choice candidates.
-----Added 28/9/2008 at 03 : 14 : 40-----
They used to. They still do. There were some damned good candidates on both sides that were honorable men and Hillary that could have made great presidents..... but the press dictated to the people who they wanted and made it so.

There are many good men in women in Congress and in state governments that could have made great presidents.

But the media doesn't want them. The powers that be makes sure they don't get the funds they need to run or stand in contention.

A nice list of whom I think would have made decent choices compared to what we have as president, some ran some didn't:

Trump
Hilary
Richardson
Bayh
Janet Napolitano
Voinivich
Ron Paul
Mitt Romney

An one of them would be a better choice than what we have now. And some of them I am not fond of their politics but they are strong and true to their beliefs and I firmly believe would have the best interest of the nation at heart and right or wrong, agree or disagree would do their best to do what was best.

There are far far greater people out there and the American people need to demand that the best stand up and be heard.

Not the 2 jokers we have running.

Hell, even Kucinich is better, he maybe wacky but he's true to his beliefs.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

I'll give you war hero.
Joe Kennedy bought his ambassadorship with his wealth from bootlegging.
Profiles in Courage was a great read...have you read Audacity of Hope? It is Obama's political manifesto and explains his policy positions and how he arrived at them as a result of his life experiences.
Obama took stands against his party on several occasions..probably as many as Kennedy....examples: voted with Repubs on class action lawsuits, 05 energy bill, FISA reform
and I guess the Kennedy family mafia ties was ok for you. a double standard?

SAG really dealt with issues that affected most working Americans? more so than a community organizer for the same number of years?
Reagan's depth of knowledge on most public policy issues was nowhere near Obama's or McCain's and was probably closer to Palin's.


Their greatest accomplishment was restoring transparency and accountability to the Executive branch....and the first ethics/earmark reform for Congress in more than 10 years.

IMO, they accomplished about as much as they could considering Senate filibusters and WH vetoes.

Workers rights? Beyond the first minimum wage bill in 10 years. How about the reauthorization of the civil rights act that is currently under consideration and includes:

-- Equal Remedies Act of 2008
-- Older Workers' Rights Restoration Act of 2008
-- Preservation of Civil Rights Protections Act of 2008
-- Settlement Encouragement and Fairness Act
-- Workers' Minimum Wage and Overtime Rights Restoration Act of 2008

Health care? How about their attempt to expand SCHIP to cover more kids of working families

Education? How about the Enhancing Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics Education Act or the Higher Education Act.

As i said...we see what we want to see.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

Ronald Reagan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What exactly did Obama do as a community organizer? I have yet to hear what he has done.

I find it funny someone who is telling me that the Democratic Party is still the party that stands up for what I believe and want my party to stand and fight for.... but is so willing to trash the man who is the ICON of the party I love, JFK and will stand up for someone who is not even in the same league.

That's like people trying to say McCain is the second coming of Ronald Reagan. It is laughable and delusional and a desperate plea to try to get voters to vote for your man.

The true winner come November 4, is the losing candidate... maybe that is why both seem so desperate to lose. I don't see either trying to win.

The biggest loser come Jan. 20th {or thereabouts} is this country when 1 of these men is sworn into office.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

Read "Audacity of Hope"....it wont hurt that much.

Do you really think Reagan's testimony on commies in hollywood had an impact on the lives of most working Americans?


I am not trashing Kennedy (you're not denying the mafia connections or the adultery, are you?). I just dont idolize him. Few historians consider him a great president. But he generally does rank higher than Reagan.

And I am still trying to understand how the Democratic party has been "taken over by radicals."

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Charlatan

You are basing your needs on a pipe dream. Nobody is gaffe free. No. Body.

I am sure if the heroes of the American past were subject to this level of scrutiny they would have been just as gaffe-laden. To think that Washington, Kennedy, Adams, Jefferson, et al. *never* stuttered, *never* misspoke is to view history through rose coloured glasses.

I find this whole conversation just a bit sad. It is one thing to ask that a candidate embody the values you have listed in the beginning of your quoted bit above but to ask for anyone to be *perfect* is a lost cause.

Time to wake up and face reality because what you are asking for is not possible.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

dc_dux

I keep hearing all this talk about this election being about having to chose between the "lesser of two evils" or having to vote against one candidate rather than for the other candidate.

And to some extent, for some voters, that is absolutely the case. But the fact is, most Americans dont hate both candidates.

If you read deeper into most polls, that sentiment is limited...particularly among Obama supporters. Most are voting FOR him because they share his public policy vision, appreciate his leadership qualities and intelligence, believe he can be a consensus builder, or a combination of these and other factors.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Charlatan

It's funny... this is the first election in a while where there has been a clear feeling of voting *for* someone. I don't think I can remember ever having this feeling with the US presidential elections (not that I can vote).

(by the way: For clarity's sake I just changed the title of the thread name. I also moved it to the Election 2008 forum)

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

dc_dux

Its the first time for me since Clinton...I was for Bill Bradley in 2000 and Howard Dean in 2004. I didnt vote "for" either Gore or Kerry...I voted against Bush.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ratbastid

Wow, pan, I've got to say... for the first time on this thread, I think I really understand where you're coming from. Not agree necessarily, but understand.

You're an idealist. And one fly in the ointment sours the whole thing for you. The candidates aren't perfect, and so they're no good at all. You can't get behind either of the major parties because they have things going on you disagree with, and there are individuals you can't get on board with, so the whole thing's off.

In a way, it's a noble approach. I applaud your unwillingness to sacrifice your standards and ideals. And I can see how it would make real-life things like voting awfully difficult. I imagine life is fairly frustrating for you--I doubt things line up with your ideals all that often. Yeah, I've got a whole new insight into the conundrum that had you post this OP.

Cynthetiq

You don't vote for either of them, plain and simple.

of course people will give you the whole vote lesser evil schpeal, but the reality is then you voted for one of them.. DUH!

Before the elections... you go to work, pay your taxes, get involved in the community, enjoy your life.

after the elections, you go to work, pay your taxes, get invovled in the community, enjoy your life.

but why oh why would you vote for someone or something you don't believe in is beyond me.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ngdawg

I am in total agreement with Pan. This election is the worst I've seen since I first registered to vote 30 years ago. And that little opinion leads me to this question....

Why are so many thoroughly disgusted with how things have gone down and yet declare they will vote for one ass or the other? There are others running, you know.
Instead of bemoaning and crying in your beer and stating how this country is doomed one way or the other and then playing the game you so loudly protested, vote for the person who most closely resembles YOUR IDEALS.You can't go buying a week's worth of hamburger then complain there's nothing but hamburger to eat and expect people to sympathize.
I'd encourage everyone who can do so to vote, but NOT fall for the hype of two-party elitism.

/me shakes her head....

roachboy

a. the royalist view of the presidency is derived from television's presentation of the office.
b. that view follows from the nature of the medium of television, not from the characteristics of the office of president
c. what it seems you want, pan, is a fully articulated television image of El Jeffe---since tv came to prominence as a medium, that process of Imagine Construction is a perk of being in office---no-one has that image before they get to office--reagan, whom i loathed then and loathe still, didn't--no-one has it. so you're asking that someone actually *be* the way that person will subsequently be constructed as being by the major opinion co-ordinating device in the united states.
but that's an image.
no-one is like that sort of image.

it's better to look at television images of power in the way one looks at socialist realist images of stalin.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Cynthetiq

where is Stalin's other hand?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

roachboy

i think he only has one arm in that image.
the magically regenerating arm is but one of the many things you can watch in stalin images across time.
the hair (which strangely is hidden beneath the yachting-boy hat) is like a separate personality.
stalin's hair has its own biography.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dc_dux

I guess you dont accept the fact that most Obama supporters are voting for him because he most closely resembles THEIR IDEALS.

And there is nothing to support the position that most are voting for him for any other reason.

You dont like either major party candidate....thats fine...and many agree with you....but that doesnt change the fact that most are voting FOR either McCain or Obama.....not as a protest, not out of frustration that their choices are limited, but because they support one or the other of those two candidates.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ratbastid

Obama spoke in my home town yesterday morning. I didn't go (doors opened at 10, so to get in you'd have to be there at 6, and much as I enjoyed seeing him the time I did before, I just couldn't get up for the occasion). Some early-riser took this picture:



Look how grumpy he is in this picture! Do we really want a grumpy-puss like this running Our Country? I just can't get behind that! And McCain is obviously pure evil. OH WHAT TO DO!!!

Cynthetiq

I'd be grumpy too if some random guy was asking me to pull his finger...

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

abaya

That's precisely what I'm doing, ng. For the first time in my voting history, I am voting FOR someone, instead of against. And I'm pretty damn excited about that, and trying to get as many people to vote FOR Obama, along with me, as I can. So far, have persuaded my parents, aunt, uncle, and am working on some friends.
-----Added 28/9/2008 at 11 : 28 : 24-----

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

flstf

I see someone with vision for the future who is looking over the crowd of fellow Americans and contemplating the responsibility he has and the faith people have in him and concentrating on policies he could help implement which will make our lives better, grow the economy and enhance our status in the world and make us safer.

Either that or he is just tired and grumpy that day.