Desperate move or good for the campaign??? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pan6467 · 09-12-2008, 09:54 AM

First, this is to bring out campaign "slogans" or catch phrases or ads etc.... and state your opinion on such. Is it helping your candidate or hurting? Was it a good move or is it going to bite the ass of your opponent?

Mine is the whole Jesus was a community organizer, Pontius Pilot was a governor, I find it pathetic that the Obama campaign and supporters seem to like throwing that around. How dare people try to compare Obama to Jesus, I think it tries to prey on one's faith and beliefs but it's backfiring and they can't or won't stop it.

I'm not exactly a Christian, but I do follow his teachings to the best of my ability and ego.... and I find this an act of desperation trying to get Christian votes. It takes focus off issues and shows arrogance. I just can't believe someone running for president would step this low. This is truly insane. Has our country stepped this low?

And ..... ahem..... Obama is NOT a community organizer any longer, he is a Senator and very much a part of the government.

I'd be interested to see what Obama truly did as a community organizer... did he turn water into wine?

I find it ironic that Obama's people dislike the term Obama the Messiah..... but will support this.

Desperate move.

roachboy · 09-12-2008, 10:02 AM

why are you focused on this, pan?
there are substantive positions on real issues that separate the two presidential candidates and which constitute the actual grounds for making a rational decision as to who to vote for.
this is television idiocy, the sort of stuff geared at people who are naive enough to conflate questions of image with matters of position.
i say this despite my fascination with signifiers and how they are constructed.

in this case, you have a not terribly interesting rejoinder to the republican attacks on the whole idea of community organizing in the context of their convention. i think that advert nothing more than a lob in the direction of christian voters, which constitutes a FAR wider swatch of the population than the far-right evangelicals would have one think, given that they like to arrogate to themselves a monopoly on the term, as if they are "real" and everyone else who happens to believe the same basic things but not in the same way are "Other" (the old canard about catholics not being christian comes to mind--i'm sure you know the drill).

i don't think it particularly interesting, i don't think it particularly serious and i certainly don't think that tracking individual commericals is a good way to arrive at anything like a coherent assessment of the tactical--not to mention strategic--moves on the part of either campaign.

so why are you focused on this stuff, apart from the fact that for whatever reason you've decided you don't like the obama you imagine obama to be.

jewels · 09-12-2008, 10:09 AM

Move on. This was one congressman's answer to the sarcastic "only a community organizer" comments about Obama. It was good enough for Jesus, was the sentiment.

And he added a little, by the way, Pontius Pilate was a governor, implying that the title doesn't tell much about the person.

Just goes to show you can find what you're looking for if you look hard enough.

Sheesh. When are we going to argue lipstick?

dc_dux · 09-12-2008, 10:09 AM

Pan...its a stretch to hold either candidate responsible for comments or ads from persons or independent advocacy organizations with which they have no formal ties.

I'll give you an example that I think is worse than the above....and it is an official McCain campaign ad.

An official McCain ad declares that Obama's only accomplishment in the Illinois senate was that he "backed legislation to teach "'comprehensive sex education' to kindergartners." The announcer then says, "Learning about sex before learning to read? Barack Obama. Wrong on education. Wrong for your family." (McCain: I approve this message)

YouTube - Education

YouTube - Education

IMO..you are just lookng for any jusitification to hold Obama responsible for any comment by anybody anywhere anytime.

pan6467 · 09-12-2008, 10:13 AM

I opened this thread for ALL to view their opinion on ANY campaign catchphrase, slogan, ad etc. I think these types of things can hurt or help campaigns to move the election a couple points.

When a congressman is on TV saying the above, when the rich and famous vocal celebrities and so on say this publicly trying to sway votes it becomes an issue.

You do not have to read this post RB, but there maybe others, on either side that have a slogan, catchphrase, ad, etc that upsets them, pisses them off, that may make them proud, happy, whatever emotion, and they want to share why that means something to them or their outrage against it.

That is what this thread is for. There are many and will be many that will focus on issues.... but perhaps we need a thread like this for people to just vent or gloat.... why not let them?
-----Added 12/9/2008 at 02 : 17 : 41-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Pan...its a stretch to hold either candidate responsible for comments or ads from persons or independent advocacy organizations with which they have no formal ties.

I'll give you two that I think are worse than the above....one is a McCain campaign ad and the other an independent guy, but who serves on a McCain campaign advisory board.

An official McCain ad declares that Obama's only accomplishment in the Illinois senate was that he "backed legislation to teach "'comprehensive sex education' to kindergartners." The announcer then says, "Learning about sex before learning to read? Barack Obama. Wrong on education. Wrong for your family." (McCain: (I endorse this message)

The "unofficial" ad campaign is from Deal Hudson, who serves on McCain's 80-person advisory board for Catholic issues and who has been on radio and websites saying that Obama supports infanticide.

IMO..you are just lookng for any jusitification to hold Obama responsible for any comment by anybody anywhere anytime.

No, I'm not.... but if that is what you believe ok.

Why not express true OPINION and how those examples you gave make YOU feel? Give your belief why you believe those were acts of desperation.

This thread is about that.... I just happened to be the one who started it and gave my example first..... I want to see OPINIONS from both sides. This isn't about me or just my views.... It's about letting ANYONE who wants to voice an opinion on the subject to voice it.

roachboy · 09-12-2008, 10:18 AM

well, first off if i had thought the thread a problem rather than finding it to be something of a mystery, i'd have acted on it in mod-mode. and alot of threads address this---one way or another almost every election-relation thread touches on adverts one way or another--but there's a political question involved with how much attention to pay to this register itself. you have to know that, and you have to have expected that folk would be saying "enough of this." so they're saying "enough of this."

personally, i think the mc-cain people are in serious trouble if folk start turning off the adverts.
but that's another matter.

dc_dux · 09-12-2008, 10:19 AM

pan...I do agreee with part of your title...."desperate" but in a very calculated way.

I think it is a desperate (and calculated) attempt by the McCain camp to move the discussion as far away from the issues as possible.

"This election is not about issues," said Rick Davis. "This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates."

It is at the base of the Rick Davis (campaign manager)/Steve Scmidt (Rove protegee and senior adviser to campaign) campaign strategy for McCain.

Your OP feeds right into that strategy...good work!

added: I deleted the "unofficial" ad I had posted above since that would be playing into that strategy as well. I left the offical McCain ad up there because, IMO, that is one for which McCain should be held accountable.

smooth · 09-12-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

well, first off if i had thought the thread a problem rather than finding it to be something of a mystery, i'd have acted on it in mod-mode.

I've been gone so long I didn't even know what the hell you meant by this until I looked at your title.

pan, I don't agree with you how continuously link Obama with anything anyone says anywhere that you find distasteful.

ASU2003 · 09-12-2008, 04:45 PM

I don't watch commercials (MythTV automatically takes them out), and I'll watch the debates to see where they stand on the issues and who I think will do a better job.

Seaver · 09-12-2008, 06:00 PM

That quote puts whoever said it (or whoever supports it) into the same area in my mind as those Bush=Hitler people.

In short it's people who lack the comprehension of their own beliefs and the lack of intelligence to cohesively stipulate their argument in the face of opposing viewpoints and facts that fall back on this as a crutch.

pan6467 · 09-13-2008, 10:00 AM

So, no one else finds ANY ad/slogan/etc from ANYONE offensive or desperate or great?

No one else would like to share the ad/slogan/etc that plays on their emotions?

Instead we have posts talking about the ad I posted, which was not what I wanted.

I vented my feelings on one, I explained what I was doing.

As for those who say I constantly put down Obama, how many Palin threads are there, "It's like some bad Disney movie" and so on.

Yet, this thread is NOT designed to focus on any ONE candidate, it's here for anyone in TFP to voice their opinion and feelings about an ad/slogan/etc used y one of the candidates.

Talk about an Obama ad that you think is underrated and will help his campaign, something from McCain that gets to you. Let's see your opinions, feelings and open up..... don't just attack the first thread and say "See you just like to attack Obama"..... That is not what this thread is about.

This is one reason I don't even listen to Obama people..... I'll say one thing offer them a chance to rebut or give their opinion and all they do is talk about how much I hate Obama. They offer no other opinions, they don't talk about their feelings, the emotional side of them that is deciding whom to vote for.... no it's all about that Obama attack they perceived they saw.

The above wasn't even really an attack on Obama.... it was an attack on a slogan that was started on the web and picked up and is now used by even people in elected office as support for Obama. I voiced an opinion on that.
-----Added 13/9/2008 at 02 : 05 : 32-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

That quote puts whoever said it (or whoever supports it) into the same area in my mind as those Bush=Hitler people.

In short it's people who lack the comprehension of their own beliefs and the lack of intelligence to cohesively stipulate their argument in the face of opposing viewpoints and facts that fall back on this as a crutch.

I agree with this. And it works both ways. Unfortunately, the Obama camp wants to constantly play victim and talk about how they are attacked.

I am no fan of Bush, but I do give the man credit in that when he was compared to Hitler and people were pushing all this hatred at him {myself included} he never truly acknowledged it and let it sway him from what message he had. I disagree with him on many levels but he has my respect in that area.

Halx · 09-13-2008, 10:15 AM

Dude, fuck the slogans. Focus on the issues.

host · 09-13-2008, 10:15 AM

pan, I'll offer you a deal....I'll try my damndest to get as worked up over your issue here, as you are....if you'll concede that this ....McCain choosing the obviously unqualified to be US Veep, Palin, just as Chief Kopp of Keani, AK, PD, was unqualfied to replace former Anchorage PD Chief, Monegan, as head of Alaska state Public safety dept.....

What do you think....do we have a deal.....say yes and I'll start posting my outrage, alongside ya, here!

ottopilot · 09-13-2008, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

pan, I'll offer you a deal....I'll try my damndest to get as worked up over your issue here, as you are....if you'll concede that this ....McCain choosing the obviously unqualified to be US Veep, Palin, just as Chief Kopp of Keani, AK, PD, was unqualfied to replace former Anchorage PD Chief, Monegan, as head of Alaska state Public safety dept.....

What do you think....do we have a deal.....say yes and I'll start posting my outrage, alongside ya, here!

host, I'll offer you a deal... I'll try my damnedest (correct spelling BTW) to stop laughing after reading your post if you concede that the DNC chose an even more obviously unqualified candidate to be POTUS.

The panic over Palin is amazing. What an entertaining distraction.

GonadWarrior · 09-13-2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

That quote puts whoever said it (or whoever supports it) into the same area in my mind as those Bush=Hitler people.

In short it's people who lack the comprehension of their own beliefs and the lack of intelligence to cohesively stipulate their argument in the face of opposing viewpoints and facts that fall back on this as a crutch.

And yet, the same people who spouted the Bush=Hitler nonsense take great umbrage when comparisons (the usual one is being a persuasive speaker) are made between Obama and Hitler.

To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, "Barack--you're no Jesus."

Seaver · 09-13-2008, 12:29 PM

Quote:

And yet, the same people who spouted the Bush=Hitler nonsense take great umbrage when comparisons (the usual one is being a persuasive speaker) are made between Obama and Hitler.

To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, "Barack--you're no Jesus."

There's actually been a comparison between Obama and Hitler? I've yet to see one.

host · 09-13-2008, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

host, I'll offer you a deal... I'll try my damnedest (correct spelling BTW) to stop laughing after reading your post if you concede that the DNC chose an even more obviously unqualified candidate to be POTUS.

The panic over Palin is amazing. What an entertaining distraction.

Did you even check, before you posted?
damndest - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

I posted more than once that Clinton was a much better nominee if democrats were committed to winning in november, but Obama is indeed, qualified to be the nominee. He graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law, and was editor of the Law Review. He gave up a lucrative opportunity to work at any of several prestigious law firms, to work as a lower paid communtiy organizer with limited direct career advancement opportunity, and he had as much or more political experience as Sen. John F. Kennedy had when he ran for president in 1960.

Sarah Palin is an unprecedented choice, in that her credentials make extremely mediocre credentials of Dan Qayle look better, in hindsight. He was a sitting US senator with a law degree from a lesser university.

I shouldn't have to explain to you that the competition Obama faced to get into Harvard, and into Columbia as an undergrad, for that matter, was immense, and he finished with high honors, at Harvard.

Palin has no such accomplishments, or comparable education, She succeeded amidst mixed reviews, in what was in comparison, due to such a small population and on the more popular side of the local political spectrum, that there can be no comparison between her limited credentials and even those of the much criticized as a lightweight, Dan Quayle......

Have you considered that your failure to accurately value the significance of the competition that Obama succeeded in, compared to Palin's accomplishments...i.e., as the article I linked to shows, her path was much more open to manipulation and propaganda as a strategy for success.... is part of the reason you support McCain's decision to choose her?

What you confuse as "upset reaction" to Palin, is a small part of a much greater reaction to your seeming endorsement....or hearty support, for wholesale mediocrity, because you discern no greater competence or achievement of one compared ot the next. It;s vexing to the rest of us and we are very disturbed by it.

Do you draw the line when it comes to the qualification of the pilot who flies you, or the surgeon who puts the knife to you....or is just one big fuck you to anyone who sees your opinions as unreasonable.....not well thought out?

Quote:

Harvard Law School

It goes without saying that admissions to Harvard Law requires that a student be prepared to face competition of the highest caliber, many of whom will have been out of college for several years. Annually, roughly 7,000 applications will be submitted for a little over 500 seats in the class. The acceptance rate is typically around 11%, with LSAT scores generally ranging from 170-175, and GPAs typically ranging between 3.80-3.95.

Here are recent stats for Liberty Universtity Law, a 4th tier school popular with US DOJ staff recruiters:

Quote:

Liberty University Law School! - College Discussion
I perused through their website for a couple minutes; it seems as if they pride themselves on being a "Christian" law school -- whatever that means.

Number of Applications: 752
Class Size: 164
Avg. LSAT: 154; Median LSAT: 153
Avg. GPA: 3.35; Median GPA: 3.3

http://www.regent.edu/acad/schlaw/admissions/
Mission Statement

Regent Law School seeks to admit students who take seriously the critical roles they will assume as future counselors, conciliators, defenders of the faith, effective client advocates and followers of Christ. ...

Quote:

Scandal puts spotlight on Christian law school - The Boston Globe

....Regent University School of Law, founded by televangelist Pat Robertson to provide "Christian leadership to change the world," has worked hard in its two-decade history to upgrade its reputation, fighting past years when a majority of its graduates couldn't pass the bar exam and leading up to recent victories over Ivy League teams in national law student competitions.

But even in its darker days, Regent has had no better friend than the Bush administration. Graduates of the law school have been among the most influential of the more than 150 Regent University alumni hired to federal government positions since President Bush took office in 2001, according to a university website.

One of those graduates is Monica Goodling , the former top aide to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales who is at the center of the storm over the firing of US attorneys. Goodling, who resigned on Friday, has become the face of Regent overnight -- and drawn a harsh spotlight to the administration's hiring of officials educated at smaller, conservative schools with sometimes marginal academic reputations.

Documents show that Goodling, who has asserted her Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination to avoid testifying before Congress, was one of a handful of officials overseeing the firings. She helped install Timothy Griffin , the Karl Rove aide and her former boss at the Republican National Committee, as a replacement US attorney in Arkansas.

Because Goodling graduated from Regent in 1999 and has scant prosecutorial experience, her qualifications to evaluate the performance of US attorneys have come under fire. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island, asked at a hearing: "Should we be concerned with the experience level of the people who are making these highly significant decisions?"

And across the political blogosphere, critics have held up Goodling, who declined to be interviewed, as a prime example of the Bush administration subordinating ability to politics in hiring decisions......

Tully Mars · 09-13-2008, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

There's actually been a comparison between Obama and Hitler? I've yet to see one.

YouTube - Anne Coulter on Hannity and Colmes , Obama = Hitler

GonadWarrior · 09-13-2008, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

There's actually been a comparison between Obama and Hitler? I've yet to see one.

They're everywhere. Here are two of many:

Quote:

Summary: On Glenn Beck, Ben Stein, while discussing Sen. Barack Obama's plan to deliver his speech accepting the Democratic presidential nomination at Denver's Invesco Field, stated that he did not "like the idea of Senator Obama giving his acceptance speech in front of 75,000 wildly cheering people." Stein further stated: "Seventy-five-thousand people at an outdoor sports palace, well, that's something the Fuehrer would have done."

Quote:

Certainly there are some similarities. Look at Hitler's campaign early on, it didn't blatantly support facism. The Nazis promised to clamp down on Big Business and end the class struggle (sounds familiar). It appealed to the young most, they thought they would fight the evil bourgeois and and establish a youth dominated culture. The uprising of the poor and beaten down, crushed by the evil corporations and industrialist (again, sounds familiar). Along with the youth idea, the NAZIs would use the slight of hand trick, accusing their opponents of facism; evil creatures who hoped only to increase the wealth gap and control the downtrodden proletariet. Hitler gained the young and the old alike with idealism.

You get the idea. There is a very familiar-looking picture, too, but it's on another computer, and I wasn't able to google it.

dc_dux · 09-13-2008, 02:04 PM

Gonad...thanks for pointing out the Glen Beck/Ben Stein summary.

I agree that the conservative talking heads should stop making Hitler-Obama comparisons!

Beck might also stop with the Obama is an anti_US secret Muslim!

uncle phil · 09-13-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Dude, fuck the slogans. Focus on the issues.

what he said...

dc_dux · 09-13-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle phil

what he said...

I would agree except that the McCain campaign has a different strategy:

"This election is not about issues," said Rick Davis. "This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates."

Their goal is to create that composite view by any means necessary. It is the classic Rove strategy dating back to his campaign for Bush for governor in Texas spreading rumors that his opponent was a lesbian..and Bush's campaign in 2000, spreading rumors about McCain and an illegitimate child of "color"...and his surreptitious connection to the Swift Boaters in 2004.

And I understand why..it has been successful for them in the past. The difference this year, from lessons learned from the past, is that the Obama campaign and surrogates are hitting back hard.

uncle phil · 09-13-2008, 03:57 PM

sad, isn't it?

dc_dux · 09-13-2008, 03:58 PM

sad...yes.

One of the burdens we bear with the freedom of speech we are guaranteed.

Tully Mars · 09-13-2008, 04:14 PM

Going to be even sadder if it works.

GonadWarrior · 09-13-2008, 05:13 PM

To be accurate, I thought it was absurd when it was being done to Bush, and I think it's absurd when done to Obama.

For more absurdity, note my new av. I seem to recall a similar one awhile back.

host · 09-13-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonadWarrior

To be accurate, I thought it was absurd when it was being done to Bush, and I think it's absurd when done to Obama.

For more absurdity, note my new av. I seem to recall a similar one awhile back.

GonadWarrior, your comments made such a profound impression, I've responded in a new thread.....

Seaver · 09-13-2008, 06:55 PM

I'm surprised host managed to hold it in that long before he puked up the laundry which has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

host · 09-13-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

I'm surprised host managed to hold it in that long before he puked up the laundry which has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

On edit....you've made me see the error of my ways, Seaver, I've moved the reply to GonadWarrior.....

pan6467 · 09-13-2008, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Dude, fuck the slogans. Focus on the issues.

Like these topics are?

"It's like a really bad Disney movie... " 60 posts 600 views

"Palin and rape victims" 27 posts 300 views

"Hypocrite (definition)" 14 and 241 here

"Is It True that President Bush has Been As Unfairly Criticized as Obama Has?" just started with 13 views.

Those are all issue driven? Seems to me if the topic is to beat down the GOP, Palin, McCain and Bush.... they are.

I open a thread that is supposed to be non partisan and based on people's opinion of what they see campaign ad/slogan/etc wise and I'm lambasted for how I supposedly want to trash Obama. I even stated I want others views on ads/slogans/etc that bother them.

So ok, if we are to stick solely to the issues then wtf are the above examples doing in TFP with so many views and replies?

OOO wait, it's because it started by trashing Obama. I have a feeling if I had I put something on here that slammed McCain, this thread would be taking a totally different slant.

host · 09-13-2008, 10:32 PM

-----Added 14/9/2008 at 02 : 34 : 28-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Like these topics are?

"It's like a really bad Disney movie... " 60 posts 600 views

"Palin and rape victims" 27 posts 300 views

"Hypocrite (definition)" 14 and 241 here

"Is It True that President Bush has Been As Unfairly Criticized as Obama Has?" just started with 13 views.

Those are all issue driven? Seems to me if the topic is to beat down the GOP, Palin, McCain and Bush.... they are.

I open a thread that is supposed to be non partisan and based on people's opinion of what they see campaign ad/slogan/etc wise and I'm lambasted for how I supposedly want to trash Obama. I even stated I want others views on ads/slogans/etc that bother them.

So ok, if we are to stick solely to the issues then wtf are the above examples doing in TFP with so many views and replies?

OOO wait, it's because it started by trashing Obama. I have a feeling if I had I put something on here that slammed McCain, this thread would be taking a totally different slant.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...ll-rights.html 123 posts and 2402 views...

Whaddya talking about, pan? ,,,,,and, if the content in the OP of my new thread,
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...obama-has.html

isn't facts supporting issues, what is it?

jorgelito · 09-14-2008, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Like these topics are?

"It's like a really bad Disney movie... " 60 posts 600 views

"Palin and rape victims" 27 posts 300 views

"Hypocrite (definition)" 14 and 241 here

"Is It True that President Bush has Been As Unfairly Criticized as Obama Has?" just started with 13 views.

Those are all issue driven? Seems to me if the topic is to beat down the GOP, Palin, McCain and Bush.... they are.

I open a thread that is supposed to be non partisan and based on people's opinion of what they see campaign ad/slogan/etc wise and I'm lambasted for how I supposedly want to trash Obama. I even stated I want others views on ads/slogans/etc that bother them.

So ok, if we are to stick solely to the issues then wtf are the above examples doing in TFP with so many views and replies?

OOO wait, it's because it started by trashing Obama. I have a feeling if I had I put something on here that slammed McCain, this thread would be taking a totally different slant.

I understand where you are coming from Pan.

roachboy · 09-14-2008, 03:39 AM

speaking for myself, pan, it's simpler than that:

the strategy of the mc-cain campaign appears to be ultra-rove---say anything anything at all, true or not, in adverts, and see what sticks. flood the airwaves with bullshit and see what sticks. that's it. that's all the campaign has.

the responses here have not been as you characterize them, pan: the division is between those who see this as the republican campaign strategy and those who see it as posing questions worth debating.

when you pile up the thread titles that have been put up since the rnc about palin, you omit the fact that the campaign strategy became clear about about the same time, that there has been something of a collective learning curve about that strategy, etc.

but hey, why think about that when it's so much easier for a new conservative to opt for one of the central (apparent) motivations behind the drift right, which is the sense of being-victimized?

it's kinda funny to see though: this strategy is putting more conservative folk in an awkward position--if they defend the strategy, the make concessions about the integrity of the infotainment that is its content and so begin to loose ground to those who reject the strategy---if they act like there is no strategy, they cannot defend their candidate's campaign at all without appearing to be as---um----television-faithful as the campaign assumes conservatives to be.

so i wonder how representative your position is of conservative-types at this point---unable to admit to yourself why you dislike obama, desparately searching for a rationale, finding the republican personality-infotainment campaign more promising than thinking about issues as a means toward that end, you decide to put aside the nature of the m-p campaign and act as though all this horseshit--the adverts, the memes---were adequate as a basis for making a political decision.

all this because i don't think you want to say what really bothers you about obama.
and i'm not sure what that is, either.
but whatever it is, this sure seems a long way around.
i wonder how big the segment of the television audience is in this position.

dc_dux · 09-14-2008, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

I understand where you are coming from Pan.

pan...I understand your attempt to rationalize your thread as well. TFP has other inane threads....so there!

IMO, its even more amusing since your initial post has little to do with "campaign "slogans" or catch phrases or ads..."

The one line comment you found to be so upsetting and felt the need to start a thread about was not a "campaign slogan, catch phrase or ad" that had any association with the Obama campaign. It was a cheeky response by a guy not associated with the campaign to an earlier comment by McCain/Palin disparaging community service.

But, hey it played right into your hand to continue to find non-issue related ways to trash Obama.

-----Added 14/9/2008 at 07 : 49 : 26-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

the strategy of the mc-cain campaign appears to be ultra-rove---say anything anything at all, true or not, in adverts, and see what sticks. flood the airwaves with bullshit and see what sticks. that's it. that's all the campaign has.
es conservatives to be.

rb...I dont expect the McCain supporters or Obama haters here to acknowledge the fact that it is the McCain strategy that is driving the campaign into the gutter by creating "composite views of the candidates" rather than addressing the issues.

pan6467 · 09-14-2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

speaking for myself, pan, it's simpler than that:

the strategy of the mc-cain campaign appears to be ultra-rove---say anything anything at all, true or not, in adverts, and see what sticks. flood the airwaves with bullshit and see what sticks. that's it. that's all the campaign has.

the responses here have not been as you characterize them, pan: the division is between those who see this as the republican campaign strategy and those who see it as posing questions worth debating.

when you pile up the thread titles that have been put up since the rnc about palin, you omit the fact that the campaign strategy became clear about about the same time, that there has been something of a collective learning curve about that strategy, etc.

but hey, why think about that when it's so much easier for a new conservative to opt for one of the central (apparent) motivations behind the drift right, which is the sense of being-victimized?

it's kinda funny to see though: this strategy is putting more conservative folk in an awkward position--if they defend the strategy, the make concessions about the integrity of the infotainment that is its content and so begin to loose ground to those who reject the strategy---if they act like there is no strategy, they cannot defend their candidate's campaign at all without appearing to be as---um----television-faithful as the campaign assumes conservatives to be.

See now that is what this thread is about. Talk about the ads, slogans etc. give opinionwhat you think about them. Even tho you haven't given 1 example and rather just put everything McCain into one basket, it's cool.

See opinion means you have to think for yourself.... hopefully. Telling how you feel about something without having to be told how you feel. That is what I want to see here. Not the same pablum and bs spewed over and over.

Quote:

so i wonder how representative your position is of conservative-types at this point---unable to admit to yourself why you dislike obama, desparately searching for a rationale, finding the republican personality-infotainment campaign more promising than thinking about issues as a means toward that end, you decide to put aside the nature of the m-p campaign and act as though all this horseshit--the adverts, the memes---were adequate as a basis for making a political decision.

all this because i don't think you want to say what really bothers you about obama.
and i'm not sure what that is, either.
but whatever it is, this sure seems a long way around.
i wonder how big the segment of the television audience is in this position.

But then you include this, an attack on me. I don't have to tell anyone my reason for dislike of Obama, and that is not what this thread is about.

But if you look deep within the threads of the past you will see my many reasons. Or if you like and want, you can talk to me 1 on 1, or open a new thread about why one dislikes a candidate, I will be more than happy to share.

See right now I started this thread with a legitimate beef and opinion on a slogan that has been used by many supporters of a candidate. I aired my opinion and called it an act of desperation. I offered ANYONE the chance to do the same. Instead.... I was told I was not focused on the issues.... which I am, but there are enough threads for that. To me, there are no non partisan threads that ask for opinion of this type. Whether you agree, disagree or don't give a damn..... slogans, ads, etc can win or lose an election. It has been shown many many many times over in the history of this country. The 2 parties and the issues lock in a certain percentage of voters.... the winning percentage of voters is determined by the candidate's charisma, ads, slogans, the way they carry themselves, how they appear, how they speak and so on. There was a Johnson ad in 1964, showing a nuclear bomb going off and that his opponent may do the unthinkable.... that is an example of an ad that turned an election.

Was it a desperate move or genius at the time? I think it was desperate but it sure as Hell worked.

This is to call bs or applaud an ad you dislike or like. Simple as that. Sorry if you think or believe that I have some other deep hidden agendas here.... I don't.

dc_dux · 09-14-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

See right now I started this thread with a legitimate beef and opinion on a slogan that has been used by many supporters of a candidate.

pan...here is why I think you are being disingenuous or dishonest.

The comment you found so offensive was made by one person (a member of Congress). It was not an Obama campaign slogan...it was not part of an ad...it was one guy making a comment in response to a smug commitment by both McCain and Palin about Obama's public service. Was it distasteful? perhaps to some....Was it a "campaign" tactic by Obama....not by any reasonable standard.

Yet you make a dubious unsupportable claim..."that the Obama campaign and supporters seem to like throwing that around." Who is throwing it around...other than Limbaugh, Fox, the right wing blogs...oh...and you!

It would be like saying the McCain campaign "likes throwing around" these ignorant comment by Republican Congressman Steve King or Republican Congressman Lynn Westmoreland:

Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) said that Obama's middle name – Hussein – is relevant to the public discourse surrounding his candidacy, saying in March that if Obama were elected, "Then the radical Islamists, the al Qaeda, the radical Islamists and their supporters, will be dancing in the streets in greater numbers than they did on Sept. 11 because they will declare victory in this War on Terror.

Westmoreland was discussing vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin's speech with reporters outside the House chamber and was asked to compare her with Michelle Obama. "Just from what little I’ve seen of her and Mr. Obama, Sen. Obama, they're a member of an elitist-class individual that thinks that they're uppity," Westmoreland said.

Would you hold the McCain campaign accountable in the same manner you are holding the comment by Cong. Cohen against Obama?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

This is to call bs or applaud an ad you dislike or like. Simple as that. Sorry if you think or believe that I have some other deep hidden agendas here.... I don't.

The comment you found so offensive was not an ad or a campaign slogan....comparing an offhand remark by someone not associated with the campaign to an official ad (the LBJ ad) is also disingenuous or dishonest.

If you want to have a discussion about ads and campaign slogans as you suggest.....then stick to ads and campaign slogans! Make sense?

roachboy · 09-14-2008, 10:15 AM

on the other hand, pan, it is in no way surprising that folk who see in the barrage of meaningless personal attacks staged as adverts, in the barrage of false accusations, distortions, etc., emanating largely from the m-p campaign an aspect of a strategy would have difficulty figuring out how it is possible for other folk to not see an aspect of a strategy in it, but instead see in this barrage of memes something meaningful independently of a strategy.

one side of this debate sees the strategy as such--and that strategy is to avoid debate about issues, avoid being-situated in contemporary reality at all---this because contemporary reality as other people know about it associates m-p with the bush administration, and the campaign has made the obvious choice that this association is for them fatal. the other, including yourself apparently, sees in this barrage an actually viable source of information.

now if this is true, that the kind of material you are asking about is meaningful in the context of that strategy, then it is hardly plausible to expect that it will also be understood as meaningful independently of that strategy. so you see stuff about obama or mc-cain---i see expressions of a cynical and well-funded campaign designed to gut the political by reducing debate to gossip.

now the fact of this move on the part of the m-p campaign is a matter of public record.
so there's no way around it.

i think in this case that you are wrong in your assumptions, wrong in your approach to this barrage of non-information, this non-politics. and i don't see this as a matter of opinion. you know that is the strategy, you know the explanation for it--but you ignore it. that is an error. that is not opinion.

if there's a problem here, that's it: it's not got anything to do with the interpretation you floated earlier, nothing to do with your whinging about attacking obama. it has to do with you being simply, fundamentally, wrong in your interpretation of the infotainment floated by the campaign.

pan6467 · 09-14-2008, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

pan...here is why I think you are being disingenuous or dishonest.

The comment you found so offensive was made by one person (a member of Congress). It was not an Obama campaign slogan...it was not part of an ad...it was one guy making a comment in response to a smug commitment by both McCain and Palin about Obama's public service. Was it distasteful? perhaps to some....Was it a "campaign" tactic by Obama....not by any reasonable standard.

Yet you make a dubious unsupportable claim..."that the Obama campaign and supporters seem to like throwing that around." Who is throwing it around...other than Limbaugh, Fox, the right wing blogs...oh...and you!

It would be like saying the McCain campaign "likes throwing around" these ignorant comment by Republican Congressman Steve King or Republican Congressman Lynn Westmoreland:

Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) said that Obama's middle name – Hussein – is relevant to the public discourse surrounding his candidacy, saying in March that if Obama were elected, "Then the radical Islamists, the al Qaeda, the radical Islamists and their supporters, will be dancing in the streets in greater numbers than they did on Sept. 11 because they will declare victory in this War on Terror.

Westmoreland was discussing vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin's speech with reporters outside the House chamber and was asked to compare her with Michelle Obama. "Just from what little I’ve seen of her and Mr. Obama, Sen. Obama, they're a member of an elitist-class individual that thinks that they're uppity," Westmoreland said.

Would you hold the McCain campaign accountable in the same manner you are holding the comment by Cong. Cohen against Obama?

The comment you found so offensive was not an ad or a campaign slogan....comparing an offhand remark by someone not associated with the campaign to an official ad (the LBJ ad) is also disingenuous or dishonest.

If you want to have a discussion about ads and campaign slogans as you suggest.....then stick to ads and campaign slogans! Make sense?

Really, do I need to post the Susan Sarandon or Donna Brazile from CNN, or the US Rep. from Tennessee, quote with link? Or the links of those who "unofficially" are saying it?

It is something that is very much out there and being used.

But again..... why not post your opinion on an ad/slogan/etc that bothers you?

Why keep attacking my one post and opinion?

I am done trying to justify myself. Those who want to believe what they want to believe will. I should not have to justify my opinions or the reason I start a thread.

Was there this mass cry for any of the above examples I gave in an earlier post to "move on to the issues".... "How biased and defend why you created that post"..... "McCain/Bush/GOP hater, you just started the thread to dump on McCain/Bush/GOP". No.

And again, I am calling for people of BOTH sides to post opinions on ads/slogans/etc they like or dislike. Yet, I have not seen anything but attacks on my motive for starting this thread. So truly, who is being the disingenuous one? Who is trying to make mountains out of molehills? Who just posted his opinion and all he asked was that others do the same on ads/slogans/etc that they like or dislike?

Amazing...... but not to be unexpected from people who want to see hidden agendas, conspiracies and so on.

Poppinjay · 09-15-2008, 05:13 AM

Pan, vote for who you want to vote, but don't expect any success in getting others to follow you in your descent to the party of anti-abortion, war, "I got mine", and the wide stance argument.

Necrosis · 09-15-2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

Pan, vote for who you want to vote, but don't expect any success in getting others to follow you in your descent to the party of anti-abortion, war, "I got mine", and the wide stance argument.

On this forum, anyway. The polls are telling a different story, although many would disagree with your characterization.

Some smart staffer is going to take Obama's dumb commercial about John McCain not doing e-mail, and turn it around. As most know, McCain's war injuries prevent him from typing.

A just response would be to show a serviceman who lost a leg, and have him tell Obama, "Hey, congratulations, you can play basketball better than I can!"

Politics in general have descended into the abyss. The only bright spot in years has been the news that Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg are actually good personal friends. We might actually make some progress if we returned to the days when disagreeing individuals could remain civil.

09-12-2008, 09:54 AM	#1 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Desperate move or good for the campaign??? First, this is to bring out campaign "slogans" or catch phrases or ads etc.... and state your opinion on such. Is it helping your candidate or hurting? Was it a good move or is it going to bite the ass of your opponent? Mine is the whole Jesus was a community organizer, Pontius Pilot was a governor, I find it pathetic that the Obama campaign and supporters seem to like throwing that around. How dare people try to compare Obama to Jesus, I think it tries to prey on one's faith and beliefs but it's backfiring and they can't or won't stop it. I'm not exactly a Christian, but I do follow his teachings to the best of my ability and ego.... and I find this an act of desperation trying to get Christian votes. It takes focus off issues and shows arrogance. I just can't believe someone running for president would step this low. This is truly insane. Has our country stepped this low? And ..... ahem..... Obama is NOT a community organizer any longer, he is a Senator and very much a part of the government. I'd be interested to see what Obama truly did as a community organizer... did he turn water into wine? I find it ironic that Obama's people dislike the term Obama the Messiah..... but will support this. Desperate move. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

09-12-2008, 10:02 AM	#2 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	why are you focused on this, pan? there are substantive positions on real issues that separate the two presidential candidates and which constitute the actual grounds for making a rational decision as to who to vote for. this is television idiocy, the sort of stuff geared at people who are naive enough to conflate questions of image with matters of position. i say this despite my fascination with signifiers and how they are constructed. in this case, you have a not terribly interesting rejoinder to the republican attacks on the whole idea of community organizing in the context of their convention. i think that advert nothing more than a lob in the direction of christian voters, which constitutes a FAR wider swatch of the population than the far-right evangelicals would have one think, given that they like to arrogate to themselves a monopoly on the term, as if they are "real" and everyone else who happens to believe the same basic things but not in the same way are "Other" (the old canard about catholics not being christian comes to mind--i'm sure you know the drill). i don't think it particularly interesting, i don't think it particularly serious and i certainly don't think that tracking individual commericals is a good way to arrive at anything like a coherent assessment of the tactical--not to mention strategic--moves on the part of either campaign. so why are you focused on this stuff, apart from the fact that for whatever reason you've decided you don't like the obama you imagine obama to be. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-12-2008, 10:09 AM	#3 (permalink)
jewels Eponymous Location: Central Central Florida	Move on. This was one congressman's answer to the sarcastic "only a community organizer" comments about Obama. It was good enough for Jesus, was the sentiment. And he added a little, by the way, Pontius Pilate was a governor, implying that the title doesn't tell much about the person. Just goes to show you can find what you're looking for if you look hard enough. Sheesh. When are we going to argue lipstick? __________________ We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess. Mark Twain

09-12-2008, 10:18 AM	#6 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	well, first off if i had thought the thread a problem rather than finding it to be something of a mystery, i'd have acted on it in mod-mode. and alot of threads address this---one way or another almost every election-relation thread touches on adverts one way or another--but there's a political question involved with how much attention to pay to this register itself. you have to know that, and you have to have expected that folk would be saying "enough of this." so they're saying "enough of this." personally, i think the mc-cain people are in serious trouble if folk start turning off the adverts. but that's another matter. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-12-2008, 10:19 AM	#7 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	pan...I do agreee with part of your title...."desperate" but in a very calculated way. I think it is a desperate (and calculated) attempt by the McCain camp to move the discussion as far away from the issues as possible. "This election is not about issues," said Rick Davis. "This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates." It is at the base of the Rick Davis (campaign manager)/Steve Scmidt (Rove protegee and senior adviser to campaign) campaign strategy for McCain. Your OP feeds right into that strategy...good work! added: I deleted the "unofficial" ad I had posted above since that would be playing into that strategy as well. I left the offical McCain ad up there because, IMO, that is one for which McCain should be held accountable. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 09-12-2008 at 10:45 AM..

09-12-2008, 04:45 PM	#9 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	I don't watch commercials (MythTV automatically takes them out), and I'll watch the debates to see where they stand on the issues and who I think will do a better job.

09-12-2008, 06:00 PM	#10 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	That quote puts whoever said it (or whoever supports it) into the same area in my mind as those Bush=Hitler people. In short it's people who lack the comprehension of their own beliefs and the lack of intelligence to cohesively stipulate their argument in the face of opposing viewpoints and facts that fall back on this as a crutch. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

09-13-2008, 10:15 AM	#12 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Dude, fuck the slogans. Focus on the issues. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

09-13-2008, 10:15 AM	#13 (permalink)
host Banned	pan, I'll offer you a deal....I'll try my damndest to get as worked up over your issue here, as you are....if you'll concede that this ....McCain choosing the obviously unqualified to be US Veep, Palin, just as Chief Kopp of Keani, AK, PD, was unqualfied to replace former Anchorage PD Chief, Monegan, as head of Alaska state Public safety dept..... What do you think....do we have a deal.....say yes and I'll start posting my outrage, alongside ya, here!

09-13-2008, 02:04 PM	#20 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	Gonad...thanks for pointing out the Glen Beck/Ben Stein summary. I agree that the conservative talking heads should stop making Hitler-Obama comparisons! Beck might also stop with the Obama is an anti_US secret Muslim! __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

09-13-2008, 03:57 PM	#23 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	sad, isn't it? __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

09-13-2008, 03:58 PM	#24 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	sad...yes. One of the burdens we bear with the freedom of speech we are guaranteed. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

09-13-2008, 04:14 PM	#25 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	Going to be even sadder if it works. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

09-13-2008, 05:13 PM	#26 (permalink)
GonadWarrior Upright	To be accurate, I thought it was absurd when it was being done to Bush, and I think it's absurd when done to Obama. For more absurdity, note my new av. I seem to recall a similar one awhile back.

09-13-2008, 06:55 PM	#28 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	I'm surprised host managed to hold it in that long before he puked up the laundry which has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

09-14-2008, 03:39 AM	#33 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	speaking for myself, pan, it's simpler than that: the strategy of the mc-cain campaign appears to be ultra-rove---say anything anything at all, true or not, in adverts, and see what sticks. flood the airwaves with bullshit and see what sticks. that's it. that's all the campaign has. the responses here have not been as you characterize them, pan: the division is between those who see this as the republican campaign strategy and those who see it as posing questions worth debating. when you pile up the thread titles that have been put up since the rnc about palin, you omit the fact that the campaign strategy became clear about about the same time, that there has been something of a collective learning curve about that strategy, etc. but hey, why think about that when it's so much easier for a new conservative to opt for one of the central (apparent) motivations behind the drift right, which is the sense of being-victimized? it's kinda funny to see though: this strategy is putting more conservative folk in an awkward position--if they defend the strategy, the make concessions about the integrity of the infotainment that is its content and so begin to loose ground to those who reject the strategy---if they act like there is no strategy, they cannot defend their candidate's campaign at all without appearing to be as---um----television-faithful as the campaign assumes conservatives to be. so i wonder how representative your position is of conservative-types at this point---unable to admit to yourself why you dislike obama, desparately searching for a rationale, finding the republican personality-infotainment campaign more promising than thinking about issues as a means toward that end, you decide to put aside the nature of the m-p campaign and act as though all this horseshit--the adverts, the memes---were adequate as a basis for making a political decision. all this because i don't think you want to say what really bothers you about obama. and i'm not sure what that is, either. but whatever it is, this sure seems a long way around. i wonder how big the segment of the television audience is in this position. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-14-2008, 10:15 AM	#37 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	on the other hand, pan, it is in no way surprising that folk who see in the barrage of meaningless personal attacks staged as adverts, in the barrage of false accusations, distortions, etc., emanating largely from the m-p campaign an aspect of a strategy would have difficulty figuring out how it is possible for other folk to not see an aspect of a strategy in it, but instead see in this barrage of memes something meaningful independently of a strategy. one side of this debate sees the strategy as such--and that strategy is to avoid debate about issues, avoid being-situated in contemporary reality at all---this because contemporary reality as other people know about it associates m-p with the bush administration, and the campaign has made the obvious choice that this association is for them fatal. the other, including yourself apparently, sees in this barrage an actually viable source of information. now if this is true, that the kind of material you are asking about is meaningful in the context of that strategy, then it is hardly plausible to expect that it will also be understood as meaningful independently of that strategy. so you see stuff about obama or mc-cain---i see expressions of a cynical and well-funded campaign designed to gut the political by reducing debate to gossip. now the fact of this move on the part of the m-p campaign is a matter of public record. so there's no way around it. i think in this case that you are wrong in your assumptions, wrong in your approach to this barrage of non-information, this non-politics. and i don't see this as a matter of opinion. you know that is the strategy, you know the explanation for it--but you ignore it. that is an error. that is not opinion. if there's a problem here, that's it: it's not got anything to do with the interpretation you floated earlier, nothing to do with your whinging about attacking obama. it has to do with you being simply, fundamentally, wrong in your interpretation of the infotainment floated by the campaign. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-15-2008, 05:13 AM	#39 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	Pan, vote for who you want to vote, but don't expect any success in getting others to follow you in your descent to the party of anti-abortion, war, "I got mine", and the wide stance argument. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet