dksuddeth

http://kfyi.com/pages/local_news.htm...rticle=3875223

well, i guess this will be counted as just one of dozens of 'isolated' incidents, right?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

xepherys

I lived in PHX for a few years and hadn't heard of anything like this before. What other dozen or so incidents like this have occurred?

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dksuddeth

not saying dozens HAVE occurred. I'm wondering that if more events like this occur, will they still be just isolated instances.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Baraka_Guru

What characteristics are you most concerned with? To determine whether the events are isolated will depend on the ability to formulate patterns of behaviour and circumstances.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dc_dux

One cop makes an unsubstantiated claim on an anti-immigration radio show that the perps were Mexican military and we're supposed to believe it's part of a wider invasion plan?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

roachboy

a co-ordinated yet surreptitious invasion by the mexican army?

let's say for a minute that this is true. would 5 guys operating in total secrecy, without the slightest trace of outside support and with no particular objective either in mind or really imaginable constitute an invasion force for a country the size of the united states?

would this mean that if i piled 6 of my friends into a couple of cars and drove to mexico city in order to wander around that we could also be understood as invading mexico?

i am thinking about invading a nearby museum.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dc_dux

Yes, dk...we need better border enforcement as a foundation for broad immigration reform...but lets keep it in perspective, please.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

Yes, I'm sure our biggest threat is the Mexican military.

Baraka_Guru

Me too. It's a long weekend here. We'll probably go to the Royal Ontario Museum.

* * * * *

How many steps is this thread away from being recategorized under Tiltled Paranoia?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

robot_parade

Oh noes! We're being invaded by brown people!

I mean, come on. Even if this story is true, it means that a criminal organization paid some people to have someone murdered. This is shocking and unnaceptable, but we have ways of dealing with this. It doesn't mean we're being invaded, or that we need to build a huge fence to keep out the mexicans. We need to deal with criminals as criminals, and immigrants as immigrants.

roachboy

on classification: i'm in a particularly anarchist mood this morning, so everything depends on the response to the question re. what constitutes an invasion.

i'm off to a "folk art" museyroom to look at authenticity.
everything, everywhere is equivalent as authentic.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

guyy

Why?

frontieres = repression

dc_dux

Why?

Because it is the role of the federal government to protect the nation's borders.

Just as it was the role of the federal government during earlier waves of immigration when most immigrants were processed through Ellis Island (or similar disembarking points).

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

That "golden door" should always remain open to the poor and huddled masses (as well as the wealthy and elite), but in a manner that protects the security and welfare of the citizens within.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

uncle phil

it's freakin' phoenix...

like, it's a border site?

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

The_Dunedan

The thing to consider here is the "Zeta factor."

"Zeta" is the mexican nickname for one of several groups composed of ex- and current members of the Mexican army known for doing heavy muscle work for the various drug cartels operating on Mexico's northern and southern borders. They're "broken arrows," corrupted soldiers doing "merc work" on the side. Several incidents of these nasties crossing into the U.S. with armed vehicles have been recorded, as have automatic-weapons fire directed with some skill against Border Patrol personnel and vehicles.

Are they technically Mexican military? Yes. Are they acting on -orders- from the Mexican army? No. It's just your basic Latin American death-squad killing for hire. They're dangerous as Hell, but nothing official.

robot_parade

I agree with the intent, 100%. However, I don't agree with the current implementation - some sort of giant fence, wall, etc.

Fwiw, here's what I think we should do:

o Make it easy for companies to tell if someone has a legal right to work in the US.
- The system needs to be free, easy, accurate, and subject to oversight and
challenge.
For example:
Company: Sorry, we can't hire you because you don't have the right to work here.
Brown person: Yes I do! Here's my (proof of citizenship, green card, work visa).
The Fed: Oh, sorry, our bad. We'll fix our database.
Company: Ok, you're in.
Brown person: Yah! Picking strawberries at minimum wage!
White guy: Shit, I'm glad I don't have to do that crap.
Brown person: Are you kidding? This is enough to feed my family back home.
White guy: Better you than me. I'm going to work at McDonald's.

o Make the penelty for a company knowingly hiring someone who doesn't have the legal right to work in the US *severe*.
Company exec 1: I saved us thousands of dollars by hiring brown people, giving them no benefits, and paying them less than minimum wage!
The Fed: Pay us $10 gazillion
Company CEO: Exec #1, you're fired!
Company exec 1: Aw, shit!

o Make it relatively easy for brown people to have a transitional status of some sort.
Brown person: ("I'm just looking for a better life for my family"/"My parents brought me over the border when I was 3. I'm not a citizen, but this is the only culture I've ever known"), and ("This company will hire me/"this college will accept me")
Company/College: Yes. We need/want this brown person.
The Fed: For how long?
Company/College: At least X years
The Fed: Is the position also open to people who already have the right to work here with the same salary and benefits?
Company/College: Yes!
The Fed: Ok, it's cool with us. This country was built on immigrants, and stuff. Here's a work/school visa for Brown Person #313231 for X years at your company/college.
Company/College: All right!
Brown person: Yah!

guyy

From what exactly? And where do people get the idea that the US doesn't protect it's borders?

I don't know how many borders you cross, but US border is taken very seriously. The border is a militarised, no-rights zone like Guantanamo, or Afghanistan, or a gulag ship. Even the areas near the border are special. There are checkpoints & pullovers and other such bullshit on the roads around the Canadian border. I assume it's only worse near Mexico. If you fly in from overseas, you now have to give fingerprints when you arrive and when you leave. Creepy. (There's always payback too. Brazil fingerprints & photographs Americans. Japan started fingerprinting every foreigner who lands there. Lovely. )

This kind of crap doesn't protect the rights of those within the borders. They wouldn't lift a finger to protect you; they do it to protect themselves. Increased border security means more insecurity for the people who inevitably slip through and that means they can be exploited all the more. Yippee. You can even make Tejanos and people who just look they come from the wrong side of the border more insecure and therefore more exploitable. And lower wages and fewer rights for them mean lower wages and fewer rights for you.


Looking at a bigger picture, while capital and commodities move quite freely across borders, labour mobility is more and more restricted. It's fairly obvious that the assymetry of mobility has greatly eroded worker power.

dc_dux

guyy....I agree with you that immigration is a win-win.

It makes the country stronger, both economically and socially, and it provides an opportunity for a better quality of life for the immigrant.

IF, it is done legally and in a controlled manner, without it being significantly limited or restricted.

And while we are at it, most of the 12+ million illegal immigrants here should be given a path to citizenship.

Illegal immigrants suffer far more abuse and exploitation and have far less "worker power" when they are limited to the lowest paying jobs because they dont have the documentation required for economic mobility.

And, the notion that commodities move freely across borders is absurd. Try importing meat, fruits and vegetables, other food and organic products, domestic animals (pets), etc.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

MSD

I remember video from border patrol cams showing a Mexican Army vehicle providing covering fire against US border patrol for drug runners moving goods across the border.

There is no invasion, but we have been attacked, and foreign organized crime clearly poses a threat to our border security.

Rekna

can we move this to Tilted Paranoia?

MSD

It's a very leading title, but I'm not going to move it if it's a discussion of legitimate threats to border security with documented sources.

Sun Tzu

Approximately 20 million people here illegally. 10,000 entering the country daily- illegally ---

There is an invasion. Not in the form of Atilla the Hun or Ghengis Khan, but multitudes crossing in a manner they shouldn't be. Undocumented immigrants as the political correct titled evolved; are intruduers. Perhaps if the US didnt have a legal manner to enter and apply for citizenship things may be different. What do you say to the people that worked hard to meet the requirements and legally immigrated the right way?

A US GAO study found in a study population of 55,322 illegal aliens incarcerated, on average, each had been arrested 8 times for a total arrest figure of at least 459,614 times. If that isn't astounding enough, these 55,322 illegals in the study population had been arrested for committing 700,000 criminal offenses, which averages 13 crimes per illegal alien. So, each illegal alien incarcerated had been arrested 8 times and had committed at least 13 crimes.

According to the U.S. Bureau of Prisons, in 2005, 25% of prisoners in federal prisons were illegal aliens, and 4% were legal aliens. This proportion has not gone down; if anything, it has gone up markedly. Bill O'Reilly is on record more recently stating that illegal aliens account for 32% of the federal and state prison population.

According to the well-respected U.S. Center for Immigration Studies (www.cis.org), incarcerated convicted illegal aliens make up 29 percent of federal, state and local prisons at a cost of more than $1.6 billion annually. This number doubles when the costs for apprehension, the justice system, public defenders, interpreters, prosecutors and the courts add to the total.

Illegals represent about 8 percent of Arizona's population and the Arizona Department of Corrections reports that Mexican nationals make up 12 percent of the state's 37,200-inmate prison population.

Undocumented aliens, mostly from Mexico and Central America, now total 1953 inmates in the Maricopa County Sheriff’s jail system. That number represents 21 percent of the overall inmate population of men and women housed in the nation’s third largest jail system. Sheriff Joe Arpaio says that is just small part of the story about those incarcerated in his jails. He says that recent figures show that serious crime (class four felonies and above) are committed substantially by illegal aliens. During two recent surveys, between 27 and 53 percent of all suspects booked into the jail on serious felonies had immigration holds placed on them. The vast majority of those with holds were in the United States illegally. According to the Sheriff’s figures, illegal alien inmate population numbers have grown steadily in Arizona and other border states over the last several years. In March 2005, the illegal alien population in Arpaio’s jails totaled approximately 700.

http://www.borderfirereport.net/late...and-crime.html

It's not about stopping immigration, it is about illegal immigration. Regardless if a person crossed yesterday or twenty years ago; if they did it illegally, they are breaking the law. If the law is something outdated, or the general public wants open borders- then form grassroots movements to abolish Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code.


Its probably a good thing there aren't Saudi cells learning to speak fluent Spanish.







However, from another perspective it may not be invasion at all.


Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPPNA)
We, the elected leaders of Canada, Mexico, and the United States, have met in Texas to announce the establishment of the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America.
Over the past decade, our three nations have taken important steps to expand economic opportunity for our people and to create the most vibrant and dynamic trade relationship in the world. Since September 11 2001, we have also taken significant new steps to address the threat of terrorism and to enhance the security of our people.
But much still remains to be done. In a rapidly changing world, we must develop new avenues of cooperation that will make our open societies safer and more secure, our businesses more competitive, and our economies more resilient.
Our Partnership will accomplish these objectives through a trilateral effort to increase the security, prosperity, and quality of life of our citizens. This work will be based on the principle that our security and prosperity are mutually dependent and complementary, and will reflect our shared belief in freedom, economic opportunity, and strong democratic values and institutions. It will also help consolidate our efforts within a North American framework, to meet security and economic challenges, and promote the full potential of our people, by reducing regional disparities and increasing opportunities for all.
Our Partnership is committed to achieving outstanding results in order to enhance the security and well-being of our people. The Partnership is trilateral in concept; while allowing any two countries to move forward on an issue, it will create a path for the third to join later.
Advancing our Common Security
We will establish a common approach to security to protect North America from external threats, prevent and respond to threats within North America, and further streamline the secure and efficient movement of legitimate, low-risk traffic across our shared borders. As part of our efforts, we will:
• Implement common border security and bio-protection strategies;
• Enhance critical infrastructure protection, and implement a common approach to emergency response;
• Implement improvements in aviation and maritime security, combat transnational threats, and enhance intelligence partnerships; and
• Implement a border facilitation strategy to build capacity and improve the legitimate flow of people and cargo across our shared borders.
Advancing our Common Prosperity
We will work to enhance North American competitiveness and improve the quality of life of our people. Among other things, we will:
• Improve productivity through regulatory cooperation to generate growth, while maintaining high standards for health and safety;
• Promote sectoral collaboration in energy, transportation, financial services, technology, and other areas to facilitate business; and invest in our people;
• Reduce the costs of trade through the efficient movement of goods and people; and
• Enhance the preservation of our environment, create a safer and more reliable food supply while facilitating agricultural trade, and protect our people from disease.
Next Steps
We will establish working parties led by our ministers and secretaries that will consult with stakeholders in our respective countries. These working parties will respond to the priorities of our people and our businesses, and will set specific, measurable, and achievable goals. They will outline concrete steps that our governments can take to meet these goals, and set dates that will ensure the continuous achievement of results.
Within 90 days, ministers will present their initial report after which, the working parties will submit six-monthly reports. Because the Partnership will be an ongoing process of cooperation, new items will be added to the work agenda by mutual agreement as circumstances warrant.
Through this Partnership, we will ensure that North America remains the most economically dynamic region in the world and a secure home for our people in this and future generations.
Joint Statement by President Bush, President Fox, and Prime Minister Martin, Waco, Texas, publixhed by Mexidata, March 23, 2005
http://www.theamericanresistance.com...2005mar23.html

Like a few other topics that pop up here with various titles, but common themes- for this one in particular its about whether or not illegal immigration is acceptable or unacceptable. So many politicians are sugar coating the fact of what their mindset is, here is an example from four years ago. Why do they just promote open borders-- it would not be an invasion at that point, but a North American Union.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

dc_dux

The "Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America" rears it ugly head again.

There is no treaty...there is no agreement to undercut US sovereignty...there is no plan for a North American Union.

The SPP was simply an agreement to have a dialogue to explore means of increasing security and areas of mutual economic development.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Sun Tzu

Yeah I know, I wonder what the true cause behind the lack of action. With the 25,000 soldiers currently protecting the border of another country, something could have been done years ago.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

william

Attacked/Invaded?
Are you kidding me? SoFL has Cubans on the shore almost daily. Wetfoot/dryfoot lets them stay. Haitians try just as hard - kicked to the curb.
I do not agree w/ the WF/DF policy, but make it neutral. Either we let them in or not.

Plan9

Going along with the poetry... a door means there are walls. A door is something that can be secured when one is threatened.

...

Invasion? Only as much as we allow through ineptitude. We're the great new Roman Empire and I figure we're going to go out in a similar fashion... but not for quite a while.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

roachboy

so wait--you think that the roman empire fell because it was not neurotic about its frontiers? are you serious?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Tully Mars

O'Reilly? Seriously?

O'Reilly's also on record accusing U.S. troops of committing the massacre at Malmédy, Belgium, during World War II, Uh, other way around there Billy boy.

He's also on record as stating his Boycott nearly ruined France. Last I heard they were doing fine. But you could always check his source the "Paris Business Review," Oh, wait... no you can't he made that publication up... just like most of his "facts."

I googled looking for stat's from the BOP I couldn't find any, they may be out there and this could be true. But the fact O'Reilly's on record with it makes me believe it's complete BS.

O'Reilly pulls more stats out of his ass then all the beans in Mexico. I know it's true, I read it in a study at Media Matters.

Well respected? By who, Lou Dobbs?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Sun Tzu

Well if you know its true why go into the rest? Let the No Spin Zones name be stricken Let the name of Oreilly be stricken from every book and tablet...
stricken from all pylons and obelisks, stricken from every monument of news gathering and journalism

Let the name of... Bill Oreilly


be unheard and unspoken,


erased from
the memory of men...


for all time. So let it be written- so let it done.


Yeah I did see that a couple of years ago. One of the truths about posting a quote is its open to scrutiny. In this case it is founded. The flip side of that practice is literally any sources for quotes can be. It's not difficult to dig to see who is pulling another's strings or what their possible agenda is. For example: you question who respects the information provided by CIS. One on what Im sure is a lengthy list is the US House of Representatives Committee on International Relations. Does that give them credabilty? Doesnt it depend on who you ask? How many tax payers dont respect the House of Reps? Is there any dirt one can find in that branch? Personally Im not an Oreilly fan, but how many millions of others are?
My point of including the video is how some people think they are addressing an issue but are actually sugar coating exactly what they are obviously trying not to openly state.

Maybe it would be worth it for you to initiate a thread to discuss parameters for quotes that all members find acceptable. It could save time eliminating the consuming task of verifying quote sources, their sources, who funded the website that its listed on, or the possibility that its a conspiracy being generated by the man behind the curtain.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Tully Mars

My point regarding O'Reilly is he has such a record of simply making crap up I can't believe anyone would believe anything he says at this point. He strikes me as an extremely angry, bigoted, xenophobe who seems to blame every problem in the world on the "others."

Much of what he's saying now could have and was said about his ancestors.

CIS might be a completely reliable source, I don't know. Seems like everytime I hear someone quote them it's someone like O'Reilly or Dobbs. When I've glanced through their site I see where they state things like the BOP says this or a DOJ study found that yet I never seem to find a link to that study.

Sources are fluid, no doubt about it. I like Michael Moore but I don't trust him as a source. He's pushing an agenda, no doubt about it. And I've see too many times where he's clearly made false statements to push that agenda. His break out film, Roger & Me, is mainly based on his pursuit of an interview with Roger Smith, CEO of GM. By watching the film you'd never know he did indeed interview Mr. Smith. Lying by omission is just as much a lie as making up studies, stats and entire publications.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

uncle phil

bill o'reilly?

anything he says?

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

dc_dux

Both Bill O'Reilly and the CIS inflated the numbers to suit their agenda...which should come as no surprise.

According to the Bureau of Justice stats:

"Overall. 6.4% of state and federal inmates in 2005 were not US citizens and it has been relatively stable since the mid 1990s (page 5)....NOt 32% and rising as O'Reilly claims.

Of the total prisoners in federal, state and local prisons and jails, 15% are hispanic (table 10-page 8)....i think it is reasonable to conclude that most are citizens, not illegal aliens, if you combine this with the first fact cited above......and certainly NO where near the 29% that CIS claims.

Prison and Jail Inmates at Midyear2005 (pdf report)

Prison and Jail Inmates at Midyear 2005 (main page)

When you cite O'Reilly as a source, you should expect to be challenged. Based on his record for BS, why wouldnt you want to verify anything he says...unless perhaps it supports your presupposed position.

The parameter most acceptable is simple....if you post an OPINION...anything goes....if you post "FACTS".....then FACT-CHECK!

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Tully Mars

Thanks, I knew these number had to be out there somewhere. We used to get several large green covered books from the DOJ every year full of stats like these. I looked around on-line a little for them but I'm easily side tracked, esp. when all those PDF files start popping up.

I also was pretty sure those numbers were complete bullshit. And yes I'd have thought that even if BO and CIS weren't the sources. I didn't believe a 1/4 to a 1/3 were illegals any more then I would have had the OP stated 1/2 of all death row inmates are white women.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Sun Tzu

Thats what I said. I agree there will and should be challenges. His statement was founded. I did see the statement he mentioned a couple of years ago. So he is not a reliable source. Who is? Do we have an accurate vote count every four years? Surely there wouldnt be any misrepresentation there.

The federal entity General Accountability Office has it at 27%.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf

The Bureau of Prisons has it at 4.2% for 2005.
http://www.bop.gov/news/research_pro...prcamp_cjr.pdf


Im sure we will be able to find several other figures. If government agencies are the last line of credability, CIS was asked to reort its figures by the US House of Representatives- so they find validity there. Personally, I have a hard time believing anyone.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

dc_dux

Sun...thanks for the links

The Bureau of Prisons report appears to use comparable data to the DoJ. One interesting fact from the GAO report is that most (more than 2/3) of non-citizen prisoners in federal detention are not there for violent crimes or any felony, but rather for the misdemeanor of entering the country illegally.

I would still caution you on the CIS data which is way out of line with all primary sources. The fact that a member of Congress (who presumably shares the CIS agenda of much lower immigration) asked the CIS to testify in some hearing does not mean that the House of Representatives views the organization as objective and credible.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Tully Mars

The GOA has it at 27% and the BOP states 4.7%?

That seems really odd. Later, maybe, I'll go through the PDF files and read up. I noticed the GOA's was 38 pages and lost interest it and decided to focus on my coffee.

My first thought is it seems like the BOP would know what prisoners they have and what is their status. I know anytime we had a person in custody and they were illegal INS would put a "hold" on them and if their release date was reached we turned them over to them for deportation.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

kutulu

As a Phoenix resident, I have to hear about Sheriff Joke quite a bit. The increase in illegal immigrant popultion in his jail system is largely due to the fact that he has made illegal immigration his personal vendeta. He and his brown shirt group set up immigration sweeps all over the county in hispanic areas. They find any tiny reason to pull over brown people and start questioning their citizenship status. This tactic results in many arrests. They claim that they aren't racially profiling. Sure.

JD is a corrupt right wing extremist blowhard doing local talk radio after getting run out of the US House of Reps. Rarely is anything said by him not distorted.

Sun Tzu

I hate JD Hayworth, I’m not the biggest fan of Sheriff Joe either. It’s probably a cleaver tactic these days for the government to say when it starts a war with another country- that it is the regime its going after not the actual countries population. This way resources don’t have to be appropriated to round immigrants from that country and put them in camps.

However, doesn’t it make sense it what Joe stated about the law: if Arizona resident’s don’t like the immigration laws they should change them. Ofcourse, even if that were the case- illegals would be allowed to vote on that as well. Is it racial profiling, yes it is, but Minnesota doesn’t border with Mexico does it? It also doesn’t change the reality of the kind of individuals that are being apprehended, just the statistics. If what he is doing is so terrible, then why stop at water stations on the way over here- lets set up a shuttle service.

Dont you think the bar was being pushed a little when thousands of illegals marched through downtown Phoenix? Or does paying sales tax give them a vote?

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking