SecretMethod70

Now that is a cop-out. Institutions are made up of individuals. Regardless of whether or not it's explicit or conscious, if the justice system is filled with so many racist individuals in a position of power, it is a de facto institutional problem.

And bringing up black on black crime as an excuse for racial disparities in the application of justice is no different than saying blacks are simply morally inferior to whites. Aside for that, I'm not sure how who seels the drugs has anything to do with the simple fact that crack cocaine has an unnecessarily more severe prison sentence than powdered cocaine. The result of this, regardless of who sold the cocaine, is that poor cocaine addicts receive sentences that are unnecessarily more severe than more wealthy cocaine addicts. Finally, since black Americans are disproportionately poor, black Americans are the most effected by this.

The fact that you don't understand that something can have a result which is unjust without explicitly intending to be so baffles me.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ottopilot

So what if any of us were victims of bigotry? Things are way better since the 80's ... but it's gonna happen again. How do you think Desmond Tutu would respond to your supposition? He grew up in arguably much worse conditions. What would Mahatma Ghandi have to say about all this hubbub? WWJD? ... kidding.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

SecretMethod70

You kid, but I've already demonstrated that Jesus essentially did proclaim the equivalent of "God damn America" in his time (or, at least, he's said to have done so). Jesus wasn't a big friendly dude with glowing hair. He was a religious and political radical who preached what amounted to an overthrow of the status quo.

More importantly, how can you essentially claim that the overall black community is in a collective mindset and that it is only through their own failings as people that they are so disproportionately disadvantaged when it comes to the average white American, and not recognize how incredibly bigoted that is?

Either blacks and whites are equal or they are not. And if you believe they are, you can't simultaneously claim that the black community's problems come from some sort of moral and psychological inferiority to more successful white people.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ottopilot

You can wish it that way, I'm only challenging your feelings about how you interpret cause and effect. The facts are there and there is no policy of racism ... it is illegal. The cop-out is hiding behind feelings and good intentions while perpetuating a culture of victimization. If you can prove it, prosecute. Go get em.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Willravel

Being whiter than aluminum foil in the microwave, I've never really faced the type of racism that a black, latino, or even asian might face. I've only had a taste of what I'm told is called reverse racism. I had a shit boss when I worked for Sears back in school who decided that I was one and the same as all those people that treated him like crap when he was a black boy growing up in a rather bad part of town. But all I got from him was not being treated the same as the other employees because I sound like a news castor. I've never seen imagery of my ancestors being hung simply because of the color of their skin. I don't live side by side with people who have residual racism left over from when their parents and my parents were "separate but equal". As a liberal, it's a part of me to do everything in my power to empathize and sympathize with people who aren't like me, but I can't sit here and claim that I get what it means to be a victim of real bigotry.

Leaving my own experiences aside, though, isn't it clear that Reverend Wright, who has been victimized by racism throughout his life should be categorized differently than those who have not been victimized by racism?

SecretMethod70

I honestly don't know, at this point, if you're being sarcastic or if you're just ignorant. If it were that easy, many things would have been changed by now. The disproportionate effect of drug sentencing laws, for example, has been proven for quite some time. Legislators are rarely swayed by data demonstrating whether or not policies are actually effective though. Just ask anyone who is reasonably familiar with biofuel.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ottopilot

never said anything like that. I'm talking about guys like Wright (and Falwell) and how people will fall all over themselves to justify a persons bigotry because they had a rough time at some point or they claim to have some moral authority ... not "the black community" (which is a point of dispute among blacks). I was answering dc's specific questions he posed about blacks in general. BTW - Jesus is a white Dutchman, check out the paintings.

I'm taller than my brother. I make less money than one of my sisters. I've worked for rich blacks. There is no one-to-one individual equality.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

SecretMethod70

You're right, there's not. But that does has nothing to do with the fact that, overall, blacks in America are very disproportionately disadvantaged.

Just because you'd like to call it bigotry does not make it so.

More importantly...I'm going to take a lesson from mixedmedia and realize I'm wasting too much time here. I finally had a chance to look back on your previous post and couldn't help but notice that you were citing FrontPage. As much as the idealist in me would like to think otherwise, the pragmatist has to admit that there's just about no way a discussion with someone who thinks anything from FrontPage is worth referencing is going anywhere. They make Fox look like they actually are fair and balanced. Incidentally, one of my favorite college professors was also in the top 5 of a FrontPage poll regarding the most "dangerous" professors in America. We tried to vote him up higher so that he'd beat his good friend Noam Chomsky, and it was close, but alas Chomsky won.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

dc_dux

The US is a signator to the UN Commitee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) under which it submits reports on government action to eliminate institutional racism.

You can read the latest official US report: here

The ACLU released a responsive independent shadow report highlighting the pervasive institutional, systemic and structural racism in America.

You can read the ACLU report: Racial & Ethnicity in America: Turning a Blind Eye to Injustice.

It sounds to me like you take the same approach as the Bush administration....as long as laws or institutional policies dont explicitly use terms like "black, African-American, etc", then there is no institutional racism in the US.

But I dont expect you will take a report from the ACLU very seriously or the UN CERD either for that matter.

****

I'm done here too.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ottopilot

Now that's putting me in my place and setting a dismisive tone!

I said in a previous post that the solution would be difficult to implement, get buy in, but the answer is not complicated. There's too much power to loose in moving on. Like crabs in a bucket, when one tries to rise above and escape, the others pull them back down. And no, that was not directed at the "black community"... there are bigots and racists of all colors.

Again, this thread was about Wright and Obama. The black theme was (I guess) inevitable. I'm not talking about blacks ... I'm challenging the free pass folks are willing to give to bigotry for any reason. I'm fully aware of the causes and the struggles. But when do we stop, lay anger or hatred aside, proceed? No-one seems to want to address these questions. It doesn't feed the ideology.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

SecretMethod70

No one is addressing your questions because they are based on a faulty premise - that Rev. Wright's statements were bigoted - or at least a premise which a large number of people in this thread disagree with.

We're not changing each other's minds; just let the thread die.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ottopilot

They are great reports. You and the ACLU get busy and prosecute, get them all, I'm all for it. But why get so personal and of course ... (trumpets please) invoke George Bush when frustrated in a challenging discussion?

Sleep tight zzzzzzzzz

uh ... that would be from the "front page" of Asia Times Online. So quick with the dismissive "credible sources" comebacks ... didn't bother to notice the link sourcing the article. I wouldn't have expected anything less.

Faulty, how so? Back it up if you can.

So then the issue is settled? I'm sorry, because the majority of posters agree with you, that's a win?

Then let it die ... It just takes jumping off, letting go, then moving forward ... much like moving beyond racism and bigotry.

I'll live up to my own example.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

SecretMethod70

Didn't say it's a "win," just a waste of time.Indeed, and now that my podcast is finished, I'll do just that.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

mixedmedia

All you fellas, be sure to mosey on over to the sexuality forum and let us know how you feel about your penis...if you haven't already.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ratbastid

See, guys, there's no point. ottopilot isn't listening. His view of the world is RIGHT, TRUE and ABSOLUTE--Wright IS racist, and no matter what anyone says, it's all going to be dismissed entirely. Why? Because Wright IS racist. Screw reasoning and evidence. Never mind that it's nauseatingly circular reasoning. Wright IS racist. He IS. IS IS IS. That's the winning counter-argument to everything, and then all his rhetoric flows naturally from that TRUE, RIGHT, ABSOLUTE starting-point.

This is a fucking joke. And it's not even personal or specific to you. THIS IS WHAT'S WRONG WITH POLITICS IN AMERICA, friends. We're so desperate to score points on each other we QUIT THINKING.

Willravel

It's really simple: Wright has reverse racist leanings, which is different than racism.

ring

Isn't thirteen pages of this enough?
Will I get my head bit off if I believe and request this thread should be locked?

mixedmedia

I don't think he has reverse racist leanings, either.

Actually, I've been thinking about it this morning...

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

The AIDS to kill off all black people thing is reverse racism. I'm not saying I blame him. As I understand it, Wright has been victimized by racism for many, many years.

mixedmedia

I don't see how it is reverse racism. He is not saying it because the people who might have done such a thing were white. If I thought it were directed at my race, I might be personally offended, but it is not. It is directed at what he, and many others, believe is a system of oppression. Do you feel targeted as a white person when he says that?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

Wright said that the US government created the AIDS virus. I think it's safe to assume that Wright isn't suggesting any black people were involved in the production or distribution, therefore it's implying non-blacks, mainly whites, were and are responsible. Unless he has direct evidence to back up his claims, which should have been included in his "sermon", it's less about protecting fellow members of his race from a danger and more about pointing a finger. That's where I see the reverse racism. But to reiterate, I can't say I blame him. Yes, it's an unhealthy and irresponsible way to work out his frustrations, but I can't blame him for being frustrated. Between being victimized by real racism and seeing the AIDS virus ravage the home of his ancestors, he has plenty to be frustrated with.

mixedmedia

well, we can just agree to disagree...in order for me to feel that his claim is racist it needs to target white people by something other than default.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

I never called him a racist. Racism and reverse racism are not the same thing. One has an element of righteousness to it, and the other doesn't, and that makes all the difference in the world.

Here: Blames gov for AIDS, and says the government is “controlled by rich white people”, and he has called the US the "US- of KKK - A" His phantoms do have white skin, but again it's not racism, but reverse racism.

dc_dux

Something to listen to before going out an enjoying a beautiful spring day:

Nina Simone - I Wish I Knew How It Would Feel To Be Free

<embed src="http://xml.truveo.com/eb/i/374062664/a/58ef677afb89fc040e3dec6de7dd6c26/p/1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350" ></embed>

I wish I knew how it would feel to be free
I wish I could break all the chains holding me
I wish I could say all the things that I should say
Say 'em loud say 'em clear
For the whole wide world to hear

I wish I could share
All the love that's in my heart
Remove all the bars that keep us apart
And I wish you could know how it is to be me
Then you'd see and agree that every man should be free

Enjoy!

Now I am off to to lunch.....corn beef on rye before Passover!

***

Wait...one more.



I dont expect otto to read the book....but we can all learn a little by watching the 3-part video interview with the author.

Damn, I'm off....I'm late, I'm late...for a very important date.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pig

Do what? I don't really feel too badly about asking this potentially threadjacking question, as I get the feeling the thread is kind of played out...so huh?

What if I go to reverse-reverse racism? Would be theoretically be back at bad again? I think this terminology or semantic shift here is dangerous.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Willravel

Racism is hatred towards another race motivated by fear and ignorance. Reverse racism is hatred or unreasonable mistrust towards another race fueled by racism from said race. It's not semantics at all, it's apples to oranges and that distinction is of paramount importance to the subject matter of the thread.

SecretMethod70

Yep, I linked to that book earlier in the thread. Didn't know there was an interview available on the internet though. I'll have to watch that.

EDIT: ooh, and from Democracy Now! even. Gotta love Amy Goodman.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

mixedmedia

I don't quite follow you, but regardless, his sentiment is hardly rare in the black community here in America and around the world and it is not so much a reaction to race as it is to power and authority. After all, I am sure you also aware of the suspicion that black people can sometimes cast on themselves, as well...

...especially when they assume positions of power and authority.

Therefore when the man talks about the 'US of KKK' or the US government creating AIDS, I don't feel as if I am the target of his accusations.

Is the government not controlled by rich, white people? I'm pretty sure it is.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

There's really only one way to revolve this: I'm going to have to attend Trinity United Church of Christ.

And yes, the government is controlled by mostly white rich people.

roachboy

this turn in the thread points back to what i posted in-what?--post 427 and 434.

it's a kind of demonstration of the argument.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

mixedmedia

I'm not saying that there isn't such a thing as black people who hate white people for the color of their skin. I have been a target of that...of course, the only instances of this have been in a place where white racism was still alive and quite well.

I'm just saying that I don't see it in this instance. I've no reason to believe that if I walked up to Rev. Wright today that he would look at me and hate me either for the color of my skin, or for any trappings of white-icity I may have about me.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

pig

funny roach: i had a whole post which essentially dovetailed into that post and the critique on the systemic nature of our political system. wright probably isn't a perfect man, obama may not be either, how this whole red-herring essentially does nothing for me in my analysis of the given candidates, etc....and my internet connection got zapped and i lost the post, and am now too lazy to repost. so i'll go have a beer and play some guitar. reasonable solution if you ask me.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

mixedmedia

I missed this before, will, I'm sorry.

But I fail to see how 'hatred or unreasonable mistrust towards another race fueled by racism from said race' can be designated as racism in any form. Sounds to me more like a 'reasonable reaction.' And this may make me a socio-political freak in this day and age, but I don't think this reaction reflects on the character of those who are reacting this way in the least.

Do I take it that you are withholding judgment on Rev. Wright for feeling that way, but just trying to pin a name on the views he purports? Or, are you saying that his views betray a flaw in his character? Should he be moderating his views? What exactly is the issue?

You know, I've seen all kinds of wild theories and speculations about what the Bush administration (and other conservative administrations) have done, are doing, will be doing...quite a bit of it right here at TFP. Should these folks be moderating their views, as well? Should they be viewed as hateful and threatening? Because if you line all the theories up side by side, in many cases I really don't see the 'AIDS' one as being all that more wild than many others. Only difference is this one comes from an almost exclusively afrocentric point of view and therefore seems to take on a more threatening, taboo distinction. Would you agree with that?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

Reverse racism is not reasonable because not all white people are racist. I'd sooner shoot myself in the leg than mistreat someone due to the color of their skin or home of their ancestors. Some white people are racist, yes, but to act like all white people are racist because some are is racist. Reverse-racist, actually.

Yes, I am withholding my final or official judgment, but I do think based on the evidence it seems that he's probably got issues with his own reverse racism.

Of course none of this has anything at all to do with Obama, and he has been really open in answering people's questions regarding Wright. I'm satisfied with his answers.

mixedmedia

I'm going to make this my last post.

You have no reason to believe that Rev. Wright thinks that all white people are racist.

And, with all due respect, since you glossed over all of my other comments, I will ignore the rest of yours, as well.

See you on another thread.

*unsubscribe...again*

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

Like I said, probably. Why would I think that? When he says "rich white men" control America, he's speaking in generalities that support the division of races. Condoleezza Rice is not white, but no one can argue that she isn't a part of those who try to control the US. Alberto Gonzales isn't white, but he was directly involved. His strong leftist leaning would suggest that he'd probably hate Rice and Gonzales as much as anyone because of what they've done.

His choice of words suggests, though does not prove, that he may have some reverse racism going on.

Derwood

if/when Obama consults Wright during his presidency, we'll talk

ottopilot

That would be this man ...


Is Jeremiah Wright purposely trying to derail the Obama campaign?

I told you this wasn't going away any time soon.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

QuasiMondo

It's not going away because none of you, in and out of the media, will let it go away.

He's been silent for weeks, while people demanded that he explain himself and his sermons. Now that's he's finally stepped on stage, these same people want him to shut up.

Folks couldn't get enough of Rev.Wright, you wanted him, now you've got him.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Shauk

my "halfsies" sister just adopted this as her myspace icon




I think all this anti Obama trashing has gotten a little out of hand. I flat out asked her why and this is her response...

I linked her a bunch of obama stuff, for frak's sake, the least you can do when researching a candidate is RESEARCH A CANDIDATE

I am so disappointed.

she said she'd look at it at least.