ottopilot

[whisper]

psst ... have you heard that Barak Obama is a smoker? ...

[/whisper]

The_Jazz

Said the guy with the pipe featured on his avatar.

He smokes Marlboro Reds. Big whoop. If that's the biggest vice you can think of for Obama, you haven't been paying attention.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

ottopilot

Oh he's not just a pipe smoker, he's a pipe smoker with 3D glasses.

The Democrat spin on the McCain quote and this new one on Obama today are really very silly. It's only going to get worse.

flstf

http://www.hillaryis44.org/
Reading the comments on this site is like watching a train wreck in slow motion. From what I can tell they are mostly older women who are convinced that Obama and the media have stolen the election from Hillary and will vote for McCain so she can run again in 2012.

pan6467

Let's see what he has said about some people close to him because you can judge a man's character by the way he talks and handles his friends......

Rev Wright "I never heard in my 20 years with him, dinners at his house, even, those divisive hateful sermons."

Rezko "I never was involved with the man, didn't know anything about hi, sure he has had fundraisers and has helped me raise lots of money, but I didn't associate with the man."

His grandmother "She was a typical racist white person."

Then there are the tapes that show when he tries to speak off the cuff, without a prepared speech, he is a complete babbling idiot.

There is the fact that noone truly knows ANYTHING about this man.

He says "Change" but wtf changes does he mean?

Trust me I am not wanting another 4 years of Bushlite, but anyone is far far better than Obama.

The question was "Why do you support McCain" that is why.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

The_Jazz

As someone who's actually spoken to the man on a few occassions, you're wrong. He is very well-spoken and an intelligent individual. You're welcome to your opinion, but I'll point out that it's not based on any personal experience you have with Sen. Obama, simply what you've seen on TV.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

dc_dux

Imagine no Obama
Its easy if you try
No Wright, no race, no change
Just hype, false hope abound

Imagine John McCain
Wars till the end of time
No taxes for the wealthy
The rest just left behind......

hmmmm....what would the prophet John think?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

host

GRRRRrrrrrrrrrr.....Just kidding....

The_Jazz, I am less concerned about "the skeletons" in the Hensley closet, than I am about McCain's judgment, and his ethics, clouded by ambition and maybe even greed....that is what his decision to make f-inlaw Jim Hensley, his principle political benefactor, and very rich, too, seems to raise concerns about, IMO.

ratbastid

pan, I just wish you would get 1/10th as interested in Obama's policies as you are in your interpretation of his personality or in the so-called scandals that his opponents have attempted to peg on him. It's regrettable that this election has turned into a battle of personality rather than a conversation of ideas.

snowy

I gotta say, I was really glad to see Sen. Barbara Boxer on "The Situation Room" the other day emphasizing the fact that John McCain is a pro-life candidate--he has received a rating of 0 from NARAL. His pro-life stance seems to be often overlooked.

Yet another reason I wouldn't even consider voting for the guy.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

pan6467

When you have 2 slimebuckets, a press that pretty much built up the candidates and never gave anyone else a chance, 2 men so despicable that 20 years ago would never have been elected dog warden with the scandals they have been involved in.... then you add a populace so beaten down financially, patriotically, morally, physically and mentally trying hard to grasp onto anyone.. you are asking for serious problems.

In all honesty, I have stated numerous times, both parties would be wise to lose this election, things will get worse before they get better.

When in 2 years the Iraq War is still going..... and Obama is in office saying, "we cannot pull out yet." What do you tell all those who voted for him because he swore he was going to bring the troops home?

Or let's say he pulls out and all of a sudden we have a few terrorist attacks here?

When in 2 years, the economy is still just as bad if not worse..... what do you tell those who voted for Obama who promised he was going to help everyone and things would get better?

What do you tell those who are barely making it when gas prices hit $6 a gallon and inflation out of control?

They'll understand we have them programmed to hate big oil.... but didn't Obama swear things would get better?

Say goodbye to a Dem Congress.

When in 4 yrs..... we are still in the war, the economy is still shit.... say goodbye White House.

It's '76 all over. A very disliked, scandal ridden administration and a horrible recession looming.... here comes a "saviour" who trusted the wrong people, who ended up being far worse for the country and losing the White House for 12 years. In '76 hard times were coming... it was going to happen regardless of who was in office, but Carter was brought in with everyone saying he could make this country great. Didn't happen. This is history repeating itself.

And if I am wrong in 4 ears and our nation is prospering and people are raving about how great Obama is.... then I'll admit I was wrong. But will you admit I was right, if what I predict happens?

No, it'll be someone else's fault.... Bush's fault..... the GOP who didn't give Obama what he wanted...... Big business..... the ultra rich...... everyone but his fault.

Yet, when if it happens with McCain.... it will be all his fault.

I'll take McCain.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

It's important not to confuse the hypothetical with the likely. Just talking about meeting with people instead of bombing them shows the intellectual capability to reason ethically. This is an ability which is not present in Bush or McCain, each of whom see their friends profit from war.
You're making this decision because you're frustrated and you want to lash out. That's your right, but don't expect anyone else to understand or approve.

If you honestly believe that McCain and Obama are likely to have similar administrations, you've lost your objectivity.

pan6467

You pick and choose Will.... you ignored a lot of other things I wrote.

Do I think McCain will be better? Yes, a Dem Congress can and will hold him at bay.

I'm not frustrated or wanting to lash out..... but if that is what you want to believe and ignore what I wrote that is your right.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

My response was to all of it. You basically predicted a future that supports your case without giving your reasoning. As Cynthetiq would say, that's intellectually dishonest. Prediction should be about reasonable likelihoods and precedent, not inventing an unsupportable future that fits your argument.

Do you believe that an Obama presidency and McCain presidency will be anything alike?
You find comfort in a stalled system, where the executive and legislative are adversarial. I disagree.
You can throw "ignore" around all you want, but it doesn't gather meaning from repetition. I read everything you wrote and responded to it.

host

I think pan is voicing a great concern of mine....whoever is the next president will likely be overtaken by events that the Bush presidency seems to have made inevitable...Iraq war "blowback"...a "bad end" if we withdraw slowly, quickly, or not at all, continued $700 billion annual national debt increases....either via Obama's increased domestic spending on new programs or on attempts to ease the pain of long recession on already strapped, but currently still employed families....later....as unemployment grows.

Of coarse...there will be some attacks in the next few years....on US soil, the law of averages dictates it. The media and republicans, under an Obama presidency scenario, will call whatever it is, "terrorism", stress that all was peaceful, "in the homeland" during the post 9/11 Bush years, and unceasingly drive home the point that "we got hit", because Obama is "soft on terrorism".

These attacks are, under the law of averages, most probable and predictable....why not let McCain be the figurehead when they happen, NEXT?

Like it or not, under pan's way of looking at things, if McCain wins, it's a longterm win for democrats, and if Obama wins, democrats will feel like immediate winners....although the "be careful what you wish for" scenario will probably be the next shoe to drop on the dems.....

The federal government will also attempt to stem the waive of local government bankruptcies....it's coming....growing home foreclosure rates, coupled with declining property values, will diminish property tax collections, just as recession driven demands for increased social services, rise.

Bank failures will destroy the meager reserves in the FDIC deposit insurance fund, and the federal government will borrow to keep paying deposit insurance claims.

Combine all of this chronic borrowing with a trade deficit that isn't going away....it may decline from $800 billion annually now, to $500 billion as we import less oil and discretionary consumer products, due to recession, and you have a recipe for long recession with no interest rate relief. The dollar may not fall further, because, as demand drops, we should experience catastrophic deflation....the Fed's worse fear. All debt will increase in "value", in the sense of the difficulty in making debt payments in a deflationary environment, vs. owing and paying on a fixed amount of money that is decreasing in value in an inflationary environment....

I think pan is saying...and if he is....I agree that the democrats best long term scenario is to gain bigger margins in the senate and the house, but leave the presidency, this time....to John McCain....let him be this era's "Jimmy Carter style", "patsy"...for the blowback caused by the last eight years, just as Carter ended up being the "patsy" for the Johnson/Nixon/Ford/Vietnam "blowback".

The only other probable scenario is two years of complete democratic party control under Obama and the next congress....painted because of the Iraq war and the economy and deficit as a period of dismal democratic management failure....followed by republican mid-term gains in the legislature in 2010, followed by long republican dominance...a repeat of 2002 to 2006, from 2012 onward....

Oh yeah....if you aren't under the influence of the "Obama vibe"...some are calling him a "light worker"....ala Martin Luther King....
....it isn't hard to agree that he has shown extremely poor judgment in his relationship with Rezko, most especially the house "deal"....and the way he tried at first to deflect what actually happened, and in his relationship with the former weather underground couple, and...although it is minor, it speaks to and is linked to the other two misjudgments.... the two nutcase pastors he vouched for.

Because Obama has been campaigning for the presidency almost since his speech at the 2004 democratic convention, he is perceived....it is stressed by the opposition....as having much less than four years experience as a US senator. So what have you got? A well meaning, charasmatic young guy whose greatest executive management experience is in managing his senate staff and the staff of a perpetual campaign....and his vice-president search committee just imploded, because of the man Obama picked to coordinate it had a shitty ethical compromise in his past....

So, charitably....Obama is light on executive management experience, light on senate, in person, legislative experience, and he's an iffy judge of character, motive, and ability of others...... great !

Do I have your timeline about right, pan?

Willravel

Host, whoever pulls the troops out will be a hero to all but a few Fox News hacks. That credit can go towards balancing the necessary strains of fixing the numerous problems left by the Bush Administration. This would also buy us 4 years.

pan6467

Ummmm.... call it what you will, I see a great many similarities between the '76 election and this one. Which would be precedent. Believing we will get financially stable regardless of the president ignores all signs it won't. I supported my position quite well above, at least for me. Don't like it I don't care. I have yet to hear you reason against it. All you can do is throw phrases, cut and paste what you want and not truly give an opposing view. You just attack mine.

Not really. But I'll take Mccain's over Obama's.

I find comfort in that no one party will have a blank check and hopefully instead of gridlock we'll see compromises made for the betterment of the country. I'd rather have a McCain look totally inefficient and unable to compromise than Obama run this country further down because he has a blank check. Also helps in future elections, the McCain scenario.

Really Will? Where's the comments on my comparing the '76 election to this one? Where's the answer to:

Where's your comments to:

I don't see those. I see you saying "well your are predicting and guessing and making your choice that way????? WTF? And I am supposed to elect a president how? Especially based on what we know of either man. OOOOO because Obama is the messiah, the saviour I am to just blindly vote for he man.

OOOOO because he is a great man, I am supposed to ignore a 20 yr association with Rev. Wright. (And I can't talk about it because that is racist.)

I'm supposed to ignore that this great man who is going to be the greatest president since Washington.... has had very poor people around him, that he will routinely put under the bus, came out of nowhere and has a press cover up and make excuses for this man, while crucifying McCain for every little thing he says.

But most importantly Will, you totally ignored this:

What will you admit to in 4 years if I am right about Obama? If things do get worse...

I vote for the man I think will work best for my country the next 4 years. McCain, for all his faults will be that man.... ANYONE that ran would be better than Obama.

That is my opinion.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

telekinetic

threads like this almost make me wish my vote mattered

/lives in Phoenix
/a vote for Obama in Arizona would be good for statistical purposes only

__________________
twisted no more

Willravel

I did.
So?
Strawman. I never said we'd become financially stable. We'll likely get started to financial stability under Obama but we may not reach it for decades. We will not get started on the road to financial stability under McCain, who will continue the war regardless.
]
That's a good summarization of your attitude.
Within 2 years the war will still be going? Under a Democratic president and Democratic Senate? That's ludachris. The only reason that the Dems can't do anything now is the veto power of Bush. Ask DC_Dux. As such, there's strong evidence that a Democratic Executive and Legislative can withdraw the troops quickly.
The why did you essentially say they would, only with intentions being different? Were you just flaming?
Presenting compromise as automatically being what's best for everyone is fallacious at the very least. The betterment of the country cannot and will not happen under McCain. The furthering of corporate interests will be the only real benefit, and that's not something that will trickle down.
My response: "You basically predicted a future that supports your case without giving your reasoning."
You're not making reasonable predictions. You're saying "everything that Obama is promising and everything that his precedent has demonstrated is wrong and he will fail as a president. What then?" without giving one tiny ounce of evidence. Have you bothered to compare Obama to Carter? Have you compared their voting records? Have you compared their careers before serving in public office? Of course not, because that would reveal the gaping hold in your case.
Again with that? "Hi everybody, I'm pan and I walk the line of being racist so that when people call me on it I can become a maryter! Whoa is me! I am victimized by those I bait into sorta calling me possibly racist!"

The 20 year association with Reverand Wright.... you mean like Rod Parsley, a racist (against Muslims and Arabs) minister who happens to be McCain's spiritual guide? The one who has called on eradicating a "false religion" by "war"? Reverand Wright has not once endorsed violence, despite his somewhat extremist views. Parsley, on the other hand has called on Christians to wage war against Islam.
[QUOTE=pan6467]But most importantly Will, you totally ignored this:[/QUOPTE]
I have the rationality and objectivity to say that I will make the decision after it's happened, taking all facts into account instead of trying to guess 4 years before it happens. If Obama fails, it may be because of a million and one reasons we don't know about now and it would be downright stupid to pretend that we would know what would cause the failure of his presidency. Projecting bias onto me is meaningless, though.

"Someday, if Obama's presidency fails, you're not going to blame him". I'll tell you what, meet me here in 4 years and I'll continue to present reasonable and verifiable information and my opinions based on that information while you're still bemoaning someone almost calling you a racist.
If you think continuing the Iraq war is good for the US, you have no understanding of economics or morality.

dc_dux

pan...you can vote for whomever you want for whatever reason you want.

IMO, based on your posts, you are being a bit disingenuous with your double standards.

You raise Obama's 20 year "association" with Wright...you ignore Obama's 20+ year association with his crooked father-law...and his association with the S&L scandal 20 years ago and his current association with Phill Gramm (his chief economic advisor) and the banking lobby that some attribute as being responsible in part for the sub-prime crisis.

You fault Obama for throwing Wright under the bus (I would characterize it differently) ..but ignore McCain's throwing two evangelical extremists under the bus

You raise questions about the "people" around Obama and ignore the "people" (around 100 lobbyists - telecomm, banking, etc) around McCain..some of whom have had to resign for lobbying for Mynmar and other nasty foreign governments.

You call Obama a "fucking idiot" for misstatements on the campaign trail and ignore McCain's equally (or more) idiotic misstatements on the campaign trail.

You claim that Obama gets a "press cover up?...and McCain's media friendly "straight talk express" doesnt.

Just be honest that you dont hold McCain to the same standard as you do Obama...rather than resort to the hyperbole that relies on bullshit that plays on voters' emotions in the manner encouraged by the most right wing blogs.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Jinn

I knew there was a reason I hadn't posted on this thread.. looks like things haven't changed much since the Rev. Wright thread.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

pan6467

You guys are absolutely right..... so here's he deal.

I am allowed my ideas and to spout my opinion. and you gus just shut the fuck up and say..."ok". That way I can't play the martyr and I get my opinion out.

Sound ok.... sounds great.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

The_Jazz

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

ratbastid

pan: I acknowledge and respect your right to hold and espouse whatever opinions you have, regardless of how misguided and wrong-headed I believe them to be. The mods say we've got freedom of speech here, and so we have. Spout on, brotha.

pan6467

See the one thing you all cannot seem to grasp is, it is not about me voting for McCain because I like the man. It is about me voting AGAINST Obama. He scares me.... scares me worse than French fry man. Scared me worse than Shrillay who I swore I would never vote for.

But ignore the reasons why he scares me ..... say it's because I'm racist.... I want to be a martyr.... I want to hold him to a different standard whatever....

I feel what I feel and for the first time in my life come Nov. I will be voting a republican in for president. Not one of you has convinced me with sound argument not to. In fact you push me even further towards making sure I vote for McCain.

Either way whoever wins we are pretty much in trouble... personally, I see McCain doing far less damage and allowing the Dems to come up with a true plan and leader that can rebuild this nation. Obama just can't and won't.

But such is life...... but it's not the times we live in, it's the loved ones we surround ourselves with that truly make our lives....

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

pan...hey...I'm just trying to understand the double standard.

Only if you consider four more years of essentially the same policies as the last eight as ""doing far less damage" than a more progressive alternative.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

Obama is proving to have no substance behind his words. And, he is developing a pattern with his "friends" of first minimizing bad behavior, dismissing it, blaming the "attack machine", apologizing for it, and then throwing his "friends" under the bus. I don't like that. At least McCain knows he is a politician.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Tophat665

Actually, one of pan's two core arguments - if I am correctly apprehending it - to wit - that whoever has the whitehouse next is in an impossible situation, cannot but fail miserably, and will sour the country for their party for the next n*4 years where n>2 - is one of the ones that really scares me. I am seriously worried that whoever takes the whitehouse next, regardless of any actions they take or fail to take, will be presiding over a trainwreck of Hooverian proportions.

So the question is, do we want a young man in full possession of his faculties, or another case of impending alzheimers. Reagan got away with it only because he was losing his mind at the right time for the policies of everyone president from Truman forward to come to fruition. A guy with a slim chance of doing the right thing or a guy with no chance at all. Is the cup half empty or half full if the liquid is cyanide?

That said, his second core argument - that Obama scares him - largely because of 1) pandering and 2) Rev. Wright - is pure twaddle.

All politicians pander. It's a core job function. You might hold it against Obama more because he presents himself as above it, but you'd be naive to believe that in the first place.

I think he handled the Rev. Wright thing pretty well. Black ministers, in my limited experience say some crazy, racist shit until they see the white guy about 10 rows back. The issue is that their racism is based on a not unfounded, historically speaking, assumption that the man (that would be you and me) is trying to keep the black man down. I don't know about you, but I am only trying to keep the crazies down regardless of color. Obama explained at length his view on race relations and correctly identified the problem. When Wright gave him problems after the speech, he kicked him to the curb. I give him credit for giving his friend one chance to make it right. This is high stakes politics, after all. (And if you have a problem with having friends who have some fucked up repugnant viewpoints, well, I'm glad you have enough friends that you can demand perfection. I don't think that is the case with most people.)

You may have noticed today that there was a 5-4 decision on whether Habeus Corpus was a fundamental right in SCOTUS today. 4 years of McCain and that could well go the other way. That will be what he is forced to pay for evangelical votes - another Scalia clone.

I'm sure that did absolutely nothing to change your mind, yet I feel better for saying it anyway.

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

aceventura3

I think the train wreck is going to be a Democratic President and a Democratic Congress. The economy certainly took a turn south after Democrats gained control of Congress. It will only get worse after Obama is elected.

Possession of faculties? Let's see - Obama is not going to allow new domestic oil exploration, he is going to raise taxes on gas, lessen our use of coal, not allow nuclear, raise CAFE standards (raising the price of cars), increase taxes on domestic oil companies, lessen our use of foreign oil, subsidize inefficient alternatives to gas...and...(this is the kicker)...lessen the burden of energy costs on the average American. Who is kidding who, or is it whom?

Except for standing up for someone you had a 20 year friendship with. How about simply telling the media I don't share Wright's views on everything, but he his my friend, my pastor and I stand with him and I won't throw him under the bus..

Some believe...I mean truly believe.

They generally don't say crazy racist stuff.

I think Wright has been consistent, he even said that during his PBS interview. I think the change was with Obama and the fact that he started taking heat. Instead of standing up to the heat he gave in, a sign of weakness.

We could use more Scalia's on the court.

True. I am thinking the exact same thing.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Willravel

Can you post some verifiable figures on this?

dc_dux

Blaming the Democrats for the economic downturn? Are these the same Democrats in Congress who you repeatedly say havent done anything substantive since they took control?

I recall an earlier discussion about Bush economic policies where you made an argument that one must wait a number of years in order to have an objective analysis of the impact of a change in policies on the economy.

Beyond that, like will, I too would like to see some objective facts and figures where you can blame the economy turning south as a result of the Democrats gaining control of Congress or how it will get worse after Obama is elected.

While you're at it, maybe you can find a way to blame the Democrats for the rise in the national debt from under $5 trillion to over $9 trillion during Bush's first six years with a Republican Congress.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

Thank you for the respect of a true discussion of my ideas instead of just telling me how wrong I am. I appreciate that.

I will say that the first core you have pretty nailed down. I see serious problems on the horizon and we need a man that will either find ways to try to change things and inspire hope or a sacrificial lamb. I choose the sacrificial lamb because I don't see Obama changing things, I actually fear they would be worse with him.

The second isn't just Wright, it's Obama's grandmother, his relationship with Rezko, Ace made some good points in this aspect. the fact that he is relatively an unknown.... I don't buy all the hype. Someone somewhere is pulling his strings.... he is a puppet to someone.

In 1980.... the GOP was all excited about Ronald Reagan.... turns out he was a front man, a puppet. I see Obama much the same way, only not in anyway shape or form good for this country.

If he surrounds himself with a racist, a mobster, throws his grandmother under the bus and so on.... then says these are people he didn't truly know...... this shows me a man who accepts no responsibility for the people he calls friends. So then the question begs, what kind of people will he put into his cabinet? Carter was very similar, but at least he didn't say, "I didn't know", he accepted responsibility for his choices, THAT IS THE SIGN OF A LEADER.... I do not believe based on what I have seen, read, heard from Obama himself in some instances... that he would do the same. The buck won't stop with him, he'll pass it off anyway he can to whomever happens to be in his way. The man is colder that Bill Clinton in that aspect. That frightens me.

And again, if I am wrong and in 4 years Obama turns out to be the messiah, I'll admit I was wrong and vote for him with gusto..... but if he isn't and things do get worse and he is among the worst rated presidents (Hooveresque) then I can rest easy with my conscience.... even if I will be homeless.

So there ya have it.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

I dont think most reasonable and rational supporters of Obama believe he will be the messiah...at least I dont.

Based on his positions, record, background and experience, I hope and expect that he (and a larger Democratic majority in Congress) will bring more progressive solutions to the problems we face as nation....problems that have been been made worse by the policies of the last eight years.

And I think he and his supporters understand how hard that may be...the ship of state that has been on a terribly wrong course for eight years cannot be turned around overnight.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

host

_dux, the stock market is finally waking up to "the tell" from the stock price performances exhibited in the charts of four national residential homebuilders.

The chart of the S&P 500 shows that a "V Shaped Recovery" was the popular investor belief, after the democrats gained control of congress, even so far as the expectations for the homebuilders themselves. The homebuilders led the decline, they paused, bounced back, declined again. Now, it is sinking in, they are making new lows, and they will go bankrupt....but, for the S&P 500, realization was slow in coming, steeped in a denial that drove that index to a new, all time high, even when it was obvious that the homebuilders were losing money and would not recover anytime soon.










Obama, if elected, will preside over a period of economic depression, if the downward momentum of the stock prices of the homebuilders is an indication, and I believe that it is.

The concern that I have is that Obama is not talking about the manipulation that drove the clear sign of a broken system....new highs in the S&P 500 when there were obvious signals that it was time to sell stocks, not to buy them....the sudden collapse of Bear Stearns, the unprecedented access given by the Fed to unregulated, major investment banks, to low interest loans in exchange for "collateral" of questionable (unmarketable....nearly worthless at the present time....) value. He's not describing these signs as problems, not proposing investigation leading to regulatory reform.

He's telling us (and Wallstreet) what we want to hear.....the consequences will be that the shock of what is actually coming to America in the next two years will catch him, and us....unprepared, unaccepting....although he must know at least what I know....and he still wants to run....and do it this way, not talking about it!

pan6467

So you're saying if the country is worse it won't be Obama's fault? Thatwe are already headed there and Obama may work hard but we still maybe headed there.

Kinda goes against what he is telling everyone doesn't it?

People vote because they (the vast majority) believe the person they are voting for will better even a little their lives and the country, yet you are saying, "well he'll try."

Hmmmmm.

Just like getting out of Iraq overnight, I truly think it's a wrong move and if he does he is foolish to and it'll end up political suicide for him and the party.... but if he stays, he lied and that will be political suicide. He painted himself into a very very bad corner with this issue. One that can very well destroy the whole party.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

host

pan, even though you have ignored my supportive post, FWIW, I tried to take your opinion seriously....you're making it harder....Obama's Iraq position is perfectly reasonable, full of common sense. Your position seems full of Bush-Cheney-McCain Kool-Ade:

pan6467

BINGO.... B I N G O and BINGO was his dog O.

And when it does happen, or OPEC decides to finally pull the plug on the US Dollar and go to he Euro for oil...... where will Obama be? Where will his supporters be?

America the beautiful will as a majority turn him into a very hated president.

Gee, that really helps all of us, a black president in office during a great downfall..... that will help race relations won't it.

Hmmmm..... Maybe the powers that be in the Dem party are sacrificing Carter..... I mean Obama...

But shhhhhh don't tell anyone to believe that would be racist.

I do wonder, who the Obama puppet masters are.


Make it clear we are leaving.... YES.

Set a time table based on days? NO.

We need to make sure that what we destroyed in that illegal war, we fix before we come home. We need to use the military to help the Iraqis rebuild a better homeland.

Does that mean continue the war? No, but we cannot just bring everyone home, leave that place a shit hole and have the Muslim world over there use it as a bigger excuse to hate us.

FUCK THAT SHIT!!!!!!! Help them rebuild it. We bombed the hell out of it, now we need to help rebuild it.

I don't hear Obama talking this way. His plan would be to bring the troops home ASAP and leave that mess. If we do that, we just helped the radical muslims in that area draft more terrorists. Terrorists that WILL come to our homes.

But if we help rebuild and when we leave Iraq and the Iraqis are a better, happy people and nation..... then we have accomplished something.

With the right leadership we can do this.

Is that leader McCain? Maybe, but he is far better than Obama on this issue. McCain is far more realistic.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

host

That's an easy one, pan....Obama is a defender of the status quo...the top fraction of one percent in this country who hold controlling interests in wealth, and it follows...also in corporate (and in the corporate media...Russert is eulogized as an aggressive, "probing journalist", a year after Cheney's former press secretary testified under oath, that Cheney considered questioning on teevee by Russert, to be Cheney's "best venue"....) and political power, and thus, controlling interest in Obama !

dc_dux

pan...you've conveniently twisted what I posted. I said IMO, his progressive policies are the best way forward for the country but the impact of any policy changes are not likely to be felt overnight....he has never suggested anything more.

One thing is more certain, IMO....a continuation of the same policies as Bush will only compound the problems we currently face and that is what you will get, for the most part, with McCain.

Beyond that youve demonstrated in your last two post that you really have no idea what Obama's policy positions are...particularly regarding Iraq....which is not getting out of Iraq overnight and abandoning the reconstruction of the country.

But that comes as no surprise....IMO, your contribution to every discussion about Obama have been based purely on emotion, which is your right......but I would describe it as an emotional train wreck, which is my right.

Screaming he is a FUCKING IDIOT......FUCK THAT SHIT.....THROWING FRIENDS UNDER THE FUCKING BUS ...HE HANGS OUT WITH RACISTS SO THEY ALL CALL ME A RACIST does not lead to a productive discussion of policy alternatives!

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Tophat665

Pan, you are welcome, and I completely understand now from whence you are coming. I can't say that I even disagree on particulars, only that I have a different take on 1) The folks Obama has surrounded himself with (in degree if not in kind) and 2) the likely direction in which he will go. I think who the Veep is will tell. If he starts giving previews of likely cabinet members, it will solidify further one way or the other.

So, having come to this, I can fully respect your decision and thank you for it, even while not sharing it.

The Courts are the bottom line for me. I am deeply frightened by another activist calling himself a strict constructionist in the Scalia mold. With a significant fraction of the populace evidently bent on theocracy, I don't believe we can afford another SCOTUS justice who is willing to tolerate legislative shennanagins in their support. That was by bottom line for voting for Kerry, who was the least appealing presidential candidate since Buchanan (I exaggerate, but at least since Dukakis).

Thanks for the conversation.

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Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.