01-15-2008, 06:51 PM | #1 (permalink) |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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How do you feel about mandatory health insurance?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080115/..._healthcare_dc
Is it similar to mandatory car insurance? I understand the concept and how it should work, but will it work on a federal/national level, or should it be state by state? (My car insurance is much cheaper in Ohio than in New Jersey/California. But they are trying to get laws passed that would allow them to buy from different states then they currently live in. Would the same thing happen here, where people move or travel and go from state to state frequently? How do you prevent the quality from being less in smaller states with fewer people?) Do you feel that there is any incentive for doctors/insurance companies to lower prices because everyone has to pay now? Will this increase demand for doctors because of the 'I'm spending all this money, I better get something for it' attitude? How will this effect immigrants (legal one would have to get it, so I'm talking about illegal ones here) and visitors to this country with no health care coverage? How are really sick people covered by this plan (do they have to pay more?) What would be covered by this health care insurance, is it just like we have today in the US (are there strict limits as to what is covered, or can you pay for better coverage)? Do you think this would work better than a single government (or a non-profit) run health insurance company/agency? Do they healthy people still need to pay for people who choose to be unhealthy, or should there be tests and lifestyle factors that determine the rate you pay based on how likely you will need medical assistance? |
01-15-2008, 08:03 PM | #2 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: NYC
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You can choose not to drive if you don't want to pay for car insurance. You can't choose not to breathe or live.
I had a discussion with my wife a few years ago. We pay a bloody fortune for health insurance, probably 4 times what it would cost us to just pay for the doctors when we need them. But she refused to let me cancel the insurance and take the risk. Fact is, though, that if everyone refused to buy health insurance the cost of all medical stuff would go down. People behave differntly when they pay for something themselves than when they perceive someone else is paying for it. So - I would PROHIBIT third party payments for health care other than true insurance, for catastrophic events. Everything else, pay from your pocket, cut out the insurance companies and watch the prices come down. Yes, there would need to be some adjustments for certain chronic conditions but overall, this would be the single biggest step we could take to bring down the cost of health care. |
01-15-2008, 08:56 PM | #3 (permalink) |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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I have always been more of a proponent of sliding scale (based on income, family size, etc) health care, that would have a minimum level and eventually a maximum. While 10% of someone's $25,000 annual income may not seem much to some, 10% of someone's $1,000,000 annual income is quite a bit for the same service. So they should have a maximum pay where the sliding scale tops out at.
I think healthy people should have certain incentives, like safe drivers. However, that poses a serious potential problem. If I am sick and I don't want my health care premiums to go up, I don't see a doctor.... but if those problems get worse and I went from bronchitis where some antibiotics and Albuterol would have cleared it up relatively cheap to now having pneumonia and it costing the insurance and myself a lot more, was staying away worth it? I really like a sliding scale, where no one except the financial department knows how much you are paying and there is no mention of insurance at all. That way the hospital doctors will do what they need to do, not what is covered and the bare minimum. Now, if you want insurance to supplement what you would have to pay... I think that something would eventually appear in the market for people to buy.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
01-15-2008, 11:02 PM | #4 (permalink) |
Insane
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Mandatory employer-provided health care is not a solution to the problem we face.
The driving factor behind the health care issue is cost. Cost cannot be reduced so long as we insist on centering our care finances on a bloated insurance industry that only spends 40-60% of what we pay into it on our health care. The insurance industry is grossly inefficient by any measure, and making purchase of insurance mandatory will not give them any incentive to become more efficient--quite the opposite. Employer-provided health care is a relic of the past and puts our companies at disadvantage when facing competition in the global markets. Enforcing it through making it mandatory or making such a system the center-piece of a health care solution is not a real solution. Costs will continue to hobble us, no matter how we hide them. Make no mistake, health-care benefits are not a gift from your employer. They are your employer spending your wages on insurance. Granted, there are some tax implications because they are not technically wages, but the fact is that is YOUR money being spent on those benefits. Those premiums are coming out of YOUR pocket. Opposite to making insurance companies a mandatory part of the equation, I support making them a purely optional part of the equation. How? By having a universal comprehensive single-payer system to ensure basic health care needs for all people. That way if you want to go above and beyond this level, you can opt into an insurance program to defer costs. Insurance companies will no longer have the sword of Damocles to hang over consumers, since having insurance will no longer mean risking one's basic health, but instead be a merely voluntary item for those seeking more costly optional benefits. Single-payer universal comprehensive health care: - Employers are not hobbled by the cost and administration of health insurance programs. - Elimination of the Insurance Industry black hole (savings of as much 4% of our GNP off the top) - End of most current labor disputes (most strikes in the last decade have centered on health benefits) - Drastic reduction in personal bankruptcies (more than 50% currently are direct result of medical bills) - Vast improvement in national health rates due to coverage extension to all Americans. Mandatory employer-provided coverage (or individually-provided for that matter) will not achieve any of the above benefits. |
01-16-2008, 11:11 AM | #5 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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why did the government make seat belts mandatory?
It wasn't to 'save lives', it was to save money for the insurance industry. Same reason for making auto insurance mandatory, it was to create wealth for the insurance industry. mandatory health insurance is only going to create more wealth for yet another insurance industry.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
01-16-2008, 11:36 AM | #6 (permalink) |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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Once the decision is made that everyone must be provided health care, I don't see how keeping the insurance companies in the loop can be cost effective. Wouldn't they just be middlemen taking in profits that could be spent to provide better care?
As far as controlling costs, I think loquitur has a good point. As long as people with insurance do not care what the overall cost is there will be no competitive reason for providers to lower prices. I read recently that the average person now gets 14 prescriptions a year. I don't think I have had that many in my life. We are becoming a nation of drug users and the doctors are our suppliers. I wonder just how many of these pills are really necessary. |
01-16-2008, 11:42 AM | #7 (permalink) | |
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01-16-2008, 12:20 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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01-16-2008, 07:35 PM | #11 (permalink) | |
I Confess a Shiver
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... Why can't the US just "get with it" like Canada / Europe? I'll take their brand of mediocrity over ours any day. |
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01-16-2008, 07:51 PM | #12 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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01-16-2008, 09:19 PM | #14 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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I think the insurance pricing has more to do with ridiculous law suits and such, that is the shit that drives up the premiums.
Also oral health and dentistry is ridiculous. Are you telling me that $20 worth of metal in my mouth and a few 20 minute check ups annually were worth thousands of dollars to correct my janky teeth? The government would be smart to regulate the shit rather than making it mandatory.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
01-17-2008, 04:08 AM | #15 (permalink) | ||||||||
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I also want to examine why it is that other posters here almost never offer opinions "in synch" with those financially backed by Coors, Koch, Olin, Scaife, et al, foundations. I think it is more than a coincidence, don't you? Let us examine who the leading critic of medical malpractice litigation, and malpractice plaintiff attorneys is, and where his funding comes from. Wouldn't you expect it to come largely from medical malpractice insurers and medical practitioners who pay the insurance premiums? I would, but that is not where Walter Olson's funding is coming from, is it? Note how often manhattan institute "fellow", Walter Olson's name appears on the lsit here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort_re...ted_references Examine the funding....from just nine "grantors" to the manhattan institute, at the next two links: http://www.mediatransparency.org/rec...ecipientID=198 http://www.corpreform.com/2003/11/the_manhattan_i.html Walter Olson maintains several websites, designed to dominate the position that you embrace, Mojo.... Here's Walter Olson, in an article in a 2004 TFP post, cited by Ustwo, just the other day: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...=130156&page=2 (in post #47 ) Quote:
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Every opinion the foundations listed above, pay for, are opinions with no populist support, because....they are anti populist....they have to be subsidized and distributed by entities cosmetically altered to appear to be populist, scholarly, authorative, trustworthy...just like.....the pentagon, ala Rendon and "the Lincoln Group", and the "Bloggers Roundtable" ! Quote:
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01-17-2008, 08:26 AM | #16 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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I don't want anything to be mandatory that isn't about safety.
if this comes to fruitition next thing that's going to be demanded is mandatory retirement benefits.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
01-17-2008, 09:39 AM | #18 (permalink) | ||||
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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So, are you telling me that I am misinformed Host? Some super elite council of rich white men subsidize and perpetuate a notion that frivilious law suits are the cause that drive up insurance premiums, and it is completely unfounded and false? It's merely a vast conspiracy? I'll believe you, but besides one line referring how in 06' malpractice suits evened out, which does not at all address how they spiked the several years before that, the only other thing your post touched on was these evil white men and their connections, also they fund groups sympathetic their causes .
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BUt I'm sure I'm offbase on this, it's probably has nothing to do with anything.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 01-17-2008 at 09:48 AM.. |
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01-17-2008, 09:57 AM | #19 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
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Mojo please see the following news articles on insurance premiums and lawsuits:
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These are some pretty telling statistics that seem to discount the notion that it is frivolous lawsuits that are causing the premiums to go up and point toward greed being the cause. |
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01-17-2008, 11:33 AM | #20 (permalink) | ||||||||
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01-17-2008, 04:05 PM | #22 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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From the CBO study: Quote:
IMO, in the short term, employer-based programs may still be the most practical, with tax (and other) incentives to small businesses to provide basic coverage to all employees. In the longer term, single payer may be the most cost-effective solution.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-17-2008 at 04:11 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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01-17-2008, 04:22 PM | #23 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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I don't understand. Will mandatory health insurance just raise the overall price of health insurance for all? Would it mean that the insurance companies can then set any price they like, knowing that we, have to purchase it because it is mandatory?
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01-17-2008, 04:56 PM | #24 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Greater Boston area
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the only thing i see coming out of mandatory health insurance is another over-bloated government entity that will suck even more money out of my pockets.
the general population is the only one to point fingers at about the spiraling cost of healthcare. generally speaking we are fat and lazy. poor diets and a lack of exercise. everyone looking for a pill to cure everything. the problem isnt going to go away till the root causes are addressed. |
01-17-2008, 07:16 PM | #25 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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What additional costs are created by the uninsured population?Mandatory health insurance does not necessarily mean a bloated government entity, particularly in a transition period with a reliance on employer based health insurance. The federal government is the largest employer in the country and government workers have a choice between numerous plans from Care First (blue cross/blue shield) to various HMOs and PPos and other options. There is no government bureaucracy. A health pool for those small employers who currently do not provide coverage come be administered in a similar manner. An expanded SCHIP program, administered by the states, not a federal bureaucracy, could cover other working poor. Health care costs will be more manageable when we are all not paying for the uninsured who are presently working w/o insurance, when there is a greater emphasis on educating consumers on the cost effectiveness of preventive rather than remedial treatment, and when the entire system is overhauled to be more technology driven.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-17-2008 at 07:35 PM.. Reason: added NCHC data |
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01-17-2008, 09:04 PM | #26 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Greater Boston area
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small businesses banding together to help defray the cost is an excellent idea. maybe offering tax incentives will prompt a majority of them to comply, but again, who is going to check and make sure they are complying? Quote:
there are too many unhealthy individuals in this country with too few hospitals, physicians and nurses to care for them. to me this sounds like the typical American obsession with quick fixes. lets not ID the root causes and fix those. lets throw a band-aid on it so all the important people can stand in front of the cameras and say "look what i did for you." |
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01-18-2008, 08:50 AM | #27 (permalink) |
Junkie
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Let's assume we did make it mandatory... how are the homeless going to afford it? What about unemployed or extremely poor people? Who is going to pay when the insurance companies deny coverage because it is a "previous condition"?
The health insurance industry is a bunch of crooks that are fleecing America. The last thing we need to do is give them a government sanction. |
01-18-2008, 09:33 AM | #28 (permalink) |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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Once you give government that control and they make insurance mandatory, you then give them control over YOUR life.
Surveys will come out saying, "this food causes cancer and costs insurance company millions." Government will ban that food. It's fucking bullshit to give government so much damned control in our lives. They have enough control and we keep forfeiting rights over to them in the name of "helping" or "public safety". We are a country that worries more about the petty shit than we do the real problems. Not that health care isn't a problem, it is, but if we make it "mandatory" or we give government too much control it will pendulum over to where the solution is a bigger problem, but we are stuck with it. Why not put tax money to better use, initiatives to better use by creating jobs, opening true small business loans, give corporations incentives and tax write offs if they offer employees better wages and benefits. Come on people, let's look for solutions that don't require us giving government more fucking power.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
01-18-2008, 09:37 AM | #29 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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01-18-2008, 06:43 PM | #30 (permalink) | |||
Crazy
Location: a little to the right
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In heaven all the interesting people are missing. Friedrich Nietzsche |
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01-18-2008, 08:22 PM | #31 (permalink) | |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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I don't like the idea of having to pay (what happens if I take a year off work and don't make any money? Do I still have to pay, or am I covered by others?)
But I still think that the universal route with different levels of care based on how much you pay and how healthy you are would be a good route. And there needs to be a set of defined procedures that are covered. I liked this article though. http://www.investors.com/editorial/e...84257033287107 Quote:
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01-19-2008, 01:15 AM | #32 (permalink) | |||
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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Tax abatements? Price controls? People will still be paying from already tight budgets. I think this would be economic suicide for them. Quote:
The problem with giving the government total control, even in the name of helping, is that you open the door for them to take away choices, personal freedoms and rights (excuse me "privileges" because my eating Dorito's, smoking and sitting around the house on my days off are "privileges" not rights... or so they will be defined someday). The sad thing is the government will take away those "privileges" in a heartbeat if they can sell the people a good reason as to why they are. It's no, not, never government's "right" or "duty" to take away any personal choices, rights or freedoms. But it seems people are becoming more and more okay with them doing so and buying into the reasons why it is okay government does. Quote:
So instead of truly working on a way to solve the problem, we'll just have government make people pay for a new expense they won't be able to afford. I have yet to see or hear one person either here or in real life tell me why a sliding scale system won't work. If you have insurance keep it, use it. If you don't or are maxed out, we have a sliding scale so that you can still get the treatment you need.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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01-19-2008, 03:29 AM | #33 (permalink) | ||||
Crazy
Location: a little to the right
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The 47 million uninsured figure that gets bandied about are not the poor and indigent, these are people who don't qualify for public assistance who cannot afford to buy an individual plan and whose employers don't offer plans. As for raw price there's several mechanisms at work. The millions of extra payers decreases risk and depresses prices for consumers. The government's leverage in price negotiation depresses prices for consumers and gives the insurance greater leverage in negotiating reimbursement rates with providers. People who are unable to pay the new lower rate are given waivers/tax breaks/reimbursements, etc. Quote:
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Second, it's still an artificial limitation on access. People are dissuaded from seeking preventative care or any care until they absolutely need it, which drives up cost and burden on providers, which is passed on to consumers, not to mention a decrease in quality of life and economic productivity. Third, the percentage of settled claims for uninsured patients is extremely low. Regardless of the reason for that, it's a reality, and when providers are losing money on the uninsured they're less willing/able to reduce their reimbursement rates from insurance. Any health care scheme is going to have problems, and mandating privatized insurance is fraught with them, but it's a start, it is an improvement over what we have currently, and given the last 20 years of legislation I believe this is the best that can be done right now.
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In heaven all the interesting people are missing. Friedrich Nietzsche |
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01-19-2008, 05:02 AM | #34 (permalink) | ||||||||||
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<h3>It's all bullshit, pan !!!!</h3> ...paid for by the same f*ckers who paid for the "Harry and Louise ads", in reaction toHillary Clinton's attempt to "reform" healthcare, 15 yeara ago. Read ASU2003's post, preceding yours;specifically the "Investors BS daily" EDITORIAL that he posted a linked excerpt from, and compare what it stated to what we actually know: Here is the UK healthcare system, a government managed and financed, "single payer" system, the pride of the British people. Investors BS daily's propagandist must have worked OT, to get this to appear as he so negatively wrote about it: Quote:
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http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all a millionaire who transferrred father's valuable farmland to himself and his brother, a transaction listed as $10, before sending the elderly man to live far away, in a home for indigent former firemen..... Quote:
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01-19-2008, 08:26 AM | #35 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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01-19-2008, 02:01 PM | #36 (permalink) | |
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01-19-2008, 03:00 PM | #37 (permalink) | |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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However once the decision is made to provide care for everyone then keeping the insurance companies in the loop seems almost like a protection scheme and would rake in billions of dollars which could probably be better spent. The insurance companies seem to be trying to keep costs down by negotiating prices, refusing claims whenever possible and denying coverage to people with existing health problems but costs continue to rise faster than inflation. The question is will total government control make things any better or do we need the insurance companies to continue their role as the middleman to try and control the prices that health care providers charge.. |
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01-19-2008, 06:42 PM | #38 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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01-19-2008, 06:51 PM | #39 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Edit: Ah, found my old link. The US pays $5,711 per capita for healthcare. Canada? About half that at $2,989. Last edited by Willravel; 01-19-2008 at 07:10 PM.. |
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01-19-2008, 08:58 PM | #40 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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That chart is misleading and doesn't really mean anything to the average tax payers. I provide health care for my employees and yet that would show up on your chart the same way a tax would on my employees as its just % of GDP.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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feel, health, insurance, mandatory |
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