pan6467

This is what is wrong with this country:

Link:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070321/...ed_prosecutors


We have the Dems. looking at this as a way to get Bush, Bush going totally power mad.

Yes, Bush has gone too far and needs to be spanked. But I foresee a replay of Clinton's years where nothing gets done to forward the nation.

Bush needs to do 1 of 4 things....

Crown himself Holy Emperor discharge Congress and just do away with the games, just tell everyone you want total control George and stop playing the games at tax payer's costs.

admit problems and WORK with Congress so that issues can be dealt with fastly and they can all move on and do what we elected them to do,

just resign and admit you had no idea what happened but you take responsibility

or continue what you are doing, not getting anything done, spending BILLIONS upon BILLIONS by the time this is all over and lose any chance your party has to get the Presidency or Congress back in '08.

What happened to Presidents and Congresses that actually worked and put out bills that were meant to help the country.

Now, all they care about is fighting each other.... nothing gets done and we continue to freefall..... while they all play their fiddles and watch Rome burn.

IT'S ENOUGH..... GET WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE DONE AND RUN THE FUCKING COUNTRY ALREADY....... DO WHAT WE PUT YOU INTO OFFICE TO DO!!!!!!!!!

In the words of Howard Beale (played by Peter Finch) in the classic movie Network...................

To wit I open my window in cyberspace............... and I shout (this isn't just to Bush but ALL elected officials, regardless of party, abusing their power). Anyone care to join me???????? come on now don't be shy...............



GODAMNIT I'M FUCKING MAD AS HELL AND I REFUSE TO TAKE IT ANYMORE............ I AM A HUMAN BEING THIS IS MY COUNTRY AND I REFUSE TO LET ANYMORE DUMB FUCKING INSANE EGO MANIACAL BASTARDS RUN IT.... IF YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER TO THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR YOU..... YOU NEED KICKED OUT AND TRIED FOR TREASON, BECAUSE YOU HOLD THE FAITH TRUST AND SAFETY OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AND YOU SHIT ON THEM...... FUCK YOU AND WE DESERVE BETTER, WE NEED BETTER AND WE WANT BETTER GO FUCK YOURSELF



Management does not necessarily hold these views and is deeply sorry if anyone is offended by the language and attitude.... perhaps we should just play fucking elevator happy music for you and we should just sit the fuck down and shut up....... we now return you to you thread and ohhhh have a nice day.....

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Astrocloud

I'm not mad. I just see Bush as I've always seen him -as a cheesy salesman. He's not half as dangerous as the idiots that buy his shit.

pan6467

That's not the point. The point is we put these people in office to run the country, instead they are going to spend BILLIONS upon BILLIONS on hearings about Bush and abuse of power.... while those tax dollars could help the country in better ways, while they themselves could be actually working on bills that help the nation and the people and Bush could stop playing ego games and stop abusing his power.

But do they want that??????

Nooooooo they want to hold hearings spend all this money and not get anything of true value to this nation done.

It's time this was stopped and these fucking bastards do what we elected them to do and stop playing power games and partisan politics.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

host

pan, with all due respect, I know enough about why it is that it is reasonable and accurate to say that the congress, via the efforts of committee chairmen with oversight responsibilities has a responsibility, on behalf of the interests of the American people that it represents, to investigate what is going on here.

Read the links in the description at this link:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/013166.php

....and when I read this, in the description at the preceding link......
....I shuddered:
because.....
In these circumstances, as they involve the integrity of the justice system, we need to know pan, and in a republic with a representative government, it is our right, and the duty of our elected representatives, to use all legal powers accorded to them, to try and find out.

It is supposed to be "messy", and that is nothing to shrink from. You mentioned that you prefer that congress legislate and not investigate. We just experienced at least 4 years of no investigation, are we better off because of it? Without the restoration of constitutional checks and balances, why pass new bills into law, without finding if the provisions of the existing body of laws are being evenhandedly and vigorously enforced?

pan6467

No Host, I WANT Congress to investigate and I WANT Bush to cooperate and get this mess over with. But from the OP's linked article Bush is going to play games and power plays and Congress is going to have to come to a standstill while they investigate and NOTHING will get done.

This is both sides fault.... (moreso the GOP because they have let Bush get this far when they controlled Congress) and it needs to end.

What I am trying to say is that I am sick and tired of the bullshit power plays and the ego maniacal assholes we allow to sit in office and do nothing but play games.

This is my country, this is not what I deserve to have happen nor is it where my tax dollars should have to go.

I think Bush needs to cooperate with Congress and get this mess dealt with and start rebuilding this nation. I stated in the OP what I feel Bush's 4 options are and to save time and money he needs to do one of them, and then we the people need to make the choice if we accept his decision or not.

Personally, I feel he needs to resign or be impeached in a very fast and timely manner. But neither of those will happen, Congress will be at a standstill, Billions upon billions of tax dollars will be spent and NOTHING will be done to truly help rebuild this country..... in fact programs will get cut because the money that was earmarked for them got spent for the investigations and powerplays.

I think we deserve politicians who put partisan politics aside and do what is best for this country and not for their party or themselves as individuals. Especially a president.... a president needs to be a uniter and to share hope.... not a divider and spread hate.

Hence I say again:

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

host

I was revising the part of my last post that you quoted, so it has changed since you quoted me in your post. I misunderstood you, now that I read that you want all parties to cooperate in an investigation....

My last post revision describes the fact that the LA US atty who was investigating the former chairman of the congressional committee, Jerry Lewis,
that Duke Cunningham served on....Duke and Lewis were close.....quit on her own, last fall, and went to work at the law firm that is representing Lewis, and that Ted Olson and that former US Atty are two of the three at that law firm who chair it's "Crisis Management Group".....

Superbelt

Pan, I agree. I'm one who was very happy when Nancy stated they wouldn't be pursuing impeachment hearings when the Democrats took power. I want them to actually work on getting things done. It's been well over a decade that a we've had a legislature with a decidedly conservative bent in control and here we are finally with a change and it looks like a total stop on all new business to take care of administrative malfeasance.

Cynthetiq

I don't care. I can't control it and I'm not going to pretend that I can. I will just do that part that I can, which is exercise my vote and contact my representatives and senators. That's it, anything else is just spinning wheels and making myself aggravated.

All professional politicians suck in my opinion.

Also in my opinion my local NY Community Board 3 has more impact on my day to day life than Mr. Bush ever will.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

I agree as well with the underlying concern but not with the overexaggerated rhetoric.
The oversight investigations will hardly cost BILLIONS and BILLIONS. The independent Whitewater investigation cost about $80 million and the numerous Congressional (mostly House Repub) investigations of Clinton cost about $15-20 million...so lets not get carried away. BTW, during those investigations, Clinton allowed 31 top White House officials to testify on 47 different occasions, including his Deputy Chief of Staff (same as Rove) and Counsel to the President (same as Harriet Myers). Nothing could be more in the interest of the American people than the restoration of Congressional oversight that had been MIA for six years.

The 110th Congress is capable of multi-tasking. While it fulfills its oversight responsibilities, it has and will continue to work on legislation that will help the country as well as restore the balance of power between the branches. One only need look at the first two months of the new Congress - minimum wage legislation, rollbacks of tax breaks and subisdies to big oil companies and replacing it with new tax breaks for renewable energy sources, restoration of the Freedom of Information Act, restoration of habeas corpus and the rule of law regarding prisoner treatment, Congressional ethics reform, Medicare prescription drug reform (to require price negotiation by pharmaceutical companies), a new stem cell research bill, homeland security measures (enhanced rail and chemical/nuclear facility security, first responder communications interoperability), and just this week, a bi-partisan bill to make immediate improvements in the treatment of wounded vets returning from Iraq.....not bad for 2 months work.

The question is how often Bush will veto.

THe only act that would further divide the country and really stop Congress from doing its business would be an impeachment investigation...unless or until there is a real "smoking gun".

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

The_Jazz

To echo dc_dux (up to a point), multitasking is generally the case in any Congress. "Billions" aren't going to get spent on this investigation, and other things will get accomplished. If Bush stonewalls, the legislative process won't grind to a halt. It will occupy the headlines without a doubt, but the worker bees in Congress (i.e. the staffers) will continue their tasks unabated.

Should Bush be impeached? I say no, if for no other reason than it would really grind things to a halt and distract the country from other things. I also wonder how it would affect nations that have never been friendly to us and those that only recently became friendly. I don't really believe that we can "send messages" to terrorists, but impeachment would probably be the exception to that rule.

Congress has a duty to investigate. Honestly, some of the investigations should have happened years ago but were held up because of partisan politics. Unfortunately, it's taking partisan politics to correct that oversite.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

mixedmedia

I tend to agree with you on a lot of things, pan, up to a point. But I don't see how, in this situation, Democrats are being difficult. This is an issue that needs to be looked at and the White House is being intentionally disrespectful of the process to save itself from further scrutiny of its political monkeyshines. Congress should not be having to demand testimonies under oath. It's hardly their fault if they have to.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

roachboy

well, if you are going to quote "network" then you should also quote this speech, which to my mind is the finest thing in the film--ned beatty's little chat:

edit: i dont see congress as asking anything outrageous from the administration. i see an arrogant, incompetent president with a truly problematic philosophy of executive power being called to account for one of any number of self-generated problems. and while i think that stalinist-style purging of prosecutors is problematic, it certainly is not the worst crisis these buffoons have created for themselves. maybe the administration sees itself as drawing defensive lines in the sand over this issue as much in anticipation of other, graver scandals to follow. and while this is not the confrontation i would personally prefer to see the administration called out on (from the viewpoint of my armchair), i nonetheless am glad to see these folk--and their legal philosophy concerning executive power--starting--FINALLY--to come under some pressure. i think that legal philosophy dangerous and welcome any and all challenges to it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pig

yeah roach, i wouldn't be surprised if the administration wanted to use this issue, where its actual losses would probably be fairly minimal, as a testing grounds for legal defense theories, so to speak. give 'em an inch, they'll take a yard and so forth.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

pan6467

From the replies so far, I get, "it's nothing to worry about" "Won't cost Billions upon billions" "Not the Dems fault" "You're overreacting" "Congress can multitask"....

Really?

So all this is ok?

Bush basically says, "Fuck you Congress, no one has to testify under oath." Congress is saying "Oh yes they will."

And it is all good?

BULLSHIT!

We shouldn't have gotten this far, we don't deserve this and it's time we the people stand up and say "ENOUGH".

This is going to cost BILLIONS in lawsuits and in Congress work stoppages. This will be Congress' main focus and very little will get done and we will sit idly by and continue to make excuses why this is ok.

It is not ok. We should not have to go this far. We should not have a president that wants to push the boundaries and we should have a Congress strong enough to bitch slap the man down.

Instead, we sit back, we accept it, we make excuses, we say it's ok, and we just don't truly care.

All I'm saying is enough is enough. None of this will change, in fact it will keep getting worse, partisan politics will continue to split us apart until we get mad enough and demand change. But then it may be too late, the damage may be irreversible.

It's time......It's time to take our country back, to stand up, take notice and demand better from our politicians.

With the above OP Bush is definitely not putting the nation over his own personal wants.... and that is wrong.

We need to stop this insanity and get people in Washington that put the nation's interests first before their own. We need to stop being apathetic and ok with this type of behaviors from our elected officials.

I'd rather over react to soon, demand these people do the job they were elected to do, and put forth better ideas, plans and rebuild America.... before it is too late and I can't react at all.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

shakran

Check


1) how would you propose to "spank" him if we don't get the evidence required to do so?

2) Nothing is going to get done to forward the nation anyway. We're not talking about a smart or capable leader. We're talking about Bush here. His only interest is in deluding himself that it's possible for him to still win in Iraq. That's all he's focused on.


Be nice if he did that, but then it'd be nice if Michael Jackson wasn't a child molesting lunatic. Some people are just who they are.


That won't happen. This is one man who fundamentally cannot admit that his vision is wrong.

That's exactly what's going to happen, with one caveat. If the dems get stupid and float Clinton for president, I think they stand an excellent chance of losing. I for one would not vote for her.

You mean like Clinton and his universal healthcare plan? Or Clinton and his slashes to the deficit? I'll tell you what happened. Partisan hacks spent millions of dollars and wasted years of time trying to get him for stupid crap instead of sitting back and acknowledging that the man was getting shit done.

The "republicans" (I use that word in quotes because the idiots in government right now are not republicans, but are neo-conservatives masquerading as republicans) are solidly, 100%, firmly in the wrong here. Are you suggesting that in the name of "getting things done" the democrats should just roll over and let the neo-cons have their way?

roachboy

i dont follow your argument, pan.

1. how do you manage to see in congressional actions--subpoenas for example, which were approved by the house judiciary subcommittee this morning--how are these actions the problem?
i would argue that the source of the present tempest is squarely the administration. the politically motivated elimination of prosecutors is the occasion--but the real issue is the extent to which this administration is committed to a maximal understanding of executive power--and the sub-issue is the previous congress that, because controlled by the right, went along with this understanding--so at bottom, the source of this problem is the administration's legal philosophy, the administration's inability to make separations between its legal claims and its political objectives, the contempt for the legislative that this position is shot through with, etc.

if this becomes a court fight, the responsibility for that also lay entirely with the administration--and it follows in a straight line from their position on executive power--as does the administration's expansive view of executive privelege, which is the other issue at play in this fight.

so i dont see your reasoning: how do you manage to blame congress for this?

if on the other hand, what you are really saying is that the administration really should be removed from power, then i'd tend to agree with you in principle, even as short of revolt there is no way to remove them. such is the nature of american "democracy" and its let-the-rabble-be-free-once-every-4-years m.o.

but i dont think you are saying that. i think that all you are looking at is the likelihood of a court fight and you are blaming congress for it.


2. i understand even less you call to action. what exactly would you have folk do--and by that i mean the folk here, the ones who read your call to action--you know, the participants in a messageboard community--what exactly are you calling for from us?

3. i also dont understand how using the word fuck alot means that the content of a given thread contains "adult sentiments" but that's probably a matter of personal style more than anything else.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pan6467

RB, I'm not saying it is Congress's fault ....

Am I not clear here? Are people only reading what they want?

Are you reading more into what I am trying very hard to plainly type out?

Shakran has it he understands

I am stating that I am tired and fed up with the bullshit and we need to take our country back. We need to stand up demand from our politicians people with true plans, that put forth ideas and actually work to better the country than have to police each other.

For the last time: I UNDERSTAND WE NEED TO POLICE BUSH..... BUT IT SHOULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN THIS FAR AND I AM SHOUTING OUT THAT WE DEMAND CHANGE SO WE NEVER HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS AGAIN.

I am yelling that we need to put in people that actually want to better this nation and not play games and just fight for power for powers sake.

I am yelling so that enough people can say they are fed up also and they want change so that hopefully there will be enough voices in '08 we'll actually see positive changes.

I am yelling because my kids deserve to be left a better nation and not inherit presidents that can't do anything because the party in congress is investigating their every move.... or a president that can do anything because congress is of the same party and they won't stand up to his illegal power plays.

I never want to have politicians in office where we have to worry about these things again. I want our politicians to actually...... DO THEIR FUCKING JOBS.

Yes, Congress has to do what they have to do, yes, Bush is going to fight it.... this should not be happening.... if Bush truly cared about this country and wanted the best done he would be willing to work with Congress and not be threatening lawsuits in courts he placed his people and controls.

We need change, we need to get people mad enough and voicing they want change..... otherwise we may as well end it all right now and let the next president be crowned dictator for life, because at the rate we're going it won't be long until we see it happen anyway.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

This is symptomatic of government having too much power and the public not being involved enough with politics. The populace has the power to remove Bush from office. We can do it tomorrow, if you'd like, but it'd take millions of people turning off American Idol for a second and taking responsibility. Pan, I respect you a great deal because you're passionate about justice. Do everywhere what you've done here. Get people rilled up. Get them interested, or at least aware. I do it almost every day myself. If enough people can cause enough awareness, things can get done.

Bush will be untouchable as long as we aren't hungry for justice. Let your fire burn a few people enough for them to come out of their trances for a second.

When the British were taxing us but not allowing representation in their government, we fought back. If people finally understand that they've lost their grip of control on government to a certain extent, an extent that could directly effect them, they can be incited to act.

pan6467

By George, you've got it Will!!!!!!!! I was worried, I was going nuts or inable to communicate the gist of what I was trying to convey. THANK YOU .....

It's time to get people out of their sleep and active and demanding better before it is too late.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

flstf

I don't know enough about this issue to judge the merits of the hearings, investigations, etc.. but I suspect our polititians are more interested in political gain than in doing what is right for the country. Perhaps the two coincide.

Maybe it is because of the news coverage, but I think what pan is upset with is that so much effort seems to be taken up with this issue and we hardly hear of any effort being put into important issues like social security, health care, immigration, etc.. I think most polititians would rather not address these hard to solve, controversial problems especially since us voters do not seem to withhold our votes when they don't.

pan6467

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's time we stopped putting in people that have to push boundaries and make power plays and then everyone else has to stop and play games.

It's time we get solutions and people in office that want to work on bettering the country and not play these fucking games at tax payers expense so they can get their name in the paper so when they don't get reelected or they retire they get a cushy job at some lobbyists office.

It's time to wake up, stand up and shout to be heard.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

It's on those rare occasions that political gain and the common good combine that things usually get done.

roachboy

ok pan.

i understood what there was to understand about your op when i read through it.
i even agree with the sentiment, to a certain extent.

but...again...what exactly are you calling for people to do?

you seem to be under the impression that the american pseudo-democratic system is set up to accomodate the kind of waking-up process you point to--but it isn't. "we the people" have political power one day every other year. one day every 4 if the presidency is the problem, as it is now.

yet you insist that "we" do something.

ok.... the reason i posted ned beatty's speech from network as over against your biting of peter finch's "we're mad as hell..." speech is simple: when push came to shove in the film, it was beatty's character who laid down the law--it is ned beatty's character who outlines something of the actual order of things.
and the problem was not the rousing of people from their customary torpor to yell out the window--that was harmless and what is more, it was good for ratings.
the problem came when finch's character started attacking advertisers and that because, by making that move he attacked the commerical underpinnings of the network itself, and by extension he was attacking the system for which that network stands, in the name of which it operated, for the benefit of which it functioned.

so as a film, "network" is far less naive than you are, and far less naive than you make it out to be.

if you are serious, you need to shift into trying to understand how the system itself operates--you know, capitalism. in its present form. which is the beast that is the "natural order" of things. and it is that order for which the oligarchy stands, regardless of the various phases of internal turbulence. like this one, the one that has you in a twist.

and if you are serious, you should understand that you are starting to travel outside the space of conventional political remedies, and are, whether you realize it or not, proposing something quite radical.
if it were not quarantined within the limited and limiting space of a messageboard, you could be understood as calling for something on the order of a social revolution--a wholesale withdrawal of consent from underneath the existing order.

but instead, it seems that you are--or could be---calling for a new type of interest group politics that would have people gathering in a single place to yell "we're mad as hell..."
but the problem with that is that once you say it---"we're mad as hell...", there's nothing left to say.
you don't really offer any coherent countervision.
and you cant because you've convinced yourself that you are a political centrist. so instead, you are forced--and i mean forced--to limit yourself to saying things like "do your job."

without some understanding of the system--the mode of production in marx-speak--and of the position that the political order we endure and maybe lives under occupies within that order--you can't say anything different. and claims rooted in attempts to think about that order itself are exactly the kind of claim that, in other contexts, you have attempted to rule out of discussion.

but i suspect that were you to organize a movement of people who are, like you, "mad as hell and aren't going to take it any more" you'd stand a reasonable chance of getting on television because that sort of anger--the sort that offers as a vision of what is possible simply a slightly altered version of what already exists--that would be good for ratings.

i'd say go for it, pan. organize something. do it.

but in this space, where there is no organization to be done, it seems fair to ask: what do you actually want?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dc_dux

Pan...what outrages you so much about what this Congress has done (or not done) in its first 2 months?

I'll repeat them again - minimum wage legislation, rollbacks of tax breaks and subisdies to big oil companies and replacing it with new tax breaks for renewable energy sources, restoration of the Freedom of Information Act, restoration of habeas corpus and the rule of law regarding prisoner treatment, Congressional ethics reform, Medicare prescription drug reform (to require price negotiation by pharmaceutical companies), a new stem cell research bill, homeland security measures (enhanced rail and chemical/nuclear facility security, first responder communications interoperability), and just this week, a bi-partisan bill to make immediate improvements in the treatment of wounded vets returning from Iraq.

What more could they have done in such a short time? IMO, the only area in which they fallen short of the expectations of those who put them in office is with the Iraq war...a difficult issue where there is not consensus among the majority party on the best alternative to "stay the course and surge".

Your "ideal" Congress has never existed and shouting from your window wont make it happen, nor will screaming that we need to elect more "idealistic" politicians who act only on the best interest of the country (as defined by who?)..another impossible task.

I agree about the apathy of most Americans, but IMO, the best way to get more people involved is not with a blanket condemnation of all current politicians, but to focus on the issue(s) that touch the people around you directly..be it the war, the economy, social justice, And in a more rational way, explain why it is in their interest to become more active citizens.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

I think the idea is to identify the 'for else' in the statement 'do your job or else'. We do have the power to take certain legal or illegal actions in order to force the government to do what it's supposed to do. The question, as rb pointed out, was what's your preference? Armed revolt? Blackmail? Mass protests? Smear campaigns? Going to the top of a tall building and demanding things threatening to jump?

flstf

Is it too far-fetched to think that there may be some polititians who will choose to operate outside the standard oligarchy and that there may be many voters to support them? I don't think it is entirely futile to complain that they (and we) are not addressing the most important issues even if we don't completely understand the system.

Of course we may not agree with the results of our current polititians' solutions, but that is another subject.

dc_dux

The religious extemists on the right scream and shout "do it our way or else". The equally extremists MoveOn.org on the left scream and shout "do it our way or else" and the vast majority is turned off by both.

There are way to educate and involve a greater number of citizens but screaming and shouting "do it my way or else" is not the answer. It starts with a more educated citizenry and you dont educate through intimidation. BTW, whatever happened to teaching civics in the public schools. That would certainly be part of a longer-term solution. In the short term, I dont have answers, other than focus on particular issues, make your voice heard in a rational manner among those who share your concerns, and call and write your members of Congress and encourage those around you to do the same.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

flstf

Not so much just the recently elected polititians but I would like to see them all address the following:

Health Care - (my position: nationalize health care)
Social Security - (my position: privatize and simplify it)
Immigration - (my position: deport illegals, fine the companies)

Whether they enact what I want or not, I would at least like them to try and solve these problems instead of just ignoring them because they are too controversial and may cost them votes.

roachboy

fistf: what i am arguing is that pan's positions may well take him well outside the space that he has customarily defined as his own--the politial center--and that this movement would also have to be one of information base(s)... if i understand its direction correctly--that is, if i am not expressing a kind of sympathetic projection onto what pan is saying rooted in my own dispositions---among the informational base-changes that would be entailed is a distance from (and situating of) the dominant political discourse, the integration of other registers of information into how you think about political questions, and the working-out of some kind of meta-schema that would enable you to integrate these registers of information. and all this would be of a piece with the process of fashioning a sense of alternate possibilities.

and no, i dont see a whole lot of hope for politicians stepping out of the social context that enables them to be politicians in the first place. the "outsider" persona that worked for jimmy carter and for the present occupant of that office is in many ways a sham, standing in for a particular mode of faction-rotation within the oligarchy (rather than posing any challenge to it).

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Elphaba

Pan, I don't know if Luce mentioned it but I saved some links to send to you that I thought you might appreciate. You have now given me a topic that makes them relevant to your subject. Like you, fairness and justice are ingrained in the whole of my value system. And also like you, I must constantly struggle with my impatience with the pondering machine that is our government. As your "elder", I am going to make the dubious assumption that I have gained a bit more patience and perspective over time than you have.

As an individual, I recognize that my power to enact significant change is minimal at best, but it is far better than doing nothing in helpless resignation. Joining with like minded people increases my power as the size of the group increases. I consider myself a fiscal conservation and a social progressive, rather than a centrist, but I still must get off the fence and choose a group that most closely meets what I believe needs to be accomplished now. What now passes for conservatism no longer meets my conservative values, so I have chosen to attempt to enact change with the progressive movement.

I recently ran across a very proactive list of things that I can do as an individual and as part of a group that I believe will ultimately improve our Republic. It is the output of a group of progressives and I agree with most, but not all, of what they hope to achieve. This list has given me focus and direction which is immensely empowering after so many years of perceived helplessness.

This link brings you to the page where you can find the pdf file for The Democracy Protection Act. The pdf is 68 pages long, but you can find a concise outline of the goals of the project on pages 8-10. I have found two items of the 40 listed that I feel strongly about and want to invest my energy. Perhaps you and others will feel the same need to act on a specific item. We cannot do it all, but we can do something. This is perhaps just one option in the call to action that you are seeking.

Pen

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

samcol

In my opinion this is another sign of the democrats being totally weak. Someone told me not to vote independent or Libertarian because the Dems have absolutely no power to hold hearings or do anything in congress. Well, looks who's in power now.

We have this administration dead in the water on fabricating Iraq intelligence, Illegal wire tapping, TORTURE, fake terror alerts, massive propaganda campaigns, and the democrats are going after the administration for firing attorneys?

Forget the misdemeanors, go after them for the hardcore felonies. This is equivelent to going after Clinton for lieing under oath instead of his REAL crimes.

Ol' Man Mose

Pan, can I use your name as my nom-de-plume to post here? An untermensch furriner like me would give his left knacker to get away with a fraction of what you said here!

I only called Bush "D-mw-t" and Presidense deifying Knights of George Bush almost got me shot a dawn by the TFT Decency Police!

It seems Aussies are counted as 3/5 human here - like the fascistic Foundling Fathers declared their "niggers" to be.

..... De Camptown ladies sing dis song, Doo-dah! doo-dah!
De Camptown race-track five miles long, Oh, doo-dah day!
I come down dah wid my hat caved in, Doo-dah! doo-dah!
I go back home wid a pocket full of tin, Oh, doo-dah day!

ONLY JOKING JAZZER!!

dc_dux

The country will survive this partisan battle, government will carry on, and Congess will do the people's business as it has throughout our history - or the people will replace them through the electorial process.

This discussion brought to mind a time from our not to distant past. The battles between Harry Truman's and the first Republican Congress in 25 years that came into power in 1946. Truman bitched for the next two years about a "do nothing" Congress...the Congress bitched about Truman and declared him a lame duck without a hope of being reelected. Partisanship was at a highly charged level. The press took sides and the bitching and moaning about the government extended out to pockets of people around the country, who had just come out of a long and costly war.

And in the summer of '48 leading up to the Presidential election:
The point? Congress and the Executive Branch, when controlled by different parties, will bitch and moan about each other..legislative work may come to a temporary standstill...but the country survives and in this case, the following decade of the 50s, it blossomed and prospered like no other time in our history..and with a Congress and White House controlled by different parties throughout the decade.

Contrary to the opening statement in the OP...there is nothing drastically wrong with the country that cant be fixed within the framework of a governmental system that has worked successfully for two hundred years. For better or worse, partisanship is part of our democratic history. The actions of this President may be extreme and a greater threat to the Constituion (IMO) then any time in history...and as a result, the people elected a Congress to restore the proper oversight role, while carrying on important legislative business.

The country's survival is not at stake with this round of partisanship. Its not the first time and it wont be the last. Our best course of action, IMO, is for each of us to hold our elected representative accountable...and we can do that, on a personal level and through engaging and interacting with others in our own community, by being educated and involved.

Even if you dont agree with my conclusions, the Truman-"Do-Nothing" Congress battle was an interesting slice of political history!

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

DC Big difference........ there was no "investigations" and congress while it was at a standstill still tried to do something. They just didn't want Truman to get credit. I understand what you are conveying truly I do.

For those who say I am trying to rip Congress and blah blah blah.... truly read what I am saying. I am not trying to convey that.

What I am trying to convey is this. The last Congress did less work than DC's example did.

In the latter half of the 90's how many tax dollars were used to prevent Bill Clinton from doing the job he was elected to do????? (Host?) How much truly got done by that Congress?

And as pointed out above, they were bullshit reasons for stopping Congress to go after him.

I have had a truly bad day at work and am questioning the industry I am in right now.....

I'll come back and finish this.... right now I just don't care nor have the energy....... I have decisions to make and maybe some soul searching.....

Peace

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Elphaba

Samcol, I am responding to your post, but also to the whole of the Politics participants.

What makes you and anyone else believe that nothing else is going on? Two weeks ago, the count of committee driven investigations was at 52! Dayum, people! There is so much going on, but you don't notice if our press isn't on it? Why does anyone continue to count on our commercially owned press to report factually and neutrally? The eight fired US attorneys have taken up all of your attention at the expense of the privacy abuses by the FBI, reported a week ago.

My God, what does it take to hold the attention of our citizens? A friggin' week and a diversion is obviously too long to sustain our attention on another criminal violation of our privacy.

Stop bitching about what is worthy of attention and finally do something proactive for a change.

Pen

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

samcol

Again, what has the Democratic congress accomplished other than going after this administration for firing attorneys...

Pelosi already said impeachment is not on the table, when Bush has committed worse than impeachable offenses.

They are the comprimised, weak, do nothing party. Which of these 52 investigations involves impeachment and treason?

I come to my original question pre-election, why vote for Democrats over Independents or Libertarians?

If you have an answer, I'll be suprised.

I guess I'll vote Democrat next election though because apparently there are 52 investigations on the floor... (no matter that they are investigating nothing relevent)

shakran

Did you miss this?

Look, they've been there for 2 months. That's not enough time to finish everything they want to. Things don't happen instantly like they do on TV.

And that was a pretty smart move. I'll tell you why. Pelosi knows that even if they started impeachment proceedings the day they took office, there's no way they'd be able to get it done by the time Bush has to leave anyway. No. Way. Go look at the Nixon impeachment proceedings if you don't believe me. It took forever to get all the legal stonewalling taken care of before they could finally start on the actual impeachment. I recommend reading The Final Days by Woodward and Bernstein if you want to learn about all the bullshit tricks a president can pull to delay impeachment.

So maybe, if we're VERY lucky, they'll start the actual impeachment hearings a few months before his term is up. At that point Bush will pull a Nixon - he'll resign, get pardoned by Cheney, and that'll be that. He might even get creative and pardon everyone else just before he resigns.

Meanwhile the republicans will use the fact that the democrats tried to impeach him to try and show that the democrats are a bunch of foaming-at-the-mouth loonies who just want to snipe at the party in power. Comments about Republicans doing exactly the same thing will fall on deaf ears because today's republicans are a lot better than the democrats at, frankly, lying and bullshitting their way into getting people to take their side.

SO, what's the end result of this great impeachment plan that you propose? We don't get Bush at all. We don't get any of the other architects of evil in his administration. We hurt ourselves politically, and we waste one holy HELL of a lot of money in our futile attempt to kick Bush out.

Yes, he should absolutely be impeached, but it had to start long before the democrats took office for there to be a chance in hell of pulling it off without it coming back to (admittedly, unfairly) bite the democrats.

Spoken like one who gets his news from Limbaugh and O'Reilly. They've done quite a bit. Read what dcdux wrote again. See, this is the kind of crap I KNEW would happen when the democrats delivered their "thumpin" last election. People are used to seeing stories come to a happy ending in 30 minutes on TV, and because they can't seem to separate fiction from reality, they dimly expect the same thing to happen in real life. I KNEW that people would expect the democrats to eliminate the deficit and debt, stop the war, free Iraq, secure Israel, fix healthcare, and all sorts of other fixes to what Bush has screwed up. But instead of sitting back and thinking "ya know, it took bush SIX YEARS to get us to this point in this mess, maybe, just MAYBE it'll take a small majority of democrats in congress a little time to fix it all."

But no, the democrats haven't managed to save the world in 2 months, and therefore they're automatically the do nothing party. Let's get rid of 'em, which of course means the neocons masquerading as republicans will be back in office in 2 years and we can start screwing up the country further, but at least something's happening *fast* and *right now* right?


Because there's a chance that democrats can win. That's not true of the independents and libertarians. I prefer to cast my vote where it can do some good. Anything that gets these morons out of Washington is doing good. Plus, the independents and libertarians and the other fringe parties aren't exactly coming up with stellar candidates themselves. Perot? Total nutcase. Nader? Used to be one hell of a guy, now slightly nuts and there's no way he's gonna win. Who would you suggest we vote for? Jesse Ventura? That went over real well when he was governor in Minnesota didn't it?

37OHSSV

When Republicans brought the government to a standstill against Clinton, they were not pleased with the result. Joe Biden should study that period of time.

When Janet Reno stonewalled, while at the same time "accepting full responsibility," she came out ahead. Maybe Bush took note of that.

When Clinton fired the person who was in the middle of investigating Dan Rostenkowski (as well as every other Republican appointee of that nature), he got away with it. Maybe Bush took note of that, although he did not fire anyone during the Randy Cunningham investigation.

I find history to be highly relevant in most current events.

dc_dux

Selective revisionist history?

You probably know that the firing of the US attorney in the Rostenkowsi investigation (which continued without interuption) was a result of a change of administration in the White House - a common practice (see Reagan, Bush I). What you didnt note, between 1981 and 2006, of the more than 400 US Attorneys who served under both Dem and Repub Presidents, only 10 left office involuntarily for reasons other than a change in administration . In one swoop, Bush nearly matched that number.

If you want to cite recent history, please also note that Clinton allowed more than 30 of his top aides to testify at Repub initiated Congressional hearings (some on as such frivolous issues as the White House christmas card list) on 47 different occasions....putting to rest the bullshit coming out of the current White House:

White House Press Secretary Tony Snow: "It has been traditional in all White Houses not to have staffers testify on Capitol Hill."

White House Counselor Dan Bartlett: "I find it highly unlikely that a member of the White House staff would testify publicly"

Wouldnt you say that is relevant to current events as well?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Ol' Man Mose

I couldn't agree more with your last sentence.

Our parents, our first "Higher Power", impose on us what was imposed on them, belief in the psychotic sadomasochistic HP of a few barbarous flea-bitten Arab nomads.

Our insolent sense of self-entitlement and the perceived right to impose our petty will on sub-human others proceeds from there.

From there on in we conveniently never questioning the words these ancient Gypsies, tramps, and thieves put in their Semitic troll’s mouth, i.e. that our perfumed, semi-precious pseudo-Hebrew shit doesn’t stink and that He made Untermensch non-believers to be our niggers.

This religious ratbaggery gives rise to supremacist tripe like “Cities on Hills”, “Manifest Destiny” and the resultant right of narcissistic “culture-bearing” Christians to create, castigate, or cancel out countries at their pecuniary convenience.

Let’s put a stop to this parental child abuse, burn the vile Bibles of the Abrahamic religions and compel these self-opinionated pricks, so full of their own piss and importance, to confess their greed-driven hidden agendas.