03-29-2007, 07:29 AM | #42 (permalink) | |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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A) Legal hatchetmen, not political hatchetmen. And removing people for not pursuing unsubstantiated claims of election fraud (Iglesies with evidentiary problems)? Aside from being absurd, this doesn't square with you other point. Speaking of which, B) Pat Fitzgerald was APPOINTED as independent counsel. He didn't go out and seek that case. He followed the evidence, and apparently made a decent case that Scooter Libby perjured himself - which, in fact, is a crime. Period. In terms of his production before his was assigned to that case, he was extremely effective. It really seems as though you have made your mind up about this and are cherry picking arguments to support pre-formed conclusions.
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
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03-29-2007, 07:40 AM | #43 (permalink) | ||||||
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Location: Ventura County
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If you ever read what I write, you know I readly admit mty bias. Do you admit yours?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 03-29-2007 at 07:49 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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03-29-2007, 08:05 AM | #44 (permalink) | |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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03-29-2007, 08:05 AM | #45 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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The United States Attorneys have three statutory responsibilities under Title 28, Section 547 of the United States Code:I would suggest justice is better served when the US attorneys are able to focus on their core mission of the law enforcement "priorities of the "local jurisdiction and the needs of the community" without worrying about meeting an arbitrary standard of the political priorities of a President? Again, I would remind you that this is the first President in 25 years to dismiss US Attorneys in mid-term for politcal reasons...IMO, an indefensible precedent to the detriment of law enforcement.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 03-29-2007 at 08:12 AM.. |
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03-29-2007, 08:27 AM | #46 (permalink) | |
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The CIA leak investigation, compared to any past investigation that you can name, cost almost NOTHING. Show us facts that support an argument that the entire expenditure of the government on the CIA leak investigation, was more than only Libby's defense costs, to date. The CIA asked for the investigation. Bush's atty. general, Ashcroft, recused himself, because the CIA wanted a serious investigation. Ashcroft authroized the #2 at the DOJ, James Comey, to appoint a special counsel. Show us even one example of Patrick Fitzgerald not acting in an ethical manner in the investigation, in the trial, or in his prior professional, or non-professional life. Show us how Patrick Fitzgerald erroneously came to be named "special counsel" in the investigation, where he wasted money, and what he should have done, instead of indicting Libby, when Libby claimed, under oath, that he first heard about "Wilson's CIA wife", from Tim Russert, vs. testimony that the grand jury heard from Russert, Judith Miller, Ari Fleischer, Matt Cooper, Armitage, and from Karl Rove.....or.....please stop doing this.... Last edited by host; 03-29-2007 at 08:35 AM.. |
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03-29-2007, 08:28 AM | #47 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Ace:
Let's see here... US Attorney has a track record of excellence in election fraud situations, works with FBI and investigates 100 claims of voter fraud. Finds that all are not substantiated enough to go to court (and the FBI agrees) and does not file suit. To me, that sounds non-political. Then he gets fired for not pursuing the cases involving the opposition party before the election. Oh yeah, these are the cases that weren't pursued for legal and evidentiary reasons. That part sounds political. Let's have the former without the latter. I really can't imagine how other US Attorneys could help but interpret this to mean that to preserve their jobs, they have to produce a number of politically favorable prosecutions, regardless of legal or moral validity. In terms of bias, Ace, I can tell that you've got absolutely 0 clue how I vote. Yeah, we've all got biases, but I make an effort to see around mine. Ask yourself this - who is served by a system in which it is appropriate for the justice system to be subserviant to the current party in power. It sure isn't the voters/taxpayers. I thought government was supposed to serve the people, not itself, and not at the expense of the integrity of the judicial system.
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
03-29-2007, 09:02 AM | #48 (permalink) | ||||||
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Should a US Attorney target people because of party affiliation, no. Should a Us Attorney target people based on the law, yes. For example if the President wants to target organized drug traffic, the US Attorney needs to act accordingly. This is political. Quote:
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Not sure I have anything else to add on this subject.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 03-29-2007 at 09:19 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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03-29-2007, 09:20 AM | #49 (permalink) | |
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While JFK and brother Bobby, his Attorny General, were very vocal about the priority of civil rights during the 1960 campaign, they were much more reluctant to make it an issue once it office, until their hands were forced by the courageous actions of many of the US Attorneys in the south. But the issue goes beyond that. It is how this administration has falsely accused and discredited the reputations of the US attorneys by suggesting they were not "bushies" and were not supportive of Bush's priorities when they have no documentation to support that claim.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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03-29-2007, 09:31 AM | #50 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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The reason not to investigate 101, 150, or 1000 claims is that there weren't 101, 150, or 1000 claims. Iglesias investigated complaints made, not fictitious whims or drumming up cases without cause. This is one of the most basic facts in this case. This is a man who was invited to teach at a voter integrity conference in 2005!
Circumstantially, it seems likely that these dismissals were retaliatory. To believe that Iglesias and Lam just happened to be for other reasons is exceptionally trusting. In terms of having evidence that is more than circumstantial, that's exactly why there is and should be an inquiry. This isn't a court case, it's fact finding.
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
03-29-2007, 10:14 AM | #51 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 03-29-2007 at 10:17 AM.. |
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03-29-2007, 10:18 AM | #52 (permalink) | |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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That's a valid point, and I think you've made it with an effective example. However, it is only superficially comparable to the current situation. A more accurate parallel would be if the DoJ had been ordered to prosecute instances of racism and discrimination perpetrated by the opposition party. And then if someone who had successfully prosecuted members of the President's party for that thing was fired. THEN this would be a parallel example. __________________________________________________________ EDIT: merged double post I want to post this excerpt from today's NY Times editorial. This pretty much captures my feelings. I'm not calling for anyone's head, though I do think Gonzales will find himself in an untenable situation quickly. I just think a real inquiry with sworn testimony and transcripts is appropriate. I suppose this whole thing could be the implausible coincidence that Gonzales, Sampson, et al would have us believe, but I'm having trouble getting on board with that given the evasiveness the Bush admin folks are displaying. Does this really seem like a good place for Bush to stage a showdown with the Congress? Quote:
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam Last edited by ubertuber; 03-30-2007 at 04:15 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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04-05-2007, 03:49 AM | #53 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Apparently Monica Goodling is reiterating her intention to exercise her 5th Amendment rights if questioned by Congress. I remain conflicted in my thinking about this - but part of that may be due to ignorance on my part. Is it appropriate to (and is there precedent for) plead the 5th pre-emptively? It would seem to be a cynical or evasive move on her part to issue a blanket refusal to answer any and all questions in an inquiry in which there may not be a crime before she's been asked a single question. Would she refuse to confirm known details, such as the dates of her tenure at the DoJ? If so, could she rightfully be held in contempt of Congress?
I don't know too much about this - can anyone else chime in?
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
04-05-2007, 08:01 AM | #54 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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When Goodling's attorney's talk about a perjury trap it is a very real threat. Here is an example from Sampson's testimony, had he not corrected the record he would have told a lie and was at risk of perjury when it was clear he just did not have a clear memory of being in the same room with Bush.
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If you watch the testimony the laughter was pretty telling of Leahy's plans to trigger his trap.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-08-2007, 06:32 AM | #55 (permalink) | |
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if this is true....Gonzales does not have the grasp on ethics to be an animal control officer let alone the US Atty. General and "Rudy's not presidential "material":
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05-02-2007, 12:41 PM | #56 (permalink) | |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Here's where it could get really interesting. For the record, I absolutely don't believe this is a fishing expedition. While these emails could demonstrate that the whole brouhaha is over nothing, I think there's good reason to need to find out.
Senate Subpoenas Gonzales on Rove E-Mail Quote:
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
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05-02-2007, 02:50 PM | #57 (permalink) |
is awesome!
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No one has mentioned what a complete mockery Gonzales' testimony makes of our system of justice. To have an Attorney General who is "unable to recall" anything regarding this scandal is preposterous. At this point he's either complicit in the cover up or grossly incompetent, either way he deserves to be fired. Of course his boss(es) have never shied away from baldfaced arrogance, so I'd say he's equally likely to be awarded the Medal of Freedom as fired.
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05-02-2007, 03:09 PM | #58 (permalink) |
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Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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I think 'Justice' has been irrelevant to this administration other than using it to achieve particular ideological ends. If true, Gonzales performed exactly as he was expected to which makes Bush's continued support of him understandable.
I think this administration depends on the appearance of incompetence to disguise their very deliberate intentions.
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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007 |
05-02-2007, 05:20 PM | #59 (permalink) | |
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I dont see hoe anyone who watched this testimony, can fail to see the fiasco it was. |
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05-02-2007, 05:54 PM | #60 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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It'll be interesting to see what happens when they say they can't retrieve the emails, which they'll almost certainly say. Executive privilege can't apply to emails on the RNC servers. We'll see how quickly the inquiry ensues.
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
05-17-2007, 07:57 PM | #62 (permalink) |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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I may be wrong, but I think only Bush can fire Gonzales. That he has chosen not to do so has only further motivated congressional investigations concerning Gonzales. IMO, Bush believes he needs Gonzales to derail any investigations involving the executive branch. With Republicans demanding resignation, Bush may have to capitulate, but one wonders who he will appoint as a replacement.
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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007 |
05-17-2007, 09:09 PM | #64 (permalink) |
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I think Gonzales could also be impeached. From the constitution: "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors"
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05-18-2007, 06:44 AM | #65 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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Drama and intrigue, this is as good as a Grisham novel.
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Does the left have a new hero in Ashcroft? Will Gonzales admit to his sex change operation? Will Congress ever remember we are at war and that without fixing social security the nation will go into ruin? Tune in next week, same time same channel.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 05-18-2007 at 06:49 AM.. |
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05-18-2007, 07:26 AM | #66 (permalink) | |||
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Read this, ace. Quote:
I'm a pretty good judge of character, ace. Comey and Fitzgerald have some, Bush, Cheney, Libby, Card, Gonzales have.....none that I can discern. Unlike you, I think that Comey's senate committee testimony confirmed our worst fears of the depths of the criminality and disregard for the US Constitution that we have had confirmed, in six long years. As a result, I have changed my "sig" here to reflect my impression. I also don't think it will be a very long time until we get confirmation of how "far off" the sentiments that you expressed in your last post, actually are from the implications of what Comey said in his testimony mean....for what Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney "stand for"..... What have you been right about, ace? Sheesh ! This isn't about reversing an unfavorable opinion with regard to Ashcroft. It's about the degree of the reversal of the oath that president Bush and vice-president Cheney took to Quote:
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05-18-2007, 07:44 AM | #67 (permalink) | |||||
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If the Bush administration has violated US Constitutional rights of citizens why hasn't Congress taken any action? Why has no one filed any lawsuits? I take that back, Plame has filed a lawsuit, I am very interested in seeing how far it gets. Quote:
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 05-18-2007 at 07:48 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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05-18-2007, 07:52 AM | #68 (permalink) | |
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They illegally used RNC email accounts so that their business couldn't be tracked. They they claim it was an accident..... I'm sorry but I don't buy it that everyone involved was using RNC accounts on accident. I could see 1 person doing that but not everyone. |
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05-18-2007, 08:01 AM | #69 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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But first I guess the have to find-out what crime they are investigating. What crime are they investigating?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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05-18-2007, 08:40 AM | #70 (permalink) | |||||
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ace....I posted this article back on March 23: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...5&postcount=35 ...and here it is again: Quote:
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05-18-2007, 09:02 AM | #71 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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I think its pathetic the lengths the Dems are going to try and bring down any and every Repub in their little warpath. Checks and balances are wonderful, but the abject cynicism the Dems are showing is embarrasing. They're not bright enough to get at Mr. Bush, Mr. Rove or Mr. Cheney, so they go after everyone around them for the most politically trivial reasons. Meanwhile, their alternative to all this in '08 is Hillary Pantsuit. Like little kids, these people.
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05-18-2007, 09:06 AM | #72 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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Even if you assume the firings were politically motivated, came directly from Bush, and based on the failing of the Justice Department to prosecute Democrats and to drop criminal charges against Republicans, were the firings illegal? If so, what law was violated? Those are the basic questions that have to be answered if you want to talk about impeachment or the illegality of this matter. If you want to talk about "lies", that is a different subject. I can agree, that Gonzales has been less than 100% honest on this subject, for reasons I don't understand. But even if we agree that he has been less than 100% honest, I don't think I have seen actual proof of a lie to Congress that qualifies as perjury or impeachment. If people in the administration are guilty of using non-official email accounts, I personally don't care. If Bush or Rove used these accounts or told people to use them and we want to start impeachment of a President over that, I think I may need to consider moving to France.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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05-18-2007, 09:53 AM | #73 (permalink) |
Junkie
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Laws that may have or have been broken:
1) Using RNC accounts for official email 2) Interfering with official investigations 3) Falsifying evidence to create propaganda to lead us to war 4) Falsifying evidence to continue to create support for the way (aka more propaganda, examples: lynch, tillman). 5) Lying under oath 6) Warrentless wiretapping 7) Failing to uphold the constitution 8) Funding terrorists in Iraq (look at the way we handed out money and you will see much of it ended up in our enemies hands) 9) Outing an undercover CIA official for political gain I'm sure there are a bunch I missed. Ohh yeah here is one more.... 10) Eating babies (this has to be a hobby of Karl Rove ) Last edited by Rekna; 05-18-2007 at 10:03 AM.. |
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The administration certainly had enough evidence to support a case for war using information that was common knowledge. Actually most who supported the war - supported it based on that information, including Sen. Clinton. Quote:
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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05-18-2007, 11:18 AM | #75 (permalink) | |
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What happened to Pat Roberts final, senate select intelligende committee report related to the Bush administration's handling of pre Iraq invasion intelligence? Last I knew, Roberts divided the "half of the report", it's release delayed since July, 2004, into 5 parts, and only one of those was released last september. Direct me to the location of the other 4 parts, powerclown. Direct me to any report from Robb-Silberman or the 9/11 Commission, or Pat Robert's committee's determination of how the Bush administration handled pre-Iraq war intelligenc, other than the very damning little segment released last september 8th. This has been the most secretive, and uncooperative presidential administration in memory. I've published polling results that support the opinion that the majority of Americans polled, support these aggressive investigations....they want answers, disclosure, accountability. What do you want, powerclown....a free ride....no accountability from an administration so secretive and so corrupt that it had to abandon the security of the white house email system to hide the record of it's own communications, an administration, that, as one of it's first 2001 post inaugural acts, installed Abramoff's "gal friday", in a west wing office just down the hall from Bush and titled her special assistant to both Rove and bush....then, when her white house "service" was publicized, promoted her in title and raise her pay from $60000 to $92000 annually? Damn it, powerclown....how can we have any discussion here when you post an opinion so uncoupled from the record of this administration and from the easily supported news reporting of it's malfeasance of te last several years? |
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05-18-2007, 11:19 AM | #76 (permalink) | ||||||||||
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Ace you seem to think that investigations are a bad thing. Those who fear investigations are the ones who have something to hide. If the administration can listen to my phone calls, read my emails, ect without a warrant. Then I too should be able to read ALL of their emails and listen to ALL of their conversations, especially when it has been subpoenaed. The investigations are being done because their is evidence that wrong doing may have occurred. This does not mean that it has occurred and if it has not then the investigation should clear them. When someone doesn't cooperate with an investigation it typically means they are guilty and are hiding it. The administration has not cooperated in these very serious investigations and this makes me think they are hiding something........ We need to remove the corruption from Washington and what a better place to start than the top? |
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05-18-2007, 11:30 AM | #77 (permalink) | |
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...continued....
....an administration where the indicted chief of staff of the vice-president of the US did not take the witness stand in his own defense to charges that he lied to investigators and to a grand jury investigating a CIA complaint of a criminal leak of the name and employment details of one of it's agents...an administration where the VP, after calling his indicted chief of staff, "one of the finest men I've known", did not come to his aid's criminal trial to testify on his behalf.... ....and where, in his summation, the special counsel prosecuting the Vice president's "man"....a prosecutor appointed by the president as US Attorney for So. Illinois, and appointed special counsel in the CIA leak investigation by the Justice Dept. led by an appointee of the president, Asst. Atty Gen.,James Comey, described to the jury that: Quote:
So what we can "take to the bank", is that the COS of the VP is a convicted felon....convicted of obstructing an investigation, during wartime, of the leaking of classified information, a leak that a prosecutor, appointed by the president, declared to be approved and directed by the VP, himself, and we have the fact that the former employer of president Bush and Karl Rove's speical assistant, is serving a federal prison sentence, after pleading guilty to charges related to and involving that special assistant, and reports that she, while working at the white house, had more than 300 instances of contact with her convicted former employer, a man who ther president himself, denied any official contact with....and we have proof that her communications with this felon were intentionally shifted from the white house email system to the RNC.org system, for the stated purpose of avoiding detection, traceibility, accountability..... nope....powerclown...<b>nothing to see here.....it's a partisan witch hunt, all of it the fault of petty democrats....who is next to be voted off "American Idol"...</b> Nice little alternate universe you live in, there....powerclown...who does your lawn....it's immaculate ! Last edited by host; 05-18-2007 at 11:46 AM.. |
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05-18-2007, 11:56 AM | #78 (permalink) | |||||||||||||||
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Location: Ventura County
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I think political grandstanding is a bad thing. Quote:
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 05-18-2007 at 12:09 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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05-19-2007, 05:03 AM | #79 (permalink) |
The Griffin
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NEW YORK - A public school teacher was arrested today at John F. Kennedy
International Airport as he attempted to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, a protractor, a set square, a slide rule, and a calculator. At a morning press conference, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said he believes the man is a member of the notorious Al-gebra movement. He did not identify the man, who has been charged by the FBI with carrying weapons of math instruction. "Al-gebra is a problem for us," Gonzales said. "They desire solutions by means and extremes, and sometimes go off on tangents in a search of absolute value. They use secret code names like 'x' and 'y' and refer to themselves as 'unknowns', but we have determined they belong to a common denominator of the axis of medieval with coordinates in every country. As the Greek philanderer Isosceles used to say, 'There are 3 sides to every triangle.' " When asked to comment on the arrest, President Bush said, "If God had wanted us to have better Weapons of Math Instruction, He would have given us more fingers and toes." White House aides told reporters they could not recall a more intelligent or profound statement by the president. |
05-23-2007, 11:35 AM | #80 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Looks like Mcnulty is going to pay the price for all of this.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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alberto, gonezales |
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