01-06-2007, 05:58 AM | #1 (permalink) |
Banned
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Maybe...this time
Second times a charm....personally I see this as a great Idea, and I hope it passes this time. Might even save me a few Bucks in taxes a couple decades from now.
"Many Democratic Senators joined Leahy in reintroducing a bill creating criminal penalties for war profiteers and cheats who would exploit taxpayer-funded efforts in Iraq and elsewhere around the world. The War Profiteering Prevention Act of 2007 builds on earlier efforts by Leahy, who is also a senior member of the Appropriations Committee, to crack down on this type of rampant fraud and abuse. It is similar to legislation Leahy introduced in 2003, that was subsequently passed by the Senate as part of an appropriations bill but later torpedoed by the White House and the House Republican leadership, which stripped out the Leahy provision. " http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200701/010407b.html |
01-06-2007, 07:13 AM | #3 (permalink) |
Pickles
Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)
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*sniffs around* Does anyone else smell veto in here? I think this should be publicised more so that if it is smacked down people will know about it... and the one person to blame. But yea its a great idea and long over-due. I have heard some amazing stories of waste by contracted US companies in Iraq... hopefully this will change that.
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We Must Dissent. |
01-06-2007, 09:09 AM | #4 (permalink) |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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This is a great start. Now if they can just extend this to all taxpayer funded activities including those taking bribes and campaign contributions from the profiteers. They should probably also include those in Congress who get their extended families and friends jobs in the profiteering companies.
After all, Leahy said "Americans want the culture of corruption to end". I suspect when the smoke clears not many of his colleagues would be left. |
01-06-2007, 09:46 AM | #5 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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never gonna happen. the politicians love their extra money a bit too much to ever get money out of politics.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
01-06-2007, 09:54 AM | #6 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Chicago
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I always thought war profiteering was considered a treasonous act. Am I entirely ignorant on this subject? I'm obviously too damn lazy right now to research it.
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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses |
01-07-2007, 12:17 PM | #7 (permalink) | |
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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Nice troll, moderator.
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
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01-07-2007, 12:38 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Sure, other people have it too, but that doesn't make your one-liner into a point.
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam Last edited by ubertuber; 01-07-2007 at 12:40 PM.. |
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01-07-2007, 12:57 PM | #9 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Profit made by others is wrong. Profits made by me are o.k. Isn't that really what this boils down to? The government controls and regulates commerce, they control defense spending. Perhaps all that is needed is for them to do their jobs, we don't need more laws and empty political statments.
I think we generally know the target of this is Haliburton. When Haliburton was a government supplier, making a profit, 40 years ago (and every year since), that was o.k. Now under the Bush administration they are profiteering and have been for the last 6 years, everyone has known about it, they continue doing it, and Congress and the military sit back and do nothing. I am looking forward to the hearings and for the facts to come out. But let me be the first to go on record here to say nothing is going to come of this. I think the facts will show Haliburton was not profiteering.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
01-07-2007, 01:47 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
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01-07-2007, 03:14 PM | #11 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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The DCAA on several occasions recommended withholding payments on some Halliburton contracts pending support documentation from Halliburton. Rumsfeld ignored the DCAA recommendations. In Congressional oversight hearings of Iraq reconstruction funding abuses over the last three years, the Repub majority repeatedly refused the request by Dems on the committees to subpoena Halliburton for supporting documents. The latest request was last Feb (link) Other DCAA audits: http://reform.house.gov/search/resul...ts+halliburton Ace....perhaps you are right (although the audits suggest otherwise), and now that we finally have a Congress that takes its oversight responbilities seriously, we shall see in the coming months.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-07-2007 at 06:25 PM.. |
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01-07-2007, 03:35 PM | #12 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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01-07-2007, 05:19 PM | #13 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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01-07-2007, 05:44 PM | #14 (permalink) | ||
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<center><img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/5y/h/hal"></center> Here is how war profiteering and gross government incompetence was dealt with during WWII...it's a five page article, too bad the regime and the DOD didn't read it, and that the congress was controlled, from 2003 to Jan. 2007, by one, totally partisan, pro-corporation, pro-privatization, political party: Quote:
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01-08-2007, 06:18 AM | #15 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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First - There needed to be a pre-defined standard for profiteering. I don't think there was. If so, please give a source.
Second - contracts entered into between Haliburton and the government, either bid or no bid were entered into mutually. Haliburton did not have the power to force the government into poor contracts. Third- Some Haliburton contracts existed with the government prior to the Iraqi war. Fourth - This issue has been on the table for 6 years. Why has no action been taken if the law was broken? Fifth-Haliburton is a diversified company. Defense contracting is only a small percentage of the total business (part of which was spun off recently, although Haliburton still has a controlling interest). The stock price mirrors the stock price of many companies in the energy business during the period shown above. So, I am on record. If I am wrong, I am wrong for all to see. Quote:
If you ever had the experience of doing business in a foriegn country your perspective may be different. For example if you travel or need to ship goods across certain boarders you have to bribe officials. How do you account for that in a legitimate way on an expense report? You can't, but it is a real cost. I can only imagine what it took under the table to get things done in Iraq. I think that will be the reason Congress won't make a big deal about this. They can't want this to see the light of day, it is a reality and will be in the future no matter who was or will be in the White House.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 01-08-2007 at 06:30 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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01-08-2007, 06:44 AM | #16 (permalink) | ||||
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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I'm just responding to the most egregious ostrich-head-burying here:
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01-08-2007, 07:02 AM | #17 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: rural Indiana
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And look what "got done"! Gee....Our economy sucks big time, and the rest of the world hates us now, the mideast is scarily unstable... take it to the bank dudes ......
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01-08-2007, 07:58 AM | #18 (permalink) | ||||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 01-08-2007 at 08:18 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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01-08-2007, 12:04 PM | #19 (permalink) | ||||
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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Can you deny that the company that has most been accused of war profiteering has a former CEO in the White House? Can you honestly say that the money they've pumped into congresspeople's re-election campaigns has been because they're friendly and helpful? Haliburton has been given massive and overloaded no-bid contracts on the whole war-rebuild effort. Is that because there's no competition? Or is it because they're the most favored firm of their type? And if it's because they're the most favored... why do you think that might be? |
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01-08-2007, 12:24 PM | #20 (permalink) | |||||||
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<b>If you jump down and read the last quote box in this post, and my comments after it, would you not be inclined to want to impeach the creators of the CPA for fraud against US taxpayers, or for stupidity....can anyone make a case for an alternate reaction to the August court ruling?</b>
The Iraqi government is about to sign contracts with big oil companies that will allow the companies to keep as much as 75 percent of the profits from the sale of Iraqi oil, in the first few years of contracts that will last as long as 30 years: Quote:
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01-08-2007, 02:08 PM | #21 (permalink) | |||||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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But if you see that point, why not apply the same logic to all other costs of doing business in a war zone? Quote:
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I believe there are people in Washington who do what they believe is best for the country. I do not think everyone is motivated by money. Even if you disagree with Bush, I think he believes what he is doing is best for the country. Quote:
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-08-2007, 02:48 PM | #22 (permalink) | |||||
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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It's called a "No-Bid" contract. There's no bidding, and there's no negotiation, good faith or otherwise. The contractor names a price, and the government buys. Quote:
Actually, as I type that, I wonder if that's true in the world-as-you-see-it. Do you think that the behavior we think of as 'war profiteering' is just fair game in a tough business? The invisible hand at its most stark, perhaps? Is this just Capitalism in its ultimate expression? Quote:
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(Oh, by the way, I laughed hard at your suggestion that "pressure situations are not the time to experiment". The whole damn war was an experiment. Don't try and tell me that somebody said, "You know, just in case we're NOT greeted as liberators.... Just in case this thing DOES go more than six months... Just in case the mission ISN'T accomplished, and these AREN'T the last throes of the insurgency... We'd better have a darned reliable logistics company in there to make sure things go well." ) Last edited by ratbastid; 01-08-2007 at 02:53 PM.. |
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01-08-2007, 03:26 PM | #23 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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Thats alot of baksheeh is any language. Quote:
It will see the light of day.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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01-08-2007, 03:57 PM | #24 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: rural Indiana
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Our economy sucks....unless of course you are quite rich....I'm sorry, you CAN'T tell me it's good, I know differently. Once again...the mideast is WAY more unstable since little Bush has had his way. If he thought this war was in the country's best interest....he should have stopped and listened to all those who told him it wasn't. Shock and awe and US dick wagging might have been fun at first.....but now we are stuck with this unsolvable mess. It will take a least a decade to (hopefully) get back to the not so hot way it was before. At least there was hope then.....But, the neo-con rich got richer.... If we left tomorrow....it would be a start...perhaps the USA could begin to recover from the image of greedy pigs who do anything for oil that this ridiculous war has painted us with.
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01-09-2007, 07:50 AM | #25 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Without getting into a debate about if the war is worth the cost. My question had to do with how do you do you do clean auditable gap accounting in a war torn area? It is easy for auditors in Washington sitting in air conditioned offices drinking lattes, to find discrepencies. And it is easy to make unrealistic comparisons between doing busines in normal conditions and doing business in a war zone. But if you are on the ground in a war zone needing to get the job done by a deadline and your boss says do whatever it takes what do you do? I guess you would have all your people get purchase orders, signed off by 4 superiors, get reciepts, total them at the end of the day, and mail them all to Marge the bookkeeper, take inventory daily, and mail inventory records to George the supply accounts clerk, etc, etc, etc. I would get the job done and worry about Marge and George later. On the question of profiteering - A) If the government did not trust their vendor could do the job at a reasonable cost, don't outsource the job. B) If you use a cost plus contract, have a proceedure and means to verify the costs before making payment. C) If your vendor is incurring extraordinary costs, address the issue at the time not years later. If anything this is a government problem not a Halliburton problem. Quote:
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Yoda
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 01-09-2007 at 07:54 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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01-09-2007, 10:22 AM | #26 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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Brown & Root co-founder George Brown (left) with President Lyndon B. Johnson. LBJ's ties to the Brown brothers dated back to his days as a Texas congressman. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=1569483
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-09-2007 at 10:28 AM.. |
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01-09-2007, 10:45 AM | #27 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-09-2007, 10:50 AM | #28 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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01-09-2007, 10:58 AM | #29 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-09-2007, 11:04 AM | #30 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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The primary role of oversight committees is to determine if regulations/administrative policies/practices & procedures, etc. are being implemented and administered by the Executive Branch as intended by Congress (as in NOW...REAL TIME, not in the past). As I said, focusing on the past can provide an historical perspective, but is not the primary purpose of oversight.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-09-2007 at 11:11 AM.. |
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01-09-2007, 12:47 PM | #31 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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To bad that Congress gave the Pres the infamous "blank check".
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To bad congress authorized the money spent in Iraq by the DOD. To bad almost every Democrat in Congress voted in favor of the above without questions. To bad Democratic leadership is not interested in referring possible fraud as they would define it to the Dept. of Justice. To bad that this is simply political grand standing, isn't it?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-09-2007, 03:19 PM | #32 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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With all those TOO BADS....it's GOOD ENOUGH for me that we now have a Congress (including many Repubs) finallly willing to step up and hopefully meet its oversight responsibilites and ask the tough questions of the President, the Secy of Defense, the Secy of State and all their loyal minions as they propose to move ahead with "stay the course" phase 3 (or is it 4, 5...)
It it TOO BAD that so many lives were needlessly and recklessly sacrificed before Congress may actually put American lives over political expediency. History will note the shameful abrigation of responsiblities by both parties and the institute of Congress as a whole for the last six years. Oh..and nice ducking and weaving on the issue of Congressional oversight...which the Dems, for all their failures when they were in the minority, could not do without subpoena power.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-09-2007 at 04:20 PM.. |
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maybethis, time |
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