pan6467

What oppurtunity are you describing man, besides blaming the workers for losing their jobs and benefits and having to work 2 p/t jobs with no benefits trying to make ends meet.

Tell the people that are working those 2 jobs and doing all they can to try to make it that they are feeling sorry for themselves and should move to where the jobs are, or go to school.

Seriously Ace, your not showing anything except to blame the worker for everything.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

aceventura3

I am not sure what the problem is. Either I am not communicating clearly or you are not able to objectively understand what I write.

I have never blamed any worker for the loss of jobs. However, the loss of jobs happens.
I agree that the loss of good jobs is devistating to people and communities.
I also have the view that "big business" doesn't care and has no responsiblity to take care of me and my family if my job is eleminated. I do support short-term legal obligations like COBRA, unemployment compensation, etc.
Given my view - if an employee gets complacent and starts to believe the corporate propaganda ("we are a family" "we care about our employees", "our employees are our #1 asset", etc, etc.) it is a mistake. A big mistake.
Given that I believe it is the responsibility of every working person to take a proactive role in their future and the security of their family.

How do we do that???

Savings
Education
Training
Owning assets
Living below our means
Networking
"Realize it is never too late to take control" - Zig Ziggler
Reading company financials
and
being prepared to move if needed.


You seem to disagree with me. I don't understand why.

I am going to ask my wife (much more liberal and compasionate than I) to read what we have written on this subject to see if I have not been clear. Perhaps you can have someone do the same - and we can come back compare notes.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

Ace...do you know anyone living on the edge of poverty on the proceeds of a low paying job and perhaps AFDC support?

Savings - in place of putting food on the table or paying rent?
Education/training - either give up their low paying job or maybe night school (but then they would have to use their "savings" for additional child care)
Owning assets - the basic necessities come first
Living below our means - the only thing lower is homelessness

We can debate how they got to this point, but the fact is that there are millions of Americans facing this every day.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

abaya

Just jumping in for a bit here...

I agree. NCB, I study migration for a living, and I can tell you right now that it's not the poorest of the poor who immigrate... not from Europe 80 years ago, and not from Mexico right now. The poorest of the poor CANNOT AFFORD to move, period. They simply lack the financial capital to pick up and go that far.

The only other option for the poorest of the poor to move is if they have some kind of social capital... networks, basically, that will enable them somehow to move to other places where they might know someone, and who can give them a loan for a while until they get on their feet. Even social capital, though, is worth something... and a lot of people don't even have that. And for them, their options ARE limited.

Choice is not equally accessible for all humans on this earth; it is very unequally distributed, and persists over generations. Structural conditions impose limits on EVERYone, especially so on those who lack access to financial and social capital.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

aceventura3

I was raised in a community surrounded by people in poverty. I have relatives who are currently in poverty. I was the first in my family to attend college. Before my mother died her only source of income was social security (and me). My sister had her first baby before getting out of highschool. I know a lady with 5 children, not married, working and going to school.

What is your point?

I know what can be done. I have seen it done.

Perhaps a better question is - do you know anyone on the edge of poverty?

If you do - what have they done to secure a better future? I want to know. Have you ever helped them? Have you ever talked to them? Why are they on the edge of poverty?

I am begining to think you guys are just being disagreeable for the sake of being disagreeable.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

aceventura3

People in the USA are not the "poorest of the poor" are they?

True. However, the refuges of Darfur have figured out a way to move without much help from the rest of the world. They are the poorest of the poor. Please elaborate on your position given the above

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

I applaud you and your family for what you have achieved, but I would like to hear what your wife says first about your "solutions" to see if she is just as "disagreeable"

I am not going to get into what I have done personally to help those in need. That is between me and them.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

jorgelito

I think we need to parse this out more because I am in agreement with Ace here. I too share a similar "pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps-mentality" and experience. I lived in poverty and it sounds like Ace has too. Maybe we (all of us here) are oversimplifying the poverty aspect or something. The response above seems to indicate extreme poverty. I also accept that having children changes the dynamic as well.

I don't have alot of sources or references to go by, mostly my own experience, anecdotal, and observational.

But, we all have choices and make choices. Sound financial planning and budgeting is the first step. Smart consumer choices is another example. There are plenty of resources available to assist those that need it. Financial aid for education is quite generous. I knew alot of people on welfare growing up who lived better than me.

I worked 3 jobs to pay my way through community college before I discovered the joys of financial aid. Nothing glamorous: the video store, a pizza place, Starbucks...

I sacrificed and deferred gratification for years (still am). I budgeted accordingly, clipped coupons, made all my meals at home, found cheap housing and took public transportation. I never bought a PS2, had cable TV or even nice clothes. I had my friend cut my hair and I read books at the library for my entertainment. I used the schools computers for homework etc. I lived below my means.

Slowly but surely, I made it. I bought a computer with my first financial aid check. I continued good financial planning and saved every quarter. I quit smoking too. I only spent what I could afford. I am from the east coast, a high school drop out. I eventually got my GED and ended up on the West coast looking for better opportunities.

pan6467

First you stated this:


I find that rather accusatory of the workers that have suffered layoffs and job losses. Maybe you don't, but I see a lot wrong in that statement and I pointed it out.


Instead of debating anything I said in reply to that, you then posted this more self-righteous bs:

When I rebutted to that again you didn't offer true solutions you replied this way:



Now then, somewhere along the line you must have missed where I stated these people that have lost their jobs cannot afford their mortgages, nor can they sell their houses to just pay off the mortgage. You seem to miss the point where I stated that the ABJ has had 7 pages of foreclosures in their legals.

Yet you still believe that these workers should save, save what? Get education, how are they going to afford that, Ohio has the 4th highest state college tuitions, if you have a tax lien on your house or owe taxes in any form you cannot get financial aid for college, and yet these people are supposed to get educated somehow.

Owning assets.... they've had to sell what they could to pay the mortgages. All of these people lost their medical too, some of them need meds, you have to pay out of your own pocket for COBRA, since they can barely afford to live they can't do that, nor can they get the meds they need...... guess who pays? The taxpayers.... guess who that is the rich because noone else can. (Hence more burden on the rich.)

Live below their means? what do you think they were doing when the past 3 contracts came up and each time they took pay cuts and lower insurance benefits. They were struggling trying to make it when they had jobs. How much lower did they need to live?

Networking.... with who?

Take control of what? They have shit for credit, they have lost everything and you tell them it is their fault and they need to just buck up? How? You need decent credit to do anything and these people's credits are about toast.

Company financials? Again, for Hoover and especially Timken the financials were not bad and did not demonstrate the need to close these plants.

Prepared to move again is your answer...... how? Again, they have houses they cannot sell just to break even on the mortgages.... where are they going to move have money for an apartment, have money to move at all, for that matter, have money to live on while they find a job and again, what kind of job are they going to get when they are in their 30's, 40's and 50's have families to support and have shitty credit?

And how do you tell a man that he can no longer make enough to take care of his family?


Big business doesn't care...it's a cold world, every man for himself... blah blah blah ..... meanwhile the CEO's make more in 1 day than the average worker does in a year, and that's ok.... if anyone like myself has issues with it, then it's class envy. Great excuse for not having to face societial demands and responsibilities.


That's a good idea and I would appreciate any TFP'ers opinions on this. Perhaps I am missing something, but truly all I see coming from you is it is the worker's responsibility and tough shit if they weren't prepared.

You were young, didn't have a mortgage or family to feed, try doing it in your 30's or 40's when you have a family, mortgage and you can't pay for them and your credit turns to shit.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

Ace.....This is where you really lost me. Surely you are aware that "poor" is relative to one's living and working environment.

A comparison to the poor of Darfur? Sure some "refugees in Dafur figured out a way to move." Packed in refugee camps in near starvation conditions beats being slaughtered.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

The part that is accusatory is when a person fails to respond to a bad circumstance. Being in a bad situations is one thing, failure to do something about it when able is something else. We make mistakes, we "fall off the horse" occasitionally - I say dust yourself off and get back on, live and learn, move forward, make the most of what you have, have a positive outlook. What are you saying?


A home forclosure is a terrible thing. After my parents divorced when I was a kid the house we lived in was forclosed. We moved into a less expensive home and rented. I know other people who had to move. They did it too. I guess that is more BS., but I am sorry. Like I said - I know what can be done and I have seen it done.

I have seen people on welfare save during the year, so they could have something special for their kids during the holidays. I have seen people "game" the system so they could get on their feet. I have seen parents send their kids to relatives until they could find a place to live, a job and save some money. Again all BS, right? Your BS doesn't fly with me because I am not a conservative who was born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I been there and it is still a part of me, and I still see it when I go home to visit friends and relatives.

Think about this. My mother smoked until she died. If she had purchased shares of Phillip Morris rather than their cigaretts over the years she would have died with several million dollars worth of Phillip Morris stock and would have had a couple of hundred dollars in dividend income every year. Don't take my word for it - go to their website - they have historical quotes and you can calculate the current value of hypatheical investments in the stock - MO.
I remenber when I was 10, I suggested that she stop and save the money. she didn't like my tone (suprise), slapped me in the face and I never made the suggestion again, but I should have. The point is that people can save if they want.

I agree in having short-term safety nets for people in need.

I can't answer that questions. All I can say is what I was told. Pay yourself first. When you make your first dollar, put $.10 in the bank and then do the same for each additional dollar earned. If you get a raise save a portion. Use cash for all purchases, unless it is real-estate.

If a person has not been doing the above, it is never too late to start, in my opinion.

Relatives
Friends
Church Groups
Motorcycle Club groups
Sewing circle
TFP
Hell - anyone, everyone...

Your destiny. I am starting to sound like a motivational speaker. I do recommend Dale Carnigie (sp?) and Zig Ziggler.

Perhaps all is lost, and they should just give up...not!!! What can I say at this point, you will always have a reason not to do. They Can't...They Can't ... They Can't... I like Yoda's quote "there is no try, there is do or not do.

Perhaps that is true, but not in all cases. Again the point is missed. All I suggest is that employees take in active role in those things that may impact their lives.

"There is no try, there is do or not do."

Packed in refugee camps in near starvation conditions beats being slaughtered.

Moving from Detroit to get a job in the southwest beats being jobless and in poverty.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

pan6467

Thank you Ace. You explained your position better, I may not agree with it, but you made good counterpoints to mine and from there people can see the differences. Trust me as hard as some of it is to swallow, you do have some truth in there.

That was a debate, something we lack here on TFP. I stated my case, you countered and now the people decide at the ballot box by finding people who represent what we just said.

(Personally, I would hope to think given what you have said and what I have said, there could be a middle ground for compromise in there.)

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

aceventura3

FYI - CBS Evening News on Friday did a segment on people moving to WY due to the boom in the coal industry in the state. In the segment they focused on two families who made the move. Not only did they find well paying stedy work, the move brought the families closer together.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n2146818.shtml

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

flstf

Ace, I agree with much of what you say in post #131. I can relate to several of your experiences. I am however concerned that in the not too distant future there will just not be enough jobs to go around and the wealth will become more and more concentrated in this country. I wonder what society's answer will be to this problem. Perhaps another WPA progam?

In another thread Walmart (Sams) was compared to Cosco where they have the same overall business income but Cosco does it with 30,000 less (higher paid) workers. Productivity increases will require less workers. Eventually just moving to a new area may not help but I guess we can take a world view and look to other countries for work as many who immigrate here do.

aceventura3

The industrial age is past its peak, just like the agricultural age has past its peak in terms of employment in this country. We are now an the information age. Instead of moving, perhaps people will make money in cyberspace, using something like EBAY, Blogs, Youtube, I don't know what because I am not up to date on all the newest opportunities. Or instead of producing comodities the new economy will focus more on providing services. I remember 25 years ago, there was no such thing as a personal trainer at the gym. Now you can't go without tripping all over them. At my gym they charge $50/hour (I know they have to split it with the gym) and most are booked solid.

People will adapt as they always have. I am not worried.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

flstf

I'd like to believe they will. I recall my father's and grandfather's stories about how they made it through the great depression by making and selling beer among other things.

I am not so sure about this new service oriented economy, we can't all deliver each other pizzas. I realize that most of the growth is in the service sector but with everyone becoming lawyers, stockbrockers, teachers, insurance salesmen, etc... where is the wealth going to come from?