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Originally Posted by aceventura3
I am not sure what the problem is. Either I am not communicating clearly or you are not able to objectively understand what I write.
I have never blamed any worker for the loss of jobs. However, the loss of jobs happens. You seem to disagree with me. I don't understand why.
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First you stated this:
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
You say Joe Blue Collar can't move from the "rust-belt" or some other dying town to where jobs are plentiful??? Please tell me you are kidding. If you are not kidding, are people really that lazy and short-sighted?
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I find that rather accusatory of the workers that have suffered layoffs and job losses. Maybe you don't, but I see a lot wrong in that statement and I pointed it out.
Instead of debating anything I said in reply to that, you then posted this more self-righteous bs:
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People don't always have to move. Another option is to learn new marketable skills. There are other options. It seems that the main point is missed - people don't have to be victims of circumstance.
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When I rebutted to that again you didn't offer true solutions you replied this way:
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Given that I believe it is the responsibility of every working person to take a proactive role in their future and the security of their family.
How do we do that???
Savings
Education
Training
Owning assets
Living below our means
Networking
"Realize it is never too late to take control" - Zig Ziggler
Reading company financials
and
being prepared to move if needed.
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Now then, somewhere along the line you must have missed where I stated these people that have lost their jobs cannot afford their mortgages, nor can they sell their houses to just pay off the mortgage. You seem to miss the point where I stated that the ABJ has had 7 pages of foreclosures in their legals.
Yet you still believe that these workers should save, save what? Get education, how are they going to afford that, Ohio has the 4th highest state college tuitions, if you have a tax lien on your house or owe taxes in any form you cannot get financial aid for college, and yet these people are supposed to get educated somehow.
Owning assets....
they've had to sell what they could to pay the mortgages. All of these people lost their medical too, some of them need meds, you have to pay out of your own pocket for COBRA, since they can barely afford to live they can't do that, nor can they get the meds they need...... guess who pays? The taxpayers.... guess who that is the rich because noone else can. (Hence more burden on the rich.)
Live below their means? what do you think they were doing when the past 3 contracts came up and each time they took pay cuts and lower insurance benefits. They were struggling trying to make it when they had jobs. How much lower did they need to live?
Networking.... with who?
Take control of what? They have shit for credit, they have lost everything and you tell them it is their fault and they need to just buck up? How? You need decent credit to do anything and these people's credits are about toast.
Company financials? Again, for Hoover and especially Timken the financials were not bad and did not demonstrate the need to close these plants.
Prepared to move again is your answer...... how? Again, they have houses they cannot sell just to break even on the mortgages.... where are they going to move have money for an apartment, have money to move at all, for that matter, have money to live on while they find a job and again, what kind of job are they going to get when they are in their 30's, 40's and 50's have families to support and have shitty credit?
And how do you tell a man that he can no longer make enough to take care of his family?
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I agree that the loss of good jobs is devistating to people and communities.
I also have the view that "big business" doesn't care and has no responsiblity to take care of me and my family if my job is eleminated. I do support short-term legal obligations like COBRA, unemployment compensation, etc.
Given my view - if an employee gets complacent and starts to believe the corporate propaganda ("we are a family" "we care about our employees", "our employees are our #1 asset", etc, etc.) it is a mistake. A big mistake.
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Big business doesn't care...it's a cold world, every man for himself... blah blah blah ..... meanwhile the CEO's make more in 1 day than the average worker does in a year, and that's ok.... if anyone like myself has issues with it, then it's class envy.
Great excuse for not having to face societial demands and responsibilities.
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I am going to ask my wife (much more liberal and compasionate than I) to read what we have written on this subject to see if I have not been clear. Perhaps you can have someone do the same - and we can come back compare notes.
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That's a good idea and I would appreciate any TFP'ers opinions on this. Perhaps I am missing something, but truly all I see coming from you is it is the worker's responsibility and tough shit if they weren't prepared.
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Originally Posted by jorgelito
I think we need to parse this out more because I am in agreement with Ace here. I too share a similar "pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps-mentality" and experience. I lived in poverty and it sounds like Ace has too. Maybe we (all of us here) are oversimplifying the poverty aspect or something. The response above seems to indicate extreme poverty. I also accept that having children changes the dynamic as well.
I don't have alot of sources or references to go by, mostly my own experience, anecdotal, and observational.
But, we all have choices and make choices. Sound financial planning and budgeting is the first step. Smart consumer choices is another example. There are plenty of resources available to assist those that need it. Financial aid for education is quite generous. I knew alot of people on welfare growing up who lived better than me.
I worked 3 jobs to pay my way through community college before I discovered the joys of financial aid. Nothing glamorous: the video store, a pizza place, Starbucks...
I sacrificed and deferred gratification for years (still am). I budgeted accordingly, clipped coupons, made all my meals at home, found cheap housing and took public transportation. I never bought a PS2, had cable TV or even nice clothes. I had my friend cut my hair and I read books at the library for my entertainment. I used the schools computers for homework etc. I lived below my means.
Slowly but surely, I made it. I bought a computer with my first financial aid check. I continued good financial planning and saved every quarter. I quit smoking too. I only spent what I could afford. I am from the east coast, a high school drop out. I eventually got my GED and ended up on the West coast looking for better opportunities.
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You were young, didn't have a mortgage or family to feed, try doing it in your 30's or 40's when you have a family, mortgage and you can't pay for them and your credit turns to shit.