11-01-2006, 09:48 AM | #121 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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Tell the people that are working those 2 jobs and doing all they can to try to make it that they are feeling sorry for themselves and should move to where the jobs are, or go to school. Seriously Ace, your not showing anything except to blame the worker for everything.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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11-01-2006, 10:42 AM | #122 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I have never blamed any worker for the loss of jobs. However, the loss of jobs happens. I agree that the loss of good jobs is devistating to people and communities. I also have the view that "big business" doesn't care and has no responsiblity to take care of me and my family if my job is eleminated. I do support short-term legal obligations like COBRA, unemployment compensation, etc. Given my view - if an employee gets complacent and starts to believe the corporate propaganda ("we are a family" "we care about our employees", "our employees are our #1 asset", etc, etc.) it is a mistake. A big mistake. Given that I believe it is the responsibility of every working person to take a proactive role in their future and the security of their family. How do we do that??? Savings Education Training Owning assets Living below our means Networking "Realize it is never too late to take control" - Zig Ziggler Reading company financials and being prepared to move if needed. You seem to disagree with me. I don't understand why. I am going to ask my wife (much more liberal and compasionate than I) to read what we have written on this subject to see if I have not been clear. Perhaps you can have someone do the same - and we can come back compare notes.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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11-01-2006, 10:51 AM | #123 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Savings - in place of putting food on the table or paying rent?We can debate how they got to this point, but the fact is that there are millions of Americans facing this every day.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 11-01-2006 at 10:56 AM.. |
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11-01-2006, 11:01 AM | #124 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
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Just jumping in for a bit here...
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The only other option for the poorest of the poor to move is if they have some kind of social capital... networks, basically, that will enable them somehow to move to other places where they might know someone, and who can give them a loan for a while until they get on their feet. Even social capital, though, is worth something... and a lot of people don't even have that. And for them, their options ARE limited. Choice is not equally accessible for all humans on this earth; it is very unequally distributed, and persists over generations. Structural conditions impose limits on EVERYone, especially so on those who lack access to financial and social capital.
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
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11-01-2006, 11:01 AM | #125 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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What is your point? I know what can be done. I have seen it done. Perhaps a better question is - do you know anyone on the edge of poverty? If you do - what have they done to secure a better future? I want to know. Have you ever helped them? Have you ever talked to them? Why are they on the edge of poverty? I am begining to think you guys are just being disagreeable for the sake of being disagreeable.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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11-01-2006, 11:09 AM | #126 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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11-01-2006, 11:09 AM | #127 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 11-01-2006 at 11:14 AM.. |
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11-01-2006, 11:15 AM | #128 (permalink) | |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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I don't have alot of sources or references to go by, mostly my own experience, anecdotal, and observational. But, we all have choices and make choices. Sound financial planning and budgeting is the first step. Smart consumer choices is another example. There are plenty of resources available to assist those that need it. Financial aid for education is quite generous. I knew alot of people on welfare growing up who lived better than me. I worked 3 jobs to pay my way through community college before I discovered the joys of financial aid. Nothing glamorous: the video store, a pizza place, Starbucks... I sacrificed and deferred gratification for years (still am). I budgeted accordingly, clipped coupons, made all my meals at home, found cheap housing and took public transportation. I never bought a PS2, had cable TV or even nice clothes. I had my friend cut my hair and I read books at the library for my entertainment. I used the schools computers for homework etc. I lived below my means. Slowly but surely, I made it. I bought a computer with my first financial aid check. I continued good financial planning and saved every quarter. I quit smoking too. I only spent what I could afford. I am from the east coast, a high school drop out. I eventually got my GED and ended up on the West coast looking for better opportunities. |
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11-01-2006, 09:24 PM | #129 (permalink) | |||||||
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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I find that rather accusatory of the workers that have suffered layoffs and job losses. Maybe you don't, but I see a lot wrong in that statement and I pointed it out. Instead of debating anything I said in reply to that, you then posted this more self-righteous bs: Quote:
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Now then, somewhere along the line you must have missed where I stated these people that have lost their jobs cannot afford their mortgages, nor can they sell their houses to just pay off the mortgage. You seem to miss the point where I stated that the ABJ has had 7 pages of foreclosures in their legals. Yet you still believe that these workers should save, save what? Get education, how are they going to afford that, Ohio has the 4th highest state college tuitions, if you have a tax lien on your house or owe taxes in any form you cannot get financial aid for college, and yet these people are supposed to get educated somehow. Owning assets.... they've had to sell what they could to pay the mortgages. All of these people lost their medical too, some of them need meds, you have to pay out of your own pocket for COBRA, since they can barely afford to live they can't do that, nor can they get the meds they need...... guess who pays? The taxpayers.... guess who that is the rich because noone else can. (Hence more burden on the rich.) Live below their means? what do you think they were doing when the past 3 contracts came up and each time they took pay cuts and lower insurance benefits. They were struggling trying to make it when they had jobs. How much lower did they need to live? Networking.... with who? Take control of what? They have shit for credit, they have lost everything and you tell them it is their fault and they need to just buck up? How? You need decent credit to do anything and these people's credits are about toast. Company financials? Again, for Hoover and especially Timken the financials were not bad and did not demonstrate the need to close these plants. Prepared to move again is your answer...... how? Again, they have houses they cannot sell just to break even on the mortgages.... where are they going to move have money for an apartment, have money to move at all, for that matter, have money to live on while they find a job and again, what kind of job are they going to get when they are in their 30's, 40's and 50's have families to support and have shitty credit? And how do you tell a man that he can no longer make enough to take care of his family? Quote:
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 11-01-2006 at 09:26 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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11-01-2006, 09:38 PM | #130 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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A comparison to the poor of Darfur? Sure some "refugees in Dafur figured out a way to move." Packed in refugee camps in near starvation conditions beats being slaughtered.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 11-01-2006 at 10:13 PM.. |
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11-02-2006, 07:27 AM | #131 (permalink) | |||||||||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I have seen people on welfare save during the year, so they could have something special for their kids during the holidays. I have seen people "game" the system so they could get on their feet. I have seen parents send their kids to relatives until they could find a place to live, a job and save some money. Again all BS, right? Your BS doesn't fly with me because I am not a conservative who was born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I been there and it is still a part of me, and I still see it when I go home to visit friends and relatives. Quote:
I remenber when I was 10, I suggested that she stop and save the money. she didn't like my tone (suprise), slapped me in the face and I never made the suggestion again, but I should have. The point is that people can save if they want. Quote:
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If a person has not been doing the above, it is never too late to start, in my opinion. Quote:
Friends Church Groups Motorcycle Club groups Sewing circle TFP Hell - anyone, everyone... Quote:
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Moving from Detroit to get a job in the southwest beats being jobless and in poverty.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 11-02-2006 at 07:31 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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11-02-2006, 08:32 AM | #132 (permalink) |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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Thank you Ace. You explained your position better, I may not agree with it, but you made good counterpoints to mine and from there people can see the differences. Trust me as hard as some of it is to swallow, you do have some truth in there.
That was a debate, something we lack here on TFP. I stated my case, you countered and now the people decide at the ballot box by finding people who represent what we just said. (Personally, I would hope to think given what you have said and what I have said, there could be a middle ground for compromise in there.)
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
11-04-2006, 07:28 AM | #133 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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FYI - CBS Evening News on Friday did a segment on people moving to WY due to the boom in the coal industry in the state. In the segment they focused on two families who made the move. Not only did they find well paying stedy work, the move brought the families closer together.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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11-04-2006, 09:12 AM | #134 (permalink) |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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Ace, I agree with much of what you say in post #131. I can relate to several of your experiences. I am however concerned that in the not too distant future there will just not be enough jobs to go around and the wealth will become more and more concentrated in this country. I wonder what society's answer will be to this problem. Perhaps another WPA progam?
In another thread Walmart (Sams) was compared to Cosco where they have the same overall business income but Cosco does it with 30,000 less (higher paid) workers. Productivity increases will require less workers. Eventually just moving to a new area may not help but I guess we can take a world view and look to other countries for work as many who immigrate here do. |
11-04-2006, 09:32 AM | #135 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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People will adapt as they always have. I am not worried.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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11-04-2006, 09:45 AM | #136 (permalink) | |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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I am not so sure about this new service oriented economy, we can't all deliver each other pizzas. I realize that most of the growth is in the service sector but with everyone becoming lawyers, stockbrockers, teachers, insurance salesmen, etc... where is the wealth going to come from? |
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