dc_dux

I didnt want to divert the discussion to my past place of employment, but your comment about the article on employement practices in the Senate is just factually incorrect:

Here is an somthing I found, to me suggesting cronyism more so than racism, regardless - many major employers have ended up in court defending against prima facia evidence like this suggesting violations of the Civil Rights Act.

There are no violations of the Civil Rights Act.

The statement in the article that best describes the employment record:

Paul Thornell, a former Senate and White House staffer who is black, says most senators will tell you, privately, that they hire from within, promoting senior staffers from the junior ranks. But with so few people of color on Senate staffs, that policy guarantees the status quo will remain in place for years to come.

"I truly believe that the source of the problem is not overt discrimination that keeps people of color out of these positions. The hiring process is a broken one that has resulted in relatively few people of color in senior policymaking positions," says Thornell, senior vice president, public policy and field leadership, United Way of America. "Limited networks and candidate pools [and] the practice of hiring from within without a pipeline of existing minority employees are some of the dynamics that contribute to this situation."

Of course there are diversity issues in the Senate staff, in part, because unlike retail employment, there is a natural political component. Just as there are diversity issues in the makeup of the Senate itself.

I simply dont see how a further discussion of that has anything to do with Wamart's record.

But others are addressing the Walmart issue quite well without me.

Just for the record, I also applaud Walmart's recently announced environmental initiative:
But that doesnt take away from its abysmal employment record, by far the worst in the US retail sector.

Or its equally abysmal past environmental record:

__________________
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aceventura3

I do care about violations of the law. I agree that Walmart has violated the law. I agree that Walmart should pay a price for violating the law. I think major corporations who have a blatant disregard for the law should be put out of business. Walmart has 1.8 million employees. Walmart does not have a blatant disregard for the law.

I agree if I get a speeding ticket when eveyone else is speeding, the fact I got the ticket means I broke the law and saying everyone else was doing it is not a defense. But that doesn't mean I am a bad citezen simply because I got a speeding ticket, or does it?

Walmart is using tactics against the Unions. And the Unions are using tactics against Walmart. Walmart is winning. It is a war. I just want people to understand that Walmart will try to manipulate public opinion, but so will Unions.

If "mom and pop" try to compete against Walmart based on price or their supply chain, they are idiots. All they need to do is pick a weakness and exploit that, like knowledgable sales staffs who can actually help cusomers or perhaps higher quality merchandise, etc.

You call it worker abuse. The facts support Walmart does want is common practice in the industry.

i don't shop at Walmart. They are not a monopoly. I respect the history of the company and how Sam Walton turned grew the company

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"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

What facts?

Do you have examples from the other top 10 retail companies you listed that are consistently cited for not paying overtime to hourly workers as required by the FLSA?

The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires that all “hours worked” be counted when determining overtime hours earned. Federal and (most) state law require that overtime eligible employees be paid 1.5 times their regular hourly rate for all hours worked in excess of 40 hours in the workweek

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
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aceventura3

The point is that any large employer can be targetted and made to look bad when it comes to employment law.

Look at post 39 to start.

Seems like we been down this road. Didn't you say that for example your employer had nothing to do with Walmart's track record. I don't know how to respond to this question, are you suggesting Walmart is the only to ten retailer who has violated FLSA? What threashold should be used to prove "consistantly"?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

roachboy

the economy of scale advantage causes walmart to act like a monopoly--particularly in its refusal to even acknowledge the facts about its own labor practices. contrary to the trend amongst tncs toward greater transparency, walmart remains systematic in its resistance. wlamart appears to assume that its size makes it different from other firms. that is thinking like a monopoly. hayek said that monopolies tend to substitute their internal culture, its values and its ways of carving up information, for reality...this because firm's only coherent view of their own performance--price and its history in a context of competition--has been distorted or eliminated. they ACT LIKE a monopoly.

2. when you can "the facts" as they pertain to walmart's--um---particular kind of labor practices, what are you referring to? walmart's webpage? have you done any actual research on this, or are you so sure that you are right that research seems secondary?

if you like, i can post a raft of links to reports concerning walmart's labor practices. i havent time at the moment, or i'd have skipped this step.

in general, tho, i would think this a good time to present data--so if others whose arguments run parallel to mine have a chance, post away....

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pan6467

Ask RubberMaid what Wal*Mart did to them.

RubberMaid was a very profitable company that paid their workers very well.

All of a sudden Wal*Mart decided to cut RubberMaid's prices without RubberMaid's consent.

When RubberMaid argued and said "no, we will not cut our prices".

Wal*Mart dropped RubberMaid products (as an example of what they can do to companies) put in the cheaper Sterilite products (by the way Wal*Mart owns a portion of). Sterilite and their subsidiaries (such as North Canton Plastics) hire from temp services then cut those employees before they are eligible for full time, or in NCP's case they only have 10 full time billets (which include the receptionist, the shop mechanics, the 3 officers and 3 shift supervisors). This way they do not have to pay things such as insurance, unemployment, workers comp. etc. They pay the temp service basically $8.50 per person and the temp service pays $6.50 per person.

So in essence you have destroyed well paying jobs for jobs that people cannot afford to live on, have no benefits (no vacation time, and you call in sick one time, you can lose your job). And yet, Neo-cons are okay with the movement backwards and believe this is ok.

That is what Wal*Mart produces, and the practices they execute.

Would a union help? Perhaps. But what is more important is for people to stand up and say, "enough, pay workers liveable wages. Stop the bullshit."

How anyone can defend these practices is beyond me.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Cynthetiq

cut prices without their consent? one cannot cut prices and get goods without some sort of consent.

did they say, something along the lines of "this is the price we'd like to pay for your goods? if you cannot compete we'll find another company that can..."

seems fair to me in a capitalism based system.

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aceventura3

I posted facts in post 39. Cashiers in grocery stores earn on average $7.80 to $7.92. Walmart pays on average $7.92. If on average and if true, unionized employees earn 30% more, a union cashier makes $10.29/hour. The union cashier would make $21,415 per year if the person worked full- time, 40 hours per week. Pan says $20,000 is not a livable wage, seems like he should have a problem with an entire industry rather than a single company. Roachboy says Walmart hsa a monopolistic attitude, but a cashier can work for any company they want, even unionized companies and make more money, right? Well in some cases wrong. Walmart often hires people with little or no experience and trains them. After they get training and experience, then they can go to work anywhere they want. That is a good deal in my book.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Cynthetiq

how much of union members wages go to union dues and fees? because money going to unions is less money going to spend on things that one needs, food, housing, etc. if the argument is that union members get higher wages, just how much of that is real dollar value?

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flstf

It's not Republicans or Democrats for that matter who are responsible for the downward trend in retail wages. It is because of the large number of people who endorse these policies by shopping there. The average shopper does not give a darn what the employees are paid, only where they can get items for the lowest price. People vote with their feet and seem to like Wal-Mart's prices and most would probably encourage them to lower wages even more if they could pay less for things.

pan6467

What Wal*Mart did is basically told RubberMaid "This is what your product will sell for, and this is what we will pay." Hence, RubberMaid ending up out and Sterilite in.

This is all fact that I posted awhile ago in here with the newspaper story and I believe, interviews of RubberMaid officials linked.

True, that is why people need to truly be told and open their eyes to what is happening.

Also, when people are paid less they look for the cheaper prices because they have to out of necessity.

There is no reason on God's green Earth that people who work 40 hour weeks cannot be paid at least $35,000/yr. Perhaps, if we paid more, we wouldn't have to have both parents work, and thus we wouldn't be expecting the schools to babysit, teach morals and raise our kids.

Aw well, keep paying people shit, keep lowering prices and quality (and by lowering quality that means that you end up having to pay more in the long run because the product falls apart faster and then you need to buy a new one). Eventually, even Wal*Mart will be too expensive and people will go to Dollar Generals.

Yes, the inconsequential items are falling and will, but health insurance, medical care, utilities and so on will keep going up. And your dollar will buy less and less no matter how far down those non-essential prices fall.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Cynthetiq

as far as Rubbermaid is concerned, again, if they cannot compete then that's the breaks. Isn't the whole idea of a capitalistic driven society at the heart of this? Woolworth used to be shizzle some time in the past for similar practices, but you'd be hard pressed to find any remnants of Mr. Woolworth's legacy. Eventually someone came around and did it better.

As far as $35,000 wages, for uneducated workers (meaning non college grads) then what should college grads make? Or better yet what's the incentive to continue to have any intellectuals?

__________________
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roachboy

i do not know the particulars of the rubbermaid case, but it sounds to me like walmart engaged in the retail version of dumping. walmart is able to absorb losses generated by predatory pricing of particular commodities and so is able to sell them at prices well below the cost of their production if they decide for whatever reason to target a particular competitor. the ability to absorb such losses are a scale effect. this situation would then be understandable as a conflict involving two very different types of organization, operating on two different scales.

you might be able to argue that such practices are within the rules of the capitalist game---i am not so sure--but there is another way to evaluate them: what kind of economy would you prefer to operate in as a human being? one dominated by low cost low quality goods or a more diversified economy with different types of scale coexisting? it seems to me that walmart functions as if its model--low cost, low quality---should naturally supercede all other models because all that matters is price. from walmart's viewpoint, this might make sense, but from the viewpoint of consumers, it does not. coexistence would not be a problem if walmart did not choose to target competitors and put them out of business--so the problems walmart creates at this level are a function of its particular ways of thinking and acting strategically.

from this viewpoint, you could make an argument that walmart's practices do not benefit stakeholders, only shareholders. stakeholders would include not only walmart consumers but entire communities impacted by walmart--if that is the case, then the criteria for making judgments about walmart cannot be confined to simple questions of price--here as in almost every other area that has been talked about in this thread, the narrow view is inadequate.

if you are going to defend walmart, then defend the outcomes implied by its practices: explain to me how a retail economy dominated by low cost low quality goods is a necessary good. what i see in the above is the tacit assumption that walmart is good for poorer folk because poorer folk deserve only low cost low quality goods---this is an implication of the assumption that demand shapes supply, when the fact of the matter is that demand follows supply.

another way: if a firm like walmart eliminates diversity within a particular economic sector, folk will then "choose" what remains.
arguments about demand justifying walmart's practices then are circular.


one more: i think the folk who defend walmart's practice do so because they are not themselves caught by these practices--they can shop at macy's or bonwit teller as a simple function of their class position--so questions concerning walmart are abstractions for them, and their implications are confined to other people--who are assumed to be less than you because they do not have the same material advantages as you.
poorer folk can eat shit because that is all they deserve.
walmart is a space where shit is cheap.
the poor can go eat there.
maybe you will think about this as you drive your benzo to a better retail district.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

Rubber Maid is a $8 billion company. In 2005 they had $6 billion in sales. I think they can manage with or without Walmart.

Total US retail sales runs about $2 trillion per year, Walmart's sales run about $300 billion. 15% is a big percentage of the total but far from domination.

Do you think it would be better for a few companies to work together to control the market and prices. I prefer competition, even if it means some businesses will fail or be driven out of business. Remember, Teddy Rosevelt, the Trust Buster. The anti-competition conglomerates were 100 times worse than what you think Walmart is.

Walmart has made countless people very weathy, shareholders - yes. But also think of the folks who stated with a single product that they got Walmart to carry. Think of the suppliers (all who desprately want to do business with Walmart), think of the contractors who build the stores, think of the employees who choose to work at Walmart. Think of the families who need those inexpensive products, like diapers, or toys for their children. Do you think that's a narrow view?

I think Walmart has many of the name brand goods that you can find in other places. I am not sure about clothing.

My wife likes Target, for what reason I don't know. Target seems the same as Walmart to me. I like Costco and Sears. I never shop at expensive department stores unless they are having a sale. In my area, anyone can shop at any of those places, rich or poor. I think your comment is unfair.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

pan6467

Actually, because of what Wal*Mart did, Rubbermaid ended up having to sell to Newell in 1999, cut jobs in Wooster and Ashland Ohio and move their factories to cheaper labor (mostly overseas and to Mexico).

The problem with Wal*Mart and the business practice is that even at the higher price, RubberMaid was outselling Sterilite and it wasn't even close. The market supported RubberMaid's prices and thus the wages and benefits they paid.

But when Wal*Mart pulls your product off the shelf because they decided to lower your price to where you could not afford it, it's a hit.

When Rubbermaid shows retailers a new color (cool blue) and tells them in 6 months it will be out, and then Wal*Mart pulls your product leaving only your competitor (partly owned by Wal*Mart) Sterilite as the only source of that type of product in Wal*Mart, and they come out with the color in 4 months.... there are serious issues there.

When a non unionized company that had one of the best employee relationships in the country, never a layoff, is forced to sell and change it's labor practices not because the market couldn't support their price, but because the company that sold 20% of your product decides you need to cut your prices so that you lose money...... there are serious issues that need to be looked at.

This was 1 company, how many others had that problem with Wal*Mart but did as they had to and thus cut labor costs. Rubbermaid was a great example and Wal*Mart I'm sure used that example to scare and control other companies.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

aceventura3

Perhaps Rubber Maid got complacent.

I don't know about you, but I am never going to feel sorry for a company generating anywhere close to $6 billion in sales with 30% gross profit margins.

http://ir.newellrubbermaid.com/relea...leaseID=205448

In fact after looking over the financials NWL may prove to be a good stock to invest in. Thanks for the tip.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

pan6467

I stated look at what they did to that company. When Wal*Mart in the 90's decided to play the games with Rubbermaid, the company was profitable, but the employees got to share in that profit, the community (Wooster Oh) got to share in the success.

When Wal*Mart decided to play their games and sales dropped, Rubbermaid was forced to sell to Newell, just to stay alive.

Now, of course they make that kind of profit they shipped all the jobs overseas and to Mexico. Pretty much destroying a whole region here, in this country.

So again, I ask, why? Why did Wal*Mart feel it necessary to take a company's product, they did not have a problem moving at the price they offered it, lower the price, then kicking out the product, until...... they were hurting and sold to Newell?

I wonder how many other companies Wal*Mart has blackmailed and treated in such a way.

I find it pathetic that people would rather see a gross profit margin of 30% and communities destroyed, tax revenue lost and good paying jobs disappear... then to take notice of what truly is going on and saying enough.

How many workers do you think in Mexico can buy shares of Newell? How many ex-employees of Rubbermaid lost health insurance (now when they go tax money pays, their credit goes to shit and so on), the tax money that went to unemployment, the small businesses that relied on those workers business, the city, county and state that lost tax revenue and now have to make up for it by raising income taxes or lowering services, education standards, and so on.

This is just one example..... but hey it's fucking ok. because even though now that those people lost their jobs and tax payers had to eat a loss..... the company shows a profit.... even though they now make it all overseas, pay shit wages and non of the employees can afford to truly buy any stock in the company to reap any rewards.

But it's ok, because Wal*Mart got to lower the price...... the product is shit and not nearly as durable and as reliable as it was. But that's capitalism.... fuck the worker, fuck the community, fuck everyone as long as we make profit. Even if eventually, we don't have any customers because they can't afford the product any longer.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

aceventura3

Sorry for continuing to show Rubber Maid may have had issues other than Walmart, but here is an excerpt for a Business Week article in 2003 on the merger.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...4137_mz026.htm
These companies generated $262 million in net profit on $7.7 billion in sales. The company invested heavily in the Rubber Maid brand and the article suggests that Newell overpaid for the company. Rubber maid was a company on the decline before and after Walmart.

These facts suggest that Rubber Maid was complacent. A big fat happy corporation taking things for granted. As Jim Cramer says - "...pigs get slaughtered"

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

roachboy

so let's see where things now stand.

you, ace, appear to be so constituted that you cannot take seriously any objections to walmart's labor practices, or to the problematic labor practices that are the direct result of walmart's pricing policies.
you exclude working people from your arguments about low prices, which you seem to see as the outcome of the play of abstract forces.

beneath this there seems to be an outmoded friedmanite view of things according to which only capital creates wealth--the only interests a firm is obligated to take into account are those of the shareholders--you have not caught up with the notion of stakeholder, presumably because that would involve you in a way of thinking about capitalist activity as a social activity and not as something restricted to a special area of human activity we call the economy, which somehow floats above the rest of social lofe, subject to its own laws, etc.

when walmart's predatory location practices are singled out, you counter with the assumption that such practices are a natural extension of capitalist activity and that coexistence of different types of distribution systems (which would result in a diversity of types of market activity) presupposes price collusion.
i dont follow this line of thinking at all.
what you seem to me to be doing is repeating the logic of capitalism as war that is at the root of many of the dysfunctions the system generates for everyone.
one reason that so many tncs--with the exception of flinstone outfits like walmart--have abandoned such logic is that it is, in the end, self-defeating. bad for business. good for ideologues, perhaps, but bad for actual business IF anything beyond short-term profits are relevant.

the idea that it even makes sense for a firm like walmart to target other types of distribution systems and run them out of business has nothing really to do with the kind of competition you seem to value: it has more to do with the logic of concentration than with that of competition. you say you value competition, but your refusal to differentiate between types of competition indicates that you have no real problem with concentration, even if it comes at the expense of quality of life--particularly not if the quality of life most heavily and adversely impacted is that of working people.



but shareholder interest is not the only relevant interest.
but that of course is a function of other considerations.
if you like capitalism as a social system, you should also be inclined to consider long-term interests.
erasing all but shareholder interests is a sure way to implode the system you cheerlead for.
the primary reason why shareholder theory has been abandoned in favor of stakeholder theory is simply that shareholder theory is only functional in contexts where short term economic thinking can be hegemonic. in teh real world, where you have to look at forces not registered on the stock exchange in addition to financial performance, shareholder theory has been proven to be self-defeating.
most international economic institutions understand this.
most governments understand this.
most auditing firms understand
most ngos understand.
nike understands; adidas understands; royal dutch shell understands; most automobile manufacturers understand; in fact, most mncs and tncs understand--but you do not.
there is a real gap between how the vast majority of tncs and mncs operate and how walmart operates--you dont seem to get that.
walmart is a kind of pathological anomaly

oh yeah--well, i am sure that these folk are delighted...i wonder how manyof them actually are discrete individuals and how many of these individuals retain control over their products?

now you are dreaming, ace. walmart's suoply chain comes with very heavy prices to be paid: no space for anoever on the part of suppliers--the only increase in profits they will get comes from increasing the exploitation of their workforce--walmart lowballs their suppliers, they are the garbage heap of tnc supply chains, not only encouraging but effectively forcing the worst kinds of labor abuses.

but do the research for yourself--the facts are easy to find on this one.


i am doing that right now.

[/QUOTE]think of the employees who choose to work at Walmart.[/QUOTE]

um...there is already enough information in this thread about walmart's labor practices in the states. not going for this one again. not worth it.

give me a break, ace.

um....yes.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Cynthetiq

what does friedmanite mean?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

roachboy

sorry about that
friedmanite refers to milton friedman.
the -ite part is an old trotskyist joke--if you like trotskyism, then the trot groups were trotskyists; if you didnt, then they were -ites.

anyway, according to milton freidman, a firm's only obligation is to increase shareholder profit.
he published an article about this in the nyt sunday magazine in 1970 and for some reason it caught on.

here's a link to the article:

http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroup...-business.html

stakeholder theory is a term from business ethics that tries to extend the notion of corporate responsibility beyond the shareholders (who remain stakeholders, just not the only ones) to include the communities affected by corporate actions.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pan6467

Ummmmm have you listened to a word I said?

You focus everything on this merger. Cool, but around 20 years ago, Rubbermaid was one of the hottest companies, and was consistently voted as one of the best places to work. It made sure the community around it thrived.

Then about 10 years ago, Rubbermaid still enjoying it's reputation and position (NEVER ONCE HAVING HAD A LAYOFF OR SHOWN A LOSING QUARTER), Wal*Mart decides people who are paying the money and there was no decline in sales, are paying too much for Rubbermaid. That Rubbermaid is overcharging. So Wal*Mart decided to SET THE PRICE and told Rubbermaid to take it or leave it. Rubbermaid could not sell their product for a loss and was pulled. Until Rubbermaid was bought a few years later by Newell.

Sooooo while you focus on this merger and blah blah blah..... you miss the most important part.

SINCE WHEN DOES A COMPANY SET THE PRICE IT WILL PAY A SUPPLIER, ESPECIALLY ON A PRODUCT THAT SELLS VERY WELL AND THE PRICE DROP ISN'T NEEDED?

Now if Wal*Mart had shown they weren't selling any Rubbermaid or Li'l Tikes that would be one thing. Then I could see a need for maybe negotiating a price drop. BUT Rubbermaid was fucking selling and doing a damned good business, when Wal*Mart said, "lower your prices to an unsustainable level or be pulled."

Wal*Mart knew WTF they were doing because they bought a nice piece of Sterilite at the time and started pushing......... Sterilite, which is an inferior quality, the market knew this and didn't buy Sterilite,the market was still buying Rubbermaid.

So where's the loyalty to the worker, to the company that you had no problem selling to begin with?

Now, you talk to me about Capitalism and letting the market set the price and blah blah blah..... but then you defend this type of business practice? The market had set the price and the product was moving, very well. The community, the worker and Rubbermaid were doing extremely well and Wal*Mart set out to destroy that. And they did.

Now Rubbermaid pretty much produces everything in Mexico and overseas, the workers are trying to find wages that will pay them enough to pay the mortgages and car payments, the community lost tax revenue and a community that was thriving has been destroyed. And those workers now, that could shop at higher end stores now have to shop at lower end stores like ........ Wal*Mart.

I wonder how many other businesses have suffered similar fates because of Wal*Mart's business practices.

On a side note, I have stated before my dad does the contract work building Wal*Marts. I can tell you this right now, to say Wal*Mart keeps the contractors in business, is a joke. They pay bare minimum to the contractors, making sure union contractors don't get in, and that the contractors make very little on the construction. And the people my dad bid against, are Mexican construction companies, or companies that are known to hire illegals and thus do not have to have worker's comp, pay payroll taxes etc.

So again, companies that benefit America are getting shafted.

I only hope and pray people start seeing this, are told this and decide to boycott Wal*Mart...... ah but there is the rub, if people aren't making any money, they have no way to shop other places do they?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Cynthetiq

Again, I'm deferring to the fact that capitalism is alive and well. If I want to provide products for my customers at a particular amount, then that is what I will look for. Look at the dollar stores. They exist in all areas and countries (while not a dollar but the equivalent.)

Consumers don't want to spend alot on goods that they cannot tell the difference in quality. Period. Plain and simple.

Do you want to know OTHER companies that did this? Garment manufacturers in NYC all went out of business in the Garment district in the 90s. What caused it? The competition of lower wages via NAFTA.

What did designers say to the manufacturers? I want it at this price... if you can't provide it at this price, I'll take my business elsewhere. The company I worked for is barely eeking a living now when before they were a wonderful cash business that thrived in a recession economy in the early 90s.

Again, capitalistic society, capitalistic market forces.

It's just like the real estate market, buyer's market and seller's market. You hope that when your time comes that you are on the right side of the fence whichever that may be.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

pan6467

Rubbermaid WAS SELLING. WTF........ ok I own a store, I'm selling widgets made by company A and they are selling great. My customers don't complain about the price.... they're satisfied with the quality of the product and pay the price asked.

But I go and buy part of company A's competition, company B and promote them.

People still buy company A's product because it is superior and company B's product sits there unsold.

So I lower the price on company A's product to where they lose money and tell them to either accept it or be pulled. I know what the answer will be so I load up on company B.

I pull company A, load up on company B. Then since I own part of company B, I reap the rewards.

By pulling company A, I also know they have to raise their prices at my competitors stores also, thereby making me more suitable because I offer lower prices.

To say this is ok or this is how business is ran and be accepting of it, is suicidal to the economy. This is not capitalism, you are not letting the market set the price..... THEY ALREADY HAD. You are manipulating the market, to get the price you want and the product you want sold sold.

Sooooooo if people couldn't tell the difference in quality, why did Rubbermaid with a higher price still outsell Sterilite, until Wal*Mart had to set a price and literally pull them off the shelves?????????

There is no way to defend this except for the "well the stock now is....."

or wellll noone notices quality they just look at price....... BULLSHIT, that was NOT the case. The people WERE BUYING it and leaving the cheaper product on the shelves.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

aceventura3

This is good for the next time I fail in a business venture - Blame my biggest customer.

What I find hard to believe is that the failed management at Rubber Maid has people actually believing that they failed because of Walmart. that is amazing PR, don't you agree?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Cynthetiq

So the garment center imploded on it's own as did Rubbermaid. NY historically had effective and efficient garment workers, union and non union.

Companies want profitability, public or private.

If people wanted rubbermaid products they could have easily bought them ELSEWHERE. People chose to not. It's quite simple. If I want a particular brand where I care about brand, that's what I look for.

Personally I don't like the Sterilite, I find it inferior in quality for my long term storage solutions which have the most finite space. But simple organizational boxes, the Sterilite is sufficient. At Target I see both products on the shelves and I buy what is my needs which is mostly about cost. When I've needed to replace the rubbermaid product I will replace it as such (I've had to do so already once for some reason which I don't remember.)

But again, I'm going to defer to the consumer and market forces.

Whole Foods has shut down cheaper markets around Union Square. Trader Joe's opened up not too far away and it may jeopardize another couple markets where the CHEAPER goods are located.

People vote with their wallets. Plain and simple.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

pan6467

How were the people voting with their wallets??????? Rubbermaid was still outselling Sterilite. The people voted and Rubbermaid was winning.

Wal*Mart simply said "fuck what the market price is, WE'LL set the market price."

Wal*Mart, owning Sterilite could easily have set the price on Sterilite so low that people would have chosen Sterilite and then Rubbermaid would have had to lower their price...... but that didn't work. People still bought Rubbermaid.

No, it's not amazing PR, it's the truth. And yes, when your biggest customer owns your competitor, sets your prices so that you lose money and pulls your product off the shelves because even at a higher price people are voting and showing the price for the product is reasonable and still buying it and leaving the product you own the manufacturing to, on the shelves.

And of course once that company loses it's biggest customer they have to raise the price everywhere else and they still sold..... but not what they were selling, because you effectively priced them out of the market through your own manipulations.

You then created your own market for your own product. Now your competitors are selling a product you own because they have to compete with you.

So not onlky did Wal*Mart pull Rubbermaid (thus forcing Rubbermaid to raise prices everywhere else) but you now created a market for their competition that is owned by you. So now even your competitors are buying your product to sell.

Hey Zeus Freaking Crisp........ keep trying to defend this, you are showing nothing but a defense in how to manipulate the market, not allow the market to expand and move forward but to tighten up and become monopolized... thus you can still control the price.

Coming into a market offering cheaper goods and letting the market decide is one thing..... having to lower the price of something to a loss for the manufacturer (while owning the competition) then pulling the product off the shelves so that only your product is there is manipulation of the market.

For people so defensive about how great capitalism is and how the market needs to set the price..... you sure do defend manipulation well.

This kind of manipulation leads to monopolies, less choices on the market, lower wages, less competiton and and the need to find and exploit cheaper labor.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Cynthetiq

You don't shop at Walmart do you? That's voting with your wallet.

I don't shop at Sears because of deceptive automotive practices unless there is a sale. Each time I've been there it's been a challenge if not difficult. Again, voting with my wallet.

No one forces a consumer to shop at Walmart.

You're making it sound like Rubbermaid doesn't sell at alternative locations like Ace Hardware, Costco, CVS, Home Depot, Kroger, Lowe's, Rite-Aid, True Value, Family Dollar, and Dollar General. According to their website they are carried at Sam's Club and Walmart.

You cater to a clientele, you try to guess what that clientele wants to buy and how much they want to pay for it. If one supplier cannot supply you goods at the cost you think your clientele will buy, then you find another.

Again, why is this wrong in a capitalistic society?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

pan6467

It would be fine, but the people had voted, had showed what they wanted and Wal*Mart made the decision to say "fuck what the people want."

They owned the competition, they knew pulling Rubbermaid would make a market for their own product that they couldn't sell. It's manipulation.... not capitalism, not choice..... manipulation of the market.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Cynthetiq

And again, if they REALLY wanted Rubbermaid product they could easily have gone to any of the other stores. Home Depot, Lowe's, True Value, ACE, are all nationwide chains and affliliates.

People are lazy if they don't care about a brand. Plain and simple.

How is that manipulating? The consumer is free to shop elsewhere. Because they said they won't carry a product that didn't match their business objectives? Walmart is not the sole supplier of Rubbermaid products and goods in any market.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

roachboy

if a state engaged in the practices walmart did in the context of pan's rubbermaid example, that state would be accused--rightfully--of dumping.
the premise of dumping regulations is that it is understood as a fundamentally unfair trade practice.
which means that there is at some level an assumption concerning fairness in trading that is built into the rules that shape capitalist activity.
the question of why the state can be guilty of dumping can be linked to that of scale: the state operates with resources that enable firms that benefit from them to engage in unfair forms of competition--like selling good below the cost of production.

walmart exploits its scale to absorb losses they might incurby selling rubbermaid goods below cost. because walmart is not a state apparatus, legally it is not dumping--but it is a good example of predatory pricing practices. which walmart is famous for.

are the only limits of capitalist activity what is illegal?
does the standard of fairness in trade apply only to states?
beyond that anything goes?
how is that functional?
how is that fair?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pan6467

What business objectives????? I own your competitor, I no longer need you. So instead of raising your price and making it unaffordable here, I'll lower your price force you to lose money..... then when that won't work pull you off my shelves and thus force you to raise your price everywhere else.

Then I come in with my little piss ant company (that competitor I bought) and say "put me on your shelves."

The fact is when they were pulled off Wal*Mart shelves they still sold..... until Wal*Mart sent in Sterilite at prices that were unreasonably low.

They manipulated the market.

They took a company that paid decent wages and destroyed it. plain and simple.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

filtherton

From what i gather in this thread, it is fair because it occured in a capitalist economy. Apprently, if something occurs in a free market situation it is always fair and always the most ideal way it could've happened. I think this position is bullshit, btw.

Cynthetiq

So Microsoft sells Xboxs at below cost because they can make up the difference via licensing software to run on Xboxe, is that also considered dumping?

From what I understand dumping is selling your product at one price in one market, then selling it in another in a different market, which the japanese electronics groups have been accused of many times and sometimes proven.

At what point is a loss leader a valuable sales tactic to many stores on Black Friday become this dumping tactic?

Again, no one forces people to purchase goods at Walmart.

Rubbermaid products are available at many other stores.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Ustwo

A poor quality orthodontist about a mile from me has cut her fees to well below mine in an attempt to syphon business from me.

I wish the government would step in and get rid of this unfair competition.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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dc_dux

Many states have "predatory pricing" laws where predatory pricing is defined as "sales below cost by a dominant firm over a long enough period of time for the purpose of driving a competitor from the market; the predator firm then raises prices to supracompetitive levels to recoup its losses and render the practice profitable." They are commonly called "sales-below-cost" laws.

The state of Wisconsin was the first state to file a complaint againt Walmart in 2001 for predatory pricing:

Predatory pricing is difficult to prove, particularly the "intent" to drive competitors out of business.

********
UStwo.....if her practice was larger than yours (e.g. she had a chain that dominated the orthodontist practice in your state) and she was pricing below cost ONLY at the one near you (making profit at her other locations) for the purpose of driving you out of business, then raising her prices again after you have been effectively removed from the market...

.... you might very well have a predatory pricing complaint.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

and that I can agree with and get behind, but if the offer is fair to everyone at all locations, then it's fair in the rules of free market.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

pan6467

What I fail to see is that you had a company Rubbermaid, selling at a price that the public set and yet it wasn't good enough for Wal*Mart.

Wal*Mart then pulls the product and sells only their own product?

So basically what you are saying is, "fuck the public, fuck the company because they have one of the best employee/employer relationships".

And yes, Rubbermaid's sales still were strong outside of Wal*Mart, but losing your biggest outlet and having to raise prices everywhere else is a hit that is hard to recover from.

Wal*Mart effectively destroyed Rubbermaid, their employees, a community and made a market for their own half assed made shit.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Cynthetiq

edit: I'm sorry, the PUBLIC set the price??? Where did the PUBLIC set the price on Rubbermaids goods? The public purchased the goods because they thought the prices was FAIR. because if the public set the price they'd want it to be free....

I'd also state that Walmart is part of "public"


And is that not what a free market dictates????

If the consumer consumes it then it's what the consumer wants. We have shitty television because that's what the consumer apparently wants, research and development shows and supports this trend.

Research and development probably factored in with respect to Walmart's sales as well.

Does it make it right or wrong? I vote that it does neither. People vote with their wallets.

I have lots of mom and pop shops in my neighborhood. If I don't buy at their stores they either have to entice me or others to do so. If they do not, they fail as a business. Cuttthroat sure, but unfair? Isn't that the nature of business in a capitalistic society?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Ustwo

So gas price wars are predatory too?

What if someone was rich and just wanted to do the work at cost for the love of it?

While I don't LIKE that someone is trying to undercut me, shes married and has a husband who is a dentist, odds are they don't need the money directly like I would, its part of the free market. I in turn offer superior hours, service and have a better rapor with my patients, which off sets her lower prices.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.