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09-10-2006, 01:58 PM | #1 (permalink) | |||||||||
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9/11 Fifth Anniversary: Discuss Our Leaders' Versions of What They Did That Morning
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There was no "TV" that "was obviously on", in the "hallway" that Bush was not "waiting in", and there was no broadcast, at the time that he stated, that televised what he told the child at the December, 2001 town meeting, the he, Bush, could have watched to see the airliner crash into WTC1.... ....and a month later, Bush repeated this impossible to believe (IMO) "story": Quote:
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Another curiousity is that Norman Mineta, in sworn testimony, contradicted Cheney's account of when Cheney arrived at the PEOC, by at least 30 minutes: Quote:
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Five years later, why doesn't the president and the vice-president do the brief, and probably nearly effortless....."work" of laying the ambiguities in their statements and actions on 9/11, to rest.....once and for all, by holding a joint news conference, with Mr. Runsfeld and Norman Mineta, to answer our questions, and clear our confusion....that they've caused....up...once and for all.....for the historical record, and to confirm that our trust, in them.... is warranted! |
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09-10-2006, 02:38 PM | #2 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Hopefully no one who has even a passing interest in politics takes the 9/11 report seriously. Whether liberal or conservative, whether 9/11 conspiracy theorist or not, whether a Bush supporter or not, we can all see that the comission was a joke in the worst possible way. It was theatre put on for the shallow entertainment of the masses to satiate a well wetted apetite for justice; or more accurately vengence. That hunger for justice remains because their show was so poorly put together (perhaps they should have consulted with J.J. Abrahms before submitting the final script). The taste for vengence has been replaced by apathy due to ongoing war and fear. It really seemed on the surface to be a perfect plan, but the holes are so large and numerous that when reading through the damned report, I fear falling through it into nothingness.
Historical records have suffered. While a multitude of books seeking the truth have come out, I've read more than a few social studies text books lately that give horrible misinformation for our children to ignore in overcrowded classrooms. While a few of our children might hold tight to the little information that we have (maybe host should publish his memoirs sooner then later), the masses will dully think back to the day when Iraq blew up the twin towers and was the source of global terrorism, and how we lost tens of thousands of troops trying to win back our dignity. They will think back to when we destroyed Iran for developing nuclear weapons. When we stoped the drug regeims in Venesuela by burning the country to the ground. How we brought democracy to so many countries, only to have us take it away. Stories from uncles and fathers that serve in the Second Gulf War will be the foundation of everything from entertaining movies to alcoholism and PTSD. This is our legacy. |
09-10-2006, 03:07 PM | #3 (permalink) |
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Sorry Will, I didn't get the memo on that one. Why was the 9/11 commission a joke?
__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty |
09-10-2006, 03:43 PM | #4 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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1) MASSIVE bias. Philip Zelikow was appointed by Bush, serving on his Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, spent at least 3 years on King George I's National Security Council, and co-wrote a book with Condaleeeeeza (I can never spell her name right). Thomas Kean served on the the Board of Directors of the National Endowment for Democracy, a long-time conduit of CIA covert operations internationally. Kean has links to Saudi Arabian investors who supported George W. and Osama bin Laden (such as Khalid bin Mahfouz). Kean is or was on the boards of Pepsi Bottling, Amerada Hess, UnitedHealth Group, CIT Group and Aramark. Freddy Fielding worked for several Bush fund raisers, and is a lobiest for Spirit and United Airlines. Slade Gorton (arch enemy to the Teen Titans) has many close ties to Boeing - the producers of the planes supposedly used on 9/11 - and his legal firm represents several major airlines, such as Delta. James Thompson is the HEAD of a firm that now lobbies for American Airlines, and has represented United. Richard Ben-Veniste represents Boing and United Airlines. Maxy "Dollar Sign" Cleland, the former US Senator, has recieved over $300,000 from the airline industry - and he resigned from the commission. Lee Hamilton is on numerous advisory boards, such as CIA, the Bush Homeland Security Advisory Council, and the US Army. Tim Roemer represents Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Jamie Gorelick's firm HAS AGREED TO REPRESENT PRINCE MOHOMMED AL FAISAL IN THE SUIT BY THE 9/11 FAMILIES!!! Al Faisel is widely accepted as being connected to the financing for 9/11. 2) White House bullshit. Neither Bush nor Cheney had to take an oath before restifying, they JOINTLY testified, the testimony cannot be recorded or transcribed (and no one would be in the room while they gave testimony?). Afterwards, Cheney went on a duck hunting trip and accedentally shot the Constitution. He managed to hit several amendments, our nations dignity, and our international reputation. 3) Highly suspicous Pentagon info. For well voer 2 years following the attacks, officials from NORAD and the FAA provided inaccurate information about the response to the hijackings in testimony and media appearances. Authorities said that the US Air defences (if you can call them that) had reacted quickly! They were so fast that they flew right past the 747 that was about to hit the Pentagon. They even said that the jets had been scrambled in response to the hijackings and they were ready to shoot down flight 93 (the real Flight 93, not the one from the movie) if it threatened Washington D.C. Of course the commission found some tapes from NORAD and other evidence that the military never had any of the hijacked airliners in its sights and at one point chased a phantom aircraft -- American Airlines Flight 11 -- long after it had crashed into the World Trade Center. Yozwer!! Even though the commission really tried with the FAA and NORAD, basically all the information they got is suspect, and is generaly considered to be ridiculous and stupid (not just by me). 4) The budget of The Blair Witch Project. The Challenger disaster investigation got about $50,000,000. 7 people died. IT WAS REALLY SAD, of course, but 7 people died. The 9/11 Commission was promised $3,000,000 by King George the Dubbuyuh. The Commission had to ask for an additional $8,000,000. I have more, but let me know if these work for you. |
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09-10-2006, 04:01 PM | #5 (permalink) | |||||
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Why did the commission accept the demands of the POTUS and the VP to limit it's questioning of both of them to a joint, private appearance, before only a select few members of the entire commission, that was not conducted while they were sworn to tell the truth. Why did the commission not examine, in depth, and report on President Bush's two ridiculous statements about "watching the first plane, on TV", crashing into WTC1, <b>before</b> Bush went into an elementary school classroom, to sit for at least 22 minutes, including seven minutes <b>after</b> Andrew Card whispered to him. "on camera" that a second airliner had crashed into WTC2, at a bout 9:15 am. ? Both of Bush's statements about what he was doing and thinking, were lifted from and linked to whitehouse gov web pages. Cheney's statement, to Tim Russert, on Sept. 16, 2001, that <b>"The Secret Service has an arrangement with the F.A.A. They had open lines after the World Trade Center was..."</b>, lifted and linked from the whitehouse gov site, as well, makes a convincing case that Bush knew before he left his motorcade, to go into the Sarasota elementary school, that a large plane had crashed into WTC1, since it happened at 8:48 am, and that there were FAA reports received from Boston TRACON, as early as 8:20 am, that a possible airliner hijacking was being investigated. The 9/11 Commission left all of these contradictions, and a close examination of Bush and Cheney's behavior that morning, versus their public statements, and the contradictory statement of Mineta and the white house photographer, David Bohrer, and the testimony of Richard Clark as to the timeline of Cheney's arrival and actions in the PEOC, "open". Mineta's testimony was omitted from the final report, and Cheney's disclosure about what information chanel the secret service had access to...and when, contradicted what Bush did.....spend 20 plus minutes in a grade school classroom versus, what he said, and said that he thought and did. At the least, why was there no commission examination of what the secret service knew, before and during the time Bush was in that classroom, and until he left Sarasota on AF1, when the SS knew it, what it told Bush about the attack on the WTC and the airline hijackings, and when it found out, and when and what it told Bush. Why was Bush kept for more than 30 minutes, after the first airliner crash, in a school, surrounded by young students and their teachers? The commission should have examined and reported on what else Bush was told between 8:20 am and 9:50 am on 9/11, who told him, when they told him, and who told them, and when....before the told Bush, or a member of his entourage. Was there ever a time when you were curious about any of these things, these "gaps" in the commission's investigating, and in it's report, politicophile.....or are you incurious about Bush's peculiar statements, and his behavior at the school, during the attacks and shortly afterward? I have always been told, that in any criminal investigation, you "follow the money". What then, can we make of this, from the 9/11 commission report? Quote:
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so I'll ask you.....doesn't the last example, by itself, with icing on the cake of incredulity, provided by my other points and examples, defend the idea that some harbor, that the 9/11 commission's report was "a joke"? The terms that it granted in exchange for the right for some of it's members the privelege of a Q&A in a brief, joint appearance by Bush and Cheney, where no notes taken by the few commission members allowed to attend, could leave the room without white house approval, speaks in support of willravel's statement, as the "final report" itself, does, as well........ Last edited by host; 09-10-2006 at 06:24 PM.. |
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09-10-2006, 04:58 PM | #6 (permalink) | |||||
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I see errors, ommissions, and inappropriate conduct. I do not see conspiracy, Presidential criminality, or willful deception. How about you?
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The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty |
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09-10-2006, 05:40 PM | #7 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Also, what about the President and Vice President not being sworn to tell the truth? Doesn't that suggest willful deception (and thus Presdential criminality, and thus some sort of conspiracy)? |
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09-10-2006, 06:17 PM | #8 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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i have not devoted particular attention to this set of problems...i dunno why...but anyway, i have thought that the entire organization that carried out the trade center attacks was on the planes. nothing requires any bigger group be involved, does it? but this is purely because it makes sense logically to me...if the organization came into being to do the attacks or something like it--was made up of people who maybe hadn't carried out an action, say---there'd be no hope of stopping them because (unless somebody really fucked up) there'd be nothing in particular to look for.
whence the idea that the u.s. has been in a war on ghosts for 5 years. is this still a possibility, given what folk understand to have happened?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
09-10-2006, 06:58 PM | #9 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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Putting outrageous statements in others' mouths is an Ann Coulteresque strategy that is as ugly and thuggish as it is ineffective. I recommend you refrain. |
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09-10-2006, 07:18 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
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My Ann Coulter porn must be distracting me from the content of the thread, 'cause I thought I was squarely in the middle of "We-need-to-find-out-what Bush-actually-knew-on-9/11-and-when-he-knew-it" Land. Talk dirty to me, Ann!
__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty |
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09-10-2006, 07:59 PM | #11 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Politicophile, I posted facts. Host posted facts. Do you have any disagreement over the facts? Do you think the 9/11 Commission investigation was a joke? Or do you take their corrupt, limited, and vague findings as being all that's necessary? |
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09-10-2006, 08:08 PM | #12 (permalink) | |
Artist of Life
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You know, if they're going to lie they should at least get there stories strait.
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Last edited by Ch'i; 09-10-2006 at 08:21 PM.. |
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09-10-2006, 08:19 PM | #13 (permalink) |
Devils Cabana Boy
Location: Central Coast CA
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Seriously, cover ups don’t work, someone always talks, look at Watergate, there were very few people involved in that one, and you would need several hundred, if not thousands of people to orchestrate the 9/11 conspiracy, some one would have talked.
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Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen |
09-10-2006, 08:32 PM | #15 (permalink) |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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And if someone does speak out, unless they have actual proof (like video tape confessions), no one will listen to them and they will be thought to be just another conspiracy theorist.
I could be paid off for the right price. Make it look like I won the lottery for $10 million or so. And I would never talk about my involvement in that project again. But, they might have me located in WTC #7, and the dead don't talk. |
09-10-2006, 08:33 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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And seriously, I can name in 5 seconds 5 conspiracies that you may not be aware of and I can prove they exist (later). Ready? 1) The assasination of Julius Caesar. 2) The Dreyfus Affair. 3) Panama. 4) The Suez Crisis. 5) Iran Contra. You'll just have to trust that took 5 seconds, but those are REAL conspiracies, some of the remained covered up for generations. |
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09-10-2006, 09:09 PM | #17 (permalink) |
Conspiracy Realist
Location: The Event Horizon
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While questionable scenarios happened before, the public’s acceptance or general complacent mindset on the Warren Commission's conclusion set the trend for things to come.
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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking |
09-10-2006, 09:13 PM | #18 (permalink) | ||||||
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"probe", like the one 40 years ago, that is "too full of holes. It's sad, frustrating, and completely avoidable, IMO, that this had to happen, this time, too...or it's a criminal cover up and a conspiracy, on some level. Quote:
This time.....on 9/11....I was just 80 blocks away, and the first airliner flew just a few blocks west of where I was standing, 18 floors up, on WEA, near the Hudson River.....probably less than a minute before it plowed into WTC1. I sat and watched the TV coverage, over several days. I marveled at how contradictory and inaccurate the "live" and "near live", news reports of live victim recoveries, that I was watching on TV, turned out to be. I watched a telecast of a small group of injured firemen, being led into St. Vincent's hospital, after their reported "rescue" from a buried NYFD battalion commander's GMC suburban, where they were "discovered" and then dug out and rescued from the vehicle, buried under debris at ground zero....for two days. Hours later, the report was revised...the firemen in the video were rescuers who had fallen through a void in the ruins, and were pulled out to safety by fellow rescuers. Here, in the home of all of the HQ's and broadcast centers of the major US news media, they had the most advanced equipment and communications, a vast pool of reporters and support staff, and they couldn't get a story taking place on their doorstep, right the first time....it made me wonder, since then, how accurate any initial reports are from foreign correspondents or in any "war time" news coverage. In early november, 2001, I had an opportunity to move to an apartment located just 3 blocks from ground zero, with a close view of the site from the roof of the apartment building. I lived there for three months, and I wondered, on Christmas day, 2001, as I walked past the site, why they were still working 24 hours per day...even on Christmas, to remove the debris and recover the human remains at the site....the huge Weeks Marine crane dumping debris into the barges at the pier on the left side of this May, 2001 photo. WTC1 is in this photo, 3 blocks to the soutwest. Pier 25 is below the yellow brick building (Stuyvesant High School). I lived in the dark building, in the middle right of the photo, at the stern of the boat. From my living room window, I watched the WTC debris filled barges "tugged" away to Fresh Kills, Staten Island: <img src="http://www.wirednewyork.com/parks/battery_park/images/battery_park_woolworth_20may.jpg"> Quote:
I think that all of us, especially the students at Stuyvesant High who watched bodies falling from the towers, and then ran for their own lives, out of their school and through the debris clouds of the collapsing towers are owed an honest explanation. The evidence indicates strongly, that we haven't gotten one. Quote:
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The timeline, above, combined with this.....which indicates that the secret service knew everything that FAA knew, shortly after the 8:47 am impact on WTC1, Quote:
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09-10-2006, 09:21 PM | #19 (permalink) |
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Host: I just want to point out that the last few pieces of information (concerning technology) aren't necessarily contradictory. A few reports say that al-Qaeda is using advanced technology (a fact so banal that I'd be surprised if it weren't true). Another specifically mentions emails and encryption. Then another says that they left no paper trail, and didn't own laptops. This jives with another report you quote which says that they used public computers to communicate.
Where's the contradiction? |
09-10-2006, 10:49 PM | #20 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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In other words why get on the guys case when a vast conspiracy is EXACTLY what will thinks 9/11 was? He should refain from observing the obvious? Nice tie in will Ann Coulter though, that was very nicely done if a bit cliche as of late.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 09-10-2006 at 10:53 PM.. |
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09-10-2006, 11:07 PM | #21 (permalink) | |
Artist of Life
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I'm also glad you helped reinforce my point on how "conspiracy" is usually used now. If you replaced "conspiracy" every time its been used in this thread with "a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful" you're argument would mean something much different. Which is funny because that's what conspiracy means. Drop the conotation. UsTwo, I dare you to point out any "conspiracy" (the way you mean it) in this thread. Last edited by Ch'i; 09-10-2006 at 11:21 PM.. |
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09-10-2006, 11:54 PM | #22 (permalink) | |||||||
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Mueller could have said that the hijackers were known to use computers....but not their own....to access the internet and use email....but he didn't either time he made essentially the same statement, I'm pointing out curious contradictory statements by officials that cloud determinations, instead of clarifying them. I see Mueller's statements as an example. It is not as strong as the Bush, Cheney, and the Mineta testimony conflict and omission from the 9/11 Commission report....but it does confuse, and he communicated it twice.....as Bush did with his "waiting to go into the classroom....watching the first plane on TV...."schtick"....wierd. Quote:
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09-11-2006, 03:25 AM | #23 (permalink) | |
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09-11-2006, 03:44 AM | #24 (permalink) | |
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Much more could probably have been learned if not for the limited "unsworn" testimony of Bush/Chaney, the unwillingness to pursue contradictions in testimony between Condi Rice and others in the WH national security/counter terrorism office, and the Commission's limited subpoena power (a majority of members was required to issue a subpoena; several were blocked by Repub appointed members) . On the plus side, the Commission did make a series of strong and detailed recommendations for corrective action to prevent (or minimize the possiblity) of future attacks as well as actions needed for a more effective emergency response, which is were our attention should be focused. Unfortunately, the 9/11 Public Discourse Project (the successor to the 9/11 Commission) provided a report card in Dec. 2005 on how well the recommendations were being implemented by the White House and Congress: http://www.9-11pdp.org/press/2005-12-05_summary.pdf It is not a very impressive record, but then again, their attention and money has been diverted to Iraq
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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09-11-2006, 04:44 AM | #25 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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joke in the worst possible way So ch'i my boy, what does that mean to you? Edit:typed in 1 minute before leaving for work, it seems to imply that will is not a conspiracy theorist, which is of course false, he is. What intended was his idea that even if you are not a conspiracy theorist you should call the 9/11 commision report a joke.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 09-11-2006 at 05:57 AM.. |
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09-11-2006, 06:18 AM | #26 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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09-11-2006, 08:06 AM | #27 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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i want to explain my suspicion about this direction of thinking concerning the wtc attacks.
(suspicion in the sense of distance from...) personal aside: in the period immediately after 9/11/2001 i was focussed mostly on video loops and their role in structuring television coverage on the one hand and the emerging (simple-minded) narrative of cause/explanation on the other. i remember very clearly walking through the student union at penn that afternoon and watching students gathered around huge television screens watching the loop over and over, saucer eyed as the university's therapy teams wandered about like some bizarre psychological swat operation. it was surreal. since then, i have been primarily interested in the narrative constructed to provide some sense of closure---and the function of repetition (of the loops within the loops, if you like) within that--in other words, the ideological fallout of the trade center in particular. back to the matter at hand: i have not kept particular track of problems concerning the actions of the political class as human beings on 9/11/2001 itself. maybe because i did not follow the same logic as other folks: i do not expect the state to protect me and so did not make any particular linkage between 9/11/2001 and the actions of politicians--or to their ex post facto statements about their actions. it did not seem terribly germaine. the other reason is that i have assumed the scenario i asked about above--that the entire organization that planned the attacks was on the planes. if that is true, then it follows that there really is nothing that could have been done to stop any of it. further, if anything like that scenario was in fact the case, all of the subsequent "security" hysteria has been worthless in that no amount of it would enable the prevention of an attack--if that attack was mounted by a new group--or one constituted for a particular action. linking 9/11/2001 to already-extant groups seemed to me little more than a therapeutic exercise. whence the inane focus on bin laden. given my assumption about the attack (which was easy enough to generate--if you were going to undertake such an action, how would you do it? it's a pretty straightforward question, really---thinking about it is instructive...) much of the thinking i see other folk pursuing seems to me built around a teleological fallacy--one which is central to the dominant narrative--a fallacy that refigures the past in the image of the present (in this case an event) and attributes false significance to that past. this is why i haven't paid particular attention to the questions raised by the 9/11/2001 investigations: i cannot tell, and would not be able to tell, if by looking into this area i would find myself running in logical loops created by the teleological fallacy. i cannot--and would not--be able to tell whether my interpretation of particular actions or statements about action were being shaped by a prior assumption that these much be meaningful that has more to do with the logic i would import into the situation than with the situation. in a similar way, as one viewing the videoloops and interacting with students who lost friends and relatives at the wtc in the days that followed 9/11/2001, i do not understand myself as being wholly outside the effects of something on the order of a collective trauma. so i would also be unable to sort out my personal psychological investments that were being shaped by a teleological fallacy. in a similar way, i cannot work out in many of the posts above what is going on at this level. i do not doubt that others have asked questions on this order to themselves (maybe clearer versions of them, who knows)--so i wonder how they navigated them and what relation they see obtaining between these circuits of investment and what they find and why they find it in the actions of the bush people and subesequent statements about those actions. i am curious about how folk have managed this problem
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
09-11-2006, 08:28 AM | #28 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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09-11-2006, 08:43 AM | #29 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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bin laden et al are unnecessary logically to explain the attacks.
they could VERY easily have been organized by a small group no-one was looking for. and such an organization makes more sense. again, think about it: if you were going to organize an action on that scale, how would you do it? that bin laden et al would use the events to further their own political position is not a surprise. i see that as an attempt by al qeada to further its own political objectives. the problem this scenario raises really is that there was no way to prevent the 9/11/2001 attacks and there is no way to prevent another one. a state can only prevent actions from groups it is looking for. it cannot prevent anything undertaken by groups that it is not looking for.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
09-12-2006, 04:53 AM | #31 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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09-12-2006, 06:37 AM | #32 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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the message was the attack itself.
why do you think the wtc and pentagon were targets stevo? what possible meaning would there be? i dunno--seems pretty obvious to me.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
09-12-2006, 07:07 AM | #34 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Also, we still don't have the confirmed identities of the hijackers. Osama might have been meeting with the suspected hijackers, but we don't know for sure. Many of the men the CIA accouse of being the 9/11 hijackers are still alive. To me that makes the whole list quite suspect. |
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09-12-2006, 07:09 AM | #35 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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i am simply suspicious about the links between the attackers and al qeada.
it is not that i exclude the possibility--i just view claims about the link with a bit of suspicion. it seems to me that the attacks were a self-evidently symbolic act that required no further elaboration--the symbols of american economic and military hegemoy (plus a field in pennsylvania). it seems that bin laden et al moved symmetrically with the bush administration into the frame set by the narrative and that both have marketed the hell out of that. the curious thing is that none of the narrative has to be true for the narrative to operate effectively. it seems to me that the story floated to "explain" the attacks were almost entirely about enabling a response of some kind, no matter how incoherent, first and then became a device to advance the administration's policies and the administration itself. in the play "the man in the glass booth" the main character is a jewish guy who pretends to be eichmann and who is arrested as eichman and put on trial as eichman. in the context of his tesitmony, a question is asked concerning the appeal of fascism for "eichman" the response is: "he told us what it was that we were afraid of"
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
09-12-2006, 09:58 AM | #38 (permalink) | |
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A whimsical rebuttal NIST's response Popular Mechanics had this to say Point by point rebuttal of "Loose Change" I never imagined I would use as non-academic a source as Maddox in tilted politics, but sometimes you have no choice but to fight fire with fire. The entire 9/11 conspiracy movement is a case of people believing something is true because they desperately want it to be. Alas, George Bush, the simpleminded nationalistic cowboy (according to our friends on the left), would never conspire to kill 3,000 innocent Americans. Seriously, step back for a moment and think about the kind of people who work in the Bush administration. Do you SERIOUSLY think a bunch of good ol' boys from Texas would murder thousands of Americans? What kind of outlandish straw man are you substituting for our President? There comes a time when we must all wake up and smell the coffee. There is no 9/11 conspiracy. Period.
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The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty |
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09-12-2006, 10:14 AM | #39 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Pot, kettle, black. |
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09-12-2006, 10:19 AM | #40 (permalink) | |
Addict
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__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty |
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9 or 11, anniversary, discuss, leaders, morning, versions |
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