Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - 9/11 Fifth Anniversary: Discuss Our Leaders' Versions of What They Did That Morning

host · 09-10-2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i have not devoted particular attention to this set of problems...i dunno why...but anyway, i have thought that the entire organization that carried out the trade center attacks was on the planes.....

......is this still a possibility, given what folk understand to have happened?

Yes, of course it is "still possible"....but it is ridiculously unfair to the American people, and especially to the victims of 9/11 and their survivors, that president Bush, VP Cheney, other federal government officials and military officers, and the members of the 9/11 Commission, could not have, at the very least, learned the lesson of history well enough, to avoid what we can observe after only five years....on....is the legacy of their speech, actions, decisions, and determinations, not so much during the historic, watershed event, but...alarmingly....afterwards. Attribute it to ego or pride, at the least, that none of them resigned, if they could not make the tough decision to be frank with us, or, in the case of the 9/11 Commission members, or say....in the circumstances of Norman Mineta....resign...rather than be part of another
"probe", like the one 40 years ago, that is "too full of holes. It's sad, frustrating, and completely avoidable, IMO, that this had to happen, this time, too...or it's a criminal cover up and a conspiracy, on some level.

Quote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...le584668.shtml
40 Years Later: Who Killed JFK?
NEW YORK, Nov. 21, 2003(CBS) This story was written by CBSNews.com's Jarrett Murphy
Saturday is the 40th anniversary of the death of President Kennedy and the 40th birthday of the greatest whodunit in American history — the genesis of an unrelenting debate over the motive of the president's killer.

Or killers.

Indeed, the notion that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone in killing the president might be the ultimate "conspiracy theory" because it is one that most Americans believe. A 1998 CBS News poll found that only 10 percent of respondents felt Oswald acted alone. Seventy-four percent believed there was a cover-up. Recent polls suggest that this is still the way Americans feel.

Speculation over "what really happened" in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963 is a national institution. Hundreds of books, films, television specials and websites have sifted through the minutiae of assassination evidence, suspicion and intrigue. Words like "magic bullet" and "grassy knoll" are part of the vernacular. Theorists have fingered suspects from the Mafia to the Cubans to the CIA to Lyndon Johnson and the Federal Reserve.

According to longtime Clinton aide Webster Hubbell's memoir, President Clinton told his trusted ally and Justice Department appointee there were two things he wanted found out: whether there were UFOs, and who killed JFK. In the past year, U.S. newspapers have mentioned Oswald 760 times — more than twice as frequently as either Sirhan Sirhan or James Earl Ray, the men who murdered Sen. Robert Kennedy and Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., respectively.

As fascinating as the debate over who killed the president is another question: Why does the shooting 40 years ago still captivate?

James Fetzer, a professor of philosophy at the University of Minnesota (Duluth) who claims proof of a conspiracy, believes the killing of Mr. Kennedy still interests Americans — in part — because of the glamour and mystique projected by the president and first lady.

A more important reason, he said, is that the story told by the Warren Commission — the official government probe of the president's killing — was simply too full of holes.......

Maybe it's just me.....I was a 10 year old, sixth grader, sitting in music class, when the school principal announced the news over the school intercom, that Kennedy had been shot in Dallas. That weekend, our b & w TV was not working, and I missed the live telecast of Jack Ruby shooting Lee Oswald.

This time.....on 9/11....I was just 80 blocks away, and the first airliner flew just a few blocks west of where I was standing, 18 floors up, on WEA, near the Hudson River.....probably less than a minute before it plowed into WTC1.

I sat and watched the TV coverage, over several days. I marveled at how contradictory and inaccurate the "live" and "near live", news reports of live victim recoveries, that I was watching on TV, turned out to be. I watched a telecast of a small group of injured firemen, being led into St. Vincent's hospital, after their reported "rescue" from a buried NYFD battalion commander's GMC suburban, where they were "discovered" and then dug out and rescued from the vehicle, buried under debris at ground zero....for two days. Hours later, the report was revised...the firemen in the video were rescuers who had fallen through a void in the ruins, and were pulled out to safety by fellow rescuers.

Here, in the home of all of the HQ's and broadcast centers of the major US news media, they had the most advanced equipment and communications, a vast pool of reporters and support staff, and they couldn't get a story taking place on their doorstep, right the first time....it made me wonder, since then, how accurate any initial reports are from foreign correspondents or in any "war time" news coverage.

In early november, 2001, I had an opportunity to move to an apartment located just 3 blocks from ground zero, with a close view of the site from the roof of the apartment building. I lived there for three months, and I wondered, on Christmas day, 2001, as I walked past the site, why they were still working 24 hours per day...even on Christmas, to remove the debris and recover the human remains at the site....the huge Weeks Marine crane dumping debris into the barges at the pier on the left side of this May, 2001
photo. WTC1 is in this photo, 3 blocks to the soutwest.
Pier 25 is below the yellow brick building (Stuyvesant High School).

I lived in the dark building, in the middle right of the photo, at the stern of the boat. From my living room window, I watched the WTC debris filled barges "tugged" away to Fresh Kills, Staten Island:
<img src="http://www.wirednewyork.com/parks/battery_park/images/battery_park_woolworth_20may.jpg">

Quote:

http://www.stuypa.org/environment/stuyinpress.htm
.........From NY Times 13 September 2001:

A boy at Stuyvesant High School watched from a window of the school library as people fell or jumped to their deaths from the burning twin towers a few blocks south. A classmate standing next to him crossed himself every time a body catapulted into empty air. And the boy, who is Jewish, wished that he could do something, if only to make such symbolic gestures himself. �

Yesterday, parents across the country were struggling to help their children make sense of an act that was beyond the experience of most adults, let alone children. But the children most traumatized were probably those at schools like Public School 234 and Stuyvesant, just a few blocks north of the World Trade Center�.

..., the student at Stuyvesant who watched the bodies fall and wished he could cross himself, went to Central Park with friends yesterday to try to forget. "These children have images in their brains that are pretty intense," his mother, Atina, said. "You wonder, what are the consequences?"

In OCt., 2001, before I moved there, I heard an account of 9/11 morning at Stuyvesant High, from the father of a student. The father was the brother of my firend, who alerted me to the opportunity to sublet that apartment.
I think that all of us, especially the students at Stuyvesant High who watched bodies falling from the towers, and then ran for their own lives, out of their school and through the debris clouds of the collapsing towers are owed an honest explanation. The evidence indicates strongly, that we haven't gotten one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by politicophile

I imagine that they either correctly decided that the testimony by Mineta was not worth including in the report or they made an error and left out relevant information from the report. Hard to say, really. Do you have reason to believe that Minetas comments were important and should have been included?

An error on the commission's part, clearly. There is no good reason, from my perspective, why the President should have received this special treatment. I share your disapproval of this presidential exemption from any meaningful testimony, but remain unconvinced that it is a sign of a vast 9/11 conspiracy involving the President and members of the 9/11 commission, as you seem to be implying.

Another clear instance of the President failing to act as a responsible commander-in-chief. There is no justification for his slow reaction to the news. That said, what would have been the purpose of including this in the report? "This commission has decided that the President's reaction time was at least six minutes and thirty seconds slower than it should have been. Had he reacted faster, the terrorist attacks would not have been affected in any way. But damn, seven minutes is a long time." Sure, they could have noted the President's improper hesitation, but I fail to see how this is relevant to an investigation of the attacks themselves.

The President was informed that there had been a severe plane crash. His chosen response was to continue with his day as planned. What do you think would have been a more appropriate reaction? Should he have immediately dropped everything to hold a press conference about an isolated plane crash? My sources say no.

As I said above, there were mistakes made both by the commission and by the President himself. This is extremely evident to anyone who has studied the facts. What I do not see from this mistakes, however, is a pattern that leads me to believe there was a coverup undertaken that the commission was careful not to disturb.

I see errors, ommissions, and inappropriate conduct. I do not see conspiracy, Presidential criminality, or willful deception. How about you?

I see at the least, willful deception.....why did the president go into the elemenrary school....?

Quote:

http://www.911timeline.net/
.......15) 8:20 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 77 a Boeing 757-223 with a maximum capacity of 200 passengers and 11,489 gallons of fuel, lifts off from Dulles International Airport about 30 miles west of Washington D.C. and the Pentagon, bound for Los Angeles International Airport in Los Angeles, California. Take-off was scheduled for 8:01. There are supposed to be 64 victims on board, yet when you add up the official death manifest list that was published on CNN.com, there are only 56 victims.

16) 8:21 a.m.: Betty Ong, a flight attendant on American Airlines Flight 11, calls Vanessa Minter at American Airlines reservations from the seatback phone. "She said two flight attendants had been stabbed, one was on oxygen," said the manager on duty. "A passenger had his throat slashed and looked dead and they had gotten into the cockpit." She identifies the seats of the hijackers and confirms that the plane is descending.

17) 8:22 a.m.: Amy Sweeney another flight attendant on American Airlines Flight 11, calls American Airlines ground manager Michael Woodward and speaks calmly to him until the plane crashes.

18) 8:24:38 a.m.: The pilot of American Airlines Flight 11, John Ogonowski, or one of the hijackers activates the talk-back button, enabling Boston air traffic controllers to hear a hijacker say to the passengers: "We have some planes. Just stay quiet and you will be OK. We are returning to the airport. Nobody move." Apparently, one of the hijackers confused the aircraft's radio with its public-address system. Air traffic control responds, "Who's trying to call me?"

19) 8:24:57 a.m. from American Airlines Flight 11, "Everything will be OK. If you try to make any moves, you'll endanger yourself and the airplane. Just stay quiet."

20) 8:25 a.m.: Boston air traffic control notified several air traffic control centers that a hijack is in progress with American Airlines Flight 11. Boston air traffic control first lost communication with American Airlines Flight 11 more than 11 minutes ago. What took them so long to start to implement procedure? Why didn’t they also notify North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) at this time? ........

.....21) 8:26 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 11 is heading westnorthwest, its location is between Albany and Lake George, New York, when it suddenly makes a 100 degree turn to the south and starts heading directly toward New York City. American Airlines Flight 11 finds the Hudson River and follows it all the way south till it impacts the north side of the North Tower of the WTC.

Almost 40 miles north of the WTC on the Hudson River is by far the number one terrorist target in the United States, Indian Point and its 3 nuclear power stations, 2 of which are online. These 3 nuclear stations have accumulated 65 years worth of stockpiled highly radioactive waste. Indian Point is only 24 miles north of the New York City border. It is surrounded by the densest concentration of population in the United States, the northeast corridor. Why did American Airlines Flight 11 fly directly over the number one terrorist target in the United States, Indian Point nuclear power stations, and not hit it? (See 8:39 a.m. # 28)

22) 8:32 a.m.: Bush’s motorcade leaves The Colony Beach and Tennis Resort on Longboat Key, Florida for Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota.

23) 8:33:59 a.m.: Another transmission from American Airlines Flight 11, "Nobody move please. We are going back to the airport. Don't try to make any stupid moves."

24) 8:36 a.m.: Flight attendant Betty Ong on American Airlines Flight 11 reports that the plane tilts all the way on one side and then becomes horizontal again. Flight attendant Amy Sweeney also reports on her phone that the plane has begun a rapid descent.

25) 8:36 a.m.: A NORAD spokesman, Major Mike Snyder, has been reported to have said, that the FAA notified NORAD of a hijacked aircraft, American Airlines Flight 11, about 10 minutes before it impacted into the World Trade Center.

http://www.attackonamerica.net/didhi...airdefense.htm

26) 8:37 a.m.: Flight controllers ask the United Airlines Flight 175 pilots to look for the lost American Airlines Flight 11, about 10 miles to the south. They respond that they can see it. They are told to keep away from it. This incident is not included in The New York Times flight controller transcript. Why?

27) 8:38 a.m.: Boston air traffic center notifies NORAD that American Airlines Flight 11 has been hijacked.

28) 8:39 a.m. American Airlines Flight 11 flies directly over the number one terrorist target in the United States, Indian Point nuclear power stations. Indian Point has 3 nuclear power stations (1 is offline and the other 2 have been online since 1973 and 1976), which are only 24 miles north of New York City. .........

........29) 8:40 a.m. Nasty and Duff are the code names of the two F-15 pilots from the 102nd Fighter Wing of the Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts who would scramble after United Airlines Flight 175. Nasty says that at this time, a colleague tells him that a flight out of Boston has been hijacked, and to be on alert. They put on their flight gear and get ready.

30) 8:40 a.m.: The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) notifies NORAD that American Airlines Flight 11 has been hijacked. Even NORAD officially admitted that the FAA told them about the hijacking of American Airlines Flight 11 at 8:40.

NORAD Press Release: http://StandDown.net/NORADSeptember1...essRelease.htm

AP Article On NORAD PR: http://www.AttackOnAmerica.net/8MinutesAway.htm

31) 8:41:32 a.m.: United Airlines Flight 175 last communication with the New York air traffic control: We figured we'd wait to go to your center. We heard a suspicious transmission on our departure from BOS [Boston] sounds like someone keyed the mike and said everyone stay in your seats.

32) 8:42 a.m.: United Airlines Flight 93 a Boeing 757-222 with a maximum capacity of 200 passengers and 11,489 gallons of fuel, lifts off from Newark International Airport in Newark, New Jersey bound for San Francisco International Airport, San Francisco, California. Take-off was scheduled for 8:01. There are supposed to be 44 victims on board, yet when you add up the official death manifest list that was published on CNN.com, there are only 33 victims.

33) 8:42 a.m.: An air traffic controller says of United Airlines Flight 175, looks like he's heading southbound but there's no transponder no nothing and no one's talking to him.

34) 8:43 a.m.: The FAA notifies NORAD that United Airlines Flight 175 has been hijacked. NORAD has officially admitted that the FAA told them about the hijacking of United Airlines Flight 175 at 8:43.

35) 8:44 a.m.: Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, talking about terrorism at the Pentagon says, "Let me tell you, I’ve been around the block a few times. There will be another event."He then repeats it for emphasis, there will be another event."

36) 8:46 a.m.: NORAD orders the 102nd Fighter Wing of the Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts to scramble two of their F-15 fighters. This is from the 102nd Fighter Wing's mission statement of September 11, 2001. "Our aircraft and their crews are on continuous 24-hour, 365-day alert to guard our skies. The 102nd Fighter Wing's area of responsibility includes over 500,000 square miles, 90 million people, and the major industrial centers of Boston, New York, Philadelphia, and Washington, D.C."

NORAD, by their own account, held on to this most vital information of these two hijacking for at least 6 minutes before ordering Otis to scramble. NORAD may have held on to the vital information of American Airlines Flight 11 for perhaps 8 minutes, maybe 10 minutes (see 8:36 a.m. # 25 statement by NORAD spokesman, Major Mike Snyder), possibly up to 26 minutes (see 8:20 a.m. # 14 American Airlines Flight 11 transponder signal stopped transmitting its IFF beacon signal) and let us not forget that the last transmission of American Airlines Flight 11 with Boston air traffic control occurred at 8:13:31, so maybe NORAD had over 32 minutes before they notified Otis to scramble their two F-15’s.

How could NORAD possibly hold on to the 8:40 information of the American Airlines Flight 11 hijacking, and not immediately scrambled Otis? How could NORAD possibly hold on to the 8:43 information of the United Airlines Flight 175 hijacking, and not have immediately scrambled Otis? How could NORAD, by their own account, hold on to the most vital information of both of these hijackings for three and six full minutes before notifying Otis to scramble?

NORAD Press Release: http://StandDown.net/NORADSeptember1...essRelease.htm

AP Article On NORAD PR: http://www.AttackOnAmerica.net/8MinutesAway.htm

Two New York Times articles apologetically describing this:

Pentagon Tracked Deadly Jet But Found No Way to Stop It
http://www.attackonamerica.net/penta...deadlyjet.html

Chronology of Plane Crashes: Orders, at the Time of Impact
http://www.attackonamerica.net/order...eofimpact.html

37) 8:46:26 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 11 impacts the north side of the North Tower (1 World Trade Center) of the WTC between the 94th and 98th floors. American Airlines Flight 11 was flying at a speed of 490 miles per hour (MPH). .......

.......38) 8:46 a.m.: United Airlines Flight 175 transponder signal stops transmitting IFF beacon signal.

39) 8:47 a.m.: NORAD informed of American Airlines Flight 11 striking the World Trade Center.

40) 8:47 a.m.: NYC Fire Battalion Chief Joe Pfeiffer from the 7th Battalion puts out an emergency call stating that American Airlines Flight 11 impacting the north side of the North Tower (1 World Trade Center) was no accident. The plane's impact was clearly a deliberate attack an intentional act of mass death and devastation.

As the small video crew (who shot the only video of American Airlines Flight 11 impacting the WTC – the fireman video) and firemen that had eye-witnessed the first plane hit the WTC were racing to the location, Chief Pfeiffer sounded red alerts over the radio and phone; specifically stating that what they witnessed was a "direct attack" and that the airliner was clearly being directed straight at the WTC and the incident was definitely not any kind of accident.

41) 8:48 a.m.: The first news reports appear on TV and radio that a plane may have crashed into the WTC.

42) 8:49 a.m.: United Airlines Flight 175 now deviates from its assigned flight path.

43) 8:50 a.m.: Rich Miles, a manager of United Airlines Chicago system operations center, receives a call from a mechanic at an airline maintenance center in San Francisco that takes in-flight calls from flight attendants about broken items. The mechanic says a female flight attendant from United Airlines Flight 175 just called and said, "Oh my God. The crew has been killed; a flight attendant has been stabbed. We've been hijacked." Then the line went dead.

44) 8:50:51 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 77 last radio communication, about 285 miles west of the Pentagon.

45) 8:51 a.m.: Bush arrives at Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida for a photo op with 16 second graders. He is there to promote his administration's new bill on education.

46) 8:52 a.m.: Two F-15 Eagles have scrambled and are airborne from the 102nd Fighter Wing of Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts. An F-15 has a top speed of 1875+ MPH. According to NORAD, Otis is 153 miles eastnortheast of the WTC.

47) 8:53 a.m.: A flight controller says to other airplanes in the sky about United Airlines Flight 175, "We may have a hijack. We have some problems over here right now."..........

........49) 8:56 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 77 transponder signal stops.

50) 8:56 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 77 goes off course and starts making a 180 degree turn over southern Ohio / northeastern Kentucky.

51) 8:57 a.m. The FAA formally notified the military that American Airlines Flight 11 crashed into the WTC. Until then, the two F-15’s fighters from Otis did not know the plane had crashed -- Yet at 8:47 a.m. NORAD had been notified. Why does it take over 10 minutes to inform the two F-15’s of this, especially when United Airlines Flight 175 is headed directly for New York City?

52) 8:59 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 77 completes its 180 degree turn over southern Ohio / northeastern Kentucky and starts heading directly back to Washington D.C. and The Pentagon, 330 miles away.

53) 9:00 a.m.: United Airlines systems operations transmitted a system wide message, warning its pilots of a potential "cockpit intrusion". United Airlines Flight 93, flying over Pennsylvania replies "Confirmed".

54) 9:00 a.m.: Last radar reading on United Airlines Flight 175 is observed at an altitude of 18,000 feet, descending, with a ground speed of 480 knots.

55) 9:00 a.m. The FAA starts contacting all airliners to warn them of the hijacking.

56) 9:00 a.m.: The Pentagon moves its alert status up one notch from normal to Alpha. It stays on Alpha until after American Airlines Flight 77 hits the Pentagon.

57) 9:01 a.m.: Bush later makes the following statement. "And I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on, and I used to fly myself, and I said, 'There's one terrible pilot.' And I said, 'It must have been a horrible accident.' But I was whisked off from there -- I didn't have much time to think about it." Bush could not have possibly seen the first plane (American Airlines Flight 11) hit the WTC, because the only video showing this was not shown on television till later in the day. So how could he have possibly seen and said this?

58) 9:02:54 a.m.: United Airlines Flight 175 impacts the south side of the South Tower of the WTC between the 78th and 84th floors at a speed of over 500 MPH. Parts of the plane including an engine leave the building from its north side, to be found on the ground up to six blocks away. .............

.........59) 9:03 a.m.: Boston air traffic control center halts traffic from its airports to all New York area airspace.

60) 9:05 a.m.: Andrew Card walks up to Bush while he is listening to a Goat Story with 16 second graders in Sandra Kay Daniels’s class at Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida. Card whispers in his ear "A second plane has hit the World Trade Center. America is under attack." Bush (commander-and-chief?) keeps listening to this Goat Story with these children for at least 7 minutes, and perhaps as long as 18 minutes. Why didn't he excuse himself from these children right away, and immediately address this national emergency, is totally unexplainable.

There is no way this should have happened. What of course should have happened, was as soon as the secret service found out about United Airlines Flight 175 impacting the WTC (now knowing it was a "terrorist" act), they would have immediatly grabbed Bush and brought him to an undisclosed location. There is no way the secret service leaves Bush in a place (Emma E. Booker Elementary School) where everyone knows he is. Stand Down...........

.........73) 9:23 a.m.: Bush talks privately with Cheney, his National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller and Governor George Pataki of New York. Why does Bush wait from 9:05 (when Andrew Card tells him of United Airlines Flight 175 hitting the WTC) till 9:23 to finally call? He still does not give the authority to the fighters to shoot down any hostile airliners. What is he waiting for?.........

.........83) 9:30 a m.: Bush, speaking to the nation from Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida, says the country has suffered an "apparent terrorist attack" and "a national tragedy." He would chase down, "those folks who committed this act." Bush also said, "Terrorism against our nation will not stand." It was an echo of "This will not stand," the words his father, George H. W. Bush, had used a few days after Iraq invaded Kuwait in August 1990-in Bush's opinion, one of his father's finest moments.

Also, during this address to the country Bush promised a full investigation into the attack. Well here we are one year later and there is still no investigation. Matter of fact he has done everything in his power so there will not be any investigation into 911. Why?

This address to the country should have been said at least 15 to 20 minutes earlier. But of course he had much more important business to attend to, he was listening to the Goat Story with the 16 second graders from 9:05 till at least 9:12 and possibly as long as 9:23. Watch the video of Bush addressing the country from Emma E. Booker Elementary School.

http://www.AttackOnAmerica.net/BushA...okerSchool.mov .........

politicophile, I am vunerable to the criticism that I "have too much invested in this, to be objective"....whatever that means in this "study" of what went down, vs. what they've told us.

The timeline, above, combined with this.....which indicates that the secret service knew everything that FAA knew, shortly after the 8:47 am impact on WTC1,

Quote:

......MR. RUSSERT: The plane actually circled the White House?

VICE PRES. CHENEY: Didn't circle it, but was headed on a track into it. The Secret Service has an arrangement with the F.A.A. They had open lines after the World Trade Center was..........

.....and certainly....by the time Andrew Card whispered in Bush's ear at 9:05 in the classroom.....and the knowledge that Bush was the sole authority on whether to issue a "shoot down" order to interceptor fighter pilots of other flights that FAA couldn't account for....at 9:05....after news of 2 airliner strikes on the WTC.....Bush's still "unclarified" explanation....twice repeated and still displayed on the White House website.....persuades me that your assessment, is not arrived at after a full accounting, and weighing, of the record of that morning....coupled with Bush's later....odd comments about watching it at the school, on TV.....before.... he went into the classroom.