Mobo123

This is from an australian newspaper, of all places. The biggest and largest newspaper in australia. I doubt there is much bias one way or another there. Way too far removed physically although diiishguy is in aussie land.

This is what the world DOESNT see.

Youre going to have to open the article to see the photos of the hezbollah dressed as civilians, firing their rockets from civilian homes. Geez, isnt that courageous. Talk about cowards and scumbags.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...007220,00.html

Anti-aircraft gun: these pictures were taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend.

THIS is the picture that damns Hezbollah. It is one of several, smuggled from behind Lebanon's battle lines, showing that Hezbollah is waging war amid suburbia.

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.

The photographs, from the Christian area of Wadi Chahrour in the east of Beirut, were taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend.

They emerged as:

US President George Bush called for an international force to be sent to Lebanon.

ISRAEL called up another 30,000 reserve troops.

THE UN's humanitarian chief Jan Egeland called for a three-day truce to evacuate civilians and transport food and water into cut-off areas.

US SECRETARY of State Condoleezza Rice returned to the Middle East to push a UN resolution aimed at ending the 18-day war, and:

A PALESTINIAN militant group said it had kidnapped, killed and burned an Israeli settler in the West Bank.

The images include one of a group of men and youths preparing to fire an anti-aircraft gun metres from an apartment block with sheets hanging out on a balcony to dry.

Others show a militant with AK47 rifle guarding no-go zones after Israeli blitzes.

Another depicts the remnants of a Hezbollah Katyusha rocket in the middle of a residential block blown up in an Israeli air attack.

The Melbourne man who smuggled the shots out of Beirut and did not wish to be named said he was less than 400m from the block when it was obliterated.

"Hezbollah came in to launch their rockets, then within minutes the area was blasted by Israeli jets," he said.

"Until the Hezbollah fighters arrived, it had not been touched by the Israelis. Then it was totally devastated.

"It was carnage. Two innocent people died in that incident, but it was so lucky it was not more."

The release of the images comes as Hezbollah faces criticism for allegedly using innocent civilians as "human shields".

Mr Egeland blasted Hezbollah as "cowards" for operating among civilians.

"When I was in Lebanon, in the Hezbollah heartland, I said Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending in among women and children," he said.
The pictures that damn Hezbollah A militant watches over a no-go zone The pictures that damn Hezbollah
previous image Image 1 of 3next image

Suburban warfare: Hezbollah fighters are ready for action in a residential area.

On guard: A militant watches over a no-go zone.

aberkok

There is little doubt in my mind that Hezbollah are a bunch of murderous fools.

Having said that, I question the source of these photos. "taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend"??? Who? I'm pretty sure I could fabricate shots like that myself with a few toy guns and some buddies.

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hiredgun

In Lebanon, it is common knowledge that Hizbullah operates in this way.

In you ask Hizbullah, they will justify it based on utility. They fire from in and around houses and built-up areas, usually the same areas in which the rockets and launching equipment are hidden for easy access. Would you expect them to drive a Jeep out to the middle of a field first and become open targets for air strikes? As for uniforms, Hizbullah's formal militia are sometimes seen in uniform but they do not have very many and do not use them in guerrilla warfare as a general rule. Militaries generally fight in ways that play to their strengths.

I agree that their conduct is reprehensible for what it knowingly brings upon innocent Lebanese.

Daniel_

Fact: A few hundred (or at most a few thousand) millitia members are living within a population of a million or more in southern Lebanon.

Fact: those people have a major idealogical problem with the existence of Israel

Fact: Israel is a well armed very rich power

The result is that the members of the millitia use "terrorist" methods (I use quotes because I don't think they are totally terrorists - I think they are a guerilla force, but the distinction is paperthin and I am comfortable using either designation) to strike any blows at Israel that they think they can.

That said, the photos do not show them launching cowardly attacks on Israel from civillian areas - they show them displaying their weapons in a civilian area.

Let me be clear - I think that both sides in this conflict have behaved abominably, and I don't think it is possible for anyone to say with clarrity who started this round of hostilities; Hezbollah launched rocket attacks on Israel, but they claim they were provoked by Israelli action in the south.

In truth the conflict goes back to the way Britain allowed the Pallestinian protectorate to collapse aftr the war, if not way beyond that to the period between the wars when Britain became de facto rulers in the area, and used "devide and rule" actics to establish feuds that are still in place all over the world. Until the Brits came many situations we view as permanent ethnic feuds all over the world were non-existant.

Either way, the end of the issue will probably be that the Israellis will bomb south lebanon until there's hardly anyone alive - and just be setting up the next genaration of conflict.

I wish there was a simple answer but both sides feel they have a total right to behave the way they are because of the way the other side have treated them.

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host

Mobo123, I think that you've missed the prime reason why our Mr. Cheney only watches foxnews, and only allows foxnews...and no other network, to "interview" him...... HWT, the newspaper that you're citing, offers scant sourcing for the authenticity of the photos that it published. Round the world, the following illuminates the breadth and reach of Mr. Murdoch's politics, and the remarkable similarity between Mr. Murdoch's agenda, and that of Bush/Cheney:
We have no way to confirm now, one way or the other, the truthfulness of the OP HWT article that you post, Mobo123. We do know, though, that less than two years ago, HWT was determined by <b>self-regulation media watchdog, the Australian Press Council (APC)</b> to have helped Australian PM and Bush ally in the GWOT, John Howard, smear the Greens party, on cue, as described above, via "irresponsible journalism" full of "false claims".

Charlatan

As despicable as Hizzbollah is (and make no mistake, I am not defending them) their strategy is sound.

Faced by a stronger force... why wouldn't you use these tactics? Especially when it results in bad PR for Israel when they bomb the civilan area from which you just fired.

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Mephisto2

What Charlatan said.

I hate the the pretentious airs of self-righteous surprise I hear from so many people on this topic.

May I ask you American readers to cast your eye inwards and backwards to your own history, when your own country was born from "freedom fighters" (what Bush and Cheney would today call terrorists), fighting from within the civilian population against a large, powerful, foreign and very rich "invading" power.

I'm no apologist for Hezbollah, but I can't stand self-righteous hypocrisy. And, to be blatantly honest, US foreign policy and much of its public opinion currently reeks of it.


Mr Mephisto

Seaver

Name a battle where our soldiers hid fought within civilian populations.

You don't. We fought on battlefields, at worst on the outskirts of civilian sectors.

frogza

The plans were hatched from houses, the spies that gathered intelligence did so from towns and cities. The shots that the colonials fired were from forests and fields not from behind a wall of women and children.

To sum up the american revolution by comparing it to tactics used by Hezbollah is only an excersise of ignorance. It's very easy and indeed common to throw a label (such as self-righteous hypocrisy) on that which you do not understand.

flstf

Some recent cartoon commentary.

djtestudo

Exactly.

Many of the soldiers were "civilians", in the sense that they were temporary militia, but they never fought in a city.

The only time this could even be close to right is when towns were placed under seige (i.e. the Americans trapped in Charleston or the British in Yorktown), but that was an effort to protect important places as opposed to using civilian shields.

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roachboy

the photos are a joke.

i find it amazing that folk actually swallow the rationale being floated through the pr machinery to rationalize the massacre of civilians.

it is not that hezbollah--being a milita--that is not being organized on nation-state lines--does not present problems as a "legitimate target"--because its boundaries do blur into its social environment--but this is not equivalent to the ludicrous "uses human shields" claim--which is alot like the iraqi military breaking into the kuwati hospital and killing babies during gulfwar 1--you know, the kind of image that functions to sell war--the kind of fake image used to sell war.

in this case, you are being sold "collateral damage"--like the 37 children killed on the weekend by an israeli bomb at qana.

you are also being sold the fiasco that is the bush administration's actions relative to the massacre in lebanon-a total fiasco that is beginning to register even with republicans.

wake up folks. the pictures are a joke (look at nos. 1 and 3 carefully....they are the same shot---what exactly is demonstrated by these photos--could you not make the same argument if you used pix of a military parade through some suburb against the american and israeli armies, were you so inclined?)

war is pr.

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reconmike

Nice satire cartoons Flstf, but since they were not published in that highly respected, ALWAYS reliable (see reporter Blair) New York Times maxi pad,
they could not have any meaning or truth.
Same goes for these photo of some middle easteren posers with their toy guns and even their plastic yack-yack gun. Im impressed Mattel even makes toy guns that big.

If hezzzballah hides behind civilians, civilians will die. If said civilians do not want to die either turn in these "freedom-fighters" or get the hell away from them.

Im off to search the NYT for anything remotely connected to this story, if I cant find it in the paper, no loss my bird's cage needs new paper and man does he love the NYT.

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Ustwo

Ok this pissed me off enough to post in the paranoia board.

Go show me where the revolutionary fighters in the US tried to hide in civilian areas to increase civilian deaths or used their own children as suicide bombs. Horrible things can happen in war, but such actions were NEVER the policy of the US forces. You will note the battles were fought almost entirely in the fields, NOT in the cities.

You are an apologist for Hezbollah, you are condemning the US here, not Hezbollah, you are saying they are the same as the US revolutionaries. I can't stand such awful, self-righteous and off base moral equivalence where there is no such equivalence.

Whats worse is that by your twisted logic, we would not be able to take sides or pass moral judgement on something like slavery today since slavery was allowed in the United States 135 years ago.

If you had a point besides 'The US is like Hezbollah' I missed it entirely and if that was in fact your point you know where you can put it.

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roachboy

gee whiz, folks, such snippiness about the wholly mythologized history of the american revolution...such inability to countenance the possibility that not everything that happened then was wholly ethical....but i suppose it's easy to separate the revolution proper from what was happening across the period on the "frontier"--but hey, who really cares about that kind of thing anyway? what matters is that the mythology stay intact.

you might read crevecoeur's letters from an american famer, particularly the last one, to get a more nuanced understanding of what happened during the revolution, how vertiginous it was for folk at the time, etc etc etc. bad things undoubtedly happened. the Heroic Nationalist Mythos required that they be erased.

but hey, why wonder about complex real-time situations do when knee-jerk reactions in defense of some santized mythology are so much fun?

following from this snippiness, there appears to be some kind of argument that the americans occupy a kind of moral high ground that would enable them to pass judgements on the public-relations construction of hezbollah--well, folks, we dont. not in a context shaped by the bush administration's decision to allow an ongoing massacre of civilians in lebanon via its delusional pronouncements concerning a "new middle east"--one that would apparently be simpler for the simple folk in power to interact with. not in a context shaped by the debacle in iraq and the debacle in afghanistan---a rehearsal of american follies and their impact on the lives of other people seems superfluous, really, because in this thread what is at issue is mythology and not history, and the affection people hold for certain mythologies.

these demonstrations of affection for mythologies of american righteousness are tedious beyond measure. they say nothing about the past, nothing about the present, nothing about the future. they help nothing. they do nothing. they are kinda creepy to read through. but soon enough that too becomes tedious as the type of creepiness seems standardized....

nothing left to be said here. have a nice thread.

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host

ustwo, what used to happen on these threads, when...as I so often try to do;
I "saw off" the branch (in this case, a Murdoch "psy-op piece" intended to glorify the IDF and to demonize hezbollah.....) that reinforces the flames of the "viewpoint" that News Corp's HWT.au attempted to fan into an inferno......

....what used to happen.....even from you.....was that, once the reliability of the OP "story" was called into question, you would <b>stand DOWN.</b>....at least until you could come up with a reliable basis for your indignation.

Your indignation should be directed at the real consideration of the possibility that you don't....and cannot...."know what you know". If Ruppert Murdoch really does control the decisions of 175 newpapers' editors, as to what they filter, embellish, and then "present to you", as "news", and you add in the influence of foxnews, here in the U.S., to the "mix", how do you justify anything that you've posted, or that anyone else here has posted, in reaction to the content of the HWT "report", in this thread OP?

Your indignation should be directed at Paul O'Neill's account, verified by Ron Suskind's interviewees who were also present at the Jan. 20, 2001 NS meeting, that Bush said:

Consider why hezbollah tactics are what they are....fighting in towns:
Would HWT, or foxnews, describe the story below as an officer of General Washington's army, using a civilian girl as a "human shield"?

Seaver

It's not mythology. You can visit where the battles were taken place. You can even dig up the old bullets and rifles if you stay long enough. Show me where our fighters hid within and only fought within cities.

They didn't. That's not mythology, that's reality. Very few battles took place within a town or city, and if they did it was A) on the outskirts, or B) a city which was abandoned used only as impromptu fortifications.

Our war was not won by forcing the British to kill our civilians, that is the ONLY way Hezbolla expects to win. To call the two the same are as logically correct as calling a plane and a turtle equal.

Willravel

I'm going to have to coin a new term. Every time Israel is mentioned, and someone takes the devil's advocate position....they are labeled a terrorist apologist. Let's call it 'The Law of eventual terrorist apologism'.

Ustwo, if group A uses the same basic military tactics as group B, do group A and group B have interchangable moral standpoints? The answer obviously being no, it's clear that Mephisto was only comparing military tactics, and not general morality or reasoning. To compare Hezbollah to the early Americans in a discussion on morals is absurd, but to compare their military tactics is perfectly reasonable (as was illustrated by his post). Instead of seeing this as a simple comparison, you viewed it as him taking a dump on the American revolutionaries.

The point is that methods will come and go, but it's the idiologies and morality that should decide histories view of a group. Deciding to condemn purely on method is a bit niave.

American revolutionaries did sleep, rest, refuel, and rearm in towns, making them prime targetrs for attack from the red coats. Despite what you might see in Mel Gibson movies, not all battles were fought in lines on an open field.

Elphaba

I can't vouch for the video below, but it is surfacing on the internet. My guess is that it is from an Israeli drone looking for missile launches in Qana. Perhaps someone here will be able to assess it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FHpkl9AJY...page=1&t=t&f=b


Edit: Correction, it's video from a combat jet.

ktspktsp

Erm... They're a MILITIA. They won't line up in the middle of an empty field to be fired upon by aircraft.

Anyway, war is about using the most favorable tactics for winning. Not about being honorable. That goes for all sides. There isn't any more decency by killing people from F-16s , rifles or Katyushas.

Oh and Mobo, regarding your thread title, I could think of a few pictures that damn Israel too.

Seaver

So Israel can nuke them? That thinking doesn't hold up.

Mephisto2

You misunderstand what I said.

First of all, I never said that US revolutionaries used civilians as "human shields".

The comment about "self-righteous hypocrisy" meant that I'm sure, were your lands to be invaded, that you would fight from where-ever necessary, and that you would probably fight in your civilian clothes.

It seems I touched an open nerve.


Mr Mephisto

Whoa... slow down there Tiger.

LOL

I never said that.


I said that, based on today's standards, US Revolutionaries could be, would be, labeled terrorists.

I also said I hate pretentious self-righteous hypocrisy about the shock (the SHOCK!) that Hezbollah would fight the Israelis where and when they could.

Pretentious because some people pretend to be shocked. Everyone knows this happens, so why act all surprised.

Self-righteous because I don't believe people in safe homes, with comfy sofas and large TVs really know what it's like to have to endure the oppression the Palestinian people endure (for example), or what it's like to live with the threat of Katushya rockets raining down in hour neightbourhood. Spend a day in a man's shoes before you condemn him.

Hypocrisy because I believe anyone (or most people) would also defend their country against an invader as much as possible. After all, isn't this the reason you American's hold on so tightly to your right to bear arms? Specifically to ensure you can defend your homes against invaders? :-/


I never said they were. For starters, the majority of people in those days were agrarian, so by simple mathematical probability, the battles would have been fought in the countryside. But that's beside the point, as I didn't say otherwise.

No I am not.

No I am not. I am regailing against those who automatically act as if they would never revert to "dirty tactics" when defending their homes and families. And those who act so surprised that this could happen. Of course it could and does happen.

My record in condemning terrorists on this board stands for itself. I've lived with terrorism for years mate. Somehow I don't think you have.

No I am not. Reread what I posted. I simply asked that Americans "cast their eye inward and backward" and that US Revolutionaries would probably be labeled terrorists today. It's quite clear.

Ermm... righty-oh. Then we both agree. Good job I didn't say what you think I said.

Well, you know that's the first good point you make. This brings up an excellent issue. And you know, you're right. I guess we can't compare different times and places as identical. There are no absolutes. Everything is relative and contextual drivers influence the rights and wrongs of every situation.

Hang on a minute... That's actually my point!

Thanks Ustwo for validating my position.


I didn't have that point. And I'm pleased that in your last sentence you admit that you may not be correct in your knee-jerk over reaction to something I didn't actually say.


Mr Mephisto

Lebell

*sigh*

Here we go again.

Most of you have very good points, but the "black is white, white is black" crowd really does ruin it for me as well.

Have a nice thread.

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host

Note that, in Israel, some Israelis are willing to openly question whether Israel has gone "too far", and contrast that with some of the views on our Politics threads....views that do not make allowances for the idea that it is reasonable and appropriate for non-Israelis to ask similar questions, or be of the opinion that Israel's response in Gaza and in Lebanon, was "over done".

roachboy

it may not appear to be necessary for many americans, but i would imagine that having some idea of what hezbollah is might help in shaping discussions of it, even this very strange one, which seems to originate in the usual line of pr/war marketing that is all too prevalent these days.

it would be good to be able to distinguish war marketing from other information factors, dont you think?

the following presents an interesting snapshot of hezbollah and of the unintended consequences of this new bush-approved fiasco

source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...835274,00.html

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jimbob

Well all I can say is that they must be terrible shots on both sides.

Civillians killed by...
Israel: 828
Hezbollah: 20

Military killed by...
Israel: 43 confirmed by hz, 300+ claimed by Israel
Hezbollah: 36

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Is...banon_conflict


But that could be anything, we only have Israel's word for it. According to a relief worker on a radio report, they pulled out many dead children from Qana, but no guns.


Perhaps there should be a poll. "If the Israeli army were facing a more powerful enemy than themselves, and hadn't the weaponry to advance, they would retreat to... (A) the fields, (B) the towns and cities"

Perhaps another reason Hezbollah fight in the towns is that the Israelis have kept secret the location of the landmines they planted during their last occupation. Obviously, these are compassionate, democratic landmines which only kill terrorists.

Ustwo

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/200311...h-be-next.html

Interesting history for those of you who know little about Hezbollah (I'll assume most of you). I found the quote bellow rather interesting.

Makes that cartoon seem pretty accurate don't you think jimbob?

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jimbob

No, no, no! These attacks never happened. As Bush says, the capture of the Isreali soldiers was 'unprovoked'.

The title of the cartoon is 'Crosshairs' - it's about where each side aims rather than where each side is hiding. It suggests that Hezbollah target civillians whereas Israel targets Hezbollah but that is not backed up by the stats. I already know why Hezbollah hide in towns, I don't need a professor to explain it. I also think Israel would do the same given different circumstances. Did they launch their own terror campaing from open countryside, before the formation of the Israeli state?

Ustwo

Umm no its not. The cartoon shows that while Hezbollah hides behind civilians they claim to protect Israel protects their civilians.

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Willravel

No, Ustwo. The Hezbollah hide behind civilians.



To which you quickly correct him saying how Hezbollah hides behind civilians. Doesn't that sound like you're both saying the same thing?

Do you read people's posts and respond accordingly, or do you read the first few words, and then guess at what they are trying to say? Jimbob was explaining that the crosshairs themselves, not the people in the picture, are incorrect. It's obvious that more Lebanese civilians have died than Hezbollah members. That means that the crosshair should be on the civilians of Lebanon, not the Hezbollah.

Mephisto2

To be honest, I'm quite surprised at everyone railing against Hezbollah more than at Hamas.

Hezbollah was formed as a direct response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. They have stated they will cease military action once Israel withdraws.

Hamas, on the other hand, are specifically committed to the destruction of Israel.

Both organizations are terrorist in nature. However, one is a bit crazier than the other. I believe the only reason the US is supporting the action against Hezbollah, and not encouraging Israel to do the same against Hamas, is because Hezbollah is actively supported by Iran and Syria.

It's strange really. Israel is destroying one of the few examples of a good, democratic nation in the Arab world, and the US is egging it on. And Bush uses IRAQ as an example to the world, asking other countries to adopt it as a model?!

It's a strange world we live in.


Mr Mephisto

stevo

http://www.adl.org/backgrounders/lebanon_withdrawal.asp
hmmm. so the attacks by hezballah that started this latest mess was....a resistance to the israeli occupation of lebanon?

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host

stevo, there is overwhelming evidence that Mr. Mephisto is entirely correct in his point that the Israeli government created "the monster", hezbollah.

You cited a "piece" from an ADL web page as the sole support for your challenge of Mr. Mephisto's point. You didn't actually challenge Mr. Mephisto's point....you "twisted it".....in your post's parting comment. Mr. Mephisto did not say that the latest round of violence in Lebanon was because of Israel's former occupation of portions of that country.

The documentation that I post here, is a catalyst for asking the obvious question; would hezbollah exist today, to forcefully oppose Israel, if not for Israel's history....since 1978, of IDF operations inside Lebanon?

Would it be an offense to your sensibilities if the sole support for my challenge of your "point", was propaganda from an <a href="http://www.adc.org/">ADC</a> sponsored web page? Do you think that you "raise the bar" here, by posting something from the ADL, with no other support for your "challenge"?

stevo

bla bla bla host. did you skip the line where mephesto typed ?
Or did you conveniently ignore that statement. My response didn't deal with the creaton of hezbolla. it was in response to "They have stated they will cease military action once Israel withdraws." I posted an article pointing out how Israel has withdrawn from lebanon, yet hezbolla still decided to cross over into uncontested land, kill and kidnap israeli soldiers.

I know you try your hardest to look at israel as the enemy and view all my posts as "not adding to the discourse" but as always you are so off in left field you need to climb back over the wall to get in the game.

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boatin

Bit of a continued threadjack:

There were many native american 'cities' destroyed by the US Military. Does that count as fighting in cities? Or is that different? Pretty sure that was policy. Roachboy already mentioned that...

I get tired of mythology of the United States. We have done more good than any country in history. A good honest look at our crappy decisions and poor choices doesn't detract a bit from the great stuff.

An unwillingness to look at the bad stuff we've done just sets us up to do more of it. We're never going to have slaves again. We're never going to round up differnet nationalities and put them in camps. Our 'bad things' morph and vary in severity. But pretending that they can't happen is foolishness.

Nothing is black and white in politics or human behavior. And I would have said that's pretty obvious when looking at the middle east. But I continue to be amazed at how black and white that is for so many.

Seaver

Um... you believe this?

Israel left Lebanon back in the 80s. They've been getting pretty much daily attacks since. Please, explain how you can trust their statement after 20 years?

Mephisto2

Very well said.

The United States, without doubt, is the greatest country in the history of the Earth with its emphasis on freedom, democracy and general good intentions towards others.

But to pretend there have not been bad decisions, or even crappy, illegal and sometimes immoral acts, is just breathtakingly stupid. That kind of hubris does more to destroy the reputation of the US amongst like-minded "Western" countries that almost anything else.

The world would be indescribably worse off without America.

But some people here think it has never made a single mistake.


How arrogant is that?



Mr Mephisto

Well, we would have to see, wouldn't we.

If you simply don't believe them, then why do you expect people to believe the US in anything they say? That's a bit of a vicious circle right there.

Erm... No they didn't.

Israel still occupies the Sheebaa Farms, an area close to (some say part of) the Golan Heights.

Hezbollah have regularly stated that would revert to politics only were Israel to return this occupied land to Israel (they also want maps of Israeli landmines).

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B405467.htm
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...55FF28BF92.htm



There's also an interesting article about Hezbollah in general at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah. I suggest you read it.



Mr Mephisto

flstf

Maybe it is time for the U.S. to back off and stop trying to be the world's police. If oil goes to $200 a barrel we will find new reserves or develop alternatives. Europe will figure out something as well eventually. If Vietnam taught us nothing else it is that we should go all out to win these conflicts or not engage at all.

Perhaps we should continue to give Israel support and let them carry the battle in the middle east if they can. I don't believe the U.S. has the stomach for these limited warfare engagements.

Israel seems to be fighting with one hand tied behind their back, worried about world reaction. They should either go all out and eliminate their enemies or quit putting their troops in harms way. When Iran gets their nuclear arsenal ready things will be much more difficult later on.

Seaver

Sorry Mephisto, the Sheeba Farms were part of Syria not Lebanon. It was captured LONG before the Lebanese Civil War.

Why was it captured? The Syrians were using it as an artillery observation center as it daily bombarded Israel.

Now I'm sure you'll say how it's disputed territory. Well legally it's not. It was mandated in the 30s as part of Syria. In 2000 Lebanon laid claim to the land based on deeds. This, however, holds nothing as far as international borders are concerned. That would be like saying since many Americans own land in Mexico, Baja California is rightfully ours.

So, Hezbolla is already lying.

roachboy

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/

here is a link to a human rights watch report on israeli targetting of civilians in lebanon. it is interesting. have a look.

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it make you sick.

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