Seaver

Taken from your link Roachboy. Wow... sounds reliable to me. I also witnessed the aftermath of Katrina, you dont have to go investigate yourself what happened, I'll tell you about the baby raping that went on in the Super Dome.

Willravel

Are you suggesting that more Israelis have been killed than Lenabese in this recent tragety?

stevo

who knows?

if you want to listen to hezbollah then they are winning and they are killing IDF soldiers at will. They shoot most of them in the back because the jews are always running away. And they just sunk a ship and killed 50 IDF sailors.

Keep listening to the lebanese, because they aren't going to inflate the casualty numbers for sympathy or to make israel look bad.

I'll take whatever figure the lebanese or hezbollah wants to give me for lebanese civillian deaths and divide it by 10. probably more accurate.

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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Willravel

Okay, if we're not going to trust Lebanon, then why bother to listen to anyone over there? Why believe Israel's numbers? Why even think anything is going on at all over there?

Edit: oh right, there ARE whitnesses. There are people leaving Lebanon in droves, telling tales of dead people and targeted civilians. There are videos everywhere (watched the news lately?). CNN International had several videos last week of Lebanon being bombarded. Are those lies? There are somewhere between 477-833 Lebanese civilians dead, and 2,145-3,200 wounded. Israel has only reported 31 dead and maybe 600 wounded.

stevo

I don't know. what are your thoughts on the video ustwo posted in the pallywood thread?

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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

AVoiceOfReason

Correct. I wish I could credit who said this, but I can't: The US should be the world's firemen, not the world's policemen. Get in, put out the fire (fix the problem) and get out. I know, there are times that the problem is not so easily identified (or fixed) as when a building is on fire, but I like the sentiment behind it.


Then we need to develop the stomach for it. It is that lack of resolve that has been said to have created part of the problem in the first place. I got this from http://archive.salon.com/news/col/ho...rs/index1.html

"We have seen in the last decade the decline of the American government and the weakness of the American soldier who is ready to wage Cold Wars and unprepared to fight long wars," bin Laden has stated. "This was proven in Beirut when Marines fled after two explosions. It also proves they can run in less than 24 hours, and this was also repeated in Somalia. We are ready for all occasions. We rely on Allah."

We disagree here; I don't think Israel cares a whit about the PR of the matter, or the "world reaction."


[/QUOTE]

Agreed. It would be hard to explain to the family of an Israeli soldier killed fighting why the job wasn't finished (if they pull back before that time). I don't think there will be any explaining to do when it's over--it seems to me that Israel means business and Hezbollah underestimated the reaction to kidnapping some Israelis.

But then, making mistakes in judgment is kind of what we've come to expect from the children that make up such groups.

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AVOR

A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

Ustwo

In this I disagree. If they didn't care, they would have done this years ago, I think they have come to see the world reaction has been manipulated by the press and their odd pro-palistinian agenda to the point that they can't get good PR so why bother trying. I still hope this escalates NOW before the nutballs in Iran get a working nuclear weapon, which the UN will write a strongly worded letter about.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

I just voiced them a minute ago.

For the sake of not further connecting the two individual threads, I'll leave my response at that.

Tha fact is that there are only so many sources for information, and those sources have to be found reliable. No news network is totally reliable, of course, but I see no evidence that there have been as many or more Israli casualties as Lenabese. Figures suggest that the casualties and injuries are rather one sided.

AVoiceOfReason

I think we're saying the same thing; you said they have reached the point they don't bother trying, and I said they don't care about good PR. If we're not on the same page, I think we're in the same chapter.

And yes, the UN is proving again to be a nice debating society, an organization that seems to think talking about something is the same thing as actually doing something.

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AVOR

A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

Ustwo

True.

I think they cared but with Europe showing its old anti-semetic self, and the US behind them I think they no longer care.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ubertuber

Your brief analysis may be correct, but I think using the words "anti-semitic" here is sloppy. Both sides of this conflict are semitic peoples. I'd prefer not to wander down that particular path.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Ustwo

So does 'anti-Jewish' work better? Its a turd by any other name.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ubertuber

Good point. I was just making an aside.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

powerclown

Both sides obviously have an agenda...I side with the forces of democracy, moderation and freedom, and against the forces of dictatorship, extremism and intolerance. I think more of the leading countries of the world should do the same.

Mephisto2

The fact is that the area is disputed. You say they are part of Syria. Lebanon lays claim, as does Hezbollah. Syria used to.

However, the disputation of sovereignty has no relevance upon my point; which was that Hezbollah have stated they will lay down arms once Israel complies with UN Security Council Resolution 425.

Lying when they say they will lay down arms if and when Israel withdraws? And since when are you the sole arbitrator of International Law? Excuse me if I take your legal summation of this decades long issue with a pinch of salt.

Also, sorry to seem to ask the obvious, but how do you know Hezbollah are lying when they say they will lay down their arms? Or do you claim to see into the future?

Finally, here are some links you might be interested in. You can see varying points of view in these sites, so please don't accuse me of bias.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_Farms
http://www.shebaafarms.org/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/763504.stm
http://www.meib.org/articles/0105_l1.htm
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...55FF28BF92.htm




Mr Mephisto

Seaver

Ok, can write that one off the list. They even admit their information is not correct.

Your MEIB.org site clearly states...

The area is Syrian. It has been Syrian almost as long as there has been a Syria. The claim that the demarcation is illegal would in and of itself make both Syrian and Lebanese borders illegal.

Thus, it would be as if a German terrorist organization attacked France for 20 years because they believe Luxembourg should belong to Germany..

Mephisto2

Well, it seems as if all we need to do is recall Condi and send you over to the Middle East, as you seem to be able to solve all the area's problems with one sentence.

Or is this part of the problem?

:-/



Mr Mephisto