06-09-2006, 06:03 PM | #41 (permalink) | |
Rookie
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I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips |
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06-10-2006, 04:33 AM | #42 (permalink) |
Illusionary
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We have killed a major terrorist leader in Iraq. We will continue to kill major terrorist leaders in Iraq. Five years from now we will likelly be killing major terrorist leaders in Iraq. Perhaps in ten years we can turn over the killing of major terrorist leaders in Iraq....to the Iraqis.
Or....we may be killing Iraqis who are Major Terrorist leaders in Iraq. This killing while an important boost politically....borders on irrelevant in the actual "War on Terrorism", and in fact may simply end up a recruiting tool for the bad guys. In my opinion we are fighting a war that cannot be won with Bombs, but hey....what do I know.
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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
06-10-2006, 10:00 AM | #43 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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For the record all aid for the Russian-Afghan war was funded through the Pakistani ISI, America had no discretion as to how it was allotted. This is ofcourse due to the whole premise that the Mujahdeen movement would have been without merit it America "the Great Satan" had a direct hand in what was a conflict portrayed as an Islamic/Arab struggle.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
06-10-2006, 10:19 AM | #44 (permalink) |
Mulletproof
Location: Some nucking fut house.
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Something that I wonder about is how the treatment of his body is viewed by the extremists or faithfully practicing Muslims even. From what I gather, there are certain ways that the body must be treated even including how long after death the burial should be. Is the autopsy something that is going to further fuel extremist hatred towards the US? Will moderate Muslims understand why the US is examining the remains so closely? Should the US even give two shits about any of these religious practices? Is this even anything to wonder about or is it the mainstream media’s influence on how I digest reports about things of this nature?
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Don't always trust the opinions of experts. |
06-10-2006, 10:49 AM | #45 (permalink) | |
Devils Cabana Boy
Location: Central Coast CA
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I’m not saying that the war is not being sanitized; I think it is, but some sanitization is needed.
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Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen |
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06-10-2006, 12:46 PM | #46 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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06-10-2006, 01:05 PM | #47 (permalink) |
Adequate
Location: In my angry-dome.
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I was going to mention the Saddam family treatment.
It isn't easy to tell who's who with blood & grime everywhere. A mortician's makeup job would be my idea of sanitizing. This guy would have been appropriate for a plywood casket propped outside the General Store.
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There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195 |
06-10-2006, 01:13 PM | #48 (permalink) | ||||||
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Isn't it curious, that, when they couldn't "catch" Zarqawi, he was reduced by the same folks who bring you this "bombing Op"....to a clownish, incompetent stooge? Which is it? Stooge or death of a bogey man signifigant enough to turn the tide of war? Quote:
Remember the "mobile bio weapons trailers"? They were described by Powell at the UN, in the same presentation where he rolled out the al Zarqawi / Al Qaeda connection. Say....has anybody even wondered if this Zarqawi corpse has a leg missing, or not? Wasn't treatment of his leg, the reason that he was in Baghdad in 2002 for medical treatment. That was the story that our government fed us to link Saddam to Al Qaeda. Do any of these questions even matter, in a "breaking news" environment, like this one? Quote:
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06-10-2006, 02:46 PM | #49 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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Both WaPo and NYT are reporting the above claim. Don't y'all hate it when the story changes?
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06-10-2006, 03:31 PM | #50 (permalink) |
It's all downhill from here
Location: Denver
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host,
for someone questioning eveyone's viewpoints, what about yours? you latch on to every single piece of dissenting information you can find, regardless of its source or validity. your "story" has not been proven by any means, and you assail others for believing a story that has much more evidence going for it. if it has a remote chance of making the us gov or pres. bush look bad, you're all for it. you come into every arguement from the same doorway, with the same slant, regardless of topic. without a bit of objectivity, how can you expect to be taken seriously?
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Bad Luck City |
06-10-2006, 06:37 PM | #51 (permalink) | |||||
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I've got plenty of company....and frankly, I don't understand why you "raise the bar" so high as to what news reports I should post....how much of what Bush and Cheney have told us in their official statments, turned out to be "proven"? My statements and the links that I've posted on this forum are much more closer to the truth than the crap that has come out of their mouths, especially concerning issues of war and their efforts to uphold the protections specified to protect the rights of the people in the Consitution. I think that your criticism of me is misplaced. Shooting the messenger is a poor substitute for challenging and questioning everything that our "leaders" disclose to us. Their record for truth telling and avoiding making deliberately misleading statements, sucks. How should I react to what they've done and what they've said. I'm concerned that I've not been nearly critical or questioning, enough, given their breach of trust in matters as serious as war and the handling of intelligence and classified information. Have a look: Quote:
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06-11-2006, 05:20 AM | #52 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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For myself, I don't like this bomb-suspects-from-the-sky business. As I mentioned on another forum - if this is allowed under the new Iraqi constitution, that's a problem.
I'm also wondering how many places they bombed until they got the right one? |
06-12-2006, 03:15 AM | #53 (permalink) | |||||
Banned
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<b>Why does former CBS News foreign correspondent, Tom Fenton, "hate" America?</b>
Maybe it has something to do with American's "knowing what they Know", despite the "facts". Walter Pincus of the WaPo is one of the most earnest and reliable, political news reporters of our era, and he sez: Quote:
How about you? You've made a special effort, you're reading a thread on a politics forum. Make the extra effort and take the extra time to never accept what the government tells you, just because it seems to fit what you think that you know. Unless you question everything, you'll just be a repository for what they've told you, and you'll be able to repeat it all like a parrot, but you'll only "know" what the government wants you to "know". Quote:
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06-12-2006, 07:47 AM | #54 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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Is it unfair to use the words 'Al Qaida in Iraq" and 'Pentagon' interchangably, especially after the 'Military Plays Up Role of Zarqawi' article on the first page? How can we be sure that this new internet posting proclaiming the new leader of al qaida in Iraq is anything other than more BS from the Pentagon?
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06-12-2006, 08:03 AM | #55 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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06-12-2006, 10:22 AM | #56 (permalink) | |||
Banned
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I don't know....so how can you know??? Time Magazine reports yesterday that a small Delta Force team of U.S. soldiers was close enough to determine that Zarqawi did not leave the house before they called in an airstrike. Today, Gen. Caldwell says that U.S. troops did not arrive until 28 minutes after the air strike, just 24 minutes before Zarqawi died.
The U.S. Army tells us that Zarqawi died of lung injuries, alleged "proof" that he was not "beaten to death", but is it "proof" that he was not beaten? Quote:
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06-12-2006, 07:36 PM | #57 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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What can one say, except "Good Job"?
There will of course be another one, but if the Palestinians continue to self implode and Israel finishes its wall or *gasp* if they pull their collective heads out and actually negotiate peace with Israel, then we'll finally start on the road to a lasting peace.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
06-12-2006, 07:48 PM | #58 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Host,
Honestly, I'm not sure if it makes any difference to me whether he was beaten to death or bombed to death. I mean, they dropped the bomb on the house specifically because HE was there - so whether the killing was close range or by pushing a button, it almost amounts to an assassination... It seems to me that this matters more than the exact mechanism of his demise (if it matters at all). Really, I see this as a non-issue. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a person that thinks the US has license to kill, imprison, and torture anyone we want, but I am rather apathetic about whether troops beat Zarqawi before he died, or even if they killed him by beating him. After all, they dropped a bomb on him, and that was intended to kill him. And for the record, whether Zarqawi was incompetent or not, and whether his mayhem was a construction of the DoD or not doesn't matter to me either. He was someone who either killed innocents well or poorly, and for that I think he was fair game. I guess I'd just rather see us pursue questions that are a little more meaningful...
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
06-13-2006, 03:25 AM | #59 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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it's entirely reasonable, I think, to understand that there are "coalition forces" as an entity seperate or over and above smaller units (e.g., Delta Force, or whathaveyou) that may or may not be contained within that signifier when the person thinking about "coalition forces" is speaking.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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06-13-2006, 03:44 AM | #60 (permalink) |
Mulletproof
Location: Some nucking fut house.
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Be they special forces or new privates out of basic training, I'd think the first Americans on the scene would realize "dead men tell no tales" and not beat the shit out of him. For the most part, our Marines and sodliers are better trained that what the media leads us to think.
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Don't always trust the opinions of experts. |
06-13-2006, 07:17 AM | #61 (permalink) | ||
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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06-13-2006, 08:54 AM | #62 (permalink) | ||||||
Banned
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Instead, my sensibilities are still smarting from earlier disclosures that the NY Times reporter Judy Miller planted false WMD stories that were handed to her By Ahmed Chalabi, probably directed by PNAC. I recall the false certainty with which the Bush administration embellished the false "mobile biological weapons trailers" story, and the "Op" about the Zarqawi propaganda campaign that was fed to NY Times', Dexter Filkins, via selective leaks. That "Op" included a fake Zarqawi "letter". I note that some folks here believe that the NY Times is "liberal", even after all of the disclosures that it's reporters and editors have been so "incurious" when it came time to publish what should have been suspected as blatant propaganda. I note that so many who post here, have their "minds made up", and I have to wonder....and post....over and over....how they can do that. What do they "pick out", that they know to be "true"? Last week, the Haditha atrocities story and a deteriorating stock market dominated the news. The....as if a switch was thrown, the government was able to shift attention, almost instantaneously...to the story that it wanted us to focus on....the still changing story of our military's "success" in "bombing" the bogey man that was created by our government's own propaganda. The "timing" of the new "our military get's it's evil-doer" story, was just as convenient. a few days ago, as this scenario was, 2 years ago: Quote:
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06-13-2006, 08:07 PM | #63 (permalink) | |
It's all downhill from here
Location: Denver
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God did it for the GOP. And Zarqawi was "invented" to deflect attention from Abu Ghraib. And Nick Berg...I don't even know what you're trying to say there. Are you implying Zarqawi was too competent to be bombed to death, because he was succesfull at beheadings and showing them on the internet? You said incompetent, but the entire sentence doesn't make any sense. You had to have mistyped something in there somewhere. At least you are admitting "Z" is dead now? Or at least more than likely dead?
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Bad Luck City |
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06-13-2006, 11:37 PM | #64 (permalink) | |
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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Pray tell what "alleged proof" WOULD satisfy you? That a beating DIDN'T happen, I mean? (Sigh)-- Just remembered that pointing out logical fallacies is a "personal attack."
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher Last edited by Marvelous Marv; 06-14-2006 at 12:48 AM.. |
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06-14-2006, 03:07 AM | #65 (permalink) | ||||||||||
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docbungle, Powell, Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld raised Zarqawi in stature to the point that they announced that he was "worth" a $25 million bounty.
Do you find it believable, that Zarqawi, in the midst of the escalating negative publicity disclosing and condemning Abu Ghraib abuse and degradation of Iraqi prisoners, chose to personally behead Nick Berg, on video, then obligingly post the video file on a website for download by the media, claim credit for doing so, but wear a mask during the videotaping that entirely covered his head? The timing of the beheading, which immediatley shifted focus of negative publicity away from the Bush admin., and the U.S. military, and turned all of it onto Zarqawi, personally, was what I meant by my "incompetent" reference. None of it is very believable. It's just too convenient, and it is such a "poor" strategic decision by an adversary portrayed by our leaders as "cunning" enough to be worthy of a $25 million bounty, it makes the "story" that Zarqawi, the terrorist, "mastermind", conveniently "stepped in", at the most opportune moment for our leaders, to display his own "personal" brutality, and thus, justify and redeem our leaders for invading and occupying Iraq, and relegated Abu Ghraib from a human rights "scandal", to a minor transgression, moved suddenly to the back page of most newspapers. Here is some illuminating news reporting about Zarqawi, in chronological order: Quote:
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Then, please consider how interwined the Powell/Bush administration assertions about Zarqawi were with their argument that he was the "key" proof of a close ties and cooperation between Saddam's government and Al Qaeda. After Cheney's discredited assertions about Atta's Prague "meeting" with an Iraqi intelligenc official he denied what he was videotaped saying: Quote:
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If you've read Powell's entire Feb., 5, 2003 presentation to the UN, it might be "fun" to pick out two things that he used to try to build a coalition in the UN to invade Iraq, that have stood up to time and scrutiny....just two. I don't know what to "believe" as to whether Zarqawi actually existed as described by our leaders, whether he is/was "al-Qaida", whether he is alive or dead, whether he was beaten before he died, whether a "child" was killed in the house where he was allegedly bombed, or whether he even mattered, beyond being the subject of a long and contradictory, US government propaganda "Op". I do know that nobody else, outside of a small group close to our leaders and their trusted senior military and intelligence officers, know either. This is just another little exercise, brought to you by that "Bush hatin", "America hatin" liber-ull, "host", intended to challenge you to think about what you really "can know" reliably, based on what actually is spewed out of this U.S. administration...or at least, what you have to ignore, in order to disagree with what I've tried to persuade you to examine....... |
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06-14-2006, 07:30 AM | #67 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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06-14-2006, 10:00 AM | #68 (permalink) |
Banned
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Seaver, stevo.....
I won't settle for participating in a political forum where discussion degrades to a level where everyone regurgitates the opinions shaped entirely by the government's prevailing message, just because that version is repeated the most by our leaders.....I want a "balanced" view, even it causes me to be less "sure" of what I "know". WTF is the sense of being "sure" of things that probably aren't true? I'm trying to "raise the bar", by highlighting the "contradictions" in the news reporting that reaches us, versus what most of us "think" that we "know", and the results are an "eye opener", in their implications. So too.....are both of your responses...... |
06-14-2006, 03:41 PM | #69 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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I wont settle for a conversation where theories are thrown out with little more evidence than stock prices or the fact that Bush's polls go up after Americans died on 9/11. I wont settle for conspiracy theories of voter fraud because your candidate lost, based on machines that weren't even used in the conflicted states. I wont settle for your conspiracy posts in politics where they lead to no discussion. You try to give us "eye openers" where it only leads to people giving a chuckle and ignoring your post. |
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06-14-2006, 06:35 PM | #70 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Seaver, if something in here belongs in Paranoia, it will be moved to Paranoia. I'm not a mod, and neither are you or host. If you don't agree with something, then say so and explain why. I remember this old story about Einstien. He had come up with one of his brilliant theories, and germans scientists started a smear campaign against him saying that he was insane and a jewish sympathizer, etc...so Einstien simply responded, (paraphrased) "All you need to prove me wrong is one fact." My point? If you want to argue against someone, just present your argument. IMHO. Quote:
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abu, alzarqawi, dead, musab |
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