ngdawg

My son is 13. He's a brilliant kid-math wiz, computer geek and a terrific soccer player. Normally, he is pretty mature about things, but this time......
There was a class trip last Friday. The kids rushed to get on the buses and another boy, thinking my son grabbed his backpack, called him a derogatory name. My son hauled off and kicked him, which prompted a return punch in the face. (My son has a ferocious kick and I'm at least glad he didn't do damage).
I did not know any of this. I was told by the school nurse it was a 'shoving match' and my son agreed with that assessment, however reluctantly.
I do not condone such responses at all-I have tried to encourage both my kids to talk it out, express themselves verbally at all times. But this is the second time he has responded with violence, albeit the last time, even the principal felt it justified.
Obviously, I am not going to physically punish him-that'd be just stupid. I just don't know how I should respond to this. The school is already punishing him with in-school suspension for a day. He, I'm sure will not talk about it and I am really hoping his father doesn't have a major fit.
I think I have a couple of options here. One, write an essay on the event. Two, take away the computer for the same amount of time as the suspension-about 8 hours. Do both?
What other options do I have here? He should be held accountable, but I don't want he to be even less talkative about things as a result.....

maleficent

taking away priveledges seems appropriate - though 8 hours doesn't seem like much time -- unless that's spread out over a few days.

He's old enough to know better - maybe some community service - or some yardwork to work off some of that energy that he's got?

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Janey

I think that if you come down on him as well as the school, he's going to feel persecuted and become resentful. If it was me, I would be looking for some sort of understanding, not punishment. I think he already understands what he should not have done, and probably will learn from it going forward. As you said, he is already getting a school sanctioned time-out. Maybe just a quiet conversation with him, no groundings, no revocation of priviledges, but just a conversation about the event. (how would you discuss it withyour hubby, if he got into a shoving match at work?)

I think your son may react more positively if he sees that you are willing to deal with him at a higher level than a young kid.

If you still think it's a good idea to add punishment, it may be a good idea to have him bringing all his school work home for a week, to review regardless if he has homework in the subject. And review it with him, sort of like micro manageing him. Have him spend enough time going over his notes (sell it like : this is how adults do it in university) that he doesn't have time left over for video/computer games. After all, bed time for a 13 yr old has to be around 9:30 latest so they can get their required 10 hrs of sleep per night.

oh yes, last point: make sure you and hubby are on the same page with respect to your reaction. If necessary, lay down the law with hubby as to how to treat a young teenager, and how united parenting is critical.

liquidlight

Have you considered group therapy with your son as a means of opening lines of communication? It sounds like he's becoming recessive, and speaking from my experiences doing the same thing it's a dark place to be that ever 10 years later I'm still trying to crawl out of. I'm not suggesting medicating him, but perhaps a professional that could help you and your son talk to each other would add a bit of a buffer and make you both more comfortable before the situation escalates into something more severe.

If your son is anything like I was at that age, and from your description it sounds like he is, then letting his father go off on him is most likely going to cause some serious harm, it certainly did with me. I don't know if you've got the option to put his dad in check, but if you could make sure that he remains calm when dealing with it that could also help your so communicate, I was so scared of my dad that I never said anything because it always ended up just making him more angry.

My last comment is YOU GO BOY!! I think the little brat falsely accusing him should've gotten kicked, but don't tell him that I said so I think you're right with encouraging nonviolent resolutions, and I think it might be worth mentioning to him when you talk to him that while responding to such things is necessary using his mind to embarass the other boy is a lot more lasting and effective. Aren't I terrible?

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Glory's Sun

I don't think you should take away anything. He stood up for himself which is a good thing. The school has disciplined him enough IMO. Of course I'm not a parent so .. I could be way off on this. It's not often that you see geeks (no offense intended) stick up for themselves like that. Hopefully, the other kids will realize that and not mess with him any more.

astrahl

I like the idea of a writing assignment. It could be diary style entry explaining the incident exactly as it happened, his thought process and how he arrived at the conclusion that violence was the way to handle it.

Maybe ask for three alternatives he could have chosen that would have been better decisions. That would help him reason through other ways to deal with the situation and that lesson may stick with him the next time some punk-asshole confronts him.

And I think it is important that the suspension day be a day without reward (ie: computer, video games, phone calls to friends, etc.) He should still do his school work/reading/assignments.

__________________
Maybe it was over when she chucked me out the Rover at full speed.
Maybe Maybe...
~a-Ha

ngdawg

I like Astrahl's take. I told my son he had to write an essay about what happened with 2 ways it should have been resolved. Son hates to write and protested, but he will do it, I'll make sure.
Now, to be a buffer between his dad and him.....

TexanAvenger

Personally, having been made to do the essay thing, I don't like that suggestion. Not, however, because it was annoying or anything like that. Rather, I did it, gave it to my parents, and didn't think about it every again. It wasn't a punishment in any sense, at least not for me.

I'd be much more apt (if/when I have rugrats/mini-me's of my own) to tell them that I was disappointed in the way they acted... That's what motivated me most when I screwed up at home: my parents' disappointment.

Good luck buffering...

Chuckles

Whats the point of writing an essay? Gonna make him have a thesis, 3 body paragraphs, and a conclusion too?? Having him say why he did it and talking about it with him will do the exact same thing as writing an essay on the subject will. I dont believe he needs therapy either. 13 year olds rough house, shieeeet i still roughhouse. Im sure he'll be writing essays as the school punishment too, so dont make him write another. As we all know, essay's can be BS'ed like no other, and I bet that he's gotten to the point in school where bs'ing an essay is what the teacher wants to read, and what will get him the grade. Im sure he'll do it for this one too. And its an "in school" suspension? Be glad he didn't get kicked out for a week or somethin more like that. He was defending himself. Just talk with him about it.

astrahl

BS on the "roughhousing" boys-will-be-boys bullshit. You don't allow any kid to go unpunished when he reacts with violence to a verbal assault - that doesn't just "resolve itself."

The essay means he has to sit there and think about what he did and put it all into words - even if he doesn't remember it for a lifetime, kids are so ADD, 5 minutes is an eternity of thought. And so what if it is <i>another</i> essay? This one is a type of confession to his parents and if he respects them, he will feel some shame in the admission of guilt.

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Maybe it was over when she chucked me out the Rover at full speed.
Maybe Maybe...
~a-Ha

ngdawg

He wrote, not much but he wrote and we talked about it. As astahl said, he is ashamed, both for how he acted and how he lied about the event.
My son is not a boys will be boys kind of kid. He doesn't mouth off or lash out normally. In fact, he gets picked on a lot because of who he is (a tall, smart, funny kid) and has, til now, shown a great deal of restraint.

jorgelito

You might want the father to take this one. People forget that kids need their fathers, especially adolecent males seeing how he won't talk about it with you. Don't worry mom, you're doing fine and should be commended for invovlving yourself so much in your kids life.

mokle

Put him in boxing lessons so he doesn't have to get hit in the face again.

Honestly, coming from a guy, this is something I would have rather worked out with my dad.

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Mokle
"Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see" -Ali

chickentribs

I really respect your thoughtfullness and time in considering the situation for your son, he will too someday when he looks back at the attention you and your husband give him. Sounds like he is getting close to that stage when being respected as an adult will carry more weight than fear of punishment. I know they don't like to talk, but if you started out with a story when you felt attacked by someone and how it made you feel, especially a high school story of yours it may help. Sometimes we want to talk, but think we will just get judged. He may or may not be mature enough yet, but you sure sounded like he was when you described him. My guess is that there were a number of things leading up to the kick that he did endure that you haven't heard about. It would be good to know the whole story before judging him.

Lastly, it's not easy being a 13 year old math whiz computer head. It doesn't bring a lot of respect at school, outside of your teachers and close friends. It can make you a popular target with kids that don't get math so easily and you either draw your line in the sand or run from people the rest of your life. He sounds like a great kid!

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and most oft there Where most it promises
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Daoust

HEAVENS! Can you imagine the psychological damage that will befall this poor child if, dare I say it, he is punished for doing something against the rules??? I mean, it's downright nutty to even suggest that you, as a parent should double what is doubtless an already harsh punishment from the school. Here's a better idea. First of all, tell your son that it's not his fault, that it's that damn other kids fault. Then move on to blaming the teachers and the schools for your sons negative behaviour. Remember! Your son shouldn't feel bad for what he did. This is crucial! Under no circumstances should the boy feel that breaking the rules is unacceptable. Teach him to fight authority. Teach him that rules are meant for breaking. Teach him that there is no hierarchical structure and that teachers and all adults and people in authority are not really to be taken seriously.

Lets get this message out quick before our kids turn into law breaking, disrespectful, rude, obnoxious people!

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But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

Janey

Yes! imagine the damage! good gracious! yes lets just load it up as heavey as we can.

give the kid some credit for being able to come to some conclusions on his own. Oh yes, I get it, people are not allowed to make mistakes, and learn from them.

Looks like he understands that the rules are not for breaking.

Looks like he has been punished.

Looks like he's going to need to review his actions.

Looks like a good time for the family structure to employ some support and understanding rather than good ol' fashioned wuppings

Looks like an apportunity for some growing up and acceptance of responsibilities.

Looks like this kid is not a hooligan. not a bully, and can actually learn and improve from his experiences. Some teenagers can do that.

PDOUBLEOP

The part that I find disturbing is that you feel the need to be a buffer between him and his father.

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ef you-you effing ef

Daoust

Can you imagine that a parent might discipline their child in addition to that which is being given out by the school as a means of supporting the decision made by the school? Once upon a time it was just understood that if you got in trouble at school, you got in trouble at home too. That was the parents way of saying "we support the teachers", and it cemented in the childs mind that the teacher and parent worked together, not against them, but for them, in the long run.

Is that so hard to swallow?? Would doing so devastate the child? I know it wouldn't. Like you said...:

... and nobody said anything about corporal punishment. That is not what this thread is about!

These are kids, Janey. I'm not saying that they're not capable of learning from their mistakes. They can and do. But 13 year olds still need discipline, especially from their parents.

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

Xell101

He ought learn to tolerate idiocy. It's quite useful. How to do that, I don't know. I assume keeping him from turning the suspension into a free day of vacation coupled with a brief shpiel about not suffering fools, for you'll live just that much longer, will be fine.

ngdawg

His dad is a hollerer-very loud and can at times cut one down. By going to him before he even hit the door, I knew I could keep relative peace.

His suspension was in-school. They sit in a windowless room in single cubicles from start to finish of the day. They get 2 bathroom breaks as a group, and lunch as a group-taken back to the room to eat. The school system here discourages out of school suspensions unless the infraction was major because kids use it as a day off.
He's come through relatively unscathed, albeit a bit embarrassed that he had suspension in the first place and, I think, he understands the ramifications of his actions.
We stressed that, while it was wrong to strike out, however provoked, it was more wrong to lie about it to the people he should be trusting.
This is a really good dialogue going. I appreciate the input.

EULA

I think in-school suspension is enough of a punishment. The reason the school system discourages out of school suspensions is because they want that tax money! lol
Some good might come from this. Maybe now he won't get picked on as often if people think he's a loose cannon. If your son continues to start closing up, you might want to consider homeschooling.

Gilda

That's part of it, sure, but it's more that In-school suspension is much more effective as a form of punishment (as is Saturday School). Out of school suspension serves as a reward if it isn't accompanied by negative consequences at home, and it often isn't. Out of school suspension, if not accomanied by negative consequences, only serves to make the problem worse, because students learn that they can get a reward--a play day off--for misbehavior.

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Joan of Arc

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Janey

I believe that I agree with you.

rfc9s

I believe the school's punishment will be enough in the punishment category. However, suspension does not, in many cases, a solution make.

To what extent would you describe your son's behavior as a pattern of behavior? It has happened twice, but do you think it will happen again? When you are working with problem behaviors, always focus on the future - the past has already happened. Think mainly about how to prevent the behavior from happening in the future. If you really don't think he'll do it again, then your job is done. If you think he might, why? That's the first step in solving the probelm - figuring out what the problem is.

Mephisto2

I was always told never to kick.

"Don't let me see you raising your foot to anyone!" was the warning which I learned to ignore at my own peril.

It sounds like you've imbuing your child with a good set of morals. I agree that he needs to be punished, but he also needs to know that kicking is unacceptable. Even though at first I thought the idea of an essay was very "school-master like", the more I think about it the more I like it.


Mr Mephisto

MsNobody

"But this is the second time he has responded with violence, albeit the last time, even the principal felt it justified."

Speaks for itself.

ngdawg

In 4th grade, when he beat the kid over the head with his lunchbag(which gives me a chuckle now, but it wasn't funny then), I was called to the school to speak with the principal. He feared for my son's emotional future-recollecting Columbine. He had been verbally lashing out at tormenters, of which there was no short supply and then the hitting.
I took him to a behavioral therapist and the questionaire given me pointed completely to ADD. We had already known my son has a behavioral allergy to sodium nitrates and controlled his intake of processed foods-too much and he would be belligerent, throw temper tantrums, be unable to control talking and zone out.(anyone reading this who has had trouble with some behaviors should look into this allergy-it's more common than people realize)
After over a year of behavioral therapy, we went as far as we could with it and his ADD lessened. Since I refuse to medicate him, we have to be vigilant at times, repeating ourselves without yelling, reteaching and reenforcing rules. These things are exacerbated by the fact that we are dealing with a 13 year old boy with the mental intelligence of an adult but the emotions of a child.
Studies have shown that the frontal lobes(they control civilized thinking) do not fully form until about 18-21 years of age. It is why teenagers seem to make so many thoughtless mistakes and social blunders. By enforcing family and societal rules of behavior, we can put them on the right path of societal acceptability. The hard part comes in doing this, yet still allowing them to be free thinkers not bound by rigidities and false values.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Mephisto2

This is the most gratifying thing I've read in a long time.

I'm aghast at how often (and let's be blunt here) Americans drug their children.

Feed them well, deal with their issues, be a parent (no one said it was going to be easy) and don't take the easy way out by plying them full of narcotics.


Mr Mephisto

PS - Of course it has its place, but I firmly believe it's not as common as the makers or Ritalin or Prozac want you to believe.

pinkie

I 100% agree.

ShaniFaye

My daughter is diabetic and hyper....we control everything with diet and diet only. The doctor recommended ADD drugs and I flat out said no....the child could concentrate all she wanted when she was doing something she enjoyed. Her father was on Ritalin for a while until his mother learned to control him with diet too. Amanda isnt on a "strict" no processed foods diet, but they have been cut WAY down and her behaviour, while not horrible...just annoying...has changed drastically and she's lost 36 pounds since christmas. She's so proud she can tell she has boobs now and her tummy doesnt jiggle during dance classes (she's 11). Im so glad to see another parent not resort to meds and actually take the time to "parent"

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

ngdawg

I am truly amazed that when people bring children into the world or into their homes, they don't try to learn all they can regarding child development. After all, we as parents are responsible for their mental as well as physical growth-the idea of just winging it until the child goes off on his/her own is almost disgusting to me. We need to learn the why's, the how's and the when's of every stage in order to deal with the trials we face.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

TexanAvenger

Isn't it easier to remember back to when we were that age?

I don't know dawg, I think raising kids is one of those things that just happens based on the person doing the raising. It should be based on interactions between the parent and child, not how a child is supposed to develop. I'm not arguing so much that it wouldn't be good to know developmental stages, but that winging it (as disgusting an idea as it is to you) is the only way I see to do it correctly. Curveballs get thrown and not all kids're the same.

I guess it's really just a matter, in my mind, of book knowledge vs. adaptablity. I don't like the idea of scientificating the raising of children. Little bit too much 1984/Brave New World for me...

Yeah... I know. You're the mom here and I'm just a 19 year old punk who makes up words like "scientificating," but I thought I'd bounce my two cents off the wall and see how much came back...

ngdawg

I'm not saying to go a strictly scientific mode and raise little robots. What I am saying is, by looking into how things work, you can come to a better understanding of why things happen when they do or why they do. It goes to the other extreme of moms worrying because their child isn't walking by 10 months, because some book said it's an average age to.
Knowing the law of averages, things about how the mind works, these take the panic out when those curveballs come. Uniqueness should be embraced at all times.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

TexanAvenger

Just so long as there's not complete scientification of the process...

EULA

13 is a little old for someone to be kicking another person. Does he kick his siblings? dog?

Gilda

I don't think ngdawg is saying that science tells you everything about child rearing. Sometimes the book learnin' won't apply. But it's better to have the tool and not need it than to need the tool and not have it.

For example (a classice example from my child development class) mom is with her four year old at the grocery store, going throuhg the checkout line past the candy. Kid is trying to take candy, mom is putting it back. Kid starts to scream, throw a fit. What do you do? I've seen, time and time again, mom's giving the candy to the kid to shut her up. This is exactly the wrong thing to do. Mom has just told her kid, "If you want candy, throw a fit and you'll get it." She's actually training her child to misbehave by rewarding undesirable behavior. The best course of action is to ignore the fit, and give the child no reward. The child then learns that throwing a fit doesn't get the desired result, and will do something else. This same strategy can be applied in other situations to eliminate fit throwing behaviors.

This is a case of knowing A: basic behvioral psychology and B: developmental stages; a four year old can be trained to behave appropriately most of the time in public.

Knowing the basices of developmental psychology and phsiology allows parents to adapt that information to their own children, using what is useful for them and disregarding what doesn't work. You cannot, however, use information you don't have.

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