Seeker

I was just reading through some of the posts here in the philosophy section and noticed that many of the threads pose speculation in regard to 'evolution', the 'afterlife', alternate realities and such. I have trouble pondering such things as they are not conducive if you don't have a 'faith' or framework to apply it to. I think I also find it a little difficult contributing to many threads because I don't have a specific philosophical framework, I can speculate many different possibilities just for fun, but I know nothing certain, and because of this I don't post (not just this forum but in others too)

I would like to pose a two part question:

A: To what extent can one 'know themselves'?
&
B: We are born and we die. What do we do with the bit in the middle?

I'm looking for your responses based on your philosophical perspectives, and perhaps this can even enlighten some of us (mainly me ) who seem to drift on the path of 'what is philosophy'

asaris

A. Depends on what you mean by 'know yourself'. If you mean what the ancient Greeks meant ("Know your place"), then yes, it is possible. But if you mean something more like what moderns mean by it, it is not possible, and to a certain extent, it is not even a desirable goal. The ethical life should be one of action, not one of navel-gazing, and introspection is only valuable if it improves the quality of our actions.

B. The best we can.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

ARTelevision

Knowing myself is the only goal worth targeting.
This answers the second question - for me at least.

__________________
create evolution

Seeker

I can agree with both asaris and ARTelevision... in relation to 'knowing myself' I think there can be pitfalls and rewards and for me, this spills over into daily life. To work in a job that can have meaning and purpose and plainly just functioning in a society in a way that can bring about a sense of pride, accomplishment and 'worth' (do we all strive for a feeling of worthiness in some form or another? Is that not why we do what we do?). Knowing thyself would be a form of finding out what drives us and why it drives us, then living accordingly.
Pitfalls can happen if you come from a perspective without faith, and to some extent the evolution and chaos theories. At the extreme end - nothing matters, so how does one cope from day to day with this perspective?
Rewards are more likely if you have a firm faith or belief of higher purpose, a higher goal for the human condition so everything matters, so what does one do in their daily lives to be congruent in this perspective?

In the ancient Greek terms of 'knowing your place', that can be difficult to ascertain in the vast amount of possibilities in our society today compared to the ancient societies.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'navel gazing'... but I was coming from the perspective of introspection and examination to improve the quality of actions so as to be 'active' as opposed to 'reactive'. Other terms have described it as being awake or awareness.

I'm sorry I seem to be struggling with my explanation, but I think this is why I wanted some responses based on your philosophical perspectives to allow a broader understanding of both what you believe and why you believe it.

______________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

Hain

First off Seeker, like to say that I love your signature.Then back to this discussion.

A) I do not believe a person can ever truly know one self. The fact is that one may have an idea of what one is, does, and believes, until something comes along and challenges that belief. That understanding at first was secure and uncorrupted until it was tested and possibly exceptions occurred within that understanding. To truly know one self, one would have to have experienced everything, to know exactly what one is. This requires a side of omnipotence that no human, I hope, has in this world.

B) My belief is that it is one's goal in life to better it and others. To be all that one can be is useless if it cannot help another. One's worth and success should not be based on how much has one gained but how much has world been changed by one. No matter how humble or ground-breaking the action is, it's help has hopefully changed everything for good.

Then again, I am 18, but I doubt that these beliefs will change in college.

__________________

////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

Zeraph

That's too bad that you feel that way. The way I see it is that if this is all there is, then there aint no point to it, so mine as well play it like there is more to it.
As much as one can figure out, though we are constantly changing, so it is limitless, but that also means there will always be more to find out.
The best we can.

Seeker

Hey Augi, thanks

I must say I think your explanation of A: is eloquent and it resonates with my own conclusions (I just need a little more practice to express myself after being a hermit for so long ).

I think I struggle with B: however. I agree with your concept, but like my communication, I feel I don't know how to express myself in my life. I'm thinking I haven't found my 'niche' yet so therefore I'm exploring other perspectives.

But I am pleased to have received your response!

Zeraph & asaris: I entirely agree with you on B: , I think anyone will only do the best they can in any given moment and in thier life, but we all live in systems and are surrounded by people who seem to want to inflict their will or perspective on you. For some people they have a faith or religion that enables them to justify what they do and why they do it, and for the most part, it allows them to operate within these societies as a compromise type setup.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, can I get an expansion on B:, something more like 'How do we cope with the bit in the middle' according to your beliefs and perspectives?

(Please note I am a Rookie, your patience would greatly be appreciated )


___________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

asaris

Well, I'm a Christian, so you can probably infer most of what I think about the middle (and the End ) from that. But more generally, I think it's important to be part of a (non-virtual) community with practices, and to participate in those practices in a non-ironic manner. I'll try and remember what I mean by practices once I finish my comps tomorrow.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Zeraph

For me, the middle, this time on Earth is a transitionary stage in our development. What was before, or what is next I don't know. I think our actions have consequences (reason, importance) and it is up to the individual to percieve what consequences he or she desires. You will need to find your own moral code, and your own reason for living. These are difficult accomplishments, and will likely stay in flux.

The world is a mirror. If you hurt someone, you hurt yourself. This is very abstract, and is difficult to understand. But know that to channel hate or anger will always leave a mark, like the fat that clogs your arteries. We all contribute to the way the world is in small parts that add up to a big picture. The whole is greater than the parts. In many senses we are one, if people just realized this think of what we could accomplish.

Perception is wild, it can change, it will change. Philosophy is slippery, things can and do have many meanings. Don't ever dismiss anything completely. Don't ever accept anything completely (yes, even this!)

Moderation in everthing (even moderation!)

Never take anything too seriously, even yourself.

The need for power usually stems from greed, a greed for permanence. NOTHING is permanent. Learn to love, and let go. Do not become attatcheted. But balance this, do not become too distant either. It is an amazining ability to have unconditional love (meaning you can let go and still love.)

That's it for now, I hope this helps you. Peace.

Seeker

asaris: thanks, that did help . I do know quite a bit about the Christian faith so I assume I can infer. I would love some futher discussion about your statement "and to participate in those practices in a non-ironic manner", I'm curious when you have the time .
P.S. I have recently within the last year started to develop some friendships and associations around my community, took guts to get 'out there' but it seems to be working even though they see me as a bit of an enigma because I am so different in my thoughts, opinions, way of life etc...

Zeraph: Beautiful! I love your expansion, thank you so much. It entails much of how I think but this really hit home for me:
I think this is where I faulter, I am so there and I'm not quite sure where to put my feet (so to speak). I've always had something firm to believe so without my 'blind' faith to keep me comfortable, I really feel as if I'm a bit lost. So thats a big YES on the help side. Thanking you again

I'm still up for some other perspectives, any takers?

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

frogza

I don't think we can know ourselves until we have have visited our limits. I'm not just talking about extreme sports, though I think that for some they would help. What do you do when you're completely alone? What do you do in the midst of large crowd? Are your morals dictated by the surveillance of those in authority, the people you find yourself with or are they determined by something else? What is you comfort zone?

I believe that I know myself, at least today. Tomorrow may bring knowledge, joy, bitterness and experience that will be woven into who I am, and it may change me somewhat. Therefore, to know one's self is a constant awareness, something that is difficult to do while simply seeking ease and contentment.

Noroku

A. "Know Thyself". My personal belief would be that it is impossible to know thyself completely until your life is over. You must experience the whole in order to know the whole. This of course would require an afterlife of some sort or a last minute revelation to really be obtainable. I do however believe one can know how they are at a given moment. In my experience we all have ideals, we try to live by then, but undoubtable fail (at least I do, and it's my guess everyone does). By learning from those failures you gain a better understanding of yourself, thus going back to the original question.

B. What we do in the middle... I would personally say that is all that matters. It must come from an internal strive. I would like to believe that the purpose is to advance our race (humans) as a whole to better the world. As this can come in many forms, and be interpreted many ways it all comes back to choice. I know people who fall under the belief that you should strive for what brings pleasure/gratification as it's the natural reward for following your path in life.


All in all, I hope I gave you an insight at least, instead of just raising more questions.

Seeker

Hi frogza and Noroku. Thanks for your input
On my good days, I like to believe in creationism and purpose, and I feel ok to deal with day to day in this manner. But I also know it is something I *like* to believe in. It can frustrate me at times when I know that it is probably impossible to understand the reason for our existance *for sure*.

During a time when I faced many personal challenges I was searching for meaning and understanding and was feeling really frustrated that I couldn't see any logical reasons for the way I was feeling and why. I couldn't even place it within the broad frameworks of creation and purpose so I was forced into a corner until I came up with something just to stop my head spinning. It was this;

Life is not a meaning
It is an experience
There are no guarantees
There is no security
Nothing to rely upon
But the experience itself

Even when I'm having a good day, and I can see hope and purpose for us as a race, and when it warms my heart to see the faith in creation and purpose perspectives, I can't ignore the fact that I believe this is more certain for me than anything else.

What are your thoughts?

Can I also ask, how do people who come from the evolutionary perspective deal with 'the middle bit'? What's important to you?

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

cellophanedeity

I've been struggling with finding a sense of self lately, so it's good to know other people are thinking about it as well.

I agree with this. I figure that if there is a meaning to life I don't know it and am probably missing the point. I've accepted that all I know is my experience and my thoughts. I suppose I am all that I know and feel and nothing more.

I have accepted that evolution is how we've become homo sapiens, and I have no need or want for a God in my life. So instead of following what a God or a Pope or a devine authority suggests, I just try to be as good as I can, by my own standards, and I figure that will take me as far as I need.

As for what's important to me, I try to make sure I preserve the health of planet Earth, I try hard to be kind and good, I find a partner to love and wish for others to do the same. Family, good will, charity, perserverence, and love is what is important to me. Just because I believe in evolution doesn't make me that much different from those who follow the Christian faith. I just don't have a God or a codebook, and I don't feel guilty when I go against what the "devine authority" says.

NotMVH

We are able to define and thus know ourselves however we please. I certainly don't see myself as the interpretation of others but as I define and design. If I have the conviction of faith to not falter these virtues, they will be true as long as I define them as such.

Augi, I understand your point of veiw but have you considered how dynamic existance realy is. Static concepts like complete, wholeness and external security only apply as perceptive ideals and can not be authentic unless internaly perceived as such.

What to do with life? What you choose. I have accepted who I am biologicly and instead of denying my desires and pleasures, I work to embrace them.

Zeraph

Eh? I believe in the evolutionary bit, what difference does that make? Or do you mean those who believe everything is determined purely biologically, that is, when we die, that's it, ka-put?

abaya

A: All I know is that I constantly switch off between Being and Becoming... (isn't this Being called Dasein in German? from a famous philosopher). Sometimes I am at rest, sometimes I must move forward... but other than that, I don't know if I can say that I know myself fully, or that it's necessary to do so beyond a certain point.

B: I have always been fascinated with the idea of pilgrimage, even if not a religious one. I like the idea of being on a long journey with few belongings and someone to share the experience with... and an end in sight. So that is what I aim to do in the "in-between," for now.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Seeker

Yep, sorry Zeraph, the biological bit, the 'we are an accident and there is no purpose' type of thinking. If this were all just because it *is* and nothing more. How does one live with this?

cellophanedeity & NotMVH; have addressed this a little for me, thanks!

cellophanedeity; it's just as nice to know there is *definately* another out there like me struggling with finding a sense of self and place. I'm pleased to meet you

NotMVH, do you have any morals that you temper this with? Otherwise I'm picturing people doing whatever makes them feel good and chaos reigning the world (I'm asking out of interest, not judgment )

abaya; love your outlook! A: Being and Becoming and switching off I can so relate , and B: Nice , I can see myself using this analogy - thankyou.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

NotMVH

I certainly do have morals. By indulging myself in the pleasures I can find, I don't mean to insinuate I am a raving addict, bashing peoples brains out and murdering and pillaging as I see fit. I find no pleasure in hurting people, I abstain from drugs and don't drink excessivly.

It has come about that many people find it ill to embrace the material. I find great pleasure and joy in many subtleties of being alive. I find that which I own and posses shapes a great part of how I live and how I feel, the decisions I make. Instead of denying myself and my greed and desire, I think it is powerfull medicine to embrace that I am selfish and I am greedy. I want to have more: more women, more sportcars, more fine clothes and cigars, more money. I have not yet attained what I desire from life, having the clarity to know where I want to go inspires me to keep working towards that end everyday.

roachboy

i think "know thyself" was inscribed over the doorway through which you would pass if you were consulting the oracle at delphi.
so it was a threshold abjuration--the oracle operated at a remove from convetional rationality, relaying messages across this (implicit) divide that usually seemed to be in code--so the inscription could mean "know what you are asking for" or "know why you are asking"....given that, "know thyself" would obtain at the moment prior to a leap into the unknown.

there is another take on this inscription of course, but it seems to come from a much later period, a christian period, and to have the effects of erasing the oracle of delphi as a specific site involving a specific type of activity on the one hand, and of positing a kind of existential project of self-knowledge that only really makes sense if you assume that the self is unchanging across time, that it is endowed with an essence, that is has a soul.

if you do not assume that the "i" or ego has an essence, then it follows that you cannot treat it as an object in the world, which would mean then that it cannot be known in the way an object might (an x that bears a series of predicates that must be present for the object ot be itself and not something else--an essence). instead, self-knowledge becomes a kind of ongoing project involving reflexivity--an open-ended interrogation that would not result in an accomplished Knowledge....what this reflexive project entails is a function of the schema of the "ego" that one brings to bear a priori--which would determine the extent to which one could seperate the self from the social-historical contexts in whcih it operates, for example.

birth death in-between: a thoroughly christian conception of the priorities of the matter--this life, the in-between, is epiphenomenon--the real drama involves the soul which is cast into a body, goes through a series of adventures, and goes out again, back where it came from, to begin the Real Adventure in some Afterlife.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Seeker

NotMVH; that's made it much clearer - thanks. I have no trouble accepting your indulgences, I have somewhat started to indulge myself in the material side of life. I've got toys and interests like this forum, a new group of female friends (my friends always were guys and ultimately wouldn't hang around for too long...), my playstation, my ipod, a new car because I liked it, etc... these things are 'fun'! I had trouble finding fun for many years - lived a 'shaker' type life. I think we have needs other than just the basics. Enjoy!

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

Seeker

Ah, a much better description to what I was asking - this has enlightened me and this was why I found Zeraphs post so interesting... it helped me to understand why I was asking the question, nice!

If the Afterlife is the Real Adventure then why would we waste time playing around here? Sorry, I'm not understanding?

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

Hain

Was lost from the philosophy boards for a bit...
I want to go back to your question, Seeker, about how do we cope with the intermediary phase. My way to go through life is that I will never truly die. In either memory or through my actions I have already affected the years to come in hopefully some beneficiary way. One good deed can change someone else that day and thenceforth affect everyone else down their lines.

And I happen to agree with NotMVH, that which makes us human is that which we should be embracing instead of creating it as a taboo, which is why we can never really know our selves until we experience it. I too do not use drugs because that is a path that I don't find interesting and wasteful to my own being. Same with alcohol, I won't drink as an adult. Mainly because I find fire much more interesting than watching alcohol wasted for inebriation.

EDIT: in case someone thought the loop-hole, I also am against senseless violence and murder of others. In fact, if you are hurting or using another person in a way that they are not aware of, that's wrong on every level of my book. I have my limits to my acceptance and virtue, however. I have my side of illness, as some in here might remember my first thread: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=82233. I still believe in these things, and they are definite in my mind.

__________________

////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

abaya

Seeker, glad my outlook is relevant to yours. I found an interesting, if not a bit esoteric, website on Heidegger's Dasein (Being-there)... maybe some of you would like to look... I have always been interested in the idea but didn't have the proper philosophical training to delve very deeply: http://members.tripod.com/~jonmills/Dasein.htm

I liked this bit from that website: "For Heidegger, authenticity is a uniquely temporal structure and a process of unfolding possibility. It is a state of being that is active, congruent, contemplative, dynamic, and teleological--an agency burgeoning with quiescent potentiality (Guignon, 1984, 1993). As such, authenticity is the process of becoming one's possibilities; and by nature it is idiosyncratic and uniquely subjective."

Becoming one's possibilities... as part of the pilgrimage... or perhaps, that is the end goal of the pilgrimage?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Seeker

Ooooh, I'm lovin' that! Blown away abaya! (warm hugs and appreciation! - disregard the hugs if you are not into that).

Sometimes, if I use the journey analogy... I feel the path is endless, and why are there so many set up along the path, not walking it?, and I drag my sore and sorry feet... by this stage I wonder why am I walking, should I just 'pull over'?, and where was it I was going?

Although not a specific destination, authenticity can provide purpose, now to just align the rest of the world around me so I can spend the time walking in this light without the pressure to conform and act in accordance with a blind and unmeaningful life! (Light-hearted humour directed mainly at myself about my perceived position at present)

Thankyou all for your responses, I'm always curious on this subject so if anyone else has any input I'm always keeping an eye out .

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

TawG

not knowing oneself is the beginning of defeat. Knowing oneself is the framwork of victory. (failure/accomplishment, whatever you want to call it).

questone

I don't think we can know ourselves until we have have visited our limits. I'm not just talking about extreme sports, though I think that for some they would help. What do you do when you're completely alone? What do you do in the midst of large crowd? Are your morals dictated by the surveillance of those in authority, the people you find yourself with or are they determined by something else? What is you comfort zone?

Seeker

Yet, not knowing oneself is only perceived as defeat by people who may know something of themselves... Ultimately, ignorance is bliss for those that don't question, and sometimes that ignorance is envied for those that do question.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

Hain

^ Exactly, because once you learn something about yourself, the most you can do is work to change it. However, you can never truly rid yourself of what is at your heart for I believe that we always remain all the people we've been.

__________________

////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

ranger

sorry if this is overly simplistic. (if you are looking for something deeper... don't look here. ask Augi.)

A. you are you. you know what you like and what you dislike. you know what you want. you know what you need. that's you.

B. get what you want. get what you need. if you can't, you don't need it or want it badly enough.


sorry if this is depressing.

__________________
there are three ways to do things: the right way, the wrong way, and my way, which is the wrong way faster.