What would it take for you to not beleive in god - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

daking · 10-22-2004, 03:49 PM

I think one of the striking differences between an agnostic and a believer is that an agnostic will conclude that god exists (read believe in god) if certain facts present themselves. Like some huge dude comes down from the sky shooting lightening bolts, or we all get telleported to eden, or like the apocolapse comes and demons start coming out the ground etc.

However what would it take for a believer to stop believing. Isnt the whole point of faith is that you believe despite what evidence is presented to you? If so how far would you trust your faith ? Like those guys in logans run trusted that one would goto heaven but in effect they were all being exterminated, the evidence was there that they were all dying but they still trusted their faith.

Anyway, yea what would it take for you not to belivee.

Coppertop · 10-22-2004, 04:29 PM

http://www.losingmyreligion.com/

Not me, but it might provide some insight.

irateplatypus · 10-22-2004, 08:31 PM

this sounds way off the map, but...

if we were to contact multiple alien civilizations, not finding one among them who had a concept of God. i would either have to discard much of what i believe or try to reason a way to synthesize this new knowledge with prior firm convictions.

there was once a time when people believed you couldn't be a Christian and still believe that the earth revolved around the sun. since then, that dogma has been discarded and we're left the realization that heliocentrism has absolutely nothing to do with a faith in Christ. i believe such a widening of horizons in religion is healthy, distilling it into the essential truth without man-made baggage. so, if such a discovery about alien life was ever made... it'd be fascinating to see how a worldview change as fundamental as that would play out in religion.

MSD · 10-22-2004, 09:54 PM

I looked at what I had been told for my whole life, looked at what was going on in the world around me and had gone on throughout history, and decided that the most logical conclusion is that what I had been told about God was wrong.

I still technically believe in God, but my interpretation of God is so abstract that some people tell me I might has well be an atheist.

Mr Zen · 10-23-2004, 12:32 AM

Logic... Rationality...

You know those crazy things that we associate with intelligence.

daking · 10-23-2004, 02:36 AM

Some nice answers. Unfortunately i dont think weve had one yet from a 'hard core' beleiver, i wonder what it would take for a moderately evangelical or moderately fundementalist to stop beleiving.

If ofcourse those terms arent mutually exclusive

.

Fibrosa · 10-23-2004, 04:52 AM

I've debated with a few and they seem dead set in their beliefs. One that I was debating with, said that if there were errors in the bible, they would disbelieve.

So I showed some errors and he proceeded to go to absurd lengths by employing bizarre mental gymnastics in order to make the errors 'not' be errors.

In short, they believe because they want to, not because they've been convinced or think it's logically necessary.

asaris · 10-23-2004, 08:00 AM

It would have to be something absolutely intellectually compelling -- a foolproof argument against his existence. Of course, the rationality of faith aside, it's not really a fair comparison. The existence of God can, in theory, be proven, if only by his appearing, but it's next to impossible to prove the non-existence of a thing. I wonder how many agnostics/atheists would change their mind if they were given an argument for God's existence just as compelling as the arguments they think should be changing our minds.

CoachAlan · 10-23-2004, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaris

I wonder how many agnostics/atheists would change their mind if they were given an argument for God's existence just as compelling as the arguments they think should be changing our minds.

Why don't you ask some missionaries. I'm sure they'd be able to tell you pretty accurately how many people's minds they change. Of course, one could argue over how compelling their arguments actually are.

irateplatypus · 10-23-2004, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daking

Some nice answers. Unfortunately i dont think weve had one yet from a 'hard core' beleiver, i wonder what it would take for a moderately evangelical or moderately fundementalist to stop beleiving.

If ofcourse those terms arent mutually exclusive

.

i'm sorry you didn't receive the response you thought you might get... but i'm close to as hard-core a believer as you'll find.

i have a problem with the argument that disbelief is warranted by a lack of logical proof all by itself. i think it's somewhat vain to think that because the concept of God doesn't fit into your reason, then he must not exist. if history teaches us one thing, it's that human reasoning has limits... very severe and costly limits. why do we deny the existence of something that, by definition, must be bigger than our minds on the grounds that our intellectual faculties cannot verify existence?

now i'm not suggesting that our logical/rational processes are bad and should be ignored... just that i feel they're sometimes given too much credit in solving problems that are beyond their scope. you may doubt the existence of God based on your logical/rational understanding, but don't kid yourself into thinking that somehow you or anyone else has disproved the existence of God... logic cannot extend itself with confidence into that realm.

theFez · 10-23-2004, 03:09 PM

catholic school

daking · 10-23-2004, 08:51 PM

Quote:

i'm sorry you didn't receive the response you thought you might get... but i'm close to as hard-core a believer as you'll find.

i have a problem with the argument that disbelief is warranted by a lack of logical proof all by itself. i think it's somewhat vain to think that because the concept of God doesn't fit into your reason, then he must not exist. if history teaches us one thing, it's that human reasoning has limits... very severe and costly limits. why do we deny the existence of something that, by definition, must be bigger than our minds on the grounds that our intellectual faculties cannot verify existence?

now i'm not suggesting that our logical/rational processes are bad and should be ignored... just that i feel they're sometimes given too much credit in solving problems that are beyond their scope. you may doubt the existence of God based on your logical/rational understanding, but don't kid yourself into thinking that somehow you or anyone else has disproved the existence of God... logic cannot extend itself with confidence into that realm.

Hey I agree with you alot here, you seem a very reasonable believer. If only everyone else was as openminded as you. Im also sorry i didnt pick up on your response earlier, as it was an interesting point.

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if we were to contact multiple alien civilizations, not finding one among them who had a concept of God. i would either have to discard much of what i believe or try to reason a way to synthesize this new knowledge with prior firm convictions.

I would argue that a concept of god is a natural part of the evolution of any thinking species. Both a thinking evolution and literal one. This is kind of going off topic here as we are not really debating the existence or not of god, but rather what it takes for someone to believe/ not believe. I will say this tho, whilst i agree with your points regarding disproof. I am content to consider that as there are societial and biological reasons for a beleif in divine power and no supporting evience for such power; The natural conclusion is that beleif in god is meerly a symptom rather than evidence in it self.

Anyway enough rambling back on topic.

You state you would beleive if multiple alien species were discovered that had no concept of god. Based on my suggestion above ill take the liberty of extended your suggestion to alien species that are sufficiently advanced and have rejected the idea of God for many years(millenia?).

So thats kind of fair enough, but isnt this a case of redefining the goal posts considering contempory knowledge. For instance it used to be all life started on earth and life elsewhere was ruled out by Genesis. However now well informed scholars like yourself realise there is a very real chance that bacterium life may be found on mars. This imo would disprove much of what the major religions offer. So the goal posts shift and now you talk about advanced alien civilisations. But say we find them , do your goal posts shift again?

I think you hint to it here:

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or try to reason a way to synthesize this new knowledge with prior firm convictions.

MSD · 10-23-2004, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daking

Some nice answers. Unfortunately i dont think weve had one yet from a 'hard core' beleiver, i wonder what it would take for a moderately evangelical or moderately fundementalist to stop beleiving.

If ofcourse those terms arent mutually exclusive

.

I used to be pretty hard core. I had considered becoming a priest instead of doing something else with my life. Maybe something in my brain rewired itself, maybe it was an epiphany, but one day I looked at what I had always assumed to be the absolute, indisputable truth, and none of it made sense anymore.

Suave · 10-23-2004, 10:50 PM

There is no way to prove that there is no God/afterlife/whatever else you want to bring up, so basically, there is no way you can make me stop believing in my current state of mind. It's important to point out that beliefs such as these are affected by many things though, and saying "what it would take" to make one stop believing, or start believing, is similar to the other thread postulating what one would or would not die for; there is no point in pursuing the question as it is unanswerable until the circumstances present themselves. Also, agnostics don't need proof of a God, they just have an open mind about the possibilities after death.

Mr. Zen, your snide comments provide an amusing paradox. While an atheist may think that "logic" and "rationality" would lead anyone to dispell any belief in a God, the faithful would argue the exact opposite, many for the same reason. I ask you this though; whether or not you think it is logical to believe in an afterlife, what is your rationale for not believing in one? It certainly requires no energy or extra effort on your part to keep an open mind.

Mr Zen · 10-23-2004, 11:31 PM

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Mr. Zen, your snide comments provide an amusing paradox. While an atheist may think that "logic" and "rationality" would lead anyone to dispel any belief in a God, the faithful would argue the exact opposite, many for the same reason. I ask you this though; whether or not you think it is logical to believe in an afterlife, what is your rationale for not believing in one? It certainly requires no energy or extra effort on your part to keep an open mind.

Ah ha! I've tricked you. While I do verbate the condescension of an atheist, I am, in fact, agnostic about the existence of god. This is for the same reasons as you put forth. I'm not so far gone with myself that I can justify completely ruling out the existence of a god, logically that doesn't make sense. One cannot refute the possibility of an omni everything being because there is no way to prove a negative without giving an infinitum of examples. All it takes is for one of those examples to turn out to be false and my argument is disproved.

On the other hand, I'll not likely turn to any of the Abrahamic religions because of the simple fact that there are way to many contradictory concepts in their respective texts. Plus, it's my opinion that no god would purport to give us freedom of thought and action, and also tell us to rely purely on faith in doctrine rather than using rational thinking to come to a conclusion about the nature of the universe ourselve.

If god wants me to believe, why doesn't he make me believe, or better yet, show up and convince me himself? When that happens, I'll believe. But there's no way I'm just going to take somebody's word for it that "this is how it happened." Personally, I think, that that would piss god off more than anything, and no one wants to do that.

Suave · 10-24-2004, 08:53 AM

I was wondering why someone with "Zen" in their name would come off as an atheist.

Mr Zen · 10-24-2004, 01:56 PM

I am one with the universe and all of my reasoning is perfect and good...

NegativeNine · 10-24-2004, 02:03 PM

For me to completely stop believing, it would take God telling me he doesn't exist. erm... that doesn't work out very well

martinguerre · 10-24-2004, 07:51 PM

it would take quite a bit. my belief in God is grounded in my experience of love, mercy, and peace. it all three were to be wiped from the face of the earth, i might be at a point of reconsideration.

mo42 · 10-24-2004, 08:07 PM

In order for me to stop believing, another religion could be proved. If Hel and Odin started running around fighting the Ragnarok or whatever, I might convert to Norse Mythology.

Other than that, I'd probably have to unlearn what I know or have like major memory loss or something.

wnker85 · 10-24-2004, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Zen

If god wants me to believe, why doesn't he make me believe, or better yet, show up and convince me himself? When that happens, I'll believe. But there's no way I'm just going to take somebody's word for it that "this is how it happened." Personally, I think, that that would piss god off more than anything, and no one wants to do that.

Isn’t that why they call it believing and not knowing.

As for me to stop beleiving. hmm....
I guess i would have to die and nothing would happen.

Willravel · 10-24-2004, 08:44 PM

The following is totally and 100% factual. It contains personal information. Viewer discression is reccomended.

I was born the highest level of believer. I was born to a father that was raised in a small California town and attended Lutheran church weekly or more. His pastor told him he would make a wonderful pastor some day. His parents were very simple nice people. My mother was raised in a loosely religious home. They met in college, and got married. They started attending a very nice Lutheran Church in my home town. They became very active in the church, devoting their skills to God via the church. I was born.

Now my dad was a talented landscaper, and my mom was a talented piano teacher. We attended church regularly, and both of my parents would read the bible to me before I went to sleep every night...at 7pm. When I turned 5, just after my little bro was born, my dad made the huge decision to leave his landscaping buisness (that he owned and that was doing very very well) and move us to St. Louis so he could attend Concordia Seminary. He was going to study to become a pastor. We packed. I said goodbye to my gf (I know I was 5, I bloomed early). We left.

Seminary...no... St. Louis was a culture shock. My home town had a lot of asian people. St. Loius had about 3...and they were more filipino (pacific islander), so they wern't technically asian. I also got to meet a lot more black people, a situation I am much better for. I made friends pretty fast, but I still had trouble fitting in. Every night our family would help dad with his studies. We attended a Lutheran's Lutheran church there. I knew more about tht bible than most of the pastors. I had the Luther's small Chatichism memorized word for word. I was just starting to actually understand God, blooming in my mental abilities so to speak. I did okay in school, but I was bored. My main abilitie were in music (thanks to piano lessons since before I could speak), and religion. At about the age of 8 my knowledge of God started to grow beyond simple memorization of facts. I met a really good pastor; one of the ones that honestly cares mroe about the people he serves than the particulars of God. He pulled people in with his great sense of humor and had a great sense of what religion should mean to people. He was the head of our bible school class after the first church service.

After my dad graduated, he was called (or chosen by a church). We moved to a land that time forgot. A small german settled community welcomed us. We went to check out the church. It looked like a bingo hall from the outside. Just a big building with a parking lot. Only one small cross on the outside, and a sign that was hidden by bushes. The congregation was made up entirely of grandparents. We got settled and our goal came to try and help the congregation to grow, and to become more diverse. My dad and I bought some lumber and buildt a huge cross to put on the side of the building. The irony of God's followers building a giant cross out of wood for Him later dawned on me...but back to the story.

It slowly became apparent that our congregation had a systemic infection. There were underlying feelings of anger and hostility. The lovely grandparents turned out to be very much racist and intolerant. When we started to bring people that were asian, black, latino, indian, etc. they treated them terribly. Eventually they turned on us. Suddenly God's followers had beecome vicious beasts. We tried to fix the problem, but it was impossible. We took a call to another curch, and shortly after we left the church we left broke apart.

I was pretty pissed at God for a while...but I slowly realized that God was not in that church. I realized that God wasn't connected to organized religion as I had been told. I still go to church pretty regularly. I am not a beliver in organized religion, but I am a firm believer in God. I know it sounds sappy, but I know he's there.

People can argue that God is a fabrication. They can argue that God doesn't fit in with logic, or science, or sanity...I don't care. That isn't relevent to me. I am a follower of Jesus' teachings. I find that what He said gives life a little more meaning, and it makes me happy.

In addition to Jesus, I am also a follwer of the teachings of the Buddha, and of the Tao. As that is a completly different argument or conversation - depending on how you feel about it - I will leave that as it is.

Now that I'm done rambling, let's get to the question at hand. BTW, darking, that's one hell of a question. I was reading through TFP aimlessly when your question made me sit back and think for a while. As you can see from above, I am about as die hard a christian as there are out there. So what would it take to undermine an experience that has been a foundation of who I am? There in lies the amswer. As God has been a foundation of who I am, it would take something resetting me...like a reboot of my mind, in order to brake my belief in God. What could reboot my mind? That's the question I've been pondering.

1) A fundamental shift in the world around me. If there were a major and sudden poilitical shift in the world, such as America being attacked with nuclear weapons by an ally, could make me question how he could allow such a thing. If the government shifted to an obvious totalitarian rule, would be another example.
2) A fundamental shift in what I think God is. If Shiva were to appear in front of me right now and explain how Christianity is based on a great man, but not a God. Than after that, Shiva (or some God from another religion) were to conclusively prove to me that God was a creation of man, and that he/she was able to show me his/her power that is far beyond my understanding.
3) A fundamental shift in science. If some great leap in science was able to explain that the human mind has the power to actually created God, then I would have nothing to believe in.

It's okay to worry about the existence of God. It's normal for humans to question beliefs. What you have to ask yourself is: Does God make my life better, or worse? If the answer is worse, let it go. I'm sure that God does not want to be a burden to you. Continue a life where you try to be good and moral. If the answer is better, enjoy your relationship with God. The creator of the universe loves you. You can't top that!

FoolThemAll · 10-24-2004, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NegativeNine

For me to completely stop believing, it would take God telling me he doesn't exist. erm... that doesn't work out very well

Damnit, that's what I wanted to say.

Mr Zen · 10-24-2004, 10:04 PM

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1) A fundamental shift in the world around me. If there were a major and sudden poilitical shift in the world, such as America being attacked with nuclear weapons by an ally, could make me question how he could allow such a thing. If the government shifted to an obvious totalitarian rule, would be another example.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Do you think that god sat up one day and decided that America would be for his chosen people and that they would be granted the glory that is democracy? What did all the other people do to piss him off so bad that they get to be forcebly repressed by their governments (and there are totalitarian governments that have a xian population in the majority). What was it that made god not want people to have democracy before the 1800s? And apperently the Japanese did something totally messed up to bring god's rath upon them, I mean two nukes?!?! Shit, someone pissed him off big time I guess.

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2) A fundamental shift in what I think God is. If Shiva were to appear in front of me right now and explain how Christianity is based on a great man, but not a God. Than after that, Shiva (or some God from another religion) were to conclusively prove to me that God was a creation of man, and that he/she was able to show me his/her power that is far beyond my understanding.

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In order for me to stop believing, another religion could be proved. If Hel and Odin started running around fighting the Ragnarok or whatever, I might convert to Norse Mythology.

So you require proof of the xian god but not that of another? This just shows how much of xian life and faith is based on indoctrination.

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For me to completely stop believing, it would take God telling me he doesn't exist. erm... that doesn't work out very well

Damnit, that's what I wanted to say.

See above without the other gods part.

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If the answer is better, enjoy your relationship with God. The creator of the universe loves you. You can't top that!

God can keep his grubby hands off me, thank you very much.

Willravel · 10-25-2004, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Zen

This doesn't make any sense to me. Do you think that god sat up one day and decided that America would be for his chosen people and that they would be granted the glory that is democracy? What did all the other people do to piss him off so bad that they get to be forcebly repressed by their governments (and there are totalitarian governments that have a xian population in the majority). What was it that made god not want people to have democracy before the 1800s? And apperently the Japanese did something totally messed up to bring god's rath upon them, I mean two nukes?!?! Shit, someone pissed him off big time I guess.

You drew the most odd and random conclusion from what I said. CLEARY America is not God's chosen people. WHAT I WAS SAYING is that something that removed me from my lifes normalicy and that killed milions of people, a lot of which I know, would make me question God. I would not be questioning why God was mad at us, that's ludacris. I did not write this to be debated on God. There are plenty of threads out there for that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Zen

So you require proof of the xian god but not that of another? This just shows how much of xian life and faith is based on indoctrination.

For someone who is clearly not based in faith, you sure do have a holyer-then-thou attitude. I have physical proof of God. I am alive today against all rules of science. I beleive that other forces were at work, as NO doctor could even begin to account for my recovery. Just because you can spew out anti judio-christian buzz words like 'indoctrination', you think you have a firm grasp on reality, and I don't. Let me put it this way. Lets say you were born in a country that has no connections to western beliefs, politics, science, or religion. You are taught science that is different, not necessarily wrong, but different. You understand the world around you better beacuse of the way you were taoguth about the world around you. Then a westerner comes to you and ridicules you for your beleifs. How is that fair? How is you ridiculing me going to solve anything? Does it make you feel better? Who put you in charge of logic? Give me a break.

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Originally Posted by Mr Zen

See above without the other gods part.

God can keep his grubby hands off me, thank you very much.

Clearly you were a part of group a.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

If the answer is worse, let it go. I'm sure that God does not want to be a burden to you. Continue a life where you try to be good and moral.

Just because you are in group a, doesn't mean there aren't people glad to be in group b. I never said ANYONE had to believe in God, the least of whome you. If you don't believe God exists, how does he have grubby hands?> It was a dissrespectful remark. Let's remember that the rules of TFP require people to act over 18.

daking · 10-25-2004, 08:39 AM

Yea i think we have to be really careful with this thread. I dont want it to be on the existance or not of god, but rather what makes someone dis-believe. This is a different question as to what makes people beleive, and i think this is more interesting. It hopefully examines the limit (if there is one) of faith and imo can say alot about character and world outlook.

wnker85 · 10-25-2004, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daking

Yea i think we have to be really careful with this thread. I dont want it to be on the existance or not of god, but rather what makes someone dis-believe. This is a different question as to what makes people beleive, and i think this is more interesting. It hopefully examines the limit (if there is one) of faith and imo can say alot about character and world outlook.

So true.

but, Mr Zen for someone who clains to be agnostic it seems that you want to be the reason for someone to stop beleiving. And, for those who beleive it will take something a whole lot greater than man to do it.

disclaimer: this is all IMO

Willravel · 10-25-2004, 11:03 AM

wnker85, that's exactly my response to mr zen. In a lot of ways agnitism is a non answer. It neither accepts God, nor does it rule Him out. Mr Zen seems to strongly believe that God does not exist (that's an atheist, not an agnostic, btw).
I would suggest to him, since he does not wich to follow christianity, go for what his name means. Zen Buddhism is a wonderful belief system. He might elarn that the ultimate goal of Zen Buddhism is nirvana, which is what I consider God.

martinguerre · 10-25-2004, 01:03 PM

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So you require proof of the xian god but not that of another? This just shows how much of xian life and faith is based on indoctrination.

Mr Zen, your use of smilies doesn't exactly add to your arguement. Just a general tip.

Willravel already responded quite well, so i wouldn't try to add to his words. But honestly, i still feel compeled to say: give it a rest. Indoctrination, my ass. As a convert to Christianity, i think i can honestly say that indoctrination was about the last thing that got me in the door. Blanket assumptions tend to make arguements look stupider than they otherwise might.

Debate here is a hit and miss affair much of the time...but when you get in a discussion where there is complexity, nuance and respect, please....try not to f$ck it up.

Mr Zen · 10-25-2004, 04:26 PM

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Zen Buddhism is a wonderful belief system. He might elarn that the ultimate goal of Zen Buddhism is nirvana, which is what I consider God.

I'm aware of what Zen refers too.

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Mr Zen seems to strongly believe that God does not exist (that's an atheist, not an agnostic, btw).

Christian god. That I don't believe in your god doesn't make me an atheist. I see the piles of contradictions that are in the christian tradition and that's why I don't believe in your god. I believe we can't have the answers to everything and therefore I can't tell you that there is no god. But at the same time I can't tell you that there is one either.

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but, Mr Zen for someone who clains to be agnostic it seems that you want to be the reason for someone to stop beleiving.

Not at all, I'm all for people having religious beliefs, but if your not going to back up your comments with more thought then, "For me to completely stop believing, it would take God telling me he doesn't exist," in a philosophy forum... I don't know why you would even bother making the post in the first place. If god would have to come down and tell you that he doesn't exist, then all you have is indoctrination to blame. It means that your mind is closed to any other possibility, how are you supposed to have a discussion about religion if you are going to be close-minded about the entire discussion.

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You drew the most odd and random conclusion from what I said. CLEARY America is not God's chosen people. WHAT I WAS SAYING is that something that removed me from my lifes normalicy and that killed milions of people, a lot of which I know, would make me question God. I would not be questioning why God was mad at us, that's ludacris. I did not write this to be debated on God. There are plenty of threads out there for that.

I'm not trying to debate you on god, I simply point out a flaw in your logic. There are thousands of people being killed everyday. I realise that this isn't up into the millions mark that you pointed to, but it's still a hell of a lot of people being killed for no good reason. I guess I read more into the statement than you intended, for that I apologise, I simply focused on this part, "If there were a major and sudden poilitical shift in the world, such as America being attacked with nuclear weapons by an ally," when talking about America being gods friend.

BTW you didn't mention anything about the nuclear weapons that hit Japan.

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Just because you are in group a, doesn't mean there aren't people glad to be in group b. I never said ANYONE had to believe in God, the least of whome you. If you don't believe God exists, how does he have grubby hands?> It was a dissrespectful remark. Let's remember that the rules of TFP require people to act over 18.

If you took offence to the "grubby hands" remark, again, I apologise. I sometimes get sick of the pretentiousness that some christians spew and it tends to come out in a less than positive way. I'll tell you one thing though, the "God loves you" comment pisses more atheists and agnostics off than you'd think, it comes across extremely condesending.

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But honestly, i still feel compeled to say: give it a rest. Indoctrination, my ass. As a convert to Christianity, i think i can honestly say that indoctrination was about the last thing that got me in the door. Blanket assumptions tend to make arguements look stupider than they otherwise might.

Notice that I never mentioned you. You gave some actual reasoning for your beliefs.

You people need to relax. I never once attacked your conclusions, I only tried to point out flaws in your premises (arguments). That is the way of philosophy, if you take issue with the conclusion of an argument, you must attack the premises. We are in the philosophy section of the forum are we not?

Edit: I forgot to mention that I refuse to apologise to anyone that can't be bothered to back up their conclusion with an argument of any kind (even a half-assed one). Simply posting some general crap with nothing to back it up is either a cop-out or spam, either of which is not worthy of anyone's respect. Especially in a philosophy forum.

Willravel · 10-25-2004, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Zen

Christian god. That I don't believe in your god doesn't make me an atheist. I see the piles of contradictions that are in the christian tradition and that's why I don't believe in your god. I believe we can't have the answers to everything and therefore I can't tell you that there is no god. But at the same time I can't tell you that there is one either.

That'd be a good argument if you had previously spedcified witch God you didn't believe in. In actuality you only used the word God in general, as it means a 'being worshiped by monotheists'. You always simply referred to Him as God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Zen

Not at all, I'm all for people having religious beliefs, but if your not going to back up your comments with more thought then, "For me to completely stop believing, it would take God telling me he doesn't exist," in a philosophy forum... I don't know why you would even bother making the post in the first place. If god would have to come down and tell you that he doesn't exist, then all you have is indoctrination to blame. It means that your mind is closed to any other possibility, how are you supposed to have a discussion about religion if you are going to be close-minded about the entire discussion.

Philosophy isn't always about logic. Sometimes it is about how you feel. As for being closed minded, how do you think you were being open minded when you said "So you require proof of the xian god but not that of another? This just shows how much of xian life and faith is based on indoctrination." Yes it would take seeing another God for me for my faith in God to be disturbed. AS I STATED ABOVE: "I have physical proof of God. I am alive today against all rules of science. I beleive that other forces were at work, as NO doctor could even begin to account for my recovery." For me God is no leap of faith as there is scientific evidence of unknown forces in my healing. Okay? No stretch of the imagination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Zen

I'm not trying to debate you on god, I simply point out a flaw in your logic. There are thousands of people being killed everyday. I realise that this isn't up into the millions mark that you pointed to, but it's still a hell of a lot of people being killed for no good reason. I guess I read more into the statement than you intended, for that I apologise, I simply focused on this part, "If there were a major and sudden poilitical shift in the world, such as America being attacked with nuclear weapons by an ally," when talking about America being gods friend.

There is a clear and obvious difference between seeing bombs hitting people you'll never know on the news and your home town being decimated by foreign bombs and you losing a lot of your friends and your security. This is what I was referring to. I know I would probably become very depressed if this were to take place. In my depressions, and in my process of acceptance, I would have to question why I wasn't prepared for this. I would be questioning very simple and fundamental knowlege of the world around me. One such fundamental belief I might question is my faith in God. I can't say that I would lose my faith in that situation, but it's possible. Who are you to argue with that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Zen

If you took offence to the "grubby hands" remark, again, I apologise. I sometimes get sick of the pretentiousness that some christians spew and it tends to come out in a less than positive way. I'll tell you one thing though, the "God loves you" comment pisses more atheists and agnostics off than you'd think, it comes across extremely condesending.

The way I presented that choice was not condecending. I simply said that you have a choice in life to believe if it makes you happier, or not to believe if God would be a burden to you. The God Loves you comment was meant for a group of people you clearly do not belong to. Therefore, you have no right to be offended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Zen

You people need to relax. I never once attacked your conclusions, I only tried to point out flaws in your premises (arguments). That is the way of philosophy, if you take issue with the conclusion of an argument, you must attack the premises. We are in the philosophy section of the forum are we not?

One rthing you have to emember about this is that these are NOT arguments. This particular thread is intended for sharing of opinions, not debate. Some philosophical threads are intended to be debated, this just isn't one of them. I would havge thought that was obvious, but it aparently wasn't. Just to repeat, this thread is not here so you can argue down other peoples opinions, it is here so that we can share what we think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Zen

Edit: I forgot to mention that I refuse to apologise to anyone that can't be bothered to back up their conclusion with an argument of any kind (even a half-assed one). Simply posting some general crap with nothing to back it up is either a cop-out or spam, either of which is not worthy of anyone's respect. Especially in a philosophy forum.

While I do not require your respect, I do ask that you refrain from attacking people. Nothing on this page was 'general crap with nothing to back it up'. This is the last time I will ask you to refrain from attacking people. This thread is not here for you to try and rationalize every little thing that is said. This particular thread is here simply for sharing something that can be very personal.

wnker85 · 10-25-2004, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Zen

Not at all, I'm all for people having religious beliefs, but if your not going to back up your comments with more thought then, "For me to completely stop believing, it would take God telling me he doesn't exist," in a philosophy forum... I don't know why you would even bother making the post in the first place. If god would have to come down and tell you that he doesn't exist, then all you have is indoctrination to blame. It means that your mind is closed to any other possibility, how are you supposed to have a discussion about religion if you are going to be close-minded about the entire discussion.

I agree with will here (which doesn’t seem to be the case in the political forum

), but you asked for some logic. Take this with a grain of salt because I am in college, but as I get closer and closer to my goal to be a doctor, the less we truly know about how we work. The cells that make up our bodies are so complex there is no way in my mind that it happened by chance.
The ways DNA replicates and repairs itself show that something set it up to do so. I won’t go into a whole list of reasons why this thread isn’t about that. Maybe in tilted knowledge

edit : rephrase

wnker85 · 10-25-2004, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

While I do not require your respect, I do ask that you refrain from attacking people. Nothing on this page was 'general crap with nothing to back it up'. This is the last time I will ask you to refrain from attacking people. This thread is not here for you to try and rationalize every little thing that is said. This particular thread is here simply for sharing something that can be very personal.

no one could say it better

mo42 · 10-25-2004, 08:06 PM

My faith is based more on personal experience and knowledge than Biblical stories and stuff. Several times in my life I prayed for things that were very important to me, and against all odds, the things that I prayed for happened.

Plus, the world is just so amazing. I mean, it's been here for a while, but stuff like DNA and biochemistry is just really awe-inspiring. Eukaryotes have not been around for a very long time, and yet the diversity (including different numbers of chromosomes with very different functions), the specificity of organs... everything seems like something is guiding how things work on this world.

Is there a chance that I'm wrong? Yes. But in order for me to stop believing, something massive would have to happen, like Greek or Norse gods running about. I mean, what would you expect would make me stop believing?

martinguerre · 10-25-2004, 09:08 PM

" Not at all, I'm all for people having religious beliefs, but if your not going to back up your comments with more thought then, "For me to completely stop believing, it would take God telling me he doesn't exist," in a philosophy forum... I don't know why you would even bother making the post in the first place. If god would have to come down and tell you that he doesn't exist, then all you have is indoctrination to blame. It means that your mind is closed to any other possibility, how are you supposed to have a discussion about religion if you are going to be close-minded about the entire discussion."

I have to laugh...the question *did* ask what it would take... The answer i saw was not a proof of indocrination...it was a simple paradox. Before jumping down someone's throat and claiming they've been indoctrinated, try imagining what they might be trying to say.

"if you took offence to the "grubby hands" remark, again, I apologise. I sometimes get sick of the pretentiousness that some christians spew and it tends to come out in a less than positive way."

You know, because i once met a irishman who looked at me funny, sometimes i punch irish people. Makes a hell of a lot of sense, doesn't it?

Mr Zen · 10-25-2004, 09:39 PM

Quote:

That'd be a good argument if you had previously specified which God you didn't believe in. In actuallity you only used the word God in general, as it means a 'being worshiped by monotheists'. You always simply referred to Him as God.

I actually did refer to the Abrahamic religions earlier.

Quote:

Philosophy isn't always about logic. Sometimes it is about how you feel. As for being closed minded, how do you think you were being open minded when you said "So you require proof of the xian god but not that of another? This just shows how much of xian life and faith is based on indoctrination." Yes it would take seeing another God for me for my faith in God to be disturbed. AS I STATED ABOVE: "I have physical proof of God. I am alive today against all rules of science. I beleive that other forces were at work, as NO doctor could even begin to account for my recovery." For me God is no leap of faith as there is scientific evidence of unknown forces in my healing. Okay? No stretch of the imagination.

First, philosophy is not "how you feel." Philosophy refers to the study of knowledge. Knowledge being (as accepted by the philosophy profession) justified belief.

The comments that I made were to specific individuals. These individuals did not have any arguments to back up their position. I even said that I would accept a weak or even partial argument. If all you're doing is stating your conclusion, it is not philosophy, it not being part of a dicussion forum. Its spam.

I am sure that you believe your faith to be well founded and I'm not going to try and change your mind about it. In fact I never did try to change your mind about it. Looking back, I had meant to put your thoughts on Shiva and what not with some other thoughts of mine, I guess I got a little ahead of myself.

Quote:

There is a clear and obvious difference between seeing bombs hitting people you'll never know on the news and your home town being decimated by foreign bombs and you losing a lot of your friends and your security. This is what I was referring to. I know I would probably become very depressed if this were to take place. In my depressions, and in my process of acceptance, I would have to question why I wasn't prepared for this. I would be questioning very simple and fundamental knowlege of the world around me. One such fundamental belief I might question is my faith in God. I can't say that I would lose my faith in that situation, but it's possible. Who are you to argue with that?

I would argue that, as many pro-lifers do, a human life is still a human life. Reguardless of who they are, they are still people and worthy of our comapassion. Why would the suffering of people close to you affect you that much more than all the people dieing in Iraq right now... or the Sudan... or any one of those places?

Quote:

The way I presented that choice was not condecending. I simply said that you have a choice in life to believe if it makes you happier, or not to believe if God would be a burden to you. The God Loves you comment was meant for a group of people you clearly do not belong to. Therefore, you have no right to be offended.

Like I said, I misinterpreted it wrong. I already apologised so I see no reason for you do draw the point out further.

Quote:

One rthing you have to emember about this is that these are NOT arguments. This particular thread is intended for sharing of opinions, not debate. Some philosophical threads are intended to be debated, this just isn't one of them. I would havge thought that was obvious, but it aparently wasn't. Just to repeat, this thread is not here so you can argue down other peoples opinions, it is here so that we can share what we think.

Like I said, all I ask for is a reason, any reason. Its not sharing opinions when your answer is, "I will never doubt my opinion of god. Ever. Nothing could ever change that." That's not even the topic of the thread. The topic was, what could change your opinion of god?

Quote:

While I do not require your respect, I do ask that you refrain from attacking people. Nothing on this page was 'general crap with nothing to back it up'. This is the last time I will ask you to refrain from attacking people. This thread is not here for you to try and rationalize every little thing that is said. This particular thread is here simply for sharing something that can be very personal.

You can threaten me all you want, I apologised already. If you can't look within your good, Christian, heart and find forgiveness, that's between you and your god. It has nothing to do with me.

Quote:

My faith is based more on personal experience and knowledge than Biblical stories and stuff. Several times in my life I prayed for things that were very important to me, and against all odds, the things that I prayed for happened.

Plus, the world is just so amazing. I mean, it's been here for a while, but stuff like DNA and biochemistry is just really awe-inspiring. Eukaryotes have not been around for a very long time, and yet the diversity (including different numbers of chromosomes with very different functions), the specificity of organs... everything seems like something is guiding how things work on this world.

Is there a chance that I'm wrong? Yes. But in order for me to stop believing, something massive would have to happen, like Greek or Norse gods running about. I mean, what would you expect would make me stop believing?

There you go, there's a quallity answer, deserving of being posted in a philosophy thread.

Also, its not like I don't have an open mind. I'm studying religion (and philosophy) in university for jebus' sake. Again, like I said, I'm not here trying to convert anyone from their religion. I think religion is a great thing. It can inspire great deeds and great heroicism. I only ask (in a forum that practically preaches that your posts should be meaningful and of decent quality) that if your going to say something at least give a reason for what you say.

Finally, if I overly offended anyone, I apologise. I did not mean to cause such outrage from anyone. I forget sometimes that religion is the absolute truth for some people. For me, it is simply another piece in a the big, bin of metaphysics.

Willravel · 10-25-2004, 11:09 PM

I get the distinct impression you are trying to get the last word. Go ahead and post after this post so we can end this. Too off topic for my blood. I was simply defending my beliefs. I didn't want it to become a thread swlllowing debate. Apologies daking.

neutone · 10-26-2004, 12:12 AM

We are the products of editing, rather than of authorship.
George Wald (b. 1906), U.S. biochemist.

adam · 10-28-2004, 11:45 AM

I was an agnostic for most of my life. One night, working through some 12-step stuff (specifically about accepting a higher power), the Goddess came visiting and my life-long depression just... lifted. My wife, who was there at the time, said the change in my affect was astounding.

Is she "real"? Or just my brain's way of imagining my connection to the world? Or something else? I don't know. I don't really care too much, although I think she is a part of me and vice-versa.

But I stick with the Goddess because she has a way of helping me think differently about the world, and for me, it makes all the difference. Your mileage may vary, etc.

Zeraph · 10-28-2004, 12:26 PM

"i wonder what it would take for a moderately evangelical or moderately fundementalist to stop beleiving."

When science has the power to genetically manipulate them to be more intelligent...

In all seriousness though, I believe in a God if that's what you want to call it, but I don't personify it. I don't see how it has anything to do with how I act or behave or think. A lot of people need to realize there's a big difference in believing in the divine versus believing in a religion, the two are not the same. And IMO religion is mostly left over controll mechanisms from history. I think a lot of people might be surprised at their religion's history.

Luckily, religion seems to be slowly making progress in what it should be, a group of people that have similiar philosophical beliefs and discuss and question their beliefs.

10-22-2004, 03:49 PM	#1 (permalink)
daking Tilted	What would it take for you to not beleive in god I think one of the striking differences between an agnostic and a believer is that an agnostic will conclude that god exists (read believe in god) if certain facts present themselves. Like some huge dude comes down from the sky shooting lightening bolts, or we all get telleported to eden, or like the apocolapse comes and demons start coming out the ground etc. However what would it take for a believer to stop believing. Isnt the whole point of faith is that you believe despite what evidence is presented to you? If so how far would you trust your faith ? Like those guys in logans run trusted that one would goto heaven but in effect they were all being exterminated, the evidence was there that they were all dying but they still trusted their faith. Anyway, yea what would it take for you not to belivee. Last edited by daking; 10-22-2004 at 03:53 PM..

10-22-2004, 08:31 PM	#3 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	this sounds way off the map, but... if we were to contact multiple alien civilizations, not finding one among them who had a concept of God. i would either have to discard much of what i believe or try to reason a way to synthesize this new knowledge with prior firm convictions. there was once a time when people believed you couldn't be a Christian and still believe that the earth revolved around the sun. since then, that dogma has been discarded and we're left the realization that heliocentrism has absolutely nothing to do with a faith in Christ. i believe such a widening of horizons in religion is healthy, distilling it into the essential truth without man-made baggage. so, if such a discovery about alien life was ever made... it'd be fascinating to see how a worldview change as fundamental as that would play out in religion. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

10-23-2004, 04:52 AM	#7 (permalink)
Fibrosa Insane	I've debated with a few and they seem dead set in their beliefs. One that I was debating with, said that if there were errors in the bible, they would disbelieve. So I showed some errors and he proceeded to go to absurd lengths by employing bizarre mental gymnastics in order to make the errors 'not' be errors. In short, they believe because they want to, not because they've been convinced or think it's logically necessary. __________________ D'oh!

10-23-2004, 08:00 AM	#8 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	It would have to be something absolutely intellectually compelling -- a foolproof argument against his existence. Of course, the rationality of faith aside, it's not really a fair comparison. The existence of God can, in theory, be proven, if only by his appearing, but it's next to impossible to prove the non-existence of a thing. I wonder how many agnostics/atheists would change their mind if they were given an argument for God's existence just as compelling as the arguments they think should be changing our minds. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

10-23-2004, 03:09 PM	#11 (permalink)
theFez Crazy Location: here and there	catholic school __________________ # chmod 111 /bin/Laden

10-22-2004, 04:29 PM	#2 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	http://www.losingmyreligion.com/ Not me, but it might provide some insight.

10-22-2004, 09:54 PM	#4 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	I looked at what I had been told for my whole life, looked at what was going on in the world around me and had gone on throughout history, and decided that the most logical conclusion is that what I had been told about God was wrong. I still technically believe in God, but my interpretation of God is so abstract that some people tell me I might has well be an atheist.

10-23-2004, 12:32 AM	#5 (permalink)
Mr Zen Upright Location: Alberta, Canada	Logic... Rationality... You know those crazy things that we associate with intelligence.

10-23-2004, 02:36 AM	#6 (permalink)
daking Tilted	Some nice answers. Unfortunately i dont think weve had one yet from a 'hard core' beleiver, i wonder what it would take for a moderately evangelical or moderately fundementalist to stop beleiving. If ofcourse those terms arent mutually exclusive .

10-23-2004, 10:50 PM	#14 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	There is no way to prove that there is no God/afterlife/whatever else you want to bring up, so basically, there is no way you can make me stop believing in my current state of mind. It's important to point out that beliefs such as these are affected by many things though, and saying "what it would take" to make one stop believing, or start believing, is similar to the other thread postulating what one would or would not die for; there is no point in pursuing the question as it is unanswerable until the circumstances present themselves. Also, agnostics don't need proof of a God, they just have an open mind about the possibilities after death. Mr. Zen, your snide comments provide an amusing paradox. While an atheist may think that "logic" and "rationality" would lead anyone to dispell any belief in a God, the faithful would argue the exact opposite, many for the same reason. I ask you this though; whether or not you think it is logical to believe in an afterlife, what is your rationale for not believing in one? It certainly requires no energy or extra effort on your part to keep an open mind. Last edited by Suave; 10-23-2004 at 10:54 PM..

10-24-2004, 08:53 AM	#16 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	I was wondering why someone with "Zen" in their name would come off as an atheist.

10-24-2004, 01:56 PM	#17 (permalink)
Mr Zen Upright Location: Alberta, Canada	I am one with the universe and all of my reasoning is perfect and good... __________________ “Not even Satan would use customer service as a form of punishment” - Lucas ctrlaltdel-online.com

10-24-2004, 02:03 PM	#18 (permalink)
NegativeNine Tilted	For me to completely stop believing, it would take God telling me he doesn't exist. erm... that doesn't work out very well

10-24-2004, 07:51 PM	#19 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	it would take quite a bit. my belief in God is grounded in my experience of love, mercy, and peace. it all three were to be wiped from the face of the earth, i might be at a point of reconsideration.

10-24-2004, 08:07 PM	#20 (permalink)
mo42 Insane Location: California	In order for me to stop believing, another religion could be proved. If Hel and Odin started running around fighting the Ragnarok or whatever, I might convert to Norse Mythology. Other than that, I'd probably have to unlearn what I know or have like major memory loss or something. __________________ It's not getting what you want, it's wanting what you've got.

10-24-2004, 08:44 PM	#22 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The following is totally and 100% factual. It contains personal information. Viewer discression is reccomended. I was born the highest level of believer. I was born to a father that was raised in a small California town and attended Lutheran church weekly or more. His pastor told him he would make a wonderful pastor some day. His parents were very simple nice people. My mother was raised in a loosely religious home. They met in college, and got married. They started attending a very nice Lutheran Church in my home town. They became very active in the church, devoting their skills to God via the church. I was born. Now my dad was a talented landscaper, and my mom was a talented piano teacher. We attended church regularly, and both of my parents would read the bible to me before I went to sleep every night...at 7pm. When I turned 5, just after my little bro was born, my dad made the huge decision to leave his landscaping buisness (that he owned and that was doing very very well) and move us to St. Louis so he could attend Concordia Seminary. He was going to study to become a pastor. We packed. I said goodbye to my gf (I know I was 5, I bloomed early). We left. Seminary...no... St. Louis was a culture shock. My home town had a lot of asian people. St. Loius had about 3...and they were more filipino (pacific islander), so they wern't technically asian. I also got to meet a lot more black people, a situation I am much better for. I made friends pretty fast, but I still had trouble fitting in. Every night our family would help dad with his studies. We attended a Lutheran's Lutheran church there. I knew more about tht bible than most of the pastors. I had the Luther's small Chatichism memorized word for word. I was just starting to actually understand God, blooming in my mental abilities so to speak. I did okay in school, but I was bored. My main abilitie were in music (thanks to piano lessons since before I could speak), and religion. At about the age of 8 my knowledge of God started to grow beyond simple memorization of facts. I met a really good pastor; one of the ones that honestly cares mroe about the people he serves than the particulars of God. He pulled people in with his great sense of humor and had a great sense of what religion should mean to people. He was the head of our bible school class after the first church service. After my dad graduated, he was called (or chosen by a church). We moved to a land that time forgot. A small german settled community welcomed us. We went to check out the church. It looked like a bingo hall from the outside. Just a big building with a parking lot. Only one small cross on the outside, and a sign that was hidden by bushes. The congregation was made up entirely of grandparents. We got settled and our goal came to try and help the congregation to grow, and to become more diverse. My dad and I bought some lumber and buildt a huge cross to put on the side of the building. The irony of God's followers building a giant cross out of wood for Him later dawned on me...but back to the story. It slowly became apparent that our congregation had a systemic infection. There were underlying feelings of anger and hostility. The lovely grandparents turned out to be very much racist and intolerant. When we started to bring people that were asian, black, latino, indian, etc. they treated them terribly. Eventually they turned on us. Suddenly God's followers had beecome vicious beasts. We tried to fix the problem, but it was impossible. We took a call to another curch, and shortly after we left the church we left broke apart. I was pretty pissed at God for a while...but I slowly realized that God was not in that church. I realized that God wasn't connected to organized religion as I had been told. I still go to church pretty regularly. I am not a beliver in organized religion, but I am a firm believer in God. I know it sounds sappy, but I know he's there. People can argue that God is a fabrication. They can argue that God doesn't fit in with logic, or science, or sanity...I don't care. That isn't relevent to me. I am a follower of Jesus' teachings. I find that what He said gives life a little more meaning, and it makes me happy. In addition to Jesus, I am also a follwer of the teachings of the Buddha, and of the Tao. As that is a completly different argument or conversation - depending on how you feel about it - I will leave that as it is. Now that I'm done rambling, let's get to the question at hand. BTW, darking, that's one hell of a question. I was reading through TFP aimlessly when your question made me sit back and think for a while. As you can see from above, I am about as die hard a christian as there are out there. So what would it take to undermine an experience that has been a foundation of who I am? There in lies the amswer. As God has been a foundation of who I am, it would take something resetting me...like a reboot of my mind, in order to brake my belief in God. What could reboot my mind? That's the question I've been pondering. 1) A fundamental shift in the world around me. If there were a major and sudden poilitical shift in the world, such as America being attacked with nuclear weapons by an ally, could make me question how he could allow such a thing. If the government shifted to an obvious totalitarian rule, would be another example. 2) A fundamental shift in what I think God is. If Shiva were to appear in front of me right now and explain how Christianity is based on a great man, but not a God. Than after that, Shiva (or some God from another religion) were to conclusively prove to me that God was a creation of man, and that he/she was able to show me his/her power that is far beyond my understanding. 3) A fundamental shift in science. If some great leap in science was able to explain that the human mind has the power to actually created God, then I would have nothing to believe in. It's okay to worry about the existence of God. It's normal for humans to question beliefs. What you have to ask yourself is: Does God make my life better, or worse? If the answer is worse, let it go. I'm sure that God does not want to be a burden to you. Continue a life where you try to be good and moral. If the answer is better, enjoy your relationship with God. The creator of the universe loves you. You can't top that!

10-25-2004, 08:39 AM	#26 (permalink)
daking Tilted	Yea i think we have to be really careful with this thread. I dont want it to be on the existance or not of god, but rather what makes someone dis-believe. This is a different question as to what makes people beleive, and i think this is more interesting. It hopefully examines the limit (if there is one) of faith and imo can say alot about character and world outlook.

10-25-2004, 11:03 AM	#28 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	wnker85, that's exactly my response to mr zen. In a lot of ways agnitism is a non answer. It neither accepts God, nor does it rule Him out. Mr Zen seems to strongly believe that God does not exist (that's an atheist, not an agnostic, btw). I would suggest to him, since he does not wich to follow christianity, go for what his name means. Zen Buddhism is a wonderful belief system. He might elarn that the ultimate goal of Zen Buddhism is nirvana, which is what I consider God.

10-25-2004, 08:06 PM	#34 (permalink)
mo42 Insane Location: California	My faith is based more on personal experience and knowledge than Biblical stories and stuff. Several times in my life I prayed for things that were very important to me, and against all odds, the things that I prayed for happened. Plus, the world is just so amazing. I mean, it's been here for a while, but stuff like DNA and biochemistry is just really awe-inspiring. Eukaryotes have not been around for a very long time, and yet the diversity (including different numbers of chromosomes with very different functions), the specificity of organs... everything seems like something is guiding how things work on this world. Is there a chance that I'm wrong? Yes. But in order for me to stop believing, something massive would have to happen, like Greek or Norse gods running about. I mean, what would you expect would make me stop believing? __________________ It's not getting what you want, it's wanting what you've got.

10-25-2004, 09:08 PM	#35 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	" Not at all, I'm all for people having religious beliefs, but if your not going to back up your comments with more thought then, "For me to completely stop believing, it would take God telling me he doesn't exist," in a philosophy forum... I don't know why you would even bother making the post in the first place. If god would have to come down and tell you that he doesn't exist, then all you have is indoctrination to blame. It means that your mind is closed to any other possibility, how are you supposed to have a discussion about religion if you are going to be close-minded about the entire discussion." I have to laugh...the question did ask what it would take... The answer i saw was not a proof of indocrination...it was a simple paradox. Before jumping down someone's throat and claiming they've been indoctrinated, try imagining what they might be trying to say. "if you took offence to the "grubby hands" remark, again, I apologise. I sometimes get sick of the pretentiousness that some christians spew and it tends to come out in a less than positive way." You know, because i once met a irishman who looked at me funny, sometimes i punch irish people. Makes a hell of a lot of sense, doesn't it?

10-25-2004, 11:09 PM	#37 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I get the distinct impression you are trying to get the last word. Go ahead and post after this post so we can end this. Too off topic for my blood. I was simply defending my beliefs. I didn't want it to become a thread swlllowing debate. Apologies daking.

10-26-2004, 12:12 AM	#38 (permalink)
neutone Tilted	We are the products of editing, rather than of authorship. George Wald (b. 1906), U.S. biochemist.

10-28-2004, 11:45 AM	#39 (permalink)
adam Insane	I was an agnostic for most of my life. One night, working through some 12-step stuff (specifically about accepting a higher power), the Goddess came visiting and my life-long depression just... lifted. My wife, who was there at the time, said the change in my affect was astounding. Is she "real"? Or just my brain's way of imagining my connection to the world? Or something else? I don't know. I don't really care too much, although I think she is a part of me and vice-versa. But I stick with the Goddess because she has a way of helping me think differently about the world, and for me, it makes all the difference. Your mileage may vary, etc.

10-28-2004, 12:26 PM	#40 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	"i wonder what it would take for a moderately evangelical or moderately fundementalist to stop beleiving." When science has the power to genetically manipulate them to be more intelligent... In all seriousness though, I believe in a God if that's what you want to call it, but I don't personify it. I don't see how it has anything to do with how I act or behave or think. A lot of people need to realize there's a big difference in believing in the divine versus believing in a religion, the two are not the same. And IMO religion is mostly left over controll mechanisms from history. I think a lot of people might be surprised at their religion's history. Luckily, religion seems to be slowly making progress in what it should be, a group of people that have similiar philosophical beliefs and discuss and question their beliefs.