CoachAlan

My grandmother is not a nice person. No need to delve in to it here. For purposes of this example, take my word for it. She is also not religious. So, my own agnosticism/atheism being irrelevant to the conversation, here's my question to you religious types out there:

Right now, by my understanding of how sin works, she's doomed to hell when she dies because of 80 years of unclean living. Imagine if some missionaries were to visit her today, she were to have a breakthrough, and wholeheartedly accept Jesus Christ as her savior, ask for forgiveness, and be born again. Is that enough to get a ticket in to heaven? Can a lifetime of iniquity be atoned in a moment? What if she were to die the next day, would she still get in because God knew she truly did whatever-it-is you have to do to be forgiven?

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"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
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maleficent

God forgives all if you ask for forgiveness and are truly sorry.

Not sure what other religions, other than Catholocism, have the sacrament of Extreme Unction (Last Rights) but basically - on a person's death bed, the priest hears their sins, and absolves them of all their sins, and gives them a free ticket to heaven.

A few years back, my dad has some complications with an angioplasty and wasn't expected to survive it, a priest was called in, and last rights were administered. When he did recover, his thoughts were- -ooooh - clean slate, I can go back to being a bastard again

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Ustwo

It would only 'count' if she were truely sorry and a true believer, but yes if she was both, then she would get a ticket into heaven.

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ravenradiodj

The Baptists have a "once saved, always saved" concept that basically says once you're baptized, you're going to heaven, regardless of what you do afterwards. This operates under the assumption that if you truly do accept Jesus as your savoir with all your heart, mind, and soul, then any sins you may commit after such a life-altering experience will be inadvertent: that noone who's known Jesus's love could ever intentionally sin again. It's a nice idea, probably looks like a strong safety net from their vantage point. Me, I'm a Pagan: I'll screw up, and work through the consequences, and just keep learning as I go......

Lebell

Standard Christian belief is that if you are truly repentant, it matters not the hour.

Consider the parable of the workers in the vineyard or the story of the repentant thief on the cross.

People often ask God for Justice when in truth God is merciful (which is good for us).

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Ustwo

I see so after you die, you are stuck with eternal damnation because the first .0001% of your existance you fucked up?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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martinguerre

*nods

i think there's some fetishization of the last minute conversion...but the real distortion is when the "last minute save" is compared to the person who is supposedly hell bound because they had works and no faith.

honestly, i consider it the greatest miracle of my life that God's grace has outrun my rebellion. i don't know the precision of the salvation economy...but i have great trust that the mercy is wide and deep.

FatherTed

If she REALLY was sorry and was really asking for forgivness, then Yes, in most Christian religions that would be enough.
Obviously, this is not something she can fake - say she is sorry when she isn't.

aRs3N1c42

What I believe Lebell was saying is that people as God for justice often not thinking through to the logical conclusion of justice which would ultimately include them and their own imperfections. Thankfully, even when we ask for justice, God gives mercy instead, if we are willing to accept it.

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CoachAlan

So when proselytisers come to my house hoping to convert me, I guess it's OK to tell them that I'm going to continue my non-believing ways for a while. As long as I make the switch before I die, it looks like I'll be good to go.

Of course, the way things are going now, I think it would have to be a pretty jacked up God to cast me in to the pit. By all accounts I'm a good person, I'm just not a believer. I do good works because they are good, not because I know Santa's watching. If that gets me cast in to hell, then He is a God I wouldn't want to hang out with anyway.

__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

Ustwo

Welcome to hell. Being a good person has nothing to do with it really. You would be a good person if you follow gods rules, which you would if you were a true beilever, but being a good person in itself isn't the issue.

So while agree with you it would take a pretty jacked up god to send you to hell, I've had the same thought, its not the issue.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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ravenradiodj

Well said, Ustwo, that's just further evidence of what a screwy belief system it is we're discussing here.

CoachAlan

Agreed, raven. It reminds me of the first time I went to Mardi Gras. There were a bunch of protesters at various intersections, letting us all know that we were doomed to hell. I had an epiphany that day...

The fact that it's held in New Orleans isn't what makes Mardi Gras so great. Mardi Gras could be held anywhere and it would still be a wonderful time. It's the people that make it special. All these countless thousands packed together like sardines, smiling, laughing, having a good time. The most common words heard on Bourbon Street are, "Pardon Me." It's really an incredible experience, and 99% of the people I encountered there were kindhearted people.

If I'm doomed to spend an eternity in hell with those people, I think we can make a good time of it.

__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

zen_tom

Damn - I detect a certain trolly element from you Coach, I mean, if you don't believe in the first place, why post the question? However, I have taken the bait, so here goes...

First of all, there is no heaven - at least not in the big white gated place full of angels. Jesus knew this, which is why he kept talking about a kingdom of "Heaven On Earth". Christians, by behaving pleasantly towards one another, are able to (as are all people and religions) create a real Heaven On Earth. This truth (discovered by various religious figures around the world) has brought civilisation to the human race.

Someone who gives of themselves, looses their ego and accepts life as it is, can enjoy every aspect of the world and grow themselves into a fulfilled, happy and noble person. This is what Christianity is really about, and it is why it still remains a powerfull force today. It is a practical, civilising force. Just don't get confused between the wisdom of Christianity and all the old mumbo-jumbo that's been attached (by Kings and Romans) to make it fit in with the mysticism, polytheism and paganism of conquered barbarians, and unruly mobs.

Yes, much of it is bollocks, but shouldn't it be obvious to anyone with any intelligence which bits!

CoachAlan

Once again, zen_tom, I like the way you think. And thank you for calling me to the carpet. While the situation with my grandma is true, I don't have much concern for whether she makes it in to heaven because I don't believe in heaven. My real objective, and it probably is considered trolling, was to point out some of the "bollocks" part. I just wasn't sure how to present it.

Anyway, I agree with you (as usual) that Christianity, and religion in general, can be a very positive social impetus so long as people don't get bogged down by splitting hairs. Splitting hairs myself is certainly not the best way to go about forwarding that impetus.

"Be the change you want to see in the world." Thanks, zen_tom, for reminding me that Gandhi had the right idea. Mods, you can close the thread if you wish, but I think a solid conversation has been started here.

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"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

zen_tom

I don't see anything wrong in posting a provocative question at all, and only mentioned the 'T' word in order to get a bit provocative myself.

Don't be too hard on your Grandma though, she may just have had a rough time of it. If enough people are stong enough to be nice to your grandma, you never know, she may actually get to heaven after-all.

And Coach, you are by far, too kind.

zen_tom

I was just thinking about this - is there a church that follows this doctrine? I mean, if there's baptists and catholics and pentecostals and seventh day adventists, how come there's no 'common-sense' church? Or is that the Anglican's - Honestly I don't know, however, I *would* be very interested in finding out. (Deciding on whether organised religion of any kind is something I agree with is an entirely different topic altogether)

ravenradiodj

There are about 300 different religious denominations calling themselves "Christians", so there's always a chance!

_______________________________________________________________________

Gimme that "old time" religion - PAGAN FOR LIFE!

CoachAlan

We can only hope. It's a nice thought, zen_tom. With the previous reformations, "radicals" have tried to add common sense to the church. Martin Luther was a notable example, though I don't think Lutheranism is the answer we're looking for.

What we need is another big reformer to set some things straight and to get Christians' eyes focused back on just being good people, instead of getting wrapped up in dogma.

__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

asaris

The problem is, according to the Christian teaching, that merely being a good person isn't good enough. We'd have to be perfect to make it into heaven on our own, and none of us is perfect.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

zen_tom

No, that is not the problem. That is not Christian teaching. That is your, flawed Christian teaching. What we are talking about is either finding or establishing a PROPER Christian religion without all the distorted hocus-pocus and ridiculous magic that has grown over, warped and perverted the true teachings of Chirst.

zen_tom

What is perfection anyway? It is not a meaningful concept.

asaris

What's your basis for "proper" Christian teaching?

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

zen_tom

I thought that had been made clear in the previous posts, but basically, it's the true meaning of Christianity, without any ghosts, magic or trickery.

DEI37

Buddy, that IS the ticket to Heaven. Yes, a lifetime of sin CAN be absolved just that quickly, provided that the person truly believes in Jesus Christ, and what was performed on the cross. It's the only way in. No priest can "save" a person, or anything of that nature. Good works are always a plus, but won't get you there. Being baptized doesn't solidify your place in Heaven after conversion, either. You can go to Heaven without being baptized. But, just because you're baptized doesn't mean you're going there, either.

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Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

Lebell

Exactly.

And I believe this is the real reason we should "Judge Not, Lest We Be Judged".

(Not to say that we don't need Justice, but that we need to be very careful for what we ask for.)

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Lebell

Well, that's why I ended up an Episcopalian.

It was a church which had a doctrine, but also emphasized that I was to think about what I personally believed.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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asaris

You misunderstand my question, zen_tom. What is your basis for distinguishing what is Christian and what is not Christian? And what do you mean by 'ghosts, magic, and trickery'? I don't believe in any of those either, and yet I doubt we share the same idea of what is Christian. If you think this would be better in a new thread, please, throw one up. This is interesting.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

zen_tom

OK asaris, I will - however, I'm just stopping by today, so it probably wont happen till tomorrow. Not sure yet how I'd put all this into a separate thread, but will have a go.

Mr Zen

In the immortal words of the Blizzard:

"All the funamentalists are saying that anyone that listens to Ozzy Osbourne music is going to hell. But I'll be there so we'll have a good time!"
- Ozzy Osbourne

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zen_tom

Thanks asaris, I have started up another thread (which I've tried to keep as neutral as possible) but will answer your question (less neutrally) in this one, assuming no-one else minds.

How to decide how Christian something is? Do I
a) wait for signs and portents to point me in the correct direction,
b) accept the guidance provided me in my childhood,
c) count the number of people who call themselves Christians, and compare the thing against the majority view,
or
d) think about how I interpret Christianity and compare that thing to my own personal interpretation?

a) Would be pretty good, depending on the signs provided, however, there is the possibility that I would, rather than receiving direct signals from God, be experiencing some form of mental episode.
b) How lucky I was to have been arbitrarily born into an oasis of truth!
c) When majorities, or large groups of people are involved, the truth can often be distorted by interested parties. See evidence provided by; Nixon, The Tobacco Industry, Wartime Propaganda etc
d) how do I know that my interpretation is correct, and not influenced by an unhealthy dose of a), b) or c)?

My point is, since there is no authority that can be trusted, so we are going to have to try and make judgments based on the world around us and decide what appears to be reasonable.

My experience of the world (I think) has been a pretty rounded one. I have in the past used devices a, b, c in order to help me decide on difficult questions, but I try to stick to d now wherever possible.

Magic, ghosts and trickery are provocative words that describe the things I both dislike and disbelieve about Christianity today.

I am happy to accept the wisdom that Christianity affords, but I find it difficult to accept the gradual attachment of supernatural ideas that has occurred over time in order to spice-up what is a genuinely wonderful philosophy, so as to make it more palatable to pagan and barbarian tribes, as well as a predominantly polytheistic Roman populace.

Miracles and other magics are great ways to persuade people that something special is going on, they are also great tools for describing an abstract thought or concept in terms understandable by your average peasant.

The notions of Saints and Angels and the deification of Mary are directly borrowed from the Polytheistic religions popular at the time of Jesus. For the Roman populace, a single, directly accessible God simply would not do.

The ideas of Heaven and Hell are distorted versions of Pagan and other primitive beliefs regarding the afterlife. Jesus' usage of these terms was metaphorical and describes the peace that can be achieved in one's personal, internal world, and He explains, teaches and demonstrates how this peace can be achieved.

So by magic and ghosts I mean the supernatural, the same supernatural sun, moon and spirit worship that is a mixture of ignorance, fear and the natural human tendency to try and explain the unexplainable. Trickery is the taking advantage of these tendencies by providing intricately woven, and mentally acceptable answers that contain 'hooks'. A hook being something that benefits the trickster in some way.

If you allow yourself to accept the truth based on reasoning a), b) or c), you become prone to these hooks. By adopting reasoning method d), maintaining a healthy level of doubt, and continuing to question everything you are presented, you are perhaps less prone, but certainly not immune to these things.

martinguerre

zen tom...read barth. intro to dogmatics is tough, but acessible. i think you'd really enjoy some of his arguements, hate a few more, and generally find it a worthwhile read.

One thing that i'll lift from Barth and Girard, is that that the texts and the revelation of God has the capacity to de-mythologize the situation. It can take away the authority of superstition, human particularity, and our personal willfullness. At it's best, the Gospel forces us out of our worldview, and makes it possible to escape our assumptions, hatreds, and limitations. The ressurection is the focal point to this...and what you might dismiss as ghosts or trickery...they view as the point at which it is made clear that God is not playing by our rules, and that to participate in God's realm, we must abandon our preconceived notions. To imagine a world where peace rules, there is enough love for everyone, where our rivalries are brought down, and the enemy becomes our friend...it would almost take a man rising from the dead to make you think that was possible.

zen_tom

Interesting...I've just taken a look on Amazon, searching for Barth and found Dogmatics in Outline In the meantime, any further thoughts are most welcome...

Coppertop

I find it interesting how anyone can speak with authority on the subject of who gets into heaven. How the hell would they know?

martinguerre

That's the one....i just mixed the title up slightly.