tecoyah

Actually, That is a fascinating point......

When looked at for what it really is, Someone who follows scripture above what is in the soul, would be following a false God. I can only imagine the debates this subject is likely to start, should get interesting.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

irateplatypus

Actually, That is an erroneous point......

if everyone listened to their "soul" (i'm not even sure what exactly you mean by this), and everyone has a soul... then everyone would be following their own voice of God. that sounds a whole lot more like idolatry than all in Christendom looking to the scriptures for divine wisdom and truth.

you're taking an issue that resides in a Christian framework and applying your pagan worldview to it. building a strawman from your view of scripture's role and super-imposing it on Christian doctrine.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

tecoyah

You are assuming that the scriptures (and thus the interpretation of god contained within) are the "true" essence of God. What if this god actually IS so arrrogant as to forbid the worship of any other interpretation of its persona, and the interpretation in the books is in error. Would this God then condemn all who follow the books to hell.
If we take this to the logical conclusion, the vast majority of humans are in for a heated afterlife, including most christians. There are far too many different takes on the "Word of God" for us feeble minded humans to pick the one that is "real". And as there are hundreds of sects within any one branch of any one religion, they are all worshipping a different version of God.
As far as the Pagan world view, you are correct, that is why they call it a worldview. It taints every aspect of my life. But as it is the path I have chosen at this point in my growth, it is the only way I can honestly question the world around me, that is not to say I cannot "understand" the views of others, and evolve my own worldview through personal growth.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

HammerHand

That sounds like a whole lot of tap-dancing to me.

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Thus endeth the lesson.

tecoyah

Please , show us the enormity of your experience in this matter, as Mine is obviously quite lacking. And although tap dancing is an interesting way to put my statements, perhaps you could be more exact, that I may understand your meaning.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

SecretMethod70

tecoyah, all (worthwhile) religion has some assumptions to make. Religion involves a lot of assumption based on what appears to be likely. As such, in the Christian perspective, it appears to be likely that the Bible is something whose creation was guided by the Holy Spirit in its writers. Now, that doesn't explain HOW one should read the Bible - to what degree of literalism and interpretation - but for a Christian it DOES explain how to view the Bible.

The Bible is not worshipped as a God, but rather, it contains God. Specifically, God's Word. So, yes, it is held with a high degree of reverence. People don't bow down to the Bible though. The Bible is not hung in churches alongside the cross. And the cross is only a symbol even - albeit a powerful one. So, if the cross is merely a symbol of what Christians believe, and it is hung in multiple places is many churches, then it would stand to reason that if the Bible itself were worshipped, it too would be hung at least as much as the cross if it were more than just a symbol of God. Instead, it is simply something that we believe gives insight into Who God is. Now, one could say "well, you don't KNOW that that's God's Word." No, we don't know in the describable sense that one knows 2+2=4, but likewise, we don't KNOW that Einstein's theory of relativity is fact. That's why it's called a theory still and not a law. We still do a ton of work based off of it, because much of what we observe points to this theory being at least mostly true. Likewise, Christians "know" that the Bible is God's Word because much of what we feel and observe points to this being true. The different between Christians simply lies in how we interpret this Word.

Just as an example, I recently learned of something called the Two Books - the outlook that God has revealed himself in two books - nature and the Bible: general revelation and special revelation respectively. With this view, it is impossible for the two to contradict each other, so one must learn to re-evaluate the way in which the Bible is interpreted. Then of course there are those who interpret the Bible in a much more stringent, literal sense. Both, however, recognize the importance of the Bible as at least one of the primary ways in which God is revealed to us. The fact that there is no material proof of this being the case is hardly any reason to not believe what one feels, or else we may as well simply abandon all faith since for all we know Satanism is the correct one. Faith is not based on what one knows in the material sense, but rather in the spiritual sense. And, in that sense, Christians know that the Bible is the Word of God.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

tecoyah

Thank you for the clarification, that makes alot of sense. Still my point was that platypus stated everyone listening to thier soul was worshipping an Idol, and due to the personal interpretation each of us place into the bible we are indeed doing the same thing. While I am quite familiar with the way in which chritians in general practice the faith (having been one for decades), I was bringing up the differences we all have in what "God" is to each of us.
As an example (rather overused and silly), I could never expect my wife to be subservient to myself, yet it is scripture that I do so. Thus I choose to interpret this aspect of the book as one mans addition to "the word", and not as the word of God. In doing so I have changed the book to fit my needs and personality, which has given God a different flaver to me than to someone who takes literally all scripture.
Taken in context this means I am not worshipping the same God as platypus, and am therefore following a false god in his eyes. It would actually make for as many Gods as there are believers, and as many idols as well.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Jesus Pimp

Because Christianity is made up like every other world religion and its followers can't agree on anything thus the many sects and splinter groups.

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amonkie

I think the ability for us to individually interpret the bible is a gift in disguise. Those seeking to have a grasp of just how BIG God is can look in Isaiah 6 and see " I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple."

When the bible is looked at in its entirety, myself and many friends I know view the bible as what they literally are in the New Testament- letters written to us through those appointed by God, with instructions, as well as a history and message for finding the ultimate fulfillment in life, for eternity. Yes, there are cases where verses contradict each other, but taking a string of words out of context is a very dangerous exercise, as it removes the reason those verses were uttered. For example, when you go back and look at some specific cases, you will see historical lifestyle issues that maybe no longer are an issue in our society are being addressed in those passges. The woman by the well who was of different ancestry than Jesus can be expanded into showing compassion to all of those who are different than us.

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qtpye4u84

They seem the same to me but catholic's have saints/christians dont.
christian's are not as old fashioned as catholic's cause christians are more laid back in my opinion ever seen seventh heaven right there is example of a christian,

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The QTpie

hannukah harry

sorry if i spelled that wrong. anyways, my question is why does it seem that people consider catholicism to be different than christianity? it seems like if you check out a personals site or whatever, it lists christianity and catholicism seperatly. but i know catholics consider themselves christian... so i don't get it...

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shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

Xenomorph

This issue's a stinker.

We Catholics consider ourselves Christian. Most Protestant Christians agree, although they show varying degrees of suspicion towards the concepts of big-t Tradition, the infallible interpretation of scripture by the Magisterium, church hierarchy, and all that. Most Catholics, conversely, view with disbelief the mostly Protestant claim that everyone can derive God's will from the Bible alone.

In practice, most serious Catholics follow the instruction they receive from their religious teachers over any interpretation of scripture that they themselves have come up with. The Bible is nebulous, the Catechism is straightforward. A lot of Protestants think that this is the dead wrong way to go about it and we must find for ourselves the answers and conclusions readily offered by Catholic doctrine. I can certainly understand that concern.

Some Protestant Christians, though, believe that Catholic teaching is so far removed from the message of Jesus that it can't be considered Christianity. Protestant churches that call themselves "Bible" or "Fundamentalist" are more likely to hold this position.

This once was a very pertinent political issue. The populace had to be convinced that their monarch, Catholic or Protestant, had the approval of God and the divine right of rulership. Protestant and Catholic rulers each had to undermine the legitimacy of their rivals as best they could...if the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon as described in Revelations and the Pope was the antichrist, then the blessing of the Church was damnation. Conversely, if the Catholic Church was actually founded by Jesus Christ and the process of apostolic succession ensures that the Pope can speak with the authority of St. Peter and that Catholic clergy are the only people on earth who can legitimately perform sacraments, then you may as well have not been a Christian if you weren't Catholic.

It isn't such a life and death issue now, and people on either side have a tough time thinking that their merciful, benevolent God could possibly reject his worshippers because they were in the wrong camp. Even in the past 15 or so years, Catholic and Lutheran leadership have come together and tied up several split hairs with joint declarations on the nature of salvation and such.

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Grancey

I was raised in the Catholic church, and I don't ever remember this being an issue.

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sapiens

I remember being approached by a religious pamphleteer back in college. He asked me if I was Christian. I said, "I'm Catholic." He said, "Is that Christian?" He had never heard of Catholicism. I was confused. I wanted to say, "You do realize that your religion likely splintered off Catholicism some time during the 16th century." (Or splintered off another group that splintered off Catholicism...)

ICER

I thought the biggest difference was that in the Christian faith, No man is more holy in the eyes of God, then the next. They are all equal.

In the Catholic faith. The are different level of holiness you can achieve. Even to the level of being the holiest man on earth (IE: the pope)

Or is that Roman Catholics?

__________________
What's the difference between congress and a penitentiary?
One is filled with tax evaders, blackmailers and threats to society.
The other is for housing prisoners.
~~David Letterman

asaris

Catholic usually means Roman Catholic (though I try to always use Roman Catholic to avoid confusion). There are certainly differences in doctrine between the protestant churches, the RCC, and the Orthodox church, but most people these days would consider RCCers to be Christian. However, it's by no means a dead issue, and so even people who do consider RCCers Christian, if they've been raised in a more conservative sect, they might still have the linguistic habit of dividing the Church into Christians and Catholics.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Charlatan

Protestant and Catholic is a better distinction than Catholic and Christian...

Catholics are Christians just as all the Protestant sects are as well...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

kutulu

My family is Catholic and my father went to a Baptist graduate school. One of the classes he was required to take was religion classes (Baptist of course). His instructor constantly went on on the Catholic Church, saying they aren't Christians and whatnot. Evenually my Dad told him off. He ended up getting a D in the course.

It's funny how they forget that.

Although I wouldn't call myself Catholic anymore (or anything else for that matter), the one thing I think the Church got right was that they don't look at the Bible as literal truth. Instead, they see it as parables that give you guidance in life. I guess that's why Catholics are less likely to have problems with evolution.

ergdork

kutulu -
I think you got it right. I would call myself Catholic, but probably not as strict-down-the-line. Like many American Catholics, I have some issues with Church doctrine with regards to the modern world.

ANYWAY, I went to Catholic school for K-7 and high school, and found all of my experience remarkably progressive. I was raised in the SF bay area, which may have also affected my experience, but just the same, Catholicism for me was always remarkably accepting (considering). I'm not going to defend the Catholic Church on a lot of the BIG ISSUES, but I think that they are a good organization that is in a very difficult situation. They are attempting to bridge many generations and cultures, and are suffering in it. They are also obviously suffering from the misdeeds of a portion of their clergy (both the people who acted and those who concealed). But I am reluctant to give up on them. I think they have shown they can grow (Vatican 2), and I'd like to see that.

Getting back to the original point, if you think about the word "Christian," it seems to me that the definition is "one who believes in Christ." Of course what that means is pretty wide open. :-)

Phew.. I talk too much

Lebell

"Catholic" means universal.

If you want to be specific, refer to "Roman" Catholics, because as an Episcopalean, I weekly proclaim that I am a member of "one, catholic faith".

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Blaspheme

I'm no expert on the subject, being non-religious myself. One thing I had always percieved as a fairly major difference, is that Catholics would revere and pray for the intercession of the various Saints, and from what I have seen the other Christian religions mostly ignore them or flat out disavow the concept of Sainthood.

Then again, maybe the other Christians pray to the Saints too and I just didn't know because I've never been taught the secret handshake. Anyone want to straighten me out on that issue if I'm wrong?

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Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
~Friedrich Nietzsche

Hain

I asked the difference when I was still religious... and it was we Roman Catholics have Saints. I asked "Why do I have to learn about saints?" My grandmother's explanation, "Because you do." And that became the explanation for every theological question I ever asked...

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Charlatan

This thread reminded me of Umberto Eco's famous MAC vs. DOS column...


As good as any to define the difference in simple terms.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

asaris

As far as I know (and I'm hardly an expert on all the various sects of Christianity), all Christians believe in saints; in fact, they all believe in the sainthood of all believers (even the RCCs). But the Catholics like to extend special, official recognition to a certain subset of those saints, whom they officially call 'saints'. Protestants merely have a number of historical figures they consider important (Augustine in the case of my denomination).

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Thermopyle

I'm baptised as a catholic and had my communion (spelling?) as a protestant nad consider myself as an athiest today. Only ignorant people are unaware of the mutual history of all christian fractions.

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Live life like you're gonna die, beacause you're gonna!

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Yakk

Saints are people that the R.C.C. believes made it into heaven. To prevent false positives, the R.C.C. requires alot of evidence (up to and including miracles). Or this is how I understood it.

The idea of praying through saints is that it can be easier to talk with someone who was merely a human. Less intimidating, ya know.

I do know the Anglicans have Saints, although not all of the ones the Catholics have. (when visiting London, they showed us the largest collection of medieval saint-icons. A good percentage of them had been destroyed during a time of Anglican fundamentalism.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

asaris

Yeah, 'praying to saints' is viewed (technically, at least) as being the same sort of thing as when you ask your friends to pray for you.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

martinguerre

charletan....as a loyal Mac user since forever, and a baptist....that excerpt has got to be the funniest damn thing i've seen all week.

i think it's coming to my Reformation Thought class tonight.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

flstf

On one of the first jobs I had as a draftsman my boss came up to me after a few weeks and asked "you're not a Catholic are you?". I told him I was raised as a Lutheran but really wasn't very religious at all now. He said "good, I didn't think you were one of those". That's the first time I even thought it mattered to anyone but apparently there are some Protestants to whom it does (in his case Baptist).

Mephisto2

I have never heard of anyone differentiating between "Catholic" and "Christian". This must be an American thing.

One could look at it several ways, but basically the differences between Catholics (usually meaning Roman Catholics) and Protestants (usually meaning those that do not recognize the Pontificate) is one of doctrine and interpretration. Another way of putting it would be that they are all different sects within the one religion.

It is analogous to the differences between the Sunni and Shi'te muslim "sects". They are both Islam, but have differences in opinions with regards to particular dogmatic issues. And then you have the smaller sects like Wahibists.

Indeed, I believe the Jewish faith has several sects or branches too, all the way from lapsed or "everyday" Jews to hardline haredi ultra-orthodox Jews.

Why is this an issue? Every faith has sects and Christianity is no different.


Mr Mephisto

Blaspheme

They were all originally derived from the same whole number?

Sorry to poke fun, but that particular word transposition had me laughing out loud. It instantly conjured up images of Islamic fractions and Christian fractions refusing to add up in new math. I know, I'm a bit odd. ITYM "faction."

In response to what someone else said about referring to Christianity and Catholocism as two seperate things, that does indeed seem to be an American trait. It probably has something to do with the fact that our Protestant founders didn't get along too well with the Pope.

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Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
~Friedrich Nietzsche

K-Wise

Exactly. I think a lot of it stems from ignorance. People consider Catholic seperate from "Christian" because believe it or not there are actually some people out there stupid enough to believe that Catholics worship The Virgin Mary. It's true. Got into a heated debate with an ex girlfriend of mine and her stupid friend who were convinced that Catholics worship Mary. Whats worse is her friends mother is Catholic and she still didn't know. She claimed her mother worships a small statue of the Virgin Mary every night

Thats what it is. I'd love to be harsh and say it's stupidity but it's just ignorance.

Asta!!

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Arroe

I was baptised Catholic, received the sacrament of Communion in the Catholic Church, went to Catholic School every Sunday for 2 hours for years, and last year I was finally Confirmed. I go to Mass every week with rare exception.

When I was a kid I didn't really enjoy going to church that much. Now I have really learned to be proud of being a Catholic, and while I still don't really enjoy sitting through 10:30 Mass as much as I would enjoy sleeping in on Sunday morning, I feel like I get something out of it.

I have a Rosary in my desk drawer, a pin of Saint Matthew (my name) my Grandmother gave me, and little remenants hanging on my shelf from my first Communion and my Confirmation. I am not a hardcore bible thumper... Catholics tend to be more reserved I have noticed. We are much more spiritual than other Christion faiths and less... "vocal" I guess you could say. We like people to join our faith, but we don't go knocking on peoples doors.

In all, I appreciate and like the Catholic Church. We are very traditional, and I feel proud to be a part of that tradition. I plan on, when I someday have kids, raising my children similar to how I was raised in the Church. It, in my opinion, teaches good morals and values that I feel are important in a healthy upbringing.

Rekna

I have been all over, born and raised lutheran, attended catholic services rarely with friends, attended a baptist church in college and now in grad school i'm attending multiple non-denominational (fundimental) churches.

Are catholics christains? I'd say some are. All it takes to be a christian is a belief that you are saved by God's grace through Jesus Christ. If you believe this then you are saved.

The other day I invited a catholic who said they wern't attending church here at grad school to one of my churches and they said they couldn't, that the catholics aren't allowed. That proceeded me to ask why? Wouldn't god be happy if you were worshiping him and it doesn't matter where the service is?

My problem with big churches is they get to big, they think they have all the answers, and have figured it all out. The church as a whole gets proud and tells their memebers not to seek god without their guidence. My friend also said they are not supposed to read the bible. This completly blew my mind. How is it that we are not supposed to read gods word? These churches that focus purely on tradition and dogma need to reevaluate what God is about. God is not about how many hail marries you say, how many people you helped to day, how many times you prayed, or how many people you dicipled. None of that matters. All that matters is God's love for us is greater than all of our love for him combined. And because of this we are saved despite our sin and flaws. There is no scorecard for heaven (just one true or false question, is jesus your lord and personal savior). We should not legalize religion (see galations), it only leads to problems and halftruths.

Living in Utah now I get exposed to the LDS (Mormans) all the time. They have great zeal but yet many of their beliefs are contradictory to the bible (see galations again). The bible is all we have, we need to go to that first when we want to know what God want's from us.

asaris

FWIW, RCCs are allowed to attend protestant services, they just can't take communiion; my roommate's a PhD Theology student, so he should know, and he's come to church with me before.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

SecretMethod70

(threads merged)

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

martinguerre

just to be clear...

RCC's are permitted by many (most?) Protestant denominations to take communion (common practices are open table eucharist that's for anyone, or simply restricted to baptized Christians).

But...if the RCC person is being serious about Catholic teaching, they are told not to take it by their church.

Just to be clear where the actions were taking place.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

SecretMethod70

Just a pet peeve of mine: Catholicism is strictly called "Catholicism," not "Roman Catholicism." Roman Catholicism is to Catholicism as Jesuit is to the monastic order. There are many different areas of Catholicism (where there is agreement on theological issues but not necessarily administrative issues such as the marrying of priests).

Explanation/more info: http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/c...d_churches.htm

I guess I just feel bad for all those other Catholics who get shafted by our habit of referring to everything as ROMAN Catholicism

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

maleficent

I live in a very very Italian Cathlic area in NJ (Much of the opening credits of The Sopranos is shot within 2 miles of my front door) Practically every other house has a shrine to Mary somewhere on their front lawn or in the house (the obligatory statue with a candle or two)

I can understand why people might think Roman Catholics worship Mary. It's not true, but I can see why people make that mistake.

Praying to Mary is important, as it was explained to me by Sister Maureen (who has since left the convent) in 8th grade. You want something, you ask the momma, because no boy is ever gonna say no to his momma. So, praying to Mary was the most direct route to Jesus (Ya see Jesus was pretty busy with all the other religions calling upon him, so Mary was a little less busy)

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asaris

Since, as a protestant, I also believe in the one true Catholic church, I use the term "Roman Catholic" to describe those Christian which consider themselves under the authority of the pope. This describes Eastern Rite RCs as well as Western Rite.

And, yes, I meant not allowed to take communion by the RCC. The CRC doesn't care who takes communion, as long as they "believe in the lord Jesus Christ and trust in him alone for their salvation."

As far as worshipping Mary, I would be very surprised if there was not at least one person who professed to be RC and actually worshipped Mary. But indeed, this is not the official teaching of the RCC.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche