You Don't Believe In God & I Would Like To Hear Why. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

GakFace · 12-30-2003, 11:20 AM

I'm not sure that this exact thread has been mentioned, I looked, but I may have missed it...

There have been threads asking why people believe in God, there have been threads asking why people no longer believe in God. There have also been threads of just arguements.

What I would like to know is why you don't believe in a God. I'm not looking for flames. I am not attacking your belief in no God. I simply wish to broaden my knowledge.. the best way is to get direct input from people that don't believe.

SO, with as much detail as needed... Why do you not believe in God. If you write me a book, write me a book! Please try to make your posts well thought out as I'd like to take these thoughts with me in life.

Thank You
-- GakFace

ALSO! I don't really want any believers to post up here. I want this to just be informational if at all possible. This thread is not for debate with non-believer about what they have stated.. that deserves its own thread. This isn't a thread for the Dispute of Truth, but A Quest for Knowledge. Thanks Again!

CSflim · 12-30-2003, 12:51 PM

I'll probably come back to this and post in more detail, but put simply:

I see no evidence what so ever that would lead me to believe in a god.

I know I have used the following analogy many times on this board, but it is one which pretty much sums up by beliefs.

Do you believe that there is an invisible purple llama living under my bed?
No. Of course you don't! Why? Because there is no reason to! Do you have a proof that the invisible purple llama doesn't exist? No. Do you even have any evidence to show that the inivisible purple llama doesn't exist? No. So why don't you believe in it?

The only real counter argument is the "I have personally felt God's presence" argument, and I'm afraid that that will never cut it with me.

The other argument against it is reffering to historical events which could not have happened without god's intervention, lets not even mention creationism (a topic not worthy of discussion), but other events such as the resurection of christ, and the great flood. Again, a lack of evidence causes me to discount these things.

"Modern theists might acknowledge that, when it comes to Baal and the Golden Calf, Thor and Wotan, Poseidon and Apollo, Mithras and Ammon Ra, they are actually atheists. We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
-Richard Dawkins

Mantus · 12-30-2003, 12:52 PM

GakFace I have been working on such a thread for about a month and a half now. It has been a slow process as I have been distracting myself quite often. Hopefully ill finnish it soon.

In the mean time I will give a rough version of my current views.

- God is not The Answer. It is the choice to stop asking questions.

- The belief in god is a choice to end one's pursuit of knowledge with an answer. Yet god is not the final answer.

- To reject god is to ask the next question. It is the choice to end one's pursuit of knowledge with a question.

wilbjammin · 12-30-2003, 01:22 PM

Since existence is absurd, holding a believe in God is absurd. If God does existence in some form other than "all you see is a manifestation of God" (this doesn't speak of creation, intention, etc... all exists with NO explanation). The lack of explanation, the silence of the universe, lends me to have no reason to believe in God. To believe in God out of a fear of retribution and punishment is Bad Faith for me - the idea of a God that punishes me for not believing in him/her (God doesn't have a good pronoun really...) is also absurd. It sounds rather metaphorical also. The idea of heaven is just as absurd, is there inherent meaning to existence by simply living in heaven. I fail to see purpose in hell certainly, but I also fail to see it in the idea of heaven. And, since human existence is defined by an embodied mind, the believe in an afterlife is also absurd to me. When the mind and body dies, there isn't anything left. Have you ever met someone that was completely changed into a new person after having brain damage, surgery, or perhaps a debilitative mental illness? My experience in dealing with all of these kinds of people leads me to believe that no one has an essential essence (sounds almost redundant...), a pure spirit or anything like that - we are all very dependent on our flesh for defining who we are. With that gone, we are nothing. As such, you live and you die... in the end you are nothing, just like in the beginning (we are also born without essence... life is a process of creating our essence).

Believing in God would do nothing for me; it would be hollow and feel empty. I still have reverence for existence, I am filled with wonder, and I certainly can love with all of my heart.

KellyC · 12-30-2003, 03:39 PM

simply put:

I dont need God in my life. I see some people (does not apply to all) believing in God because they need some sort of guidence in their life, how to live a good life, be a good person, etc.... Since I already have a good idea on how to be a good person and lead a good life, God is not much help to me. This may sound arrogant, but oh well...
Thats just my main arguement, there are more reasons but i'll post more when I've thought them through.
Edit:
I've also hated the idea of confession. If you commited a "sin" then you have to confess, at least once a year. I used to do it up until i was 10, then my parents stop making me and i stopped doing it. The idea that you have confess to a priest, then he tells you to recite 50 Hail Marry, or some shit like that then you are forgiven is stupid. Reciting those graces does not make the sin go away, the sin is still there. So why bother? A better to repent for your sins would be to help others. At least thats what I think. Like Ben Franklin said "Serving God is doing good to men, pray is thought an easier service, therefore, more generaly chosen." (hope thats the exact words)
Then theres the part about the priest being the middle-guy between me and God. I was raised to believe that God is everwhere so I can just "communicate" to God whenever, where ever, thus, the need to talk to the priest and then he'll relay the message to God is also stupid.
The idea of heaven and hell seems absurd, too. Somewhere in the past, i was told that no matter how good you are, theres still a chance that you might not get into heaven, but of course theres always a 100% chance that you'll go to hell when you are bad. That, I find hard to swallow...so I didn't.

My dad told us( me and sibblings) that the idea of heaven and hell were made up by the church to scare people back in the middle age. Can any one varify this? He used to study to become a priest when he was young but got drafted for war so i'm sure that he is reliable. But still, i'd like to know more about it.
I've also try to date the words "hell" , "heaven" and "sin" but can only go as far as before 12th century, can any one help me find the exact date of those words? Many thanks in advance.

Fibrosa · 12-30-2003, 03:42 PM

I don't believe because I see no reason to believe.

I suppose you want a longer answer then that though. Here's a bit of an essay that I wrote a few days after I became an agnostic atheist (originally it had hyperlinks and I'm transferring it from a word document to here via cut and paste):

Quote:

My Beliefs

For the past couple of weeks I've been doing a lot of introspection and a lot of reading across various disciplines in order to get some sort of handle on my faith/beliefs. I haven't made a lot of progress in my beliefs and the transition has been somewhat difficult and it what lay ahead will be even more difficult, because of the underlying ramifications that my paradigm shift will undoubtedly induce. I have come up with a few areas of interest that I will continue to study, but so far, my faith has fallen.

A brief word about my previously held beliefs: In the beginning I was a YEC (Young Earth Creationist), a literal 'bible-blinded-bible thumper' (no offense). The word was literal, the word was good, and the word was correct. No smudging the lines. I'd get into verbal masturbation with my friends about the issues pertinent to religion (specifically Christian religion). When I looked at the contradictions in the bible and the absurdities in some of the passages, I would think to myself that it was *I* who had the problem with reading the book. It was either that, or one of the translators along the way; Keep in mind, I believed that the bible was the inerrant word of God-but I didn’t believe that it had been faithfully translated into the modern additions (such as the King James or the New International). As you can imagine, this gave me a lot of wiggle room, but it was intellectually dishonest of me and that intellectual dishonesty finally caught up with me and made itself known-in fact this sort of belief leads to a logical nightmare for some believers.

Somewhere along the line I was introduced to the concepts of skepticism, which made me give up my fallacious belief in all things paranormal (UFO's, psychics, etc). This transition took a while, primarily because it's hard to get a grip on pseudoscience and developing a "bologna detector" takes some time (as well as going over logic). One of the biggest helps in my transition was a book by Michael Shermer, entitled “Why People Believe Weird Things”. Some of the chapters made perfect sense and struck a chord with me, some were interesting, and one in particular was pretty influential. It was a chapter regarding the position of Young Earth Creationists. I didn’t automatically drop my belief after the last page of course. It took some mulling and some further research to find out if the book was accurate.

I got more interested in my faith and Christianity and I felt that I needed to explore the issues of Young Earth Creationism more thoroughly. So I decided to actually read the rather long book. I came to a number of immediate conclusions: I dropped YEC like the cold useless brick that it is, and I stopped my worship of the book, and instead focused on my 'relationship' with God.
* A brief note about YEC’s. Young Earth Creationists have many differing beliefs-as do almost all Christians (if I recall correctly there are more then 2,000 different sects of Christianity in the United States alone). I adhered to the belief that the world was between 6-12 thousand years old, that Adam and Eve were the first humans, that there was a catastrophic flood that wiped out the earth, and that the 6 days of creation (mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis) were literally the way it happened. Consequently I had to disbelieve in science, as the major tenants of practically all the branches of sciences were wrong in my opinion (they had to be in order to support a literal Genesis). I tried not to think of it too much, but when I did I thought that scientists were being “tricked by the devil”. I also tried not to think about my denial of the basic tenants of biology (evolution goes against the bible), astronomy (which shows how old the earth is and the universe), geology (another age of the earth), physics (several earth-aging techniques employee the use of the half-life of radioactive substances, which are measured by physic laws), paleontology (dinosaurs didn’t live with man), as well as numerous other fields that I can’t quite think of anymore.

During this time, I began to get involved quite extensively in the online debates regarding evolution/creationism/bible inerrancy/etc. I found that I couldn't stomach the amount of lies (from my point of view) that the 'scholars' of creationism were willing to tell. I just thought of these individuals as having such little faith that they had to cling to what they wished was true. It was a little sad and at the same time, I realized that their pressuring of the school systems to actually teach this garbage was too much. It reminded me of Machiavelli’s The Prince, and the phrase from that book "the end justifies the means". I certainly didn't think the end justifies the means, especially for good Christians, and I still don't-besides, why would an omnipotent being need to lie in order to propagate a belief system about itself?

It just didn't make sense.
I realize that the majority of these Christian fundamentalists do not know that these are ‘lies’, but they have not taken it upon themselves to further their education on the matter. It reminds me of Glenn Morton’s demon. Basically these Christians would not listen to anything that contradicted their already held beliefs; they had a ‘filter’ that would separate facts that helped their case against evolution/other religions from the facts that would hurt their case.

In any event, I've been going over it and over it in my mind-reading the pertinent philosophical arguments and I've come to the conclusion that I no longer have a belief in God. As a result, I've become a little more nihilistic about the entire set of affairs. In other words, my image of what is the “truth” is that there really isn’t a profound deep mystical reason behind it all. I don’t think mankind has progressed to the point where the world does make sense. By the same side of the coin, I can not be a true nihilist, because I do believe there is truth to be found; a truth as in how we got here, uncovered through the discoveries of science. Not as in a profound purpose-for even with God and living forever, what possible purpose could there be? No matter which way I look at it, with God or without, there isn’t really any purpose; there is no greater goal except surviving. All of this is not to say that I don’t value my life-I very much do-it’s that the purpose for my life is whatever I choose to make of it. The purpose/point is my choice, my design.

What sort of philosophical arguments/reasons do I have for dropping my faith? Well, I'm not going to go into extensive detail, but I will mention a few things that have bothered me for quite some time. This list is by no means exhaustive.

1. First and foremost, I suppose, is the fact that people have been around on this planet for tens of thousands of years (homo-sapiens at least). In that time, numerous religions have come and gone. Billions of people have died a good majority of which did not believe in the same God/Gods. According to some religions, this isn't necessarily a "damnable" thing-but according to others it is. To expand this point a little bit, where does man begin? Does it begin with homo-sapiens? If modern man is the only one with a soul, then why did Neanderthal man bury their dead? Neanderthal man is an extinct species that sprang from the same common ancestor as modern man. They died out when Cro-Magnum man arrived on the scene. Modern man isn’t directly related to them, which means of course, that if modern man is *special* and are the only ones with a soul/religion then why did Neanderthal man have religious practices?
In any event, the tangent on pre-homo-sapiens does not really matter towards this argument. What matters is that if God requires us to believe in him, then why lead so many people down the wrong religious path? If Christianity is the proper religion, or if any one of the thousands are, then that means that more people are either excluded from heaven or are damned in some form. This sets up an evil/cruel God. In any event, the multitudes of different religion make the concept of God/Gods a little hard to take.

2. I don't have the study handy, but if I recall correctly the majority of people, who believe, believe what their parents believed. Indicating quite strongly to me that while we still had the free will to believe what we choose, we will be quite bias in our choosing. In addition, what happens to the beliefs that are no longer believed in? Why should they be any less valid then the current popularity winners? Wherefore art thou Zeus?
If God leads people toward the truth, then again, I have to wonder why so many people just follow what their parents believe. The situation has all the ear marks of indoctrination; if you are brought up to believe a certain thing, then you probably will. This is the same process that produces racism, classism, pseudoscience, and false histories. If you grow up being told that Germany won World War II, then chances are, you are going to continue to believe that (and not question it).
Granted, there is more evidence surrounding World War II than there is for which religion is correct (there isn’t any evidence as to which religion is correct).

3. Christianity, while old to our standards, hasn't been around forever. In addition, the beliefs presented within its tomb are by no means new concepts. They have all similarities and themes of the religions already around at the time. These beliefs were some Zoroastrianism, some Babylonian influence, some roman beliefs (Mithraicism), etc. The story of Jesus rising from the dead was in fact a very common myth in several different religions (such as the story of Osiris, Isis, Horus, and Seth). The ‘virgin’ birth is another example of the multiplicity of common themes among ancient religions; in fact the astrological sign Virgo is named after a virgin birth that predates Mary’s conception. There is also a clear link between the miracle of raising Lazarus from the dead with other previous religious beliefs. It seems quite clear that the bible takes a lot of its material from other religions.
In addition, another problem with Christianity is the character of Jesus himself. It’s often touted that Jesus has more evidence to support his existence then any other historical figure. I wish this were true, but it is not. There are only a few ancient documents that support a literal Jesus, and absolutely no first hand accounts. What we do have are a few lines from a few sources, including Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Thallus, and others-all of which are after the fact and none of which are deemed truly reliable. I have come to the conclusion that a historical Jesus is not a foregone conclusion and could very well be a myth, from a combination of different mythical “God-men” relevant to other religions.
And now we get to the tradition arguments derived from philosophy.
4. The first being The Argument from Non-Belief. Basically it goes as follows: The Christian God of the bible wants everyone to know that He exists (and thus ward off Hell/damnation). God is omnipotent, and would know what it would take to make everyone a believer. Not everyone actually does believe in God. In fact, currently there is no evidence of God, which means there is no real reason to believe in God. That tells us that God either isn’t terribly concerned with us knowing of God’s existence or that God doesn’t exist. If God isn’t terribly concerned with our existence, then why is their religion in the first place? Why damnation, rules, etc? Sigmund Freud had an idea that religion wasn’t created by God; it was created by mankind in order to alleviate the fear of dying-basically a defense mechanism.

In any event, this doesn't leave us in a very comfortable space as you can imagine seeing as God sends unbelievers to hell…

5. The fifth argument is the argument regarding faith. In order to believe in God (most, I'm not sure about all incarnations), we have to have faith. That is all that is required to accept a belief/religion as true. This would lead us to the conclusion that all faiths are equally true (because evidence isn’t given, nor required to have faith). This would be fine and dandy if they didn’t contradict each other. In other words, since there is no evidence of which religion is correct, then all religions are equally valid. How can we make a choice between them all?

Unless of course there is some evidence as to which religion is the correct religion…But the truth of the matter is that even within religions, there are differences of opinion as to what to believe. If people who believe in a specific religion can’t get it right, then why should we pick that religion? The sad fact is that most, if not all, religions can’t seem to get it right…
6. The question of omnipotence and God. If God is omnipotent, then God has free will. Yet if God is omnipotent, then God will know absolutely everything before it occurs, which means God can't change the future (God knows everything) and God has no free will. In addition, if God is omnipotent/the perfect God, then there would be no need to create earth/planets/etc, because that would suggest an imperfection (something God needed/wanted/etc) for which God had to fix by creating.

7. If God is to be worshipped, then in my opinion, it should be because God is all good. Yet God can not be all good because evil exists. God either created evil or isn't all powerful. The question of evil becomes even more muddled when we believe that God sends people to Hell. How could God be all good, if God is going to send people to a place of eternal torment? It can’t be to punish those people, because the punishment would be in order for them to learn from their mistakes-yet this punishment is eternal. That’s not punishment, that’s sadistic torture.
And God is good? If God were truly good, he wouldn’t have created the people in the first place! God knew exactly how their lives would shape up, exactly what events, produced what and exactly what it would take for those people to believe. Yet those sinners didn’t believe. The rebuttal of “free will” doesn’t hold up, because God knows everything, created everything, and set everything into motion. In order for God to be omnipotent/omniscient everything would have to go exactly as God had planned. So why does God plan for some people to go to Hell?

8. As I had been a Christian, I could easily point out numerous contradictions in the biblical text-that don't match science, or even itself in some places. This plus the very nature of God in the bible has made me rethink my supposed allegiance to this being. Think about it: God is all good and heaven is a place of infinite happiness-right? Well, how ignorant will I have to be in order to be happy in heaven while my friends are roasting in a pit downstairs? I could ramble on and on about my opinion of the bible, but I will be digressing from the point of this diatribe. Suffice it is to say, I still respect Jesus-a man who IMO was a pretty decent fellow- but I don't consider him God.

9. This isn't something that I necessarily agree with yet (the idea that all of the incarnations of God are contradictory in some sense), but I've often made a stink about the impossibilities of proving a negative. For the most part it still holds true-but it doesn't for most conventional versions of God and here's why: It's only possible to prove a logically consistent thing true. Most versions of God are not logically consistent, and the Christian God isn't even scripturally consistent. The underlying premise of proving/disproving something is that the something in question is logical. I could "disprove" a square circle by pointing out that such a thing could not exist logically.

10. With all of the natural discoveries in the world, God is sort of left holding the bag when it comes to supernatural explanations. Even if you don't accept Hawking's Wave Function of the Universe theory you should be able to realize that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and that our *current* ignorance doesn't mean that it is naturally inexplicable how the universe came into being. At most you are left with the God of Deism, who created and then went out for pizza. This type of argument is often called a “God of the gaps” argument. It means that whatever science can’t currently explain is due to God’s intervention. Primitive man couldn’t explain lightning, so it was believed that Zeus was throwing thunderbolts at us. It has only been in the past hundred years or so that electricity has been explained and there is no reason to suppose that God is currently creating every lightning bolt. So the explanatory power of God shrinks a little. “God did it” now consists of a few miracles not currently understood very well by science (such as how the big bang started).

So where does that leave me?

Currently that leaves me as an agnostic atheist, subject to change of course. What an agnostic atheist means is the following:

An agnostic doesn't think the God question is truly knowable. An atheist is someone without a belief in a God, equivalent to saying "I don't believe in unicorns" (or invisible pink unicorns).
My Response to Common Arguments for God
I’m only going to deal with five, Pascal’s Wager, the cosmological, the ontological, the argument from morals, and the argument from personal feeling.
1. Pascal’s Wager is basically a flawed gambling premise. Pascal’s notion was that if God exists, and you believe, you go to heaven. If God does not exist and you believe, you’ve lost nothing in believing. If God exists and you don’t believe, you go to hell. Finally, if God does not exist and you don’t believe, again you lose nothing. In other words, it’s better to believe and be wrong, then not to believe and be wrong.
The problem though is that Pascal was automatically assuming that Christianity was the proper religion to believe in. He discounts the fact that there are literally thousands of other religions out there, with thousands of other Gods out there. You can not worship them all, as belief in some violates holy commandments in others. So, say you accept the tenants of Hinduism (believe in their Gods, practice their rituals) and Christianity turns out to be the ‘correct’ religion-you are now damned to Hell for believing in false Gods.
2. The Cosmological argument is a first cause argument. Everything in the universe has a cause, so the train of logic goes that the universe (the Big Bang singularity) had to have a “first” cause- i.e., God. The trouble is that this is an argument from ignorance, because its validity stems from the fact that we don’t truly know if everything has a first cause. In addition, if everything has a first cause, then what caused God? If God is eternal and has always been here, then why can we not make this assumption about the universe itself? Also, as mentioned earlier, scientists are just now coming close to possible beginnings that do not require an omnipotent being (wave function theory).
3. The Ontological argument is basically semantics and empty rhetoric. It states that since we can imagine a perfect being the perfect being has to be real, because otherwise it wouldn’t be a ‘perfect being’. It’s an interesting argument, but the fact is, how do you imagine a perfect anything? In addition, you can turn the question around and say “aren’t several beings more perfect then a singular one?” Or say I can imagine a perfect being perfectly not existing. In any event, it’s not really a solid justification-its word play based on an idea of our ability to imagine a perfect being (which isn’t possible, because the moment you start defining the ‘being’ it can be shown to be not perfect).
4. The argument from morals is another interesting argument, but it again is fatally flawed. The basic premise is that in order to have ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ there has to be an absolute right and wrong. These morals have to come from a higher source then man, otherwise they are arbitrary and dependent on the man who is deeming the right and wrong-in other words, they wouldn’t be “absolute”. The problem with this argument is that the premise isn’t true; i.e., there isn’t an absolute right and wrong. In order for there to be one, everyone would have to know what the absolute morals are-the fact that different societies and cultures disagree about laws/morals/etc is more then ample proof that there isn’t any absolutes. Morals are based on what the specific society has considered to be the ‘rules’, which are further based on the logical human principles of “I’ll treat you as I want to be treated”. Those principles are based on evolutionary principles plus intelligence-what helps an individual survive and a population survive is a good guideline.
5. The final argument for God that I’m going to discuss is the argument from personal feeling. In this argument I will be dealing with my own feelings, as it would be impossible for me to describe or apply reason to someone else’s feelings. This argument entails that a person knows that God exists due to a feeling that God does exist. This feeling is similar to being watched and a deep seated ‘gut’ feeling that God exists. It’s hard to rationalize this specific line of evidence away, due to its nature, and will take a while for it to finally dissipate, if it ever does really dissipate. I believe it will primarily due to the fact that I’ve had other deep seated feelings about other erroneous creatures before. When I was in High School I believed in UFO’s rather extensively, I thought aliens were coming to earth and abducting people-the whole nine yards. I had a very similar deep unquestioning attitude towards that belief that I had towards the belief in God. I suppose ultimately this belief springs from the notion that “hope springs eternal”.
Death and all that is dear to me
Naturally the question comes up, what happens when I die? Where do I get my values from and what’s important?
My newfound reaction to the question of death is that I don’t know. I’m hoping that there is something to look forward to, of course, but in all probability there will probably be nothing. Death, for me, will be similar to the experience of before I was born. There will be nothing and I will feel nothing. It’s sort of a hard concept to actually grasp, seeing as all of our experiences require our brains to interpret some sort of stimuli, and death is the eradication of all interpretation by our brains of stimuli. So I’m thinking that death will be a big blank. I’ll go about my struggle for life and my body will give up and the next thing I’ll experience will be similar to sleep-with the absence of waking up.

The concept actually frightens me to tell the truth. Unfortunately, just because I wish it was not true, doesn’t mean that it will magically become not true. It’s something that I will have to learn to deal with. On the one hand, there is no Hell, nor the fear of punishment of any sort. On the other hand, there is no prolonged existence. If I actually got to choose, I would pick an afterlife-even if it meant that I would be suffering in Hell for eternity, because I would derive some solace in the fact that a few of my loved ones would be in Heaven.
Values are a tricky thing and for me, the honest answer is that I receive my values from both society and my previous religion. It would be dishonest of me to claim that I could undue 25 years worth of religious values (or even societal values) in the span of a few weeks. In addition, in order to have any sort of credibility or a reason for others to trust me, I have to stick to those values that I deem important. In reality there is no reason to deviate from my previous values, there is no point in becoming a liar or harming others, as it would catch up to me, in addition to the fact that neither of those two positions hold any sort of curiosity to me. Also, my values must match the legal values of this United States, or else I will be punished in reality.
In any event, my values and morals have not really changed, seeing as I find them honorable and intellectually stable.
For the longest time, I thought that love was the best reason to believe in the existence of God, for what reason could there be for the emotion so powerful? Unfortunately I could assign the gift of love to just about anything and have the same explanatory power as “God”. In reality, love is a product of evolution, survival, plus intelligence. Other creatures ‘mate for life’, which to me indicates some sort of emotion similar to love (penguins, by the way, don’t always mate for life). Does this mean that love is any less valuable then I had previously thought? No, and on the contrary, it is more important. If love was an attribute prescribed by God and we are only able to marry one person (at least in the Christian tradition) then how could you love another person after one relationship has gone bad? Also, if love is an attribute given by God, then that takes away our freewill. In a very real sense, it would lessen the value of love, because it was forced upon you. Personally, I feel that love has an element of choice to it. In addition, I think it’s in line with keeping with our survival as a species. Cave women would have had a much more difficult time caring for their children if the cave men did not find themselves emotionally attached to them.
In essence, I do think that love is more then mere lust, more then just a choice, more then just an engraving in our DNA to ensure our survival, it’s an unexpected result of all three. It’s also a result that provides us with a purpose for life. A purpose is the single most valuable commodity in this world. That’s one thing the concept of God doesn’t give us-a purpose. All the concept of God does is pushes the purpose onto God. An omnipotent being can not have a purpose-a set plan-because that would limit an omnipotent “all powerful” being. Even if this were not the case, ascribing a purpose to God makes the purpose arbitrary and the result of a whim.
I prefer to define my own purpose and my own standards-because I certainly haven’t heard any word from above as to what I’m supposed to be here for.

papermachesatan · 12-31-2003, 02:22 AM

If you can present some credible evidence or anything giving some support to the existance of a God, then I will believe.

Until then, I see no point in believing.

papermachesatan · 12-31-2003, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CSflim
The only real counter argument is the "I have personally felt God's presence" argument, and I'm afraid that that will never cut it with me.

I can make you feel God with drugs and any sort of various natural phenomena.

Of course, God is a completely subjective interpretation of those tingly feelings. You may simply choose to interpret those tingly feelings as 'tingly'

nanofever · 12-31-2003, 07:17 AM

Csfilm, Paper, Fibrosa and Mantus all beat me to the punch of why I don't believe in god.

Now my wolf like spirit guide Umbeke, he's as real as daylight and greets me each morning with pleasant conversation, sprinkled with advice and humerous comentary.

Umbeke > God

ARTelevision · 12-31-2003, 01:27 PM

I don't "believe" in anything.
I know a few things - not much.
That's about it.

Don't see any need for believing in things.

sixate · 12-31-2003, 02:22 PM

Because the thought of an all knowing all seeing all powerful being who created everything and just sits above us all and does nothing with his great power is absolutely the most ridiculous thing that I have ever/will ever hear in my entire life. I live in a place called reality, and I welcome everyone else to come and join me.

I have never believed ever since I was a child, and there is absolutely no chance that I will ever change.

I'll add that the actions of religious people that I've had experiences with have only created my hatred toward all religion.

DonnChadh · 12-31-2003, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KellyC
simply put:

I dont need God in my life. I see some people (does not apply to all) believing in God because they need some sort of guidence in their life, how to live a good life, be a good person, etc.... Since I already have a good idea on how to be a good person and lead a good life, God is not much help to me.

Thats pretty much what I was going to put.

In one sentence: I don't believe in a god, because I don't need to believe in a god.

Halx · 12-31-2003, 03:47 PM

I'm not one to buy into someone else's ideas.
God is an idea because I have not seen any proof of Him.
I have had it explained to me that to believe is to know Him, but that is obvious. It's a human trait that when you think about something, you start seeing it everywhere that you look. It's pure psychology.
My girlfriend is hardcore religious, so you can bet we've had many discussions about this. I still think she's crazy and she still thinks I'll come to one day.
I have an atom symbol tattooed on my chest. It basicly means that everything can be explained through science.
Many argue that God IS science. To that I say 2 things. First, "Make up your mind." This was not the case 500 years ago.
Second, I say, "It is very convenient to describe God as an all-encompassing blanket. There is no room for arguement. There is no choice. There is no freedom."

Basicly, in order for me to believe in God, that fucker has gotta do some direct wish-granting like he did back in the day of the miracles and shit, as that big book describes. Until them, it's all randomized luck.

FYI too.. I was raised Jewish, taken to church weekly by a Christian, lived in a neighborhood filled with Mormons, and I am next in line to conduct Pesah with my family.

Dragonlich · 12-31-2003, 05:06 PM

This is actually a rather silly question. Why do I *not* believe in X???

If X were to be "the easter bunny", i'd probably start laughing; if it were "the pink bunny walking behind me", I'd consider you quite insane; yet if it is "god", you expect me to give you a list of reasons?

There is no reason to believe in God, simply because such a belief is unreasonable. The whole concept is alien to me - what makes "god" different from any of the other options I mentioned?

tecoyah · 12-31-2003, 05:34 PM

Well now...."GOD"

No I don't believe in an all powerful creature as described by the men of old, but there seems to be some form of energy, which we as humans can tap into. The names are irrelevant and unfortunately clutter an otherwise fascinating chunk of nature.
Keyword "NATURE" as in natural.
It seems unnatural to corrupt such a useful thing as energy, into a means to demean and ridicule each other. Pity the ingnorant, for they must suffer each other. The rest of us can sit back and smile at the trials of youth(young soul).
I must agree that the term "god" is quickly becoming a signature of relative ignorance, but not stupidity. Many a genius of our age has carried strong faith in one entity or another, more power to 'em.
I am quite pleased that I have been fortunate enough to leave the trappings of christian faith far behind me, as I am now free to explore an unencumbered growth of my soul thru science and nature....the "real" world as we humans can understand it.

Mehoni · 12-31-2003, 08:53 PM

I was "raised" into Christianity. Baptized, went to church daycare, got "confirmed" at 14 and joined the local youth group.

I have never belived in any god. I tried to feel somehing, tried to belive, but it just wasn't there. 404.

I belive in things I can prove, understand and watch. Show me how thngs work, how things are created and evidence that supports your claims.

I'm a science-nut though. I have a hard time associating with people who belivee in a religion... mostly because I can't understand them and they seem illogical to me. I'm not hiding this. I can be "friends" with them, but not _friends_.

And no, I'm not hiding from people who has a different opinion. I'm always on the look out for something that change the way I look at the world. I seek things out. I need to know exactly why I can't believe in stuff and why I find it hard to believe.

datalink7 · 01-02-2004, 02:04 PM

Quite simple really... I see no evidence to suggest God exists.

Tman144 · 01-03-2004, 09:44 PM

I don't believe in God because all religions are wrong. All religions are localized, if God truly did speak to some tribe somewhere then it should have said the same thing to another group of people somewhere else. It make no sense for God to tell some people its a bear or a wolf and then tell other people that he is sending down his only son to die for them. Why would God create the entire world and then tell only a few people in one part of the world about him. Since all of these religions only spread locally, it leads me to think that they just pulled it out of their ass and that no such being exsisted.

anti fishstick · 01-04-2004, 03:18 PM

i do not believe in god because of the implication of christianity. to have a religion based on fear is no religion for me. the stories in the bible are metaphorical and probably inaccurate hearsay. and why should i be punished for not believing in god. eternal damnation and hell? if i don't believe in god or christianity, then i also don't believe in heaven or hell. so their doctrines do not affect me. i tried believing in god once, and really accepting faith but it did nothing for me. it was fake and contrived and felt so hollow.. i cannot exist with external reverence. why should the way of god be inside a wooden structure, with a steeple, gable and stained glass windows we call a church? i am spiritual by my own means. and i am much happier this way. i can't get happiness from without, only within. i cannot ask god to give me happiness, only myself. i don't need god to show me moral goodness.

meepa · 01-04-2004, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragonlich
This is actually a rather silly question. Why do I *not* believe in X???

If X were to be "the easter bunny", i'd probably start laughing; if it were "the pink bunny walking behind me", I'd consider you quite insane; yet if it is "god", you expect me to give you a list of reasons?

There is no reason to believe in God, simply because such a belief is unreasonable. The whole concept is alien to me - what makes "god" different from any of the other options I mentioned?

Besides all the other reasons that people have posted, I think at the root of the problem, this is a good answer. The default position is "There is no god(s)". Most people don't think that, because believing in some deity is the popular thing to do... But really, left alone, you don't have these weird notions in your head to believe in the first place. So really, all the atheists/agnostics should ask, "Just why do YOU believe?", not the other way around. The burdon of proof is on the believers... and as far as I know, the best they can come up with is faith... which I mean really... COME ON!

jondotg · 01-04-2004, 09:55 PM

I know that someone may have already mentioned it, but I don't want to read all these "books", just give my two cents:

There is a generally believed theory that the simplest answer is always the right one, and "God did it" is the simplest answer to every question...

Mantus · 01-05-2004, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jondotg
"God did it" is the simplest answer to every question...

Actually it is a lie to oneself. The statement does not imply that all has been answered; it implies that a choice has been made to stop asking questions.

Moonduck · 01-06-2004, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilbjammin
Since existence is absurd, holding a believe in God is absurd.

Bit of a leap there.

---

I don't believe in God because I don't. Tautology to an extent, but I've found that I simply lack the capacity to believe. I used to think I was too rational, too literal, then I found that I wasn't as rational as I thought. I used to think that I was too smart, too educated, then I met with believers that were better educated and smarter than I. I used to think that I saw religion for the lie that it is, and that others were blind to this fact. Then I realized that I don't have ownership of any truth, and that I cannot consider myself to have a better vantage point as a result.

In the end I realized that I don't believe in God for no rational, logical, or deeply considered reason. I simply don't believe. I am too honest with myself to try and feel smug about the fact, and too respectful of those who believe deeply to consider myself superior because I don't feel the way they do. I am just incapable of believing, so I do not.

As an aside, I do not believe in science either. I don't see a reason to believe in it, as science should not be taken on faith by its' own standards. Those who express profound reverence for science are nearly as bad as those who shout their unending reverence to their gods. I don't care, science doesn't care, and your god probably doesn't care either (in fact, if you are a Christian, being obnoxiously loud about your Christianity is a non-no, so I'd bet that the Christian god ain't interested).

In short, I don't believe in anything. It either is, or is not.

MSD · 01-11-2004, 04:02 PM

The traditional belief is that God created us all, gave us free will, then demanded that we use free will to do what he says or face eternal punishment. God is omniscient, omnipotent, and he loves us all.

He loves us all, he created us in his image then decided to punish those of us who strayed from the path he chose for us. If we were created in his image, then we would be similarly infallible. The presence of free will and sin contradict teh "fact" that we were created in God's image. If we are fallible, then God is fallible, and a fallible God is not omnipotent or onmniscient.

With the traditinal notion of God discredited in my mind, Two options are left. Either God created us and let us do as we please wihtout interfering, or God does not exist. At this point I decided that either option is equally logical, and a lack of evidence to support either argument makes the argument itself pointless.

With two equally illogical arguments facing off against each other, I decided that my energy should be devoted to earthly tasks, such as trying to make the world a better place, being accepting and loving toward others, and eradicating my annoying habit of ending sentences with prepositions.

Whether or not God exists is irrelevant, I live my life as I think is best for me and everyone else. So, there you have it, a belief system that relies on nothing but earthly desires, and guides me toward good. Take Christ out of Christianity, and you remove teh reason to kill and die for religion and a way of life.

I've joked with my brother that I've created an addition to the three main schools of thought. In addition to theist, agnostic, and atheist, I put apatheist, a combination of the words apathy and theist, meaning "One who does not care whether or not God exists, and will live their life the same way regardelss of the presence or absence of a supreme being.

Fibrosa · 01-12-2004, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Halx
Basicly, in order for me to believe in God, that fucker has gotta do some direct wish-granting like he did back in the day of the miracles and shit, as that big book describes. Until them, it's all randomized luck.

No shit man. You know, if you look at the old testament and then the new and compare it to modern day, you realize one important (IMO) thing: God proves himself less and less as science and knowledge advances.

Fibrosa · 01-12-2004, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jondotg
I know that someone may have already mentioned it, but I don't want to read all these "books", just give my two cents:

There is a generally believed theory that the simplest answer is always the right one, and "God did it" is the simplest answer to every question...

Actually God would be a very complicated answer; the simplest answer would be that the universe popped into existence via wave theory (sort of like quantum physics I gather). In that explanation their are no superfluous deities to explain, no incredible eternal 'ethers' to account for.

God the simplest answer? Only if you don't actually think about it.

vonstalhein · 01-13-2004, 11:41 AM

Put simply, i agree with CSfilm mostly, i don't believe in God because i don't need to. Often it seems to me believing in God can be trouble...

Mantus · 01-14-2004, 11:05 PM

Well here it is, a slightly more crystallized answer to the original question. Sorry it took so long.

If I say that God created the universe, do you feel comforted that it was not the result of a cosmic accident? Why would you prefer God by your side rather then luck? Does it make you feel better to know that God will welcome you into the afterlife upon your death? Do you feel less alone in those dark hours if you know that God is with you?

Why?

The answer lies in our concept of God. The properties, attributes and give the word God a meaning, a definition, an essence. We describe god as conscious, good, loving, just, vengeful, helpful, all powerful and in many other ways. Only then does the evoking the word God bring significance to the statements mentioned above. Only then do we feel comforted that a good god created the world; that a just god is by our side; and that a loving god will be waiting at the gates of heaven.

This is where the waves of faith break against reason. For every attribute that is given to god contradictions and arguments arise.

A claim is made that god is good and all around us, then why do bad things happen?
A claim is made that god just, then why is there injustice in this world?
A claim is made that god loves us all, then why does he favor some and not others?
A claim is made that god is vengeful, then why does he not bring his fist upon the wicked?
A claim is made that god is helpful then why does he ignore people in need?
Oh there are always answers and excuses but they never give us clarity. Eventually these God’s of ours grow into complex and detailed concepts, barely holding together, smoke and mirrors.

There are further problems. God is often used to fill gaps in our knowledge. To answer those difficult questions which take lifetimes to illuminate. There will always be gaps in our knowledge, yet our knowledge is always expanding and what we do not understand today may be clear as day tomorrow. God is not an answer; it is simply a choice to stop asking questions. Some one will always choose to ask those questions and eventually answers will come. So when we so readily use God as an answer we must realize that sooner or later God will have to be pushed aside to make room for knowledge.

The essence of god cannot be captured. The role of god cannot be known. The more questions we ask the more distant God becomes.

In the end though a particular proverb always gets me. “There are no atheists in the trenches.” Which bring everything into perspective for me. God is there because we cannot always bear not knowing how this world came into being. God is there because we cannot always bear entrusting our lives to statistics. God is there because we cannot always question what is on the other side of the veil. God is there because we cannot always bear being alone. God is whatever we want it to be. The concept of God, just like anything else, can be used for whatever purpose we desire, good or evil. Therefore I must conclude that while God is a very useful tool for our society, it is not pure, it fades from our grasp if we look at it hard enough. Therefore I must continue looking for that which is solid and true, that will show us our path, if such a path even exists.

Cheers

Dragonlich · 01-15-2004, 12:37 AM

Mantus, although I don't want to devalue your response... the proverb you mentioned in your last paragraph is bullocks. You shouldn't bother explaining it, simply because it's *not true*. Go ask any soldier that's been in combat.

Johnny Rotten · 01-16-2004, 09:45 PM

I don't believe in "God" or any perfect being. That said, I do believe that what we understand as reality is only the tip of the iceberg--or the bottom of it. I don't think that I will cease to exist after my body dies, but I'm not bothered by the possibility that I'm wrong and my self will be erased when I leave this mortal coil. I'm fine with either event.

If something does indeed exist beyond the veil, I firmly believe its parameters are far beyond our understanding. Yet I don't think it's a paradise or reward of some kind--just a different place.

Ever onward, almost like a Buddhist wheel.

tecoyah · 01-17-2004, 05:30 AM

God is there because we are ignorant.

Andy · 01-27-2004, 08:04 PM

I'll start off by mentioning that I don't believe in free will. There's threads on that if you are curious, but I am in total agreement. Based on that, though, it also means that we really are in no control over our actions. Everything is orchestrated and based from past events. If that is the case, then how can God judge us and send us to Heaven or Hell? If you are a murderer, that's because he "created" a murderer. Why should you be punished? And why should you be rewarded if he made you a nice person?

Also, so much of what religious people say about god is entrenched in hypocrisy. I've often asked why God is not to blame for horrid events in the world, often using terrorism as an example. Every time, I am told that after having created us, God allows us to exercise free will and does not change the events in the world. But these same people are the ones who will say "Thank God!" when something good happens to them. Thank him for what? YOU just said he doesn't affect events in the real world. These are the same people who pray and ASK God to change things for them. Does this make any sense? All of a sudden, God is reponsible for all the good in the world, but none of the bad. Good events are not a result of free will, but bad events are. Do I see a double standard here?

Why is it that people are comforted by praying if they are so content in absolving God from all blame? Why are people so willing to believe that they are special and that God will do something for them, even if he supposedly doesn't use his power to change the course of events in the world?

Are people just blind? Do they merely see what they want to see, and believe what they want to believe? Why don't you ask the people who saw the Virgin Mary in a fence post in Australia, a stain in a window in Boston, and in a tree stump in New Jersey? For a virgin, she really gets around.

P.S. I hate when an athlete is interviewed after winning a big game and credits God. Hello?!? Don't you think the other team prayed as well? Maybe they should all stop lifting weights and practicing and just focus on praying. See what happens then.

Ogre840 · 01-28-2004, 11:55 PM

Few reasons.

I've asked for help. Nothing.

I've asked for signs. Nothing.

I've been driven away by religious fanatics, I hate them.

There have been hundreds of diffrent gods, it is just a form of dealing with death. if you have hopes of an after life, you're not afraid to die. People used this thought to scare and control the masses. People use this to wage "holy wars" on people with diffrent beliefs.

If there was a god, and he wanted us to all believe in him, there wouldn't be other religions.

And my final piece of evidence. I've challenged him. He hasn't done shit!

davik · 01-29-2004, 09:07 AM

I'll attack this from the point of view of a scientist (since I'm a physicist). I think my initial atheism came from the fact that religion is absurd; there isn't a single religion that I have heard of that hasn't been disproven time and again by science and had to re-write its view of either creation or the universe. This, in my opinion, invalidates the religion as they apparently don't have the true word of any god (unless you assume that the Word is wrong, and that's just messy).

Expanding to spirituality (belief in god, not religion), I look at it as choosing a starting point. No matter which theory of creation you choose, god or the big bang, there comes a point in time where one must take a leap of faith and assume an effect without a cause. Either god existed and nothing came before, or the big bang existed and nothing came before. From a scientific point of view both are equally valid assumptions, which is to say that they are theories without any supporting or conflicting evidence. Personally I chose atheism partly because it makes more intuitive sense and partly because of the somewhat irrationally strong loathing of religion I picked up when I was younger.

fnaqzna · 01-29-2004, 10:30 PM

Belief isn't a choice.

You either do or you don't.

wilbjammin · 01-29-2004, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fnaqzna
Belief isn't a choice.

You either do or you don't.

I couldn't more strongly disagree with anything I have ever read on the philosophy board since first coming here.

fnaqzna · 01-29-2004, 10:51 PM

Think about it.

You don't believe in god because you can't find a reason to. Even if you wanted to, you couldn't. Sure, you could delude yourself and go through the motions but deep down you know it wouldn't be honest. You can't just simply turn it on.

I tried. I went through the motions for years. Went to church, read the scripture. I wanted to believe, but it never truly came to me and I felt dishonest the entire time.

Today, I call myself atheist, but I'm still searching for something that resonates.

wilbjammin · 01-29-2004, 11:05 PM

Quote:

You don't believe in god because you can't find a reason to. Even if you wanted to, you couldn't. Sure, you could delude yourself and go through the motions but deep down you know it wouldn't be honest. You can't just simply turn it on.

I could find reasons to, and I could probably even convince myself that I want to believe and push myself to genuinely do it. Everytime I talk about God, or anything else that I believe or don't believe in I'm faced with a choice of how I engage it and whether or not I want to continue to believe the same thing or not. I know people that had spent the first 40 years of their lives believing in God, and not believing in God and both had changed their beliefs.

"I was so sure that God couldn't exist, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I just didn't want God to exist... I started to feel a change in me and before I knew it I was reading the Bible everyday and in church... now I don't know where I'd be without God"

"I believed in God all of my life, and I felt it. In church I felt it, alone I felt it. I knew. But as time went on something changed. I lost it, I started questioning things more and finally I asked 'why do I believe?'... it was what I knew, that was why. I could find anything to keep me believing, and I just don't anymore"

These aren't exact quotes, but as close to recollection as I can come. People can change, they just typically chose not to because it is hard to and they don't normally have a reason to. I know someone that started going to church because he fell for a girl that believed in God. I know a couple that ended up not working where the guy started off as a Christian and the girl as a sort of buttrock goth chick. Soon enough he started getting into death metal and she got interested in Jesus. They met in the middle, and by the end of the relationship he was an atheist and she went to church every week.

There are tons of reasons to change, and some people do. I'm probably not going to change, but that is because I choose not to. And, for me, it is an easy choice. For others it isn't so easy, it wasn't so easy for me 10 years ago, I can tell you that.

fnaqzna · 01-29-2004, 11:15 PM

It appears that you don't disagree nearly as much as you said earlier. We agree on quite a bit.

Your quotes say as much as I did. I just parsed it down. "I didn't want God to exist... I started to feel a change..." and "I felt it. I knew. ...something changed. I lost it."

They may have chose what they wanted to believe, but in the end when the belief came or went, it was not a conscious choice. It just happened.

Yeah... I know. I'm splitting hairs.

wilbjammin · 01-29-2004, 11:21 PM

Quote:

They may have chose what they wanted to believe, but in the end when the belief came or went, it was not a conscious choice.

Sure it was, they were open to the idea of change. You have to be open change on some level, or else you prevent yourself from changing. Ironically, it seems that the most rigid believers who seem to be the most devout or the most anti-religious tend to be the most insecure in their beliefs. If they let themselves get shaken, then they have a lot of choices to make. I've heard some very hollow words come out of both after being challenged in ways that they couldn't account for. But they stuck with it, and I think they actually forced themselves to keep believing... and, after some time passed, they even seemed like their old selves.

12-30-2003, 11:20 AM	#1 (permalink)
GakFace Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!! Location: IN, USA	You Don't Believe In God & I Would Like To Hear Why. I'm not sure that this exact thread has been mentioned, I looked, but I may have missed it... There have been threads asking why people believe in God, there have been threads asking why people no longer believe in God. There have also been threads of just arguements. What I would like to know is why you don't believe in a God. I'm not looking for flames. I am not attacking your belief in no God. I simply wish to broaden my knowledge.. the best way is to get direct input from people that don't believe. SO, with as much detail as needed... Why do you not believe in God. If you write me a book, write me a book! Please try to make your posts well thought out as I'd like to take these thoughts with me in life. Thank You -- GakFace ALSO! I don't really want any believers to post up here. I want this to just be informational if at all possible. This thread is not for debate with non-believer about what they have stated.. that deserves its own thread. This isn't a thread for the Dispute of Truth, but A Quest for Knowledge. Thanks Again! __________________ RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it. Last edited by GakFace; 12-30-2003 at 03:53 PM..

12-30-2003, 12:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	I'll probably come back to this and post in more detail, but put simply: I see no evidence what so ever that would lead me to believe in a god. I know I have used the following analogy many times on this board, but it is one which pretty much sums up by beliefs. Do you believe that there is an invisible purple llama living under my bed? No. Of course you don't! Why? Because there is no reason to! Do you have a proof that the invisible purple llama doesn't exist? No. Do you even have any evidence to show that the inivisible purple llama doesn't exist? No. So why don't you believe in it? The only real counter argument is the "I have personally felt God's presence" argument, and I'm afraid that that will never cut it with me. The other argument against it is reffering to historical events which could not have happened without god's intervention, lets not even mention creationism (a topic not worthy of discussion), but other events such as the resurection of christ, and the great flood. Again, a lack of evidence causes me to discount these things. "Modern theists might acknowledge that, when it comes to Baal and the Golden Calf, Thor and Wotan, Poseidon and Apollo, Mithras and Ammon Ra, they are actually atheists. We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." -Richard Dawkins __________________ Last edited by CSflim; 12-30-2003 at 01:00 PM..

12-30-2003, 01:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
wilbjammin * * *	Since existence is absurd, holding a believe in God is absurd. If God does existence in some form other than "all you see is a manifestation of God" (this doesn't speak of creation, intention, etc... all exists with NO explanation). The lack of explanation, the silence of the universe, lends me to have no reason to believe in God. To believe in God out of a fear of retribution and punishment is Bad Faith for me - the idea of a God that punishes me for not believing in him/her (God doesn't have a good pronoun really...) is also absurd. It sounds rather metaphorical also. The idea of heaven is just as absurd, is there inherent meaning to existence by simply living in heaven. I fail to see purpose in hell certainly, but I also fail to see it in the idea of heaven. And, since human existence is defined by an embodied mind, the believe in an afterlife is also absurd to me. When the mind and body dies, there isn't anything left. Have you ever met someone that was completely changed into a new person after having brain damage, surgery, or perhaps a debilitative mental illness? My experience in dealing with all of these kinds of people leads me to believe that no one has an essential essence (sounds almost redundant...), a pure spirit or anything like that - we are all very dependent on our flesh for defining who we are. With that gone, we are nothing. As such, you live and you die... in the end you are nothing, just like in the beginning (we are also born without essence... life is a process of creating our essence). Believing in God would do nothing for me; it would be hollow and feel empty. I still have reverence for existence, I am filled with wonder, and I certainly can love with all of my heart. __________________ Innominate.

12-30-2003, 03:39 PM	#5 (permalink)
KellyC Comment or else!! Location: Home sweet home	simply put: I dont need God in my life. I see some people (does not apply to all) believing in God because they need some sort of guidence in their life, how to live a good life, be a good person, etc.... Since I already have a good idea on how to be a good person and lead a good life, God is not much help to me. This may sound arrogant, but oh well... Thats just my main arguement, there are more reasons but i'll post more when I've thought them through. Edit: I've also hated the idea of confession. If you commited a "sin" then you have to confess, at least once a year. I used to do it up until i was 10, then my parents stop making me and i stopped doing it. The idea that you have confess to a priest, then he tells you to recite 50 Hail Marry, or some shit like that then you are forgiven is stupid. Reciting those graces does not make the sin go away, the sin is still there. So why bother? A better to repent for your sins would be to help others. At least thats what I think. Like Ben Franklin said "Serving God is doing good to men, pray is thought an easier service, therefore, more generaly chosen." (hope thats the exact words) Then theres the part about the priest being the middle-guy between me and God. I was raised to believe that God is everwhere so I can just "communicate" to God whenever, where ever, thus, the need to talk to the priest and then he'll relay the message to God is also stupid. The idea of heaven and hell seems absurd, too. Somewhere in the past, i was told that no matter how good you are, theres still a chance that you might not get into heaven, but of course theres always a 100% chance that you'll go to hell when you are bad. That, I find hard to swallow...so I didn't. My dad told us( me and sibblings) that the idea of heaven and hell were made up by the church to scare people back in the middle age. Can any one varify this? He used to study to become a priest when he was young but got drafted for war so i'm sure that he is reliable. But still, i'd like to know more about it. I've also try to date the words "hell" , "heaven" and "sin" but can only go as far as before 12th century, can any one help me find the exact date of those words? Many thanks in advance. __________________ Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe? Me: Shit happens. Last edited by KellyC; 01-02-2004 at 04:05 AM..

12-31-2003, 07:17 AM	#9 (permalink)
nanofever Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe. Location: UCSB	Csfilm, Paper, Fibrosa and Mantus all beat me to the punch of why I don't believe in god. Now my wolf like spirit guide Umbeke, he's as real as daylight and greets me each morning with pleasant conversation, sprinkled with advice and humerous comentary. Umbeke > God __________________ I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

12-30-2003, 12:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	GakFace I have been working on such a thread for about a month and a half now. It has been a slow process as I have been distracting myself quite often. Hopefully ill finnish it soon. In the mean time I will give a rough version of my current views. - God is not The Answer. It is the choice to stop asking questions. - The belief in god is a choice to end one's pursuit of knowledge with an answer. Yet god is not the final answer. - To reject god is to ask the next question. It is the choice to end one's pursuit of knowledge with a question.

12-31-2003, 02:22 AM	#7 (permalink)
papermachesatan Psycho Location: Texas	If you can present some credible evidence or anything giving some support to the existance of a God, then I will believe. Until then, I see no point in believing.

12-31-2003, 01:27 PM	#10 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	I don't "believe" in anything. I know a few things - not much. That's about it. Don't see any need for believing in things. __________________ create evolution

12-31-2003, 02:22 PM	#11 (permalink)
sixate Registered User Location: Somewhere in Ohio	Because the thought of an all knowing all seeing all powerful being who created everything and just sits above us all and does nothing with his great power is absolutely the most ridiculous thing that I have ever/will ever hear in my entire life. I live in a place called reality, and I welcome everyone else to come and join me. I have never believed ever since I was a child, and there is absolutely no chance that I will ever change. I'll add that the actions of religious people that I've had experiences with have only created my hatred toward all religion.

12-31-2003, 03:47 PM	#13 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I'm not one to buy into someone else's ideas. God is an idea because I have not seen any proof of Him. I have had it explained to me that to believe is to know Him, but that is obvious. It's a human trait that when you think about something, you start seeing it everywhere that you look. It's pure psychology. My girlfriend is hardcore religious, so you can bet we've had many discussions about this. I still think she's crazy and she still thinks I'll come to one day. I have an atom symbol tattooed on my chest. It basicly means that everything can be explained through science. Many argue that God IS science. To that I say 2 things. First, "Make up your mind." This was not the case 500 years ago. Second, I say, "It is very convenient to describe God as an all-encompassing blanket. There is no room for arguement. There is no choice. There is no freedom." Basicly, in order for me to believe in God, that fucker has gotta do some direct wish-granting like he did back in the day of the miracles and shit, as that big book describes. Until them, it's all randomized luck. FYI too.. I was raised Jewish, taken to church weekly by a Christian, lived in a neighborhood filled with Mormons, and I am next in line to conduct Pesah with my family. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals] Last edited by Halx; 12-31-2003 at 03:53 PM..

12-31-2003, 05:06 PM	#14 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	This is actually a rather silly question. Why do I not believe in X??? If X were to be "the easter bunny", i'd probably start laughing; if it were "the pink bunny walking behind me", I'd consider you quite insane; yet if it is "god", you expect me to give you a list of reasons? There is no reason to believe in God, simply because such a belief is unreasonable. The whole concept is alien to me - what makes "god" different from any of the other options I mentioned?

12-31-2003, 05:34 PM	#15 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Well now...."GOD" No I don't believe in an all powerful creature as described by the men of old, but there seems to be some form of energy, which we as humans can tap into. The names are irrelevant and unfortunately clutter an otherwise fascinating chunk of nature. Keyword "NATURE" as in natural. It seems unnatural to corrupt such a useful thing as energy, into a means to demean and ridicule each other. Pity the ingnorant, for they must suffer each other. The rest of us can sit back and smile at the trials of youth(young soul). I must agree that the term "god" is quickly becoming a signature of relative ignorance, but not stupidity. Many a genius of our age has carried strong faith in one entity or another, more power to 'em. I am quite pleased that I have been fortunate enough to leave the trappings of christian faith far behind me, as I am now free to explore an unencumbered growth of my soul thru science and nature....the "real" world as we humans can understand it. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

12-31-2003, 08:53 PM	#16 (permalink)
Mehoni Insane Location: Within the Woods	I was "raised" into Christianity. Baptized, went to church daycare, got "confirmed" at 14 and joined the local youth group. I have never belived in any god. I tried to feel somehing, tried to belive, but it just wasn't there. 404. I belive in things I can prove, understand and watch. Show me how thngs work, how things are created and evidence that supports your claims. I'm a science-nut though. I have a hard time associating with people who belivee in a religion... mostly because I can't understand them and they seem illogical to me. I'm not hiding this. I can be "friends" with them, but not _friends_. And no, I'm not hiding from people who has a different opinion. I'm always on the look out for something that change the way I look at the world. I seek things out. I need to know exactly why I can't believe in stuff and why I find it hard to believe. __________________ There seem to be countless rituals and cultural beliefs designed to alleviate their fear of a simple biological truth - all organisms eventually perish.

01-02-2004, 02:04 PM	#17 (permalink)
datalink7 Upright Location: Corvallis, OR, USA	Quite simple really... I see no evidence to suggest God exists. __________________ Ashes and diamons foe and friend we are all equal in the end.

01-03-2004, 09:44 PM	#18 (permalink)
Tman144 Tilted	I don't believe in God because all religions are wrong. All religions are localized, if God truly did speak to some tribe somewhere then it should have said the same thing to another group of people somewhere else. It make no sense for God to tell some people its a bear or a wolf and then tell other people that he is sending down his only son to die for them. Why would God create the entire world and then tell only a few people in one part of the world about him. Since all of these religions only spread locally, it leads me to think that they just pulled it out of their ass and that no such being exsisted. __________________ "Don't touch my belt, you Jesus freak!" -Mr. Gruff the Atheist Goat

01-04-2004, 03:18 PM	#19 (permalink)
anti fishstick Post-modernism meets Individualism AKA the Clash Location: oregon	i do not believe in god because of the implication of christianity. to have a religion based on fear is no religion for me. the stories in the bible are metaphorical and probably inaccurate hearsay. and why should i be punished for not believing in god. eternal damnation and hell? if i don't believe in god or christianity, then i also don't believe in heaven or hell. so their doctrines do not affect me. i tried believing in god once, and really accepting faith but it did nothing for me. it was fake and contrived and felt so hollow.. i cannot exist with external reverence. why should the way of god be inside a wooden structure, with a steeple, gable and stained glass windows we call a church? i am spiritual by my own means. and i am much happier this way. i can't get happiness from without, only within. i cannot ask god to give me happiness, only myself. i don't need god to show me moral goodness. __________________ And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. ~Anais Nin

01-04-2004, 09:55 PM	#21 (permalink)
jondotg Upright Location: TX	I know that someone may have already mentioned it, but I don't want to read all these "books", just give my two cents: There is a generally believed theory that the simplest answer is always the right one, and "God did it" is the simplest answer to every question...

01-11-2004, 04:02 PM	#24 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	The traditional belief is that God created us all, gave us free will, then demanded that we use free will to do what he says or face eternal punishment. God is omniscient, omnipotent, and he loves us all. He loves us all, he created us in his image then decided to punish those of us who strayed from the path he chose for us. If we were created in his image, then we would be similarly infallible. The presence of free will and sin contradict teh "fact" that we were created in God's image. If we are fallible, then God is fallible, and a fallible God is not omnipotent or onmniscient. With the traditinal notion of God discredited in my mind, Two options are left. Either God created us and let us do as we please wihtout interfering, or God does not exist. At this point I decided that either option is equally logical, and a lack of evidence to support either argument makes the argument itself pointless. With two equally illogical arguments facing off against each other, I decided that my energy should be devoted to earthly tasks, such as trying to make the world a better place, being accepting and loving toward others, and eradicating my annoying habit of ending sentences with prepositions. Whether or not God exists is irrelevant, I live my life as I think is best for me and everyone else. So, there you have it, a belief system that relies on nothing but earthly desires, and guides me toward good. Take Christ out of Christianity, and you remove teh reason to kill and die for religion and a way of life. I've joked with my brother that I've created an addition to the three main schools of thought. In addition to theist, agnostic, and atheist, I put apatheist, a combination of the words apathy and theist, meaning "One who does not care whether or not God exists, and will live their life the same way regardelss of the presence or absence of a supreme being.

01-13-2004, 11:41 AM	#27 (permalink)
vonstalhein Insane Location: Where You Live.	Put simply, i agree with CSfilm mostly, i don't believe in God because i don't need to. Often it seems to me believing in God can be trouble... __________________ No Win No Fee

01-14-2004, 11:05 PM	#28 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	Well here it is, a slightly more crystallized answer to the original question. Sorry it took so long. If I say that God created the universe, do you feel comforted that it was not the result of a cosmic accident? Why would you prefer God by your side rather then luck? Does it make you feel better to know that God will welcome you into the afterlife upon your death? Do you feel less alone in those dark hours if you know that God is with you? Why? The answer lies in our concept of God. The properties, attributes and give the word God a meaning, a definition, an essence. We describe god as conscious, good, loving, just, vengeful, helpful, all powerful and in many other ways. Only then does the evoking the word God bring significance to the statements mentioned above. Only then do we feel comforted that a good god created the world; that a just god is by our side; and that a loving god will be waiting at the gates of heaven. This is where the waves of faith break against reason. For every attribute that is given to god contradictions and arguments arise. A claim is made that god is good and all around us, then why do bad things happen? A claim is made that god just, then why is there injustice in this world? A claim is made that god loves us all, then why does he favor some and not others? A claim is made that god is vengeful, then why does he not bring his fist upon the wicked? A claim is made that god is helpful then why does he ignore people in need? Oh there are always answers and excuses but they never give us clarity. Eventually these God’s of ours grow into complex and detailed concepts, barely holding together, smoke and mirrors. There are further problems. God is often used to fill gaps in our knowledge. To answer those difficult questions which take lifetimes to illuminate. There will always be gaps in our knowledge, yet our knowledge is always expanding and what we do not understand today may be clear as day tomorrow. God is not an answer; it is simply a choice to stop asking questions. Some one will always choose to ask those questions and eventually answers will come. So when we so readily use God as an answer we must realize that sooner or later God will have to be pushed aside to make room for knowledge. The essence of god cannot be captured. The role of god cannot be known. The more questions we ask the more distant God becomes. In the end though a particular proverb always gets me. “There are no atheists in the trenches.” Which bring everything into perspective for me. God is there because we cannot always bear not knowing how this world came into being. God is there because we cannot always bear entrusting our lives to statistics. God is there because we cannot always question what is on the other side of the veil. God is there because we cannot always bear being alone. God is whatever we want it to be. The concept of God, just like anything else, can be used for whatever purpose we desire, good or evil. Therefore I must conclude that while God is a very useful tool for our society, it is not pure, it fades from our grasp if we look at it hard enough. Therefore I must continue looking for that which is solid and true, that will show us our path, if such a path even exists. Cheers Last edited by Mantus; 01-14-2004 at 11:12 PM..

01-15-2004, 12:37 AM	#29 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	Mantus, although I don't want to devalue your response... the proverb you mentioned in your last paragraph is bullocks. You shouldn't bother explaining it, simply because it's not true. Go ask any soldier that's been in combat.

01-16-2004, 09:45 PM	#30 (permalink)
Johnny Rotten lost and found Location: Berkeley	I don't believe in "God" or any perfect being. That said, I do believe that what we understand as reality is only the tip of the iceberg--or the bottom of it. I don't think that I will cease to exist after my body dies, but I'm not bothered by the possibility that I'm wrong and my self will be erased when I leave this mortal coil. I'm fine with either event. If something does indeed exist beyond the veil, I firmly believe its parameters are far beyond our understanding. Yet I don't think it's a paradise or reward of some kind--just a different place. Ever onward, almost like a Buddhist wheel. __________________ "The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

01-17-2004, 05:30 AM	#31 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	God is there because we are ignorant. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha Last edited by tecoyah; 01-28-2004 at 06:26 AM..

01-27-2004, 08:04 PM	#32 (permalink)
Andy Upright Location: Cambridge, MA	I'll start off by mentioning that I don't believe in free will. There's threads on that if you are curious, but I am in total agreement. Based on that, though, it also means that we really are in no control over our actions. Everything is orchestrated and based from past events. If that is the case, then how can God judge us and send us to Heaven or Hell? If you are a murderer, that's because he "created" a murderer. Why should you be punished? And why should you be rewarded if he made you a nice person? Also, so much of what religious people say about god is entrenched in hypocrisy. I've often asked why God is not to blame for horrid events in the world, often using terrorism as an example. Every time, I am told that after having created us, God allows us to exercise free will and does not change the events in the world. But these same people are the ones who will say "Thank God!" when something good happens to them. Thank him for what? YOU just said he doesn't affect events in the real world. These are the same people who pray and ASK God to change things for them. Does this make any sense? All of a sudden, God is reponsible for all the good in the world, but none of the bad. Good events are not a result of free will, but bad events are. Do I see a double standard here? Why is it that people are comforted by praying if they are so content in absolving God from all blame? Why are people so willing to believe that they are special and that God will do something for them, even if he supposedly doesn't use his power to change the course of events in the world? Are people just blind? Do they merely see what they want to see, and believe what they want to believe? Why don't you ask the people who saw the Virgin Mary in a fence post in Australia, a stain in a window in Boston, and in a tree stump in New Jersey? For a virgin, she really gets around. P.S. I hate when an athlete is interviewed after winning a big game and credits God. Hello?!? Don't you think the other team prayed as well? Maybe they should all stop lifting weights and practicing and just focus on praying. See what happens then. Last edited by Andy; 01-27-2004 at 08:07 PM..

01-28-2004, 11:55 PM	#33 (permalink)
Ogre840 Banned Location: OlyWa	Few reasons. I've asked for help. Nothing. I've asked for signs. Nothing. I've been driven away by religious fanatics, I hate them. There have been hundreds of diffrent gods, it is just a form of dealing with death. if you have hopes of an after life, you're not afraid to die. People used this thought to scare and control the masses. People use this to wage "holy wars" on people with diffrent beliefs. If there was a god, and he wanted us to all believe in him, there wouldn't be other religions. And my final piece of evidence. I've challenged him. He hasn't done shit!

01-29-2004, 09:07 AM	#34 (permalink)
davik Irradiation for fun and profit Location: Controlled access area	I'll attack this from the point of view of a scientist (since I'm a physicist). I think my initial atheism came from the fact that religion is absurd; there isn't a single religion that I have heard of that hasn't been disproven time and again by science and had to re-write its view of either creation or the universe. This, in my opinion, invalidates the religion as they apparently don't have the true word of any god (unless you assume that the Word is wrong, and that's just messy). Expanding to spirituality (belief in god, not religion), I look at it as choosing a starting point. No matter which theory of creation you choose, god or the big bang, there comes a point in time where one must take a leap of faith and assume an effect without a cause. Either god existed and nothing came before, or the big bang existed and nothing came before. From a scientific point of view both are equally valid assumptions, which is to say that they are theories without any supporting or conflicting evidence. Personally I chose atheism partly because it makes more intuitive sense and partly because of the somewhat irrationally strong loathing of religion I picked up when I was younger. __________________ "Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain

01-29-2004, 10:30 PM	#35 (permalink)
fnaqzna Meat Popsicle Location: Left Coast	Belief isn't a choice. You either do or you don't.

01-29-2004, 10:51 PM	#37 (permalink)
fnaqzna Meat Popsicle Location: Left Coast	Think about it. You don't believe in god because you can't find a reason to. Even if you wanted to, you couldn't. Sure, you could delude yourself and go through the motions but deep down you know it wouldn't be honest. You can't just simply turn it on. I tried. I went through the motions for years. Went to church, read the scripture. I wanted to believe, but it never truly came to me and I felt dishonest the entire time. Today, I call myself atheist, but I'm still searching for something that resonates.

01-29-2004, 11:15 PM	#39 (permalink)
fnaqzna Meat Popsicle Location: Left Coast	It appears that you don't disagree nearly as much as you said earlier. We agree on quite a bit. Your quotes say as much as I did. I just parsed it down. "I didn't want God to exist... I started to feel a change..." and "I felt it. I knew. ...something changed. I lost it." They may have chose what they wanted to believe, but in the end when the belief came or went, it was not a conscious choice. It just happened. Yeah... I know. I'm splitting hairs. Last edited by fnaqzna; 01-29-2004 at 11:21 PM..