Does God have Free Will? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Tman144 · 10-21-2003, 09:37 PM

If God knows everything thats going to happen, then He knows what He is going to do in the future. And if you know what your going to do, then you don't really have a choice, you already know. So, does that mean that God cannot choose what happens, and that He is only playing His part inthe universe. This assumes God exists, and He is a personal God.

yellowgowild · 10-21-2003, 09:57 PM

This also assumes that God is within our concept of Time? My guess would be that a God in that situation would make it so he didnt know, maybe by splitting his conciousness into a billion different lesser versions so he could experience himself from infinite perspectives.

Killconey · 10-21-2003, 10:57 PM

I think God has free will and that is why he knows what is going to happen. He knows what he wants to do and he knows that he's going to do it and therefore he knows the future.

I also agree with yellowgowild that God's perception of time probably isn't the same as ours. I think that God sees time as more of the entire line while we only see the spot that we're in.

The_Dude · 10-21-2003, 11:05 PM

nice question. this would mean that there is a power above god (where god came from) and the ladder would go up infinately.

if anybody can see anybody's future, that negates free will. so if god can see the future of himself, then he loses free will and becomes a pawn like the rest of us (who is the master player?).

i really dont think that religion can explain this well.

ARTelevision · 10-22-2003, 12:57 AM

the thread starter's statement is about how language works - not about anything else. we often see contradiction or paradox in things when the contradictions and paradoxes actually have to do with language and the arbitrary definitions of words and concepts.

littlewild · 10-22-2003, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tman144
If God knows everything thats going to happen, then He knows what He is going to do in the future. And if you know what your going to do, then you don't really have a choice, you already know. So, does that mean that God cannot choose what happens, and that He is only playing His part inthe universe. This assumes God exists, and He is a personal God.

That too assumes that God reasons as we do and that God is limited by Time.

Can God create a boulder so large that He Himself cannot lift it?

Human reasoning is inherently flawed.

CryptikSoul · 10-22-2003, 01:21 PM

I'd like to think that an all-knowing God would be able to see ALL possible futures, all possible outcomes for all possible events that can take place, and knowing THAT then he can decide which is the best future he should follow, so in that sense he can both see the future and yet have a choice on how to act. La la la . . .

And the boulder thing, think of it like this: God would have infinite power, therefore he could create a boulder of infinite mass, and yet since his power is infinite he would still be able to lift it. So there.

KnifeMissile · 10-22-2003, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by littlewild
Can God create a boulder so large that He Himself cannot lift it?

Human reasoning is inherently flawed.

Is human reasoning so flawed that our reasons to belive in God are flawed?

Nisses · 10-22-2003, 02:41 PM

KnifeMissle: you deserve a good beating

If you want human logic on God, how about this:
he has free will and he can see the future, they're not mutually exclusive

think of it this way:
you have a dilemma, you can pick 2 possible ways to solve it.
You can look into the future to see what both ways will have as immediate and long-term effects.
You weigh both against eachother and decide on the best.

How about you look into the immediate future, see which one you are going to pick as the best one and save yourself trouble

Does this mean you don't have free will? No, you can still opt for the other solution, just to spice things up

Tman144 · 10-22-2003, 06:54 PM

So for God to be all-knowing, he would have had to decide everything that was going to happen all at once, aka the Divine Plan. That means that God created everything that has and is going to happen all at once. So its already been decided everything I'm going to do. This is why religion is so depressing for me.

happyraul · 10-22-2003, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nisses
KnifeMissle: you deserve a good beating

If you want human logic on God, how about this:
he has free will and he can see the future, they're not mutually exclusive

think of it this way:
you have a dilemma, you can pick 2 possible ways to solve it.
You can look into the future to see what both ways will have as immediate and long-term effects.
You weigh both against eachother and decide on the best.

How about you look into the immediate future, see which one you are going to pick as the best one and save yourself trouble

Does this mean you don't have free will? No, you can still opt for the other solution, just to spice things up

Looking into the future also means you know which choice you are going to make, so how do you have a choice? If you did have a choice then when you saw yourself making a choice that wasn't future. The point is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to see the future AND have a choice. Just draw a truth table.

Nisses · 10-22-2003, 11:46 PM

I disagree,

you can see in the future, so you can see where different things lead when you pick them. That doesn't mean you can't pick on your own.
In effect you can see multiple futures because of it

littlewild · 10-23-2003, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CryptikSoul
I'd like to think that an all-knowing God would be able to see ALL possible futures, all possible outcomes for all possible events that can take place, and knowing THAT then he can decide which is the best future he should follow, so in that sense he can both see the future and yet have a choice on how to act. La la la . . .

And the boulder thing, think of it like this: God would have infinite power, therefore he could create a boulder of infinite mass, and yet since his power is infinite he would still be able to lift it. So there.

Not sure if you got my question. I am not saying that God cannot create a boulder of infinite mass.

I am asking if God can create a boulder that He Himself cannot lift it. If He can't then there is something that God cannot do, if He can then He is not omnipotent.

That is just to illustarte the fact that there are certain things that the human mind is unable to fully comprehend.

Knifemissile, yes. There are missing pieces in our understanding and flaws in our logic. Can a finite mind truly grasp the infinite?

littlewild · 10-23-2003, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nisses
KnifeMissle: you deserve a good beating

If you want human logic on God, how about this:
he has free will and he can see the future, they're not mutually exclusive

think of it this way:
you have a dilemma, you can pick 2 possible ways to solve it.
You can look into the future to see what both ways will have as immediate and long-term effects.
You weigh both against eachother and decide on the best.

How about you look into the immediate future, see which one you are going to pick as the best one and save yourself trouble

Does this mean you don't have free will? No, you can still opt for the other solution, just to spice things up

The point to note here is that we, human beings are limited by Time. God is not. He was there and is here and will continue to be. What does the future mean to Someone who is not constrained by time?

Aias · 10-23-2003, 05:02 AM

There is a main problem with assumptions here. You are assuming that BECAUSE God can see the future that he must make it be. This is a false assertion.

Let us make a few basic arguments first.

If you assert that God created the universe then you would assert that he created matter and space.
When matter moves through space he have change, or more specifically TIME. So we can now assert that God created time as well.

Since God was present before the creation of matter or space, he can stand outside and independent of matter and space.
Since God can stand both outside of matter and outside of space he can also stand outside of time.
Since he stands outside of time he can see the beginning and the end and every moment in between all at once. In this sense he is not only everywhere, but also everywhen.

Here is my argument.
Let us say that you are observing a painter. Let us also say that you have a VERY keen eye. You have correctly recorded the exact number of brush strokes made by the painter, the number of colors he used, the number of times he dipped his brush. Let us go even farther in saying that you even know the exact chemical make up of every molecule of paint. Let's stretch it even farther and say that you knew what the painting would look like after it was finished.

What can we say now? You clearly know more about the painting than the painter, right? Does that mean that YOU painted it? of course not!

In the same way God can see the end without forcing humans to behave in a certain way. Humans still have choice and the ability to choose situations based upon the outcome they desire. Just because God looks over out shoulder at the lives we lead, does not mean that he decides for us. Even if he understands more about those lives than WE do, it does not mean that he lives our lives for us or makes us do things.

There are plenty more examples, but I don't want to beat a dead horse by making this post long or annoying with repetition. If anyone is interested in more information I have on this topic you can mail me your questions. I am glad to share my observations with any, even those who disagree. We learn by questioning, otherwise we are blind beggars.

Aias · 10-23-2003, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by littlewild
That too assumes that God reasons as we do and that God is limited by Time.

Can God create a boulder so large that He Himself cannot lift it?

Human reasoning is inherently flawed.

I agree littlewild. Our reason may be limited. But this question is a poor example of why our reason is limited.
That question is flawed. It is illogical within itself. One cannot use Reason or Logic to answer it because it is illogical.

What happens when a Unstoppable force encounters an Unmoveable force?

The question or the inability to answer it proves nothing for or against human reason.

Kyo · 10-23-2003, 06:16 AM

These kinds of arguments have the tendency to degenerate into "our minds are simply unable to comprehend due to the contraints in which we live," which, though a view I support, is not particularly satisfying or helpful.

- Aias: However, if you knew how the painting would come out, you already know every choice the painter is going to make - in fact, since God stands outside of time, you could, in a way, say that the painting has already been painted the moment the painter begins to paint it. I realize that 'the moment' and 'begins' are meaningless in a time-independant system, but I can't think of a better way to describe it. Therefore, every 'choice' that the painter believes he has, is actually following a path towards the 'future' that you have already seen - you know how the painting is going to turn out, so it can't possibly turn out any other way. Nobody is forcing the painter to paint a certain way, no, but because the future, the result, has already been seen, the painter has no choice but to produce that future.

- Nisses: You can see the consequences of your choices, yes - but a true omniscience also indicates that you know exactly what choices you and everyone else makes! You know everything. What has already happened, what is currently happening, what will happen, anywhere and everywhere, simultaneously. So no matter what choice you make, God knows you would have made the choice - therefore making 'free will' an illusion.

Nisses · 10-23-2003, 06:29 AM

an illusion that is well kept I would add.

So far I haven't seen anybody claim his free will was violated. So in essence, yes, free will as seen by God might be an illusion, but from the mortal pov it doesn't affect us, since we don't know anything. It makes for a free will substitute all the same.

That still doesn't mean it holds true for God.
Hell, since God exists beyond space and time, who's to say his power in that place is as big as it is inside the universe?

And yes, I do understand your point of view, I just don't think it holds true for God.

Killconey · 10-23-2003, 09:51 AM

I really don't get the problem here. If we're thinking of God of being time-independant, why don't we just think of all of history as a part of God's plan. He made the plan, so therefore he obviously has free will, and if something comes up in what we consider the future and he acts in a certain way because that is the way he must act, who cares? He already made the choice. All of these details we are debating as to what he can see in the future don't really matter because he already acted.

Tman144 · 10-23-2003, 11:25 AM

Killconey, so if I kill you, nobody should get mad at me because God made it so that I should kill you. People who believe in the bible have no right to tell others how to live because God knows its going to happen.

This goes to my next question, how can God test us if he already knows the answer? After reading the book of Job, I began to think, why didn't God just tell Satan as he was first walking up to God what was going to happen before Satan asked his question?

CSflim · 10-23-2003, 12:05 PM

Me: "Hey God, you know everything, right?"
God: "Of course, my child"
Me: "So if I said something, you would be able to tell me if it was truthful or not?"
God: "That is correct"
Me: "So if I said, 2 + 2 = 4..."
God: "..I would know that such a statement was true"
Me: "and if I said 6 * 9 = 42..."
God: "..I would know that to be false"
Me: "and you will always be able to answer correctly?"
God: "Well I am God you know..."
Me: "oooh I've got one..."
God: "Go on..."
Me: "This statement is false"
God: "That is...ummm...well...." *God's head explodes*
Me: "Shit! I just killed god!"

Linguistic arguments are just that. You must be very careful when you try to deduce conclusions from them.

If God did exist, his ability to "know the future" would not remove his ability to have free will.
On the other hand, God's ability to know the future would remove our ability to exercise free will.
The difference being, God would not exist within "time", but of course, we do.

Can God create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?
Can God draw a square circle?
Can God come up with a proof that 2+2=5?

All meaningless arguments, which do nothing to disprove the notion of an omnipotent/omniscient God.

prosequence · 10-23-2003, 06:25 PM

Did anybody ask God what the answers was?

Kyo · 10-23-2003, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tman144
Killconey, so if I kill you, nobody should get mad at me because God made it so that I should kill you. People who believe in the bible have no right to tell others how to live because God knows its going to happen.

This goes to my next question, how can God test us if he already knows the answer? After reading the book of Job, I began to think, why didn't God just tell Satan as he was first walking up to God what was going to happen before Satan asked his question?

Using God as a scapegoat is incorrect - knowing what is occuring is not the same as perpetrating the crime. Though many argue that if God exists then he is either malicious or irresponsible.

From a practical sense, we can't blame God, therefore we must blame the mortal agent. If you pull the trigger, we put you in jail or in the chair, because we can. We can't punish God, but we can punish people.

In the end, modern society in general functions smoothly only if we consider it independent of God's intervention. After all - if all of our actions are God's doing, then He is the one damning the sinners to Hell, not the sinners themselves, and that just doesn't make any sense at all.

At this point, I suppose a real believer would jump in with something about mere humans not understanding God's grand scheme, etc. But I'm not a believer so I'm not going to go there.

Also, I suggest being careful when you make sweeping semi-hate statements regarding an entire group's rights - especially when you say little or nothing to support your claims and lack any authority to dictate said rights.

Killconey · 10-23-2003, 10:11 PM

Tman, if you were to kill me it would be because you freely chose to kill me. While God would indeed know that you were going to choose to kill me, he didn't make you do it.

To attempt to answer your second question, I'm going to glean from the wisdom of the Matrix. The Oracle told Neo that what he chose wasn't as important as why he chose it. Perhaps in the book of Job it wasn't Job's loyalty or a bet with Satan that was the point, but rather the lesson Job would glean from this experience.

Now my only question is: What would you gain from killing me?

anti fishstick · 10-24-2003, 01:05 AM

my view on god's view of time is that it is in not a straight line or 'timeline' but a circle. god can see the past present and future all in one instant. or, past present and future are existing all at the same 'time'.

these are just my wacky crazy ideas anyway

iktoweya · 10-24-2003, 07:00 AM

God no longer has an agenda after creating humans. I mean he is the one who breathes life into humans and talks to the few who are willing to listen.

The fact of the matter is that God doesnt have to make choices. that part of his existance is over. he left humans with free will to do as they please. I believe he can see the future but i dont think that the future he sees is the same kind. i believe what he sees is a branch of futures thats gets smaller and smaller as we make decisions in our life. he has no control over what we choose. Thats obvious because not everyone worships him.

Tman144 · 10-24-2003, 10:05 AM

Tman, if you were to kill me it would be because you freely chose to kill me. While God would indeed know that you were going to choose to kill me, he didn't make you do it.

God would actually leave me with no choice about killing you if I did it. Since he created everything, he knows that his first action of creation will lead up to me killing you. The chain of events leading up to me killing you would have already been predetermined as soon as time began. The only way to make it my choice is that God didn't know what I was going to do.

And about that semi-hate comment, I had just finishing an argument with a person who was trying to convert me so I was a little angry. I was trying to tell her that it would be useless because God had already decided if I was going to heaven or hell.

Kyo · 10-24-2003, 10:06 AM

iktoweya: You're missing the point. Whether or not God has any direct influence in our actions, he is omniscient. Therefore, he already knows what choices we are going to make. So regardless of what paths you take, it was really the only path you could have taken - since the future is already known.

MacGnG · 10-24-2003, 07:30 PM

if he wants to....

yes he does, or had the initial choice to decide weather he does or doesnt so he did.

we are in his image, so we do also

Xell101 · 10-25-2003, 09:02 AM

Yes, but technically no. Why would such a being intentionally take the inferior options if it didn't suit his objective/goals/whims.

Killconey · 10-26-2003, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tman144

God would actually leave me with no choice about killing you if I did it. Since he created everything, he knows that his first action of creation will lead up to me killing you. The chain of events leading up to me killing you would have already been predetermined as soon as time began. The only way to make it my choice is that God didn't know what I was going to do.

[/B]

This conflict goes back a lot further than most people realize. If God wanted to actively prevent you from killing me, he would need to: A, take away your free will or B, eliminate you from existance. If you think about time as an endless line where we are just a small dot, this could lead to infinite problems.

Suppose that you do kill me. That action would indeed be bad, but maybe you're going to have a son who will cure cancer. By eliminating you, God would have also eliminated the cure for cancer. Or perhaps my death will cause someone else to turn to God or to rethink the way they are living their life. By keeping me alive, God would have damned that person.

This is why I think that God does not take an active hand in the way we live our lives. I believe that time is a delicate thing, much like a game of Jenga, and if you remove one piece you are putting the entire structure at risk.

Interestingly enough, I do not believe that this limits God in any way, nor does it limit your free choice. You can choose to kill me or not kill me, but God just so happen's to know what you are going to choose and has already planned to compensate for that. Once again, its like in the Matrix where the Oracle knew what Neo was going to do but Neo still had to choose to do it.

archer2371 · 10-26-2003, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by prosequence
Did anybody ask God what the answers was?

LOL, even I had to laugh at that one.

cliche · 10-26-2003, 12:38 PM

Don't know if anyone's read this, but I think it's a beautiful explanation:

Smullyan's "Is God a Taoist?"

happyraul · 10-26-2003, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Killconey
If you think about time as an endless line where we are just a small dot, this could lead to infinite problems.

Suppose that you do kill me. That action would indeed be bad, but maybe you're going to have a son who will cure cancer. By eliminating you, God would have also eliminated the cure for cancer. Or perhaps my death will cause someone else to turn to God or to rethink the way they are living their life. By keeping me alive, God would have damned that person.

Though messing with time, as in God removes from existance some person, would cause changes the way you described, I do not see them as "problems." Further, given that not getting rid of someone would change the universe in the same manner, the net effect is nothing. God makes it as though someone never existed: stuff happens, God doesn't do anything: stuff happens. So this does nothing to support the existance/nonexistance of God, nor does it suggest that God does or does not mess with the universe as described.

Tman144 · 10-26-2003, 04:09 PM

Killconey,

Your missing the underlying problem. In God's mind, vision, whatever, you have already been killed if I "decide" to kill you. Its not me deciding, its me going along a certian path because the outcome of my life has been seen and decided at the beginning of time.

Killconey · 10-26-2003, 11:03 PM

Oh no. You're deciding to go along the path. Its just that its really annoying and frustrating trying to figure out why you're going along the path. And it hasn't been decided since the beginning of time, it was simply compensated for at the beginning of time.

PredeconInferno · 10-26-2003, 11:34 PM

I've always thought of god as being apart from our world anyway. I believe that there is a god, yes. But I believe that that god started everything then said "go play now" so that his perception of time and all that is much different than ours. I just don't think he cares enough.

Reese · 10-27-2003, 03:21 AM

Kill Coney, First off you shouldn't assume that God doesn't take an active stance in some situations. If He does have free will, then his free will does allow him to interject and stop you from doing something.

Also with that said, God is all knowing so he would already know that by killing you he stopped the cure for cancer. Actually who's to say that he doesn't do this all the time?

I am going to play devils-advocate, and argue that if God does know everything from everywhen, Then, why did he create it in the first place, How did Noah talk him into changing his plans and allow him to build the ark and restart the whole thing when God was prepared to destroy it all?

seebee · 10-27-2003, 11:49 AM

God first of all is the creator of all that is. Regardless of one's definition of time, it is still something made, or at least attached to something made, (as in the definition that Time is the measurement of motion.) God is outside of time, it is something made by Him, so there is not a then, hereafter, or any of that. God simply is; we need to apply times to Him because of our deficient reason, and understanding.

He is the first Will. Where we would apply Free Will to ourselves, it doesn't hold for Him. Free will in the cases of such things as doing right and wrong isn't applicable to God, because he is the First and highest Good, his reason has no fault, he is simple and perfect.

(I made this reply somewhat late in the discussion, so I am not certain if I've added anything to it, yet. Sorry for that.)

debaser · 10-27-2003, 01:56 PM

If God is perfect then he does not have free will, he must be perfect.

10-21-2003, 09:37 PM	#1 (permalink)
Tman144 Tilted	Does God have Free Will? If God knows everything thats going to happen, then He knows what He is going to do in the future. And if you know what your going to do, then you don't really have a choice, you already know. So, does that mean that God cannot choose what happens, and that He is only playing His part inthe universe. This assumes God exists, and He is a personal God.

10-21-2003, 10:57 PM	#3 (permalink)
Killconey Crazy Location: Various places in the Midwest, all depending on when I'm posting.	I think God has free will and that is why he knows what is going to happen. He knows what he wants to do and he knows that he's going to do it and therefore he knows the future. I also agree with yellowgowild that God's perception of time probably isn't the same as ours. I think that God sees time as more of the entire line while we only see the spot that we're in. __________________ Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

10-21-2003, 11:05 PM	#4 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	nice question. this would mean that there is a power above god (where god came from) and the ladder would go up infinately. if anybody can see anybody's future, that negates free will. so if god can see the future of himself, then he loses free will and becomes a pawn like the rest of us (who is the master player?). i really dont think that religion can explain this well. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

10-22-2003, 12:57 AM	#5 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	the thread starter's statement is about how language works - not about anything else. we often see contradiction or paradox in things when the contradictions and paradoxes actually have to do with language and the arbitrary definitions of words and concepts. __________________ create evolution

10-22-2003, 01:21 PM	#7 (permalink)
CryptikSoul Tilted Location: Windsor, ON	I'd like to think that an all-knowing God would be able to see ALL possible futures, all possible outcomes for all possible events that can take place, and knowing THAT then he can decide which is the best future he should follow, so in that sense he can both see the future and yet have a choice on how to act. La la la . . . And the boulder thing, think of it like this: God would have infinite power, therefore he could create a boulder of infinite mass, and yet since his power is infinite he would still be able to lift it. So there. __________________ "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat. "We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

10-21-2003, 09:57 PM	#2 (permalink)
yellowgowild Psycho Location: Tampa	This also assumes that God is within our concept of Time? My guess would be that a God in that situation would make it so he didnt know, maybe by splitting his conciousness into a billion different lesser versions so he could experience himself from infinite perspectives.

10-22-2003, 02:41 PM	#9 (permalink)
Nisses Shade Location: Belgium	KnifeMissle: you deserve a good beating If you want human logic on God, how about this: he has free will and he can see the future, they're not mutually exclusive think of it this way: you have a dilemma, you can pick 2 possible ways to solve it. You can look into the future to see what both ways will have as immediate and long-term effects. You weigh both against eachother and decide on the best. How about you look into the immediate future, see which one you are going to pick as the best one and save yourself trouble Does this mean you don't have free will? No, you can still opt for the other solution, just to spice things up __________________ Moderation should be moderately moderated.

10-22-2003, 06:54 PM	#10 (permalink)
Tman144 Tilted	So for God to be all-knowing, he would have had to decide everything that was going to happen all at once, aka the Divine Plan. That means that God created everything that has and is going to happen all at once. So its already been decided everything I'm going to do. This is why religion is so depressing for me.

10-22-2003, 11:46 PM	#12 (permalink)
Nisses Shade Location: Belgium	I disagree, you can see in the future, so you can see where different things lead when you pick them. That doesn't mean you can't pick on your own. In effect you can see multiple futures because of it __________________ Moderation should be moderately moderated.

10-23-2003, 05:02 AM	#15 (permalink)
Aias Upright Location: by the waters of Babylon...	There is a main problem with assumptions here. You are assuming that BECAUSE God can see the future that he must make it be. This is a false assertion. Let us make a few basic arguments first. If you assert that God created the universe then you would assert that he created matter and space. When matter moves through space he have change, or more specifically TIME. So we can now assert that God created time as well. Since God was present before the creation of matter or space, he can stand outside and independent of matter and space. Since God can stand both outside of matter and outside of space he can also stand outside of time. Since he stands outside of time he can see the beginning and the end and every moment in between all at once. In this sense he is not only everywhere, but also everywhen. Here is my argument. Let us say that you are observing a painter. Let us also say that you have a VERY keen eye. You have correctly recorded the exact number of brush strokes made by the painter, the number of colors he used, the number of times he dipped his brush. Let us go even farther in saying that you even know the exact chemical make up of every molecule of paint. Let's stretch it even farther and say that you knew what the painting would look like after it was finished. What can we say now? You clearly know more about the painting than the painter, right? Does that mean that YOU painted it? of course not! In the same way God can see the end without forcing humans to behave in a certain way. Humans still have choice and the ability to choose situations based upon the outcome they desire. Just because God looks over out shoulder at the lives we lead, does not mean that he decides for us. Even if he understands more about those lives than WE do, it does not mean that he lives our lives for us or makes us do things. There are plenty more examples, but I don't want to beat a dead horse by making this post long or annoying with repetition. If anyone is interested in more information I have on this topic you can mail me your questions. I am glad to share my observations with any, even those who disagree. We learn by questioning, otherwise we are blind beggars. __________________ But I will seek the meadows by the shore: There will I wash and Purge these stains, if so I may appease Athena's wrath. Then will I find some lonely place, where I may hide this sword, beyond all others cursed, buried where none may see it, deep in earth. Last edited by Aias; 10-23-2003 at 05:06 AM..

10-23-2003, 06:16 AM	#17 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	These kinds of arguments have the tendency to degenerate into "our minds are simply unable to comprehend due to the contraints in which we live," which, though a view I support, is not particularly satisfying or helpful. - Aias: However, if you knew how the painting would come out, you already know every choice the painter is going to make - in fact, since God stands outside of time, you could, in a way, say that the painting has already been painted the moment the painter begins to paint it. I realize that 'the moment' and 'begins' are meaningless in a time-independant system, but I can't think of a better way to describe it. Therefore, every 'choice' that the painter believes he has, is actually following a path towards the 'future' that you have already seen - you know how the painting is going to turn out, so it can't possibly turn out any other way. Nobody is forcing the painter to paint a certain way, no, but because the future, the result, has already been seen, the painter has no choice but to produce that future. - Nisses: You can see the consequences of your choices, yes - but a true omniscience also indicates that you know exactly what choices you and everyone else makes! You know everything. What has already happened, what is currently happening, what will happen, anywhere and everywhere, simultaneously. So no matter what choice you make, God knows you would have made the choice - therefore making 'free will' an illusion. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out. Last edited by Kyo; 10-23-2003 at 06:18 AM..

10-23-2003, 06:29 AM	#18 (permalink)
Nisses Shade Location: Belgium	an illusion that is well kept I would add. So far I haven't seen anybody claim his free will was violated. So in essence, yes, free will as seen by God might be an illusion, but from the mortal pov it doesn't affect us, since we don't know anything. It makes for a free will substitute all the same. That still doesn't mean it holds true for God. Hell, since God exists beyond space and time, who's to say his power in that place is as big as it is inside the universe? And yes, I do understand your point of view, I just don't think it holds true for God. __________________ Moderation should be moderately moderated.

10-23-2003, 09:51 AM	#19 (permalink)
Killconey Crazy Location: Various places in the Midwest, all depending on when I'm posting.	I really don't get the problem here. If we're thinking of God of being time-independant, why don't we just think of all of history as a part of God's plan. He made the plan, so therefore he obviously has free will, and if something comes up in what we consider the future and he acts in a certain way because that is the way he must act, who cares? He already made the choice. All of these details we are debating as to what he can see in the future don't really matter because he already acted. __________________ Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

10-23-2003, 11:25 AM	#20 (permalink)
Tman144 Tilted	Killconey, so if I kill you, nobody should get mad at me because God made it so that I should kill you. People who believe in the bible have no right to tell others how to live because God knows its going to happen. This goes to my next question, how can God test us if he already knows the answer? After reading the book of Job, I began to think, why didn't God just tell Satan as he was first walking up to God what was going to happen before Satan asked his question?

10-23-2003, 12:05 PM	#21 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	Me: "Hey God, you know everything, right?" God: "Of course, my child" Me: "So if I said something, you would be able to tell me if it was truthful or not?" God: "That is correct" Me: "So if I said, 2 + 2 = 4..." God: "..I would know that such a statement was true" Me: "and if I said 6 * 9 = 42..." God: "..I would know that to be false" Me: "and you will always be able to answer correctly?" God: "Well I am God you know..." Me: "oooh I've got one..." God: "Go on..." Me: "This statement is false" God: "That is...ummm...well...." God's head explodes Me: "Shit! I just killed god!" Linguistic arguments are just that. You must be very careful when you try to deduce conclusions from them. If God did exist, his ability to "know the future" would not remove his ability to have free will. On the other hand, God's ability to know the future would remove our ability to exercise free will. The difference being, God would not exist within "time", but of course, we do. Can God create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? Can God draw a square circle? Can God come up with a proof that 2+2=5? All meaningless arguments, which do nothing to disprove the notion of an omnipotent/omniscient God. __________________

10-23-2003, 06:25 PM	#22 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	Did anybody ask God what the answers was? __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

10-23-2003, 10:11 PM	#24 (permalink)
Killconey Crazy Location: Various places in the Midwest, all depending on when I'm posting.	Tman, if you were to kill me it would be because you freely chose to kill me. While God would indeed know that you were going to choose to kill me, he didn't make you do it. To attempt to answer your second question, I'm going to glean from the wisdom of the Matrix. The Oracle told Neo that what he chose wasn't as important as why he chose it. Perhaps in the book of Job it wasn't Job's loyalty or a bet with Satan that was the point, but rather the lesson Job would glean from this experience. Now my only question is: What would you gain from killing me? __________________ Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

10-24-2003, 01:05 AM	#25 (permalink)
anti fishstick Post-modernism meets Individualism AKA the Clash Location: oregon	my view on god's view of time is that it is in not a straight line or 'timeline' but a circle. god can see the past present and future all in one instant. or, past present and future are existing all at the same 'time'. these are just my wacky crazy ideas anyway __________________ And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. ~Anais Nin

10-24-2003, 07:00 AM	#26 (permalink)
iktoweya These pretzels are making me thirsty!! Location: 105B	God no longer has an agenda after creating humans. I mean he is the one who breathes life into humans and talks to the few who are willing to listen. The fact of the matter is that God doesnt have to make choices. that part of his existance is over. he left humans with free will to do as they please. I believe he can see the future but i dont think that the future he sees is the same kind. i believe what he sees is a branch of futures thats gets smaller and smaller as we make decisions in our life. he has no control over what we choose. Thats obvious because not everyone worships him. __________________ i miss K-Wise

10-24-2003, 10:05 AM	#27 (permalink)
Tman144 Tilted	Tman, if you were to kill me it would be because you freely chose to kill me. While God would indeed know that you were going to choose to kill me, he didn't make you do it. God would actually leave me with no choice about killing you if I did it. Since he created everything, he knows that his first action of creation will lead up to me killing you. The chain of events leading up to me killing you would have already been predetermined as soon as time began. The only way to make it my choice is that God didn't know what I was going to do. And about that semi-hate comment, I had just finishing an argument with a person who was trying to convert me so I was a little angry. I was trying to tell her that it would be useless because God had already decided if I was going to heaven or hell.

10-24-2003, 10:06 AM	#28 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	iktoweya: You're missing the point. Whether or not God has any direct influence in our actions, he is omniscient. Therefore, he already knows what choices we are going to make. So regardless of what paths you take, it was really the only path you could have taken - since the future is already known. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out.

10-24-2003, 07:30 PM	#29 (permalink)
MacGnG Know Where!	if he wants to.... yes he does, or had the initial choice to decide weather he does or doesnt so he did. we are in his image, so we do also

10-25-2003, 09:02 AM	#30 (permalink)
Xell101 Junkie	Yes, but technically no. Why would such a being intentionally take the inferior options if it didn't suit his objective/goals/whims.

10-26-2003, 12:38 PM	#33 (permalink)
cliche Rookie Location: Oxford, UK	Don't know if anyone's read this, but I think it's a beautiful explanation: Smullyan's "Is God a Taoist?" __________________ I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones. -- John Cage (1912 - 1992)

10-26-2003, 04:09 PM	#35 (permalink)
Tman144 Tilted	Killconey, Your missing the underlying problem. In God's mind, vision, whatever, you have already been killed if I "decide" to kill you. Its not me deciding, its me going along a certian path because the outcome of my life has been seen and decided at the beginning of time. __________________ "Don't touch my belt, you Jesus freak!" -Mr. Gruff the Atheist Goat

10-26-2003, 11:03 PM	#36 (permalink)
Killconey Crazy Location: Various places in the Midwest, all depending on when I'm posting.	Oh no. You're deciding to go along the path. Its just that its really annoying and frustrating trying to figure out why you're going along the path. And it hasn't been decided since the beginning of time, it was simply compensated for at the beginning of time. __________________ Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

10-26-2003, 11:34 PM	#37 (permalink)
PredeconInferno Reclusiarch Location: Unfortunately Houston, TX	I've always thought of god as being apart from our world anyway. I believe that there is a god, yes. But I believe that that god started everything then said "go play now" so that his perception of time and all that is much different than ours. I just don't think he cares enough. __________________ Samurai in Training Knowledge is power. Guard it well.

10-27-2003, 03:21 AM	#38 (permalink)
Reese Delicious	Kill Coney, First off you shouldn't assume that God doesn't take an active stance in some situations. If He does have free will, then his free will does allow him to interject and stop you from doing something. Also with that said, God is all knowing so he would already know that by killing you he stopped the cure for cancer. Actually who's to say that he doesn't do this all the time? I am going to play devils-advocate, and argue that if God does know everything from everywhen, Then, why did he create it in the first place, How did Noah talk him into changing his plans and allow him to build the ark and restart the whole thing when God was prepared to destroy it all? __________________ “It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

10-27-2003, 11:49 AM	#39 (permalink)
seebee Upright	God in time God first of all is the creator of all that is. Regardless of one's definition of time, it is still something made, or at least attached to something made, (as in the definition that Time is the measurement of motion.) God is outside of time, it is something made by Him, so there is not a then, hereafter, or any of that. God simply is; we need to apply times to Him because of our deficient reason, and understanding. He is the first Will. Where we would apply Free Will to ourselves, it doesn't hold for Him. Free will in the cases of such things as doing right and wrong isn't applicable to God, because he is the First and highest Good, his reason has no fault, he is simple and perfect. (I made this reply somewhat late in the discussion, so I am not certain if I've added anything to it, yet. Sorry for that.)

10-27-2003, 01:56 PM	#40 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	If God is perfect then he does not have free will, he must be perfect. __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while. Last edited by debaser; 10-27-2003 at 02:05 PM..