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Aias · 10-23-2003, 05:02 AM

There is a main problem with assumptions here. You are assuming that BECAUSE God can see the future that he must make it be. This is a false assertion.

Let us make a few basic arguments first.

If you assert that God created the universe then you would assert that he created matter and space.
When matter moves through space he have change, or more specifically TIME. So we can now assert that God created time as well.

Since God was present before the creation of matter or space, he can stand outside and independent of matter and space.
Since God can stand both outside of matter and outside of space he can also stand outside of time.
Since he stands outside of time he can see the beginning and the end and every moment in between all at once. In this sense he is not only everywhere, but also everywhen.

Here is my argument.
Let us say that you are observing a painter. Let us also say that you have a VERY keen eye. You have correctly recorded the exact number of brush strokes made by the painter, the number of colors he used, the number of times he dipped his brush. Let us go even farther in saying that you even know the exact chemical make up of every molecule of paint. Let's stretch it even farther and say that you knew what the painting would look like after it was finished.

What can we say now? You clearly know more about the painting than the painter, right? Does that mean that YOU painted it? of course not!

In the same way God can see the end without forcing humans to behave in a certain way. Humans still have choice and the ability to choose situations based upon the outcome they desire. Just because God looks over out shoulder at the lives we lead, does not mean that he decides for us. Even if he understands more about those lives than WE do, it does not mean that he lives our lives for us or makes us do things.

There are plenty more examples, but I don't want to beat a dead horse by making this post long or annoying with repetition. If anyone is interested in more information I have on this topic you can mail me your questions. I am glad to share my observations with any, even those who disagree. We learn by questioning, otherwise we are blind beggars.

10-23-2003, 05:02 AM	#15 (permalink)
Aias Upright Location: by the waters of Babylon...	There is a main problem with assumptions here. You are assuming that BECAUSE God can see the future that he must make it be. This is a false assertion. Let us make a few basic arguments first. If you assert that God created the universe then you would assert that he created matter and space. When matter moves through space he have change, or more specifically TIME. So we can now assert that God created time as well. Since God was present before the creation of matter or space, he can stand outside and independent of matter and space. Since God can stand both outside of matter and outside of space he can also stand outside of time. Since he stands outside of time he can see the beginning and the end and every moment in between all at once. In this sense he is not only everywhere, but also everywhen. Here is my argument. Let us say that you are observing a painter. Let us also say that you have a VERY keen eye. You have correctly recorded the exact number of brush strokes made by the painter, the number of colors he used, the number of times he dipped his brush. Let us go even farther in saying that you even know the exact chemical make up of every molecule of paint. Let's stretch it even farther and say that you knew what the painting would look like after it was finished. What can we say now? You clearly know more about the painting than the painter, right? Does that mean that YOU painted it? of course not! In the same way God can see the end without forcing humans to behave in a certain way. Humans still have choice and the ability to choose situations based upon the outcome they desire. Just because God looks over out shoulder at the lives we lead, does not mean that he decides for us. Even if he understands more about those lives than WE do, it does not mean that he lives our lives for us or makes us do things. There are plenty more examples, but I don't want to beat a dead horse by making this post long or annoying with repetition. If anyone is interested in more information I have on this topic you can mail me your questions. I am glad to share my observations with any, even those who disagree. We learn by questioning, otherwise we are blind beggars. __________________ But I will seek the meadows by the shore: There will I wash and Purge these stains, if so I may appease Athena's wrath. Then will I find some lonely place, where I may hide this sword, beyond all others cursed, buried where none may see it, deep in earth. Last edited by Aias; 10-23-2003 at 05:06 AM..