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Kyo · 10-23-2003, 06:16 AM

These kinds of arguments have the tendency to degenerate into "our minds are simply unable to comprehend due to the contraints in which we live," which, though a view I support, is not particularly satisfying or helpful.

- Aias: However, if you knew how the painting would come out, you already know every choice the painter is going to make - in fact, since God stands outside of time, you could, in a way, say that the painting has already been painted the moment the painter begins to paint it. I realize that 'the moment' and 'begins' are meaningless in a time-independant system, but I can't think of a better way to describe it. Therefore, every 'choice' that the painter believes he has, is actually following a path towards the 'future' that you have already seen - you know how the painting is going to turn out, so it can't possibly turn out any other way. Nobody is forcing the painter to paint a certain way, no, but because the future, the result, has already been seen, the painter has no choice but to produce that future.

- Nisses: You can see the consequences of your choices, yes - but a true omniscience also indicates that you know exactly what choices you and everyone else makes! You know everything. What has already happened, what is currently happening, what will happen, anywhere and everywhere, simultaneously. So no matter what choice you make, God knows you would have made the choice - therefore making 'free will' an illusion.

10-23-2003, 06:16 AM	#17 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	These kinds of arguments have the tendency to degenerate into "our minds are simply unable to comprehend due to the contraints in which we live," which, though a view I support, is not particularly satisfying or helpful. - Aias: However, if you knew how the painting would come out, you already know every choice the painter is going to make - in fact, since God stands outside of time, you could, in a way, say that the painting has already been painted the moment the painter begins to paint it. I realize that 'the moment' and 'begins' are meaningless in a time-independant system, but I can't think of a better way to describe it. Therefore, every 'choice' that the painter believes he has, is actually following a path towards the 'future' that you have already seen - you know how the painting is going to turn out, so it can't possibly turn out any other way. Nobody is forcing the painter to paint a certain way, no, but because the future, the result, has already been seen, the painter has no choice but to produce that future. - Nisses: You can see the consequences of your choices, yes - but a true omniscience also indicates that you know exactly what choices you and everyone else makes! You know everything. What has already happened, what is currently happening, what will happen, anywhere and everywhere, simultaneously. So no matter what choice you make, God knows you would have made the choice - therefore making 'free will' an illusion. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out. Last edited by Kyo; 10-23-2003 at 06:18 AM..