girldetective

I have recently run into someone who has told me the following two thoughts:

>>The simple fact that my object is not happiness...It's not that I scorn happiness -- I don't. I look forward to it, welcome it, cherish it, and revel in it when it comes. But it isn't my goal, nor my measure of success.<<

>>Later, thinking about what we'd been saying, I said that I thought the true source of that inability to be casual about relationships, at a very deep level, was that I view life as struggle. I accept that; I even welcome it.<<

Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't think I have ever run into someone who feels fundamentally that happiness is not their goal, and I don't know what to make of it. I understand appreciating the struggle, but what is the goal if not happiness of some sort for either self or some other being? Could it be detachment, a benign acceptance of all, a lack of engagement? I don't think I have ever run into a true martyr.

Plan9

Happiness is not an end state. Happiness is a very personal emotional response attached to a person, place, thing, idea, or a warm ___your favorite noun here___.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

belezabaub

Namako, I'm not sure if you have read it but 'Brave New World' by Aldous Huxley deals with exactly this question. I would suggest reading it if you haven't. It really is the finest book I've ever read.
I don't want to say too much about it but if you do/have read let me know. I'd like to hear what you make of it.

girldetective

Compsin: Yes, I see that happiness is an emotional response. Perhaps I'm not sure what an end state is. Or maybe I'm equating happiness with satisfaction, comfort, fullness, and so forth? Can I be so naive?

belezabaub: Thanks for the rec--I will read it.

Baraka_Guru

I would also recommend the Dalai Lama's The Art of Happiness: A Handbook for Living. Although it is written by a Buddhist leader, it is written to every human being. I have other recommendations as well, but this is a good start at examining happiness from a Buddhist perspective. It is universal, and it doesn't assume it is a religious experience.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

i dont see the person who said those two statements as a martyr: a martyr is often into it for the suffering, which raises one's capital in whatever symbolic field the martyr floats about in. make them more worthy of something--so it's a relational thing in the context of which suffering is proof. there can be a kind of bliss involved with it, i understand. i dont know: my personal periods of playing the martyr were not terribly fun. i dont think i'm any good at it.

anyway, this person sounds like they do not imagine happiness as a state, like crompsin said, but as a relation and so as something fleeting that can't be a goal, whatever that actually means. so it'd be a consequence of other things that one sets out to do.

for example, the thing that probably makes me happiest as a human being is doing piano performances, but i don't experience much in the way of happiness--i'm nervous as hell before, i kinda trance out during and after am spent and a little giddy and i dont know what just happened.

the happiness comes from the second of third listen to the recording, or after i realize that listening is a little adventure. that makes me happy.

then you keep listening to it and get to know it then it becomes just another thing and i want to do another one. more please. so it's part of a circuit that involves alot of emotions and ways of paying attention, and it's a motor for continuing. maybe its a goal too: i just don't think about it that way. though i, too, am pleased when it shows up.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Plan9

I simply meant to say that the concept of... the product known as "happiness" is merely an intangible. You can't buy it in a vending machine, you can't eat it or cuddle with it, you can't box it up and take it home with you. Happiness is something our bodies manufacture through various chemical reactions in our brains and for various reasons ranging from a new puppy to a toe-curling BJ.

I don't think happiness is any person's goal. I think the people, places, things, and ideas that we populate our personal world with are what we seek. Happiness is a measure of that journey, a product of that journey.

Getting a good job, getting married, being successful in your hobbies... things you want. Happiness just happens to be the thing you can use to measure it to see if it fills your needs.

Sure, there are plenty of rich people with huge mansions, nice cars, and the most plastic trophy wife money can buy that aren't happy... but that proves another point entirely.

Things make you happy. You go after these things, not happiness.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

girldetective

Roachboy: So the goal is the doingness of the piano, the creative aspect. I understand that. However, what drives you to continue to play the piano and to listen after? Isn't it the prospect of creating for happiness, or someone else's happiness? Isn't that the effect that you're striving to cause over and over? Kind of like what I imagine cocaine is like? (Your description of playing sounds suspiciously orgasmic.)

Baraka-Guru: This has become somewhat of an obsession over the last 12 hours or so, as loathe as I am to admit it. I certainly must know how to figure it out, but there is something I am missing, a viewpoint I'm not taking, a simple definition I don't know, a mistake I am making, or I am simply an idiot. I'm not sure yet. We'll see.

Crompsin: Maybe. But, what if we seek happiness and collect others/things for our own enjoyment, satisfaction, comfort, help, and so forth. What if they are the by-products of our search to feel that emotion. In addition, doesn't an altruistic act justify as bringing some aspect of happiness (whether it be comfort, lack of hunger, peace, etc) to oneself or to the recipient? Again, am i messing the emotions up, such as comfort vs happiness?

cyklone

The problem with happiness as a goal is that no one seems to know how to find it. We all say that is what we want but so few seem to achieve it and then it is only temporarily. And when you are happy, we don't seem to notice it, it seems more noticeable by its absence.
My own personal, perhaps cynical, view is that happiness is just a by-product of other things. We can seek satisfaction in particular areas and when we achieve that for the brief period that it lasts, we feel happy. More difficult but still achievable is fulfillment and when we achieve that we tend to feel happy.

Plan9

I don't know. The cool part about happiness is you define your own.

...

When I wake up in the morning... I don't go, "Man, I'm happy." I go, "Man, I like doing karate, going to school, riding my 'cycle, getting laid, eating cheerios, etc."

I don't do altruism.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

roachboy

truth is that its all about the zero.
its about nothingness.


maybe--but alot of different things get communicated with sound, not all of them pleasant.
it's not really something i know about--people say my playing is emotional, but i dont feel anything.
i see structures and make them bend.

i think i am aware of more things in orgasm situations.
but maybe you're right.
if you are, then shhh....it's a secret.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

jewels

I tend to agree with this part.

Happiness isn't be a goal, per se, but an emotional response or reward for small accomplishements and moments along the way. I don't see happiness as a permanent state, at least not by my definition. I can see contentment as a goal, though. Dictionary definitions may equate the two (happiness and contentment), but there is a difference in connotation.

One may do something to cause a moment's happiness for oneself or another, but to cause it over and over would cause happiness to lose its meaning, don't you think? In order to achieve happiness and value it, don't there have to be moments of unhappiness and discontent? If things are always going well, there would be no goal, nothing to look forward to, nothing to plan for.

I totally treasure the times of true happiness!

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

girldetective

Cyklone: It's funny-I don't think I have ever felt fulfilled, but I do feel happy most of the time now. When I don't, it's absence is palpable, and like the cocaine addict I seek it out. I am not talking here about momentary happiness, but a deep seated sense of okayness and warmth, a view of joy. Of course that begs the question, How can one feel happiness without fulfillment. But, still I know this is true.

Crompsin: Of course you don't do altruism, what was I thinking?! Yes, I agree with you that happiness is chemical, which is why I likened it to cocaine. When I wake up in the morning the first thing I do is feel, rather than think. Then I think. Other than the things that I have a responsibility to do, I often choose things to do based on my feelings, particularly at that moment. Maybe i just have too much time on my hands and the opportunity for indulgence, or maybe I really am an idiot.

Roachboy: Nothingness in real time, or internal nothingness? Yes, what you say about music is true, it doesn't always promote happiness (although it almost always has an effect). O, I'm beginning to get it. While playing, or perhaps watching a scary movie, one might not be feeling happy at that moment. Instead, one might be scared or nervous. And as a child if your mother made you play that piano when you wanted to be out playing baseball, you would not be happy. If that was the case, as an adult, one might not look with happiness at the piano. So the happiness is situational. However, also as an adult wouldn't one choose something to do other than the piano simply because it does not bring happiness. In other words, yes, happiness can be a fleeting and situational, but isn't it also a goal? (Shh-I think I was mistaken re orgasm. You're right, I feel more, too. I was thinking more of that first time of confusion and bliss.)

Jewels443: I'm not sure. it seems that most of us do experience happiness over and over, but I don't think it has lost it's meaning. If it had, it is not something we would cherish and revel in. Yes, there will always be times, or whole lives, where unhappiness or discontent abound, but does that preclude happiness as a goal? Isn't it expressly at those times that one tends to seek out happiness, whether analytically or emotionally? Doesn't happiness beget happiness? When you feel it, don't you want more? Do you ever think, "Shit, I was so happy, what happened?", and then feel loss? At those times, do you find that you are looking forward to again feeling happiness? I understand what you mean about the difference between happiness and contentment. This is what I struggle with, the definitions of happiness. Are they the same, or is happiness more joyful? I don't know. I still wonder though, isn't happiness, whatever that personal definition is, the goal of common man?

jewels

Actually, I think this is what it boils down to. Different things make different people happy. This is why finding someone who has the same goals and outlook makes us feel happy. Let's say we have that perfect mate, we're making money doing what we love. We have a house, car, dog -- whatever we think it is we need to be happy. But once we've got that, then what? After some time, there's always going to be something that will tug at us (and it's a personal theory of mine that this is what often destroys relationships). Contentment, and by that I mean a kind of status quo happiness, is merely a "comfort" and gets boring for many of us after awhile.

I think that most have to continue to set goals or we can't reach that level of happiness. In that way, happiness might be considered a constant goal, since we need to find something to aspire to. Once we reach each goal, we hit that point of happiness, but after awhile, it fades. We need a new challenge to satisfy.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Cynthetiq

joy. that's the end game.

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Jinn

I live for nothing more. No God to appease, no morals to uphold except my own.

I live to maximize the happiness of myself, those who I know by name, and those who I do not. If I were just maximizing my own, I'd be awfully selfish and it would likely come back to bite me in many ways, the foremost being that it would cut into my happiness not having others who were happy around me. If I were just maximizing mine and that of those who I know by name, I'd be neglecting the world; again, it would come back to bite me.

But if I can strive to maximize all three, then I'm right in track with my life goals.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

ring

There is an old saying about having one foot in yesterday and
one foot in tomorrrow..

staying in the moment is all we really have..
relishing the flashes of joy and accepting the hardships as well..

not being afraid of any part of life...

for me this has come a tad easier as I age....

Don't worry be happy.

asaris

Well, it all depends on what you mean by happiness, doesn't it? If you just mean that giddy feeling, then no responsible human being seeks that as an end goal. But if you mean something more like fulfillment, the way that the ancients meant it, then it seems at least reasonable to say that all people seek it, even if their idea of fulfillment varies. And if you mean something like fulfillment, there's nothing necessarily selfish about it either.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

BRITTANYxm0del

I think someone is trying to be too philosophical. The comma use and semicolon tell ya that.

Personally, I'm here for a good time. Not a long time.

genuinegirly

I saw only recently (past 5 years) that pursuing inner peace, for yourself and not what others want for you, is a reasonable and attainable goal. Not listening to all they tell you about happiness, not acting on everything they tell you to. Rather, listening, observing their take on it, and oftentimes deciding to ignore it because it's senselessly misguided. Finding it on your own. Learning what makes you tick and what truly offers you happiness. Realizing that misery and sorrow is crucial for one to know happiness - contrast.

But in telling, I destroy the journey for another.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Yakk

Happiness is distorted message given by evolution saying "this worked in the past, do more of it". That's it.

I don't worship evolution, so I don't worship happiness.

As many people have noted, there are some people who can produce happiness from nothing, and others for whom nothing can produce happiness. By the "happiness is the fundamental goal" rule, both of these people should cease action.

Technology is likely to figure out how to produce happiness cheaply and directly -- and if that is the fundamental goal of your life, you should then become a wire head and spend your entire life doing nothing.

I don't think that is a good way to live one's life.

When A implies B, and you aren't absolutely sure about A, and B seems wrong, this provides evidence that A is wrong -- that happiness shouldn't be the absolute fundamental goal, because being a wire head is not a good state to be in.

To put it another way: when wire heading is developed, all those who are motivated by maximizing their own happiness will stop playing the game of reality, and those who keep playing reality will inherit the universe.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Jinn

I'm fine with that. Reality wasn't really all that great, anywho. In terms of "ideal universes", reality doesn't do it for me. Matrix it up.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Ustwo

The frog can wish to be a swan but hes still a frog. To deny your own nature is rather silly. For example, my children bring me a lot of happiness. I never understood guys who would lament not seeing their kids for a week while they were out of town, it was only a week after all. Well now I get it. Its obviously a evolutionary response but why fight it?

I don't think this example is truly valid. Put someone who is 'always' happy in a room with his testicles wired up to a car battery and I think someone won't be happy. Likewise Mr. Never happy most likely is just denying what would make him happy or just doesn't know how to reach it. Both absolutes are not in fact absolutes.

The wire head happiness is a pretty old theme in science fiction, always with a drug analogy, and like heavy drugs I'm sure thats how it would be used and thought of. There are some people who would stuff various substances in their bodies all day long currently and they will be the same ones using a direct mind current type of drug as well. You are right in that they will inherit nothing, no more than a meth head does today.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

cyklone

Namako: I think the search for fulfillment or satisfaction is more easily definable than the search for happiness and leads to a "higher quality and happier lifestyle".
A search for happiness is less defined and could be just chemical as in achieving one's next drug hit or being sexually or physically satisfied; things that can be more temporary and shallow. I'd like to avoid the idea that happiness is more than just scratching an itch (re: Plato).

thedregs

The problem with happiness as an objective in itself is that it is only really a by-product of our search for happiness. It is what sloughs off from the work that is invested in realising the object that we assume to 'make us whole'. Think of the sportscar - the real pleasure is in desiring it, rather than possessing it. Once you have it, suddenly it doesn't seem as perfect as it did before and you are left desiring another. Before long, you're a sportscar collector. I think you're right to have an intuitive issue with a 'happiness machine' that could satisfy our every whim, because it is our unhappiness/unsatisfaction that forms the bedrock of social interaction. After all, if we were to be completely satiated why would we even bother to interact with anyone else?

Baraka_Guru

We often confuse terms such as desire, pleasure, and happiness. I think before we can continue this conversation, we need to clarify our use of each.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

flstf

I think many of us are happiest when we are on the move mentally and/or physically. Our ancestors walked out of Africa and inhabited the rest of the world in a short period of time and I don't think it was always because of need. Most of us may be wired with an adventurous and curious nature that forces us to strive to discover and understand the unknown.

Willravel

Happiness comes with my goals. I don't want to be a civil rights attorney to be happy, but I know it will make me happy to help people.

Mantus

*shrug* if being unhappy makes someone happy who am I to stop them?

Plan9

Yes, yes... perhaps pleasure and desire are the "inbox / outbox" of the happiness body.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

I would say that desire and pleasure are the "inbox/outbox" of the miserable mind.

Desire is disruptive; pleasure is fleeting; happiness is enduring.

Happiness brings tranquility and contentment. What does desire and pleasure to to these things? What are the natures of desire and pleasure? What are their actions?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

jewels

If you're saying that pleasure is momentary then, yes, I agree. Aren't all those (contentment, joy, inner peace etc) temporary states of being within the confines of the word "happy"? Some may last longer than others but unless you can achieve nirvana, I still think can't see how it's possible to achieve enduring happiness. Life endures and we can't shelter ourselves from it, so there are bound to be disturbances in that perfection of pure happiness.

I do believe we can strive for more of those moments or prolonged periods of happiness by continuing to set new goals and not allowing ourselves to stagnate.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Plan9

Miserable? It could work for any emotional state, I'd imagine.

I feel these terms you've mentioned are the containers, not the contents.

They are icons we used to describe the human system of satisfaction.

Desire has me seeking happiness which brings me pleasure.

Perhaps desire is the engine. Happiness is the vehicle. Pleasure is the fuel.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

PonyPotato

If so, where is the vehicle of happiness going? And what is the road it uses to get there?

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

Baraka_Guru

Happiness is not an achievement, it is a process. Nirvana isn't a finish line, it is a path.

Everything is transient. The failure to realize this and to adequately respond to it is what causes misery. This is how pleasure can cause misery; this is why we desire. Happiness is being able to see through it all. To see life for what it really is. To know how to avoid falling into the clinging fruitless habits that leave us wanting more and more.

Crompsin: You are on the right track. Where you might be falling off the path before you even know it's there is when you let desire lead you by the nose. Pleasure cannot be controlled. The path of happiness resembles that of a bird's. It cannot be seen and therefore cannot be copied. Desire often causes us to forget this. Happiness is within our reach only when we master our minds by preventing our minds from mastering us.

I am still out of reach of happiness. But I am seeking my path.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Hain

"...temporary state of being."
To me it's all temporary.

__________________

////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

freelod

agree with it. just a process

Plan9

If I keep running with my less-than-brilliant comparison... we'll say the vehicle of happiness travels through time for a set amount of time until we die. I feel that is "where it is going," the end of time. The road it uses is our life: our choices, attitudes, perspectives, opinions, actions, and experiences.

...

Happiness is not for everyone. Conventional butterflies-rainbows-and-puppies happiness is not the desire of all people.

I know many people that are fueled like nuclear reactors by despair and anger.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

MirrorsrorriM

the science of motivation theory states that, we seek to achieve the relief of tension, and stress, by eating, fullfilling our animal desires, but when we seek to obliterate them completely,, by over-eating, or over-indulgence, they seem to only become more powerful, create more tension and stress, resulting in perversions, obesity, sadism, evil covetousness and greed. bu why? how come the more we have, the more we want, and the less we get, the less we need? Our inner ability to endure stress, is weakened, the fact that when we endure stress, we become stronger and more able to endure it, is a key component of our nature. We all kneel before the stronger will, submit to it, worship it, because it benefits us, the strong will in others, strengthens us as well, if we submit to it. If we contest it, it destroys us, so then we fear it as well.




happiness lies in balance, that is the way of the Tao. (P.S. I am really an unhappy loser)