Is happiness a fundamental goal? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

girldetective · 01-22-2008, 05:43 PM

In the end what did this intellectual martyr do when he found his dream come true? He struggled to fit his flagrant babydoll into his persona to the point that babydoll said, "I'm gone baby, gone", and no one was happy. However, the goal of struggle was met.

Besides, babydoll didn't get any cookies.

lostaxe · 01-22-2008, 10:59 PM

Is the pursuit of happiness a selfish motivation? There seems to be some admiration for someone who says "I don't pursue happiness." We quickly nominate them for martyrdom.
How about being happy? Is it selfish to be happy? Can you just be happy without pursuing it? I don't think so. All animals naturally pursue happiness. Even if it's just finding a sunny spot on the porch on a cold morning. Even if it's waking up with a hangover and going to mow an old ladies yard for her. Your motivation for doing that was to make you (and her) happy. If that makes you feel guilty... then maybe you should stay home and whip yourself on the back with one of those little purging whips until you bleed.

I don't see any way around it. Everything we do willingly... we do because we want to. Because it makes us happy or at least happier than we'd be if we didn't do it. The only way that I could say that "I don't pursue happiness" would be to enter into some kind of slavery wherein my free will was denied. Then I could say "I don't pursue happiness because I CAN'T pursue happiness".

girldetective · 01-23-2008, 06:42 AM

Pursuit of happiness can be selfish or not, don't you think? And being happy can come from anywhere, from the pursuit or simply from dopamine levels. For instance, the dog that found the sunny spot and languidly stretched out. He is being happy at that moment perhaps because there is sun, he found a spot, and/or the sun feels good. Is it selfish? I suppose. Is it wrong? I don't think so. But if you look at Intellectual Martyr it is a different story. His purging crop was close by, never leaving the room. Give babydoll a kiss, whack! Like something too much? Whack! The way that I understand it is that while truly languishing in happiness at a personal level, he CAN'T continue simply because he is happy. He believes he will be seen globally as less than because his taste for love gravitates towards the sweet rather than the world rebel cause. In other words, he likes the frosting more than the cake, but he believes he should like the cake better. In the end though it is easy to admire conviction and no one comes out too unhappy. Could it be that the conviction and denial make him happy and satisfied while at the same time miserable, in which case he is mistaken and is pursuing happiness? And really maybe this post belongs in the Psychological Hell Forum rather than Philosophy, but I don't think so necessarily. I have met other people like him just not on such a personal level. Personal happiness vs global happiness as if they are separate, which of course they are, but really they aren't. And isn't misery selfish? Are all feelings inherently selfish?

Xazy · 01-23-2008, 07:43 AM

key to Happiness is to be content (that is learned form pirkei avos).

lostaxe · 01-23-2008, 09:48 PM

I’m not sure I’d say that pursuit of happiness is ever unselfish. When we are least selfish… we are contributing to the happiness to make ourselves feel better. I think it’s admirable that Intellectual Martyr doesn’t like to languish in his own personal selfish happiness. But I think the “global happiness” would be better served if he redirected his efforts toward making others happy rather than punishing himself. I don’t think it’s wrong to be happy. I think it may be wrong to keep that happiness to yourself.

girldetective · 01-24-2008, 11:00 AM

lostaxe: Yes, I agree with what you say and I also admire Intellectual Martyr's conviction (see post #43). Languishing in love for more than a moment or even a moment is what I mean. Not a full day, not a week, not 1000 years. However, he CAN'T do that. I believe it is alright for people to take a moment and breathe in happiness. (Whack!) I think it is good for them and those they encounter. (Whack!) I believe it spills over. However, Intellectual Martyr genuinely thinks differently. He seems to feel that if he experiences happiness it is a betrayal of those with strife and hardship in the world, a betrayal of his people. He also feels this way about fun and is dead set against it. He believes it is frivolous or adolescent. It is a hard concept in most ways. It seems some people can love globally, but not individually. Now that I think about, it reminds me very much of my husband. When he asked me to marry him, I asked him if he loved me. He replied, "Of course I love you. I love everybody". Apparently I have a tendency to love and admire global lovers, and this really should have gone in the psych hell forum.

Ourcrazymodern? · 01-28-2008, 06:39 PM

We want it
more than we need it
so it is

lostaxe · 01-31-2008, 08:46 AM

Anyone interested in this thread might want to read about Jeremy Bentham.
He devoted much of his writing to the pursuit of happiness and how it should
be balanced and when it becomes immoral. I just stumbled across him in a book called "The Great Philosophers" that I picked up at B&N. I don't know anything more about him than the 4 pages I read in that book.

I don't think we're supposed to put links up on this forum. But just Google
"jeremy bentham happiness" and start reading.

01-22-2008, 05:43 PM	#41 (permalink)
girldetective sufferable	In the end what did this intellectual martyr do when he found his dream come true? He struggled to fit his flagrant babydoll into his persona to the point that babydoll said, "I'm gone baby, gone", and no one was happy. However, the goal of struggle was met. Besides, babydoll didn't get any cookies. Last edited by girldetective; 01-23-2008 at 05:52 AM..

01-22-2008, 10:59 PM	#42 (permalink)
lostaxe Upright	Dog story Is the pursuit of happiness a selfish motivation? There seems to be some admiration for someone who says "I don't pursue happiness." We quickly nominate them for martyrdom. How about being happy? Is it selfish to be happy? Can you just be happy without pursuing it? I don't think so. All animals naturally pursue happiness. Even if it's just finding a sunny spot on the porch on a cold morning. Even if it's waking up with a hangover and going to mow an old ladies yard for her. Your motivation for doing that was to make you (and her) happy. If that makes you feel guilty... then maybe you should stay home and whip yourself on the back with one of those little purging whips until you bleed. I don't see any way around it. Everything we do willingly... we do because we want to. Because it makes us happy or at least happier than we'd be if we didn't do it. The only way that I could say that "I don't pursue happiness" would be to enter into some kind of slavery wherein my free will was denied. Then I could say "I don't pursue happiness because I CAN'T pursue happiness".

01-23-2008, 06:42 AM	#43 (permalink)
girldetective sufferable	Pursuit of happiness can be selfish or not, don't you think? And being happy can come from anywhere, from the pursuit or simply from dopamine levels. For instance, the dog that found the sunny spot and languidly stretched out. He is being happy at that moment perhaps because there is sun, he found a spot, and/or the sun feels good. Is it selfish? I suppose. Is it wrong? I don't think so. But if you look at Intellectual Martyr it is a different story. His purging crop was close by, never leaving the room. Give babydoll a kiss, whack! Like something too much? Whack! The way that I understand it is that while truly languishing in happiness at a personal level, he CAN'T continue simply because he is happy. He believes he will be seen globally as less than because his taste for love gravitates towards the sweet rather than the world rebel cause. In other words, he likes the frosting more than the cake, but he believes he should like the cake better. In the end though it is easy to admire conviction and no one comes out too unhappy. Could it be that the conviction and denial make him happy and satisfied while at the same time miserable, in which case he is mistaken and is pursuing happiness? And really maybe this post belongs in the Psychological Hell Forum rather than Philosophy, but I don't think so necessarily. I have met other people like him just not on such a personal level. Personal happiness vs global happiness as if they are separate, which of course they are, but really they aren't. And isn't misery selfish? Are all feelings inherently selfish? Last edited by girldetective; 01-23-2008 at 09:35 AM..

01-24-2008, 11:00 AM	#46 (permalink)
girldetective sufferable	lostaxe: Yes, I agree with what you say and I also admire Intellectual Martyr's conviction (see post #43). Languishing in love for more than a moment or even a moment is what I mean. Not a full day, not a week, not 1000 years. However, he CAN'T do that. I believe it is alright for people to take a moment and breathe in happiness. (Whack!) I think it is good for them and those they encounter. (Whack!) I believe it spills over. However, Intellectual Martyr genuinely thinks differently. He seems to feel that if he experiences happiness it is a betrayal of those with strife and hardship in the world, a betrayal of his people. He also feels this way about fun and is dead set against it. He believes it is frivolous or adolescent. It is a hard concept in most ways. It seems some people can love globally, but not individually. Now that I think about, it reminds me very much of my husband. When he asked me to marry him, I asked him if he loved me. He replied, "Of course I love you. I love everybody". Apparently I have a tendency to love and admire global lovers, and this really should have gone in the psych hell forum. Last edited by girldetective; 01-25-2008 at 06:08 AM..

01-28-2008, 06:39 PM	#47 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	We want it more than we need it so it is __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

01-23-2008, 07:43 AM	#44 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	key to Happiness is to be content (that is learned form pirkei avos).

01-23-2008, 09:48 PM	#45 (permalink)
lostaxe Upright	I’m not sure I’d say that pursuit of happiness is ever unselfish. When we are least selfish… we are contributing to the happiness to make ourselves feel better. I think it’s admirable that Intellectual Martyr doesn’t like to languish in his own personal selfish happiness. But I think the “global happiness” would be better served if he redirected his efforts toward making others happy rather than punishing himself. I don’t think it’s wrong to be happy. I think it may be wrong to keep that happiness to yourself.

01-31-2008, 08:46 AM	#48 (permalink)
lostaxe Upright	The Great Happiness Principle - Jeremy Bentham Anyone interested in this thread might want to read about Jeremy Bentham. He devoted much of his writing to the pursuit of happiness and how it should be balanced and when it becomes immoral. I just stumbled across him in a book called "The Great Philosophers" that I picked up at B&N. I don't know anything more about him than the 4 pages I read in that book. I don't think we're supposed to put links up on this forum. But just Google "jeremy bentham happiness" and start reading.