what happened on 911 - Page 18 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Seaver · 09-28-2006, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

I doubt that the whole 9/11 thing would ever have happened if Bush wasn't in power.

Because the first WTC bombing did not occur under Clinton? The years of planning required for such an endeaver (like pilot training, funding, placing the terrorist in America) took only the months that Bush was in office?

OBL does not care if the President of the US is apologetic or hard lined. He wants us militarily and financially destroyed regardless.

Dilbert1234567 · 09-28-2006, 06:43 AM

to seaver, and everyone else, can we please start citing who we quote, its easy, if you did not know, inside of the of the first quote inside of brackets, make it quote=name

[quote=some guy]

Ustwo · 09-28-2006, 07:03 AM

I'm sure Al Gore would have been decisive and stopped the terrorist attack on 9/11.

But its time to get back to asking...

Will, I'm not clear still, were the insurance companies in on it too?

Cynthetiq · 09-28-2006, 07:06 AM

I watched this last night, well some of it before I went to bed on Discovery Times channel. I have seen footage of that day I never had seen before.

Attack on the Pentagon

Examine the day Flight 77 flew into one of the most famous buildings in the world. Through eyewitness accounts, follow the 757 as it descended to within 3,000 feet of the White House, banked over the Potomac, turned and attacked the Pentagon.

SEP 28 2006
@ 10:00 AM

OCT 01 2006
@ 07:00 PM

OCT 30 2006
@ 04:00 PM

fastom · 09-28-2006, 09:34 PM

Well Dil is at least partly on the right track. The Presi-dunce is responsible for the lack of followup... c'mon it's like a bad joke. Get in a car accident that draws blood and you ain't moving the car till they investigate. Here they shovel the whole friggin' works off to the dump... no, worse... they send it to be recycled... destroyed. So that nobody will ever find out the truth. We can point out inconsistancies, we can scoff at their lame explanations but actual prove-it-in-court evidence was destroyed.

That is not by accident or oversight. It's criminal contempt.

Dilbert1234567 · 09-29-2006, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

Well Dil is at least partly on the right track. The Presi-dunce is responsible for the lack of followup... c'mon it's like a bad joke. Get in a car accident that draws blood and you ain't moving the car till they investigate. Here they shovel the whole friggin' works off to the dump... no, worse... they send it to be recycled... destroyed. So that nobody will ever find out the truth. We can point out inconsistancies, we can scoff at their lame explanations but actual prove-it-in-court evidence was destroyed.

That is not by accident or oversight. It's criminal contempt.

…and just plain wrong; the last of the steel was removed in may 2002, and Dr W. Gene Corley, head of the Building Performance Assessment Team said they had plenty of time

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr W. Gene Corley, head of the Building Performance Assessment Team

"There has been some concern expressed by others that the work of the team has been hampered because debris was removed from the site and has subsequently been processed for recycling. This is not the case. The team has had full access to the scrap yards and to the site and has been able to obtain numerous samples. At this point there is no indication that having access to each piece of steel from the World Trade Center would make a significant difference to understanding the performance of the structures".

http://www.911myths.com/html/recycled_steel.html

fastom · 09-29-2006, 10:30 AM

I don't buy that. In an airplane crash they sometimes reassemble the whole plane from the tiny scraps recovered. Stuff was being trucked out of the WTC site very soon afterwards.

Here's a more truthful explanation...
http://911review.com/coverup/fema_wtc.html

Cynthetiq · 09-29-2006, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

I don't buy that. In an airplane crash they sometimes reassemble the whole plane from the tiny scraps recovered. Stuff was being trucked out of the WTC site very soon afterwards.

Here's a more truthful explanation...
http://911review.com/coverup/fema_wtc.html

NTSB reassembles planes. I have seen them do that, but no one has EVER reassembled a real building.

Ustwo · 09-29-2006, 10:47 AM

Quote:

and just plain wrong; the last of the steel was removed in may 2002, and Dr W. Gene Corley, head of the Building Performance Assessment Team said they had plenty of time

Or....is HE in on it too! *dun dun dun!*

Willravel · 09-29-2006, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

NTSB reassembles planes. I have seen them do that, but no one has EVER reassembled a real building.

The point is that it was shipped off and melted down so quickly. This is the first time in history that a steel reinforced building has fallen due to fire. You'd think that they'd want to take a look. FEMA had something like 12 hours before it started getting shipped off, and most of that investigation was going on when rescue workers with buckets were trying to get rubble off bodies.

Had I been the head of FEMA, I would have requestewd at least a few weeks to study some of the wrekage. Yes, clear the roads. Yes, make sure that the air is clean and that the disruptions are cleared.

Cynthetiq · 09-29-2006, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

The point is that it was shipped off and melted down so quickly. This is the first time in history that a steel reinforced building has fallen due to fire. You'd think that they'd want to take a look. FEMA had something like 12 hours before it started getting shipped off, and most of that investigation was going on when rescue workers with buckets were trying to get rubble off bodies.

Had I been the head of FEMA, I would have requestewd at least a few weeks to study some of the wrekage. Yes, clear the roads. Yes, make sure that the air is clean and that the disruptions are cleared.

from what I have seen, there are people who have some samples of the steel. the one video I linked has some in it and someone discussing effects on it.

How much steel did they need to preserve?

Ustwo · 09-29-2006, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

The point is that it was shipped off and melted down so quickly. This is the first time in history that a steel reinforced building has fallen due to fire. You'd think that they'd want to take a look. FEMA had something like 12 hours before it started getting shipped off, and most of that investigation was going on when rescue workers with buckets were trying to get rubble off bodies.

Had I been the head of FEMA, I would have requestewd at least a few weeks to study some of the wrekage. Yes, clear the roads. Yes, make sure that the air is clean and that the disruptions are cleared.

Maybe they weren't counting on the 10,000 man conspiracy requiring them to save every last scrap to keep the fringe happy.

Willravel · 09-29-2006, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

from what I have seen, there are people who have some samples of the steel. the one video I linked has some in it and someone discussing effects on it.

How much steel did they need to preserve?

Yes, some people took some home and some of that steel was given to FEMA later. From interviews, though, basically no steel, and very little debris at all were recovered.

Ustwo, apparently you no longer can contribute anything in Paranoia or Politics besides flame bait and personal attacks. You don't respond to people who question the logic of your posts (see "Ustwo, why do you condone torture?" that still goes unanswered, presumabaly because you have no reasonable explaination), you defend your personal attacks with more personal attacks, and you generally laugh at people. When I ask why, you suggest that you have somehow already proved me wrong, and this is the resulting victory dance. Now if you have conctributed to this thread like Dilbert, Cynth, Samcol or myself, I'd probably let it fly. This is Paranoia, after all, and there is some level of leeway here that you wouldn't find in Politics. You haven't. I can go back page after page and find personal attacks and flame, and almost no arguments to the subject at hand. Have you read the FEMA report? Have you read the 9/11 Commission report? Have you read the NIST report? It's obvious that you haven't. Let's look at your last few contributions:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Maybe they weren't counting on the 10,000 man conspiracy requiring them to save every last scrap to keep the fringe happy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Or....is HE in on it too! *dun dun dun!*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I'm sure Al Gore would have been decisive and stopped the terrorist attack on 9/11.

All flame and personal attacks. No actual content. No arguments. No points.

You've tried to latch on to Dilbert or Cynth's points as if they were your own, then you used them as a platform on which to shout from.

I would appreciate it if you made some effort to become an active member in the discussion. I would aprpeciate it if you were to argue points based on merrit instead of personal attacks and flame. I would appreciate it if you were to show some respect for the other members of this community. I would appreciate it if you made an effort to follow the rules and guidlines of TFP. Let me know if you plan on making an effort in any of these areas. Until you do, you will continue to be scoffed at by the contributors, be they liberal or conservative. It's a damn shame, too. We all know how bright you are. You could have wonderful contributions, like you do outside of Politics and Paranoia. You could be a benifit to everyone here.

//threadjack

stevo · 09-29-2006, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

This is the first time in history that a steel reinforced building has fallen due to fire.

CORRECTION: Plane crash and ensuing fire.

I've noticed you like to say the buildings fell because of a fire. But thats not ture, or not the whole truth. The buildings fell because ginormous jetliners crashed into them destabilizing the structures and causing fires that burned uncontrolled for more than an hour. If you think the crash had no impact on the fall then please say so.

Willravel · 09-29-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

CORRECTION: Plane crash and ensuing fire.

I've noticed you like to say the buildings fell because of a fire. But thats not ture, or not the whole truth. The buildings fell because ginormous jetliners crashed into them destabilizing the structures and causing fires that burned uncontrolled for more than an hour. If you think the crash had no impact on the fall then please say so.

This is the first time in history a steel reinforced building has fallen due to fire. This is the furst time in history a steel reinforced building has fallen due to a plane crash. This is the first time in history that a stee reinforced building has fallen from a plane crash, and ensuing fire. This is the first time an airliner has been used as a missle in a terrorist attack. This is the first time a whole building on US soil has fallen due to a terrorist attack.

stevo · 09-29-2006, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

This is the first time in history a steel reinforced building has fallen due to fire. This is the furst time in history a steel reinforced building has fallen due to a plane crash. This is the first time in history that a stee reinforced building has fallen from a plane crash, and ensuing fire. This is the first time an airliner has been used as a missle in a terrorist attack. This is the first time a whole building on US soil has fallen due to a terrorist attack.

Do you feel better now? I do.

Willravel · 09-29-2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Do you feel better now? I do.

Actually, yes! TY

Dilbert1234567 · 09-29-2006, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

I don't buy that. In an airplane crash they sometimes reassemble the whole plane from the tiny scraps recovered. Stuff was being trucked out of the WTC site very soon afterwards.

Here's a more truthful explanation...
http://911review.com/coverup/fema_wtc.html

The director of the study said they had enough time and pieces, unless everyone involved in the report is part of the conspiracy that stands as fact that they had enough time and access. It was trucked out because it was a pile of rubble, you cant study a pile of rubble, you need to look through it, which was done as it was moved to the junk yard, where it was reexamined, and then recycled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Or....is HE in on it too! *dun dun dun!*

SHUSH your blowing my cover

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

The point is that it was shipped off and melted down so quickly. This is the first time in history that a steel reinforced building has fallen due to fire. You'd think that they'd want to take a look. FEMA had something like 12 hours before it started getting shipped off, and most of that investigation was going on when rescue workers with buckets were trying to get rubble off bodies.

Had I been the head of FEMA, I would have requestewd at least a few weeks to study some of the wrekage. Yes, clear the roads. Yes, make sure that the air is clean and that the disruptions are cleared.

It was quick, but it was still enough time to do an examination. The examination did not end when the rubble was removed, that was just the start, and they also had full access to the junkyard it was sent too. As for the ‘first steel building junk’ it is true that this is the first steel building to collapse, but its also the first steel truss building to be hit with a fire this bad, and a plane on top of it, steel trusses are very susceptible to fire, and having the fire protection blown off from the impact made it all the worse. A fire can take down a steel truss building, especially if it has the fire proofing removed. You cannot compare a fire in a steal building to a fire in a steel truss building, they are not the same, they are Very different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Yes, some people took some home and some of that steel was given to FEMA later. From interviews, though, basically no steel, and very little debris at all were recovered.

Everything was recovered, Everything. If it was at the building before hand, it was there when it was shipped to the junkyard; we did not have any matter changing into energy or vice versa. I don’t know who you are quoting as little was recovered, but they are wrong, flat out wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

This is the first time in history a steel reinforced building has fallen due to fire. This is the furst time in history a steel reinforced building has fallen due to a plane crash. This is the first time in history that a stee reinforced building has fallen from a plane crash, and ensuing fire. This is the first time an airliner has been used as a missle in a terrorist attack. This is the first time a whole building on US soil has fallen due to a terrorist attack.

And we all learned that a group of psychos can defeat all out protections, and cause us harm we need to pick our selves up accept that we live with risk and get on with our lives. The oceans no longer protect us as they used to. We live in a dangerous world.

Willravel · 09-29-2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

It was quick, but it was still enough time to do an examination. The examination did not end when the rubble was removed, that was just the start, and they also had full access to the junkyard it was sent too. As for the ‘first steel building junk’ it is true that this is the first steel building to collapse, but its also the first steel truss building to be hit with a fire this bad, and a plane on top of it, steel trusses are very susceptible to fire, and having the fire protection blown off from the impact made it all the worse. A fire can take down a steel truss building, especially if it has the fire proofing removed. You cannot compare a fire in a steal building to a fire in a steel truss building, they are not the same, they are Very different.

What do you mean by steel building? Do you mean steel reinforced? A truss system is a type of steel reinforcement.

If you mean a building made completly of steel, then that's a very interesting idea I'd like to explore further. Wouldn't it get really hot in the summer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

Everything was recovered, Everything. If it was at the building before hand, it was there when it was shipped to the junkyard; we did not have any matter changing into energy or vice versa. I don’t know who you are quoting as little was recovered, but they are wrong, flat out wrong.

The steel was shipped off, most of it to India, where it was melted down. Some of that steel is being used to create a naval military vessal, as I understand it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

And we all learned that a group of psychos can defeat all out protections, and cause us harm we need to pick our selves up accept that we live with risk and get on with our lives. The oceans no longer protect us as they used to. We live in a dangerous world.

The oceans do keep us safe from the aliens from Signs.

I realize that this was a wake up call, and I think we can all agree on that point. The question is: who should we be afraid of? I'll leave that to you to decide.

Dilbert1234567 · 09-29-2006, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

What do you mean by steel building? Do you mean steel reinforced? A truss system is a type of steel reinforcement.

I mean up until 9/11 the only fires that burned in steel buildings (that were serious) were in buildings with out steel trusses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

If you mean a building made completly of steel, then that's a very interesting idea I'd like to explore further. Wouldn't it get really hot in the summer?

The steel trusses are designed with summer heat in mind, and the heat from summer is not really enough to do that much expansion, unless things are poorly planed (see the train tracks I’ve posted a few times)

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

The steel was shipped off, most of it to India, where it was melted down. Some of that steel is being used to create a naval military vessal, as I understand it.

The steel first went to the junk yard, where they had plenty of time to look it over, as I have said already, they said they had all the time they needed with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

The oceans do keep us safe from the aliens from Signs.

Never saw it, any good? I’m wary of Mel Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I realize that this was a wake up call, and I think we can all agree on that point. The question is: who should we be afraid of? I'll leave that to you to decide.

the government, we should not fear the terrorist, that is what they want, we should raise the middle finger to say ‘FUCK YOU, were gona keep living like we want to live in our country’, we should have rebuilt the towers to look the same, (with a new structure design to fix the problems of the originals) and kept on going. As for the government we should fear how they will abuse the fear our nation is undergoing. Anyone see this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoRjbIQMXGQ
Scares the Crap out of me... what we did is wrong, and punishable by death, so let’s pardon our selves under the guise of national security. I call bull shit on that. (I disagree with the death penalty, but that’s a different thread.)

fastom · 09-29-2006, 11:54 PM

Raise your hand if you think "US two" needs his knuckles rapped.

(nobody typing, guess their hands are up?)

That aside, who saus the steel was saved and inspected? That Corley fella sounds like just a government PR man, head of the OKC building team too, eh?

If a Cessna crashed into a garden shed there would be more investigation than in the WTC farce. Reassembling the buildings should have been mandatory. Finding out exactly what went wrong so that hundreds of thousands of other existing buildings and all new construction can be deemed safe or not (and torn down?) should have been of the utmost importance. So what now? Don't go in tall buildings anymore?

I can't believe there isn't more vocal concern from the affected trades. Architects, construction companies, pilots, etc. There is some, i wish i could find the old pilots forum where they discussed the hijacking method and impossible aerial manouvers several years ago.

Dilbert1234567 · 09-30-2006, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

That aside, who saus the steel was saved and inspected? That Corley fella sounds like just a government PR man, head of the OKC building team too, eh?

The last bit was removed on may 29th 2002, plenty of time to collect samples and study them. And for the record, Corley is a Dr, and the head of the Building Performance Assessment Team, not some PR man. If you take 20 sec to use google, you can find his BIO

Quote:

Originally Posted by http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full02/mar06/corley.htm

W. Gene Corley

Senior Vice President

gcorley @ c-t-l.com

Educational Background •

University of Illinois

B.S. Civil Engineering, 1958

M.S. Structural Engineering, 1960

Ph.D. Structural Engineering, 1961

Registration •

Licensed Structural Engineer - Illinois

Licensed Professional Engineer - Illinois

Registered Civil Engineer - California, Hawaii

Registered Professional Engineer - Alabama,
Florida, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington

Chartered Engineer, FI Struct E, UK

CTL Experience • Dr. Corley has served as CTL Vice President since 1987. In this position, he serves as CTL’s managing agent for professional and structural engineering and leads structural evaluation projects related to industrial, transportation and parking facilities, bridges and buildings. He also is active in projects related to earthquake engineering. His wide range of experience includes evaluation of earthquake and blast damaged buildings and bridges; investigation of distress in prestressed concrete structures; repair of parking garages damaged by corrosion; evaluation and repair of high rise buildings, stadiums, silos and bridges; design and construction of repairs for prestressed and conventionally-reinforced, precast and cast-in-place concrete and structural steel facilities. In 1995, Dr. Corley was selected by ASCE to lead a Building Performance Assessment Team investigating the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

Prior Experience • After receiving his B.S. degree, Dr. Corley worked for the Shelby County, Illinois highway department where he designed highways and bridges. He then returned to the University of Illinois as a research assistant and National Science Foundation teaching fellow while pursuing his graduate studies.

Upon completion of his Ph.D., he served as a commissioned officer in the U.S. Army from 1961 until 1964. During this period, Dr. Corley was a research and development coordinator with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers at Fort Belvoir, Virginia. His duties included bridge design, acceptance testing of mobile floating assault bridge equipment, design of tank launched bridges and fatigue testing of bridges fabricated from high strength steel, aircraft aluminum and titanium alloys.

In 1964, Dr. Corley began work as a development engineer with the Portland Cement Association. While serving in successively more responsible positions, he was directly involved in the development of improved design procedures for structural concrete, concrete pavement, railroads and structures subjected to fire loads. In addition, he served on an earthquake damage investigation team, carried out investigations of damaged or deteriorated structures and developed repair procedures for numerous buildings and bridges.

Publications and Professional Activities •

W. Gene Corley has authored more than 150 technical papers and books. He frequently lectures to technical and non-technical groups on the subjects of prevention of failures, effects of earthquakes and design and repair of structures. He regularly presents training courses on reinforced concrete design and teaches the seismic design portion of a refresher course to candidates for the Illinois Structural Engineering License examination.

Dr. Corley chaired ACI Committee 318 for six years as the committee developed the 1995 Building Code Requirements for Structural Concrete. He also serves on several other national and international committees that prepare recommendations for structural design and for design of earthquake resistant buildings and bridges. His professional activities resulted in his receiving 11 national awards including the Best Structural Publication Award from NCSEA, Outstanding Paper from the ASCE Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities, the Wason Award for research from ACI, the T.Y. Lin Award from ASCE and the Martin Korn Award for PCI. He also has received several regional awards, including the UIUC Civil Engineering Alumni Association's Distinguished Alumnus Award, the SEAOI Service Award, Illinois ASCE Structural Division's Lifetime Achievement Award, the Henry Crown Award, and the SEAOI John Parmer Award.

Dr. Corley serves or has served in leadership roles for numerous professional organizations, both national and international, including the following:

American Society of Civil Engineers (Fellow)

National Society of Professional Engineers (Member)

National Council of Structural Engineers Associations (Founding Member, Board of Direction, Former President)

American Concrete Institute (Fellow) Former Chairman, Committee on Standard Building Code

American Railway Engineering Association (Member)

Building Seismic Safety Council (Former Vice-Chairman and Founding Member, Board of Direction)

Chicago Committee on High Rise Buildings (Member and Former Chairman)

Earthquake Engineering Research Institute (Member and Former President, Great Lakes Chapter)

Institution of Structural Engineers, UK (Fellow)

International Association for Bridge and Structural Engineering (Member)

National Academy of Engineering (Member)

National Association of Railroad Safety Consultants and Investigators (Member)

NACE International (Member)

Prestressed Concrete Institute (Member)

RILEM (Member)

Post Tensioning Institute (Member)

Transportation Research Board (Member)

Structural Engineers Association of Illinois (Member, Former President)

Governor’s Earthquake Preparedness Task Force (Illinois)

You should do more research before you call some one ‘just a PR man’ this man is a well respected structural engineer, not some 2 bit crony.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

If a Cessna crashed into a garden shed there would be more investigation than in the WTC farce. Reassembling the buildings should have been mandatory.

Uh huh, yeah, reconstruct the towers… they were rubble; no way could they be reconstructed. They were sorted through; they found no explosives, just burned, warped girders and trusses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

Finding out exactly what went wrong so that hundreds of thousands of other existing buildings and all new construction can be deemed safe or not (and torn down?) should have been of the utmost importance. So what now? Don't go in tall buildings anymore?

if you have not figured it out yet, steel trusses are unsafe when exposed to fire, and plane impact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

I can't believe there isn't more vocal concern from the affected trades. Architects, construction companies, pilots, etc. There is some, i wish i could find the old pilots forum where they discussed the hijacking method and impossible aerial manouvers several years ago.

It’s not more vocal because most people understand that experts know what they are talking about, when 99.9% of all the structural engineers and other experts say it’s possible.

And I’ve finally got a chance to look into the Madrid fire, and you’ve got it all wrong, as well as the conspiracy theorist have your facts all wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by http://www.concretefireforum.org.uk/main.asp?page=0

Dr. Pal Chana of the British Cement Association demonstrated the relative likelihood of floor collapse in a steel versus concrete framed building, using the vivid example of the Madrid Windsor Tower fire which raged over 26 hours on 14-15 February 2005. This former landmark office block of 30 storeys featured a concrete core throughout, but with concrete columns up to the 21st floor and steel columns between the 22nd and 30th floors. Remarkably, despite the intensity and duration of the fire, the concrete floors and columns remained intact however, the steel supported floors above the 21st floor collapsed, leaving the concrete core in-situ and exposed.

Its funny, when ever I read an article on this on the conspiracy theorist webpage, I never see this photo of the tower:
http://www.911myths.com/assets/image...id_remains.jpg
The one where most of the upper steel floors are CLEARLY COLLAPSED. See all that twisted rubble; that was the steel support on the upper floors, all that is left is the concrete, which did not exist in the WTC as support; it was only layered on top of the steel trusses offering no support.

I will eventually have the time to debunk all your wild claims, half truths, and distortions with real facts, it takes some time, but I do time and time again. You may want to fact check your work before I expose it for what it is.

nsfx · 09-30-2006, 02:14 AM

Here's my stance: I do not put blind faith in any conspiracy theory, and I definitely do not put blind faith in the government. I think everyone here would agree that more facts are needed in order to sort things out. By "facts", I am referring to deductions based on hard evidence. By "hard evidence," I am referring to official *unedited* media (full-length quality video tapes and audio recordings, interviews with various relevant personell, et c.) and official reports (scientific statistics, reports, blue prints, et c.).

That having been said, I ask (cynically): Who has the goods? The citizens don't... or at least not anymore (e.g., the videos that would have been the most compelling were all confiscated immediately). The media doesn't. Alex Jones doesn't. Dylan Avery doesn't. What we have is incomplete information from a variety of sources ranging from poor to decent credibility. I certainly admire the people playing detective and trying to sort things out, and it's amazing to see how far some studies have come like /Loose Change/. But there is still a certain amount of fog... at least for me.

Surely the government must know there are a lot of skeptical Americans out there. So, if it's so cut and dry simple -- if the traditional story of the terrorist hijackers is so plainly and obviously true -- then why doesn't the government just take care of its *concerned* citizens and clear up all the bullshit once and for all? Release a better video of the Pentagon attack or something. Explain the melting steel issue. Explain the cell phones. Explain _something_! I mean if it's really as simple as the conservative media makes it out to be, then disproving (with *hard* evidence) *everything* in a study like /Loose Change/ would be a piece of cake.

Until then I have to be wary of my government which I already disagree with on a number of out-in-the-open issues.

Seaver · 09-30-2006, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Never saw it, any good? I’m wary of Mel Gibson

It wasn't Mel who ruined the movie, it was M. Night Shamawhatever. Aliens come millions of light years to invade a planet in which is 70-80% water.... just happens to be the very chemical which instantly kills them. Nevermind the humidity... just stupid imo.

Cynthetiq · 09-30-2006, 08:24 AM

here is one of the galleries that gathered up personal photos taken on 9/11. I have some personal ones that I never submitted (none of the towers directly) and they sit in my trove of digital photos.

this gallery was on prince street and lived off donations for about a year or so.

http://hereisnewyork.org

Willravel · 09-30-2006, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

It wasn't Mel who ruined the movie, it was M. Night Shamawhatever. Aliens come millions of light years to invade a planet in which is 70-80% water.... just happens to be the very chemical which instantly kills them. Nevermind the humidity... just stupid imo.

It's good to agree with you, Seaver.

Dilbert1234567 · 09-30-2006, 09:13 AM

First off, welcome to the forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsfx

Here's my stance: I do not put blind faith in any conspiracy theory, and I definitely do not put blind faith in the government. I think everyone here would agree that more facts are needed in order to sort things out. By "facts", I am referring to deductions based on hard evidence. By "hard evidence," I am referring to official *unedited* media (full-length quality video tapes and audio recordings, interviews with various relevant personell, et c.) and official reports (scientific statistics, reports, blue prints, et c.).

There has been plenty of evidence gathered, plenty of experts in there fields have investigated the events, and time and time again, it is shown both through the evidence in the rubble and through simulation that steel trusses with out there fire proofing are unsafe and will collapse when exposed to fire (not to mention a plane).

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsfx

That having been said, I ask (cynically): Who has the goods? The citizens don't... or at least not anymore (e.g., the videos that would have been the most compelling were all confiscated immediately). The media doesn't. Alex Jones doesn't. Dylan Avery doesn't. What we have is incomplete information from a variety of sources ranging from poor to decent credibility. I certainly admire the people playing detective and trying to sort things out, and it's amazing to see how far some studies have come like /Loose Change/. But there is still a certain amount of fog... at least for me.

The videos that were gobbled up are being released, to the public. I don’t know why they were taken in the first place, overreaction on the government’s side I guess, but they are being released, with exception being the security cameras at the pentagon its self, unfortunately, it is a security risk to release there positions, I completely understand them not wanting to release those tapes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsfx

Surely the government must know there are a lot of skeptical Americans out there. So, if it's so cut and dry simple -- if the traditional story of the terrorist hijackers is so plainly and obviously true -- then why doesn't the government just take care of its *concerned* citizens and clear up all the bullshit once and for all? Release a better video of the Pentagon attack or something. Explain the melting steel issue. Explain the cell phones. Explain _something_! I mean if it's really as simple as the conservative media makes it out to be, then disproving (with *hard* evidence) *everything* in a study like /Loose Change/ would be a piece of cake.

They have cleared up many of the issues you raised, you just have to look. There was no melted steel, none, this is a common misconception that many conspiracy theorist post on there web pages that is just plane wrong. no one besides them has claimed it was molten steel, all quotes that I have seen regarding the molten metal have been disputed by the person saying they were quoted, disputed that they said metal, not steel.
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsfx

Until then I have to be wary of my government which I already disagree with on a number of out-in-the-open issues.

Don’t be wary of the government for 9/11; be wary of what they do in the name of 9/11.

Willravel · 09-30-2006, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

Don’t be wary of the government for 9/11; be wary of what they do in the name of 9/11.

Even if you don't believe that the government was behind 9/11, surely you must know that their ineptitude played some part in the attacks. 9/11 shows us the same thing as every other action by the current administration: either they are massivly stupid and incapable of running a country, or they are more Machivellian than any of us are able to admit and are purpousfull in every action.

Dilbert1234567 · 09-30-2006, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Even if you don't believe that the government was behind 9/11, surely you must know that their ineptitude played some part in the attacks. 9/11 shows us the same thing as every other action by the current administration: either they are massivly stupid and incapable of running a country, or they are more Machivellian than any of us are able to admit and are purpousfull in every action.

No disagreement here did you see my link from a few post ago? What they are doing is criminal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoRjbIQMXGQ
I fully believe that some of the blame rest on the administrations ineptitude, but it will take a lot more than circumstantial evidence to make me think they let it happen willfully.

hrandani · 09-30-2006, 04:36 PM

Put me down on the list of people who say:

Who cares about 9/11. It happened - we can't change it. Nobody will ever believe that the government did it, unless Bush gets on camera and says oh hey guys - our bad. We meant well. And there's no way to prove it.

What's more important is have you seen what's happening today? The house and the senate are in the process of not only just legalized torture, but secret prisons and with an amendement to pardon Bush from any war crimes he "may" have committed. Sure it's terrible that 2,000 people died. But why is what we are doing now helping any of that?

How are we expecting to subjugate the Iraqi people into following a regime they don't like. If we hold elections and they vote overwhelmingly for a religious leader, - give it to them. A return to the isolationist policies of yore and GTFO of Iraq and Iran.

Dilbert1234567 · 09-30-2006, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrandani

Who cares about 9/11. It happened - we can't change it. Nobody will ever believe that the government did it, unless Bush gets on camera and says oh hey guys - our bad. We meant well. And there's no way to prove it.

There are people who firmly believe that 9/11 was orchestrated by our government, unfortunately, no matter how much evidence you show them, they still believe what they want to, no matter the facts; it’s like religious faith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrandani

What's more important is have you seen what's happening today? The house and the senate are in the process of not only just legalized torture, but secret prisons and with an amendement to pardon Bush from any war crimes he "may" have committed. Sure it's terrible that 2,000 people died. But why is what we are doing now helping any of that?

And what they are doing currently is a travesty, as for the war crimes, change ‘may’, to ‘did’ no matter if it was justified or not (I don’t think any thing like what we have done is justified) they still broke the law, and should be punished.

Cynthetiq · 09-30-2006, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

There are people who firmly believe that 9/11 was orchestrated by our government, unfortunately, no matter how much evidence you show them, they still believe what they want to, no matter the facts; it’s like religious faith.

And what they are doing currently is a travesty, as for the war crimes, change ‘may’, to ‘did’ no matter if it was justified or not (I don’t think any thing like what we have done is justified) they still broke the law, and should be punished.

so what happens to the world if it comes out that the POTUS or some US faction was behind it? does the price of gas change? do we get to stop going to work? do we stop having elections?

In my world no matter what happens, I still have to go to work. I still have to pay taxes. I still have bills that need to pe attended to and paid.

Will? What does it mean to you if suddenly real evidence comes out that solidifies it as such...

Ch'i · 09-30-2006, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

so what happens to the world if it comes out that the POTUS or some US faction was behind it? does the price of gas change? do we get to stop going to work? do we stop having elections?

In my world no matter what happens, I still have to go to work. I still have to pay taxes. I still have bills that need to pe attended to and paid.

Will? What does it mean to you if suddenly real evidence comes out that solidifies it as such...

So your saying that if it doesn't affect your daily life, why care?

Wow cynthetiq, wow.

Cynthetiq · 09-30-2006, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch'i

So your saying that if it doesn't affect your daily life, why care?

Wow cynthetiq, wow.

Never said that... just that in the scheme of things... does those that believe this what does their world change into?

I live in the city that was attacked. I was witness to what happened that day. My mother in law was in the Deutche Bank building across the street from WTC.

NYC lives with the affects more than any other city IMO. I see National Guards, bomb sniffing dogs, streets that have been removed access to public because of fear of car bombs, cops wanting to check backpacks in subways, most places have metal detectors at movie theaters, and other inconveniences and civil liberty encumbrances.

Yet, I can tell you that people here those that lost people and those that worked here. Thier lives have returned to some sort of normalcy where they have to do the things that one does in life. Go to work, see family, pay bills, pay taxes.

edit: also I'm curious as to those that are so adamant about this, how far they are willing to go, be ready for revolution? take up arms? what?

Willravel · 09-30-2006, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Will? What does it mean to you if suddenly real evidence comes out that solidifies it as such...

Honestly? A bit of vindication, for one. For two, I join the impeachment movement. For three, I show the evidence to everyone and their brother, so that they know what really happened. Four, I visit the former location of the wtc and sit and think. Five, I yell at my uncle for lying to me. Six, I laugh at anyone stupid enough to vote for Bush.

Dilbert1234567 · 09-30-2006, 06:29 PM

I’m with you on six. My grandmother, die hard republican, has voted republican in every election since the beginning of time, did not vote for bush, she just could not bring her self to vote for him. Although I’m always for a good bush bashing… Will, what else are you still needing explained about the events of 9/11 so we can put this to bed.

Willravel · 09-30-2006, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

I’m with you on six. My grandmother, die hard republican, has voted republican in every election since the beginning of time, did not vote for bush, she just could not bring her self to vote for him. Although I’m always for a good bush bashing… Will, what else are you still needing explained about the events of 9/11 so we can put this to bed.

We've been going around in circles because of our differing conclusions based on the same evidence. At this point, I don't see me convincing you nor you convincing me.

It's like we both have some fire and some water. When you put them together what happens? I say that the fire boils the water into vapor, you say that the water puts out the fire. Whos' to say who's right? There really is no way to prove it unless we repeat the experiment, and we can't do that with the Pentagon or the WTC. Granted, this is an oversimplification, but I think it gets across what I'm trying to say.

Stalemate. We've gone over most everything. We have differing opinions about things. There is no way that I can prove conclusively that the WTC wasn't brought down by fire and crash damage. Likewise, there is no way you can prove that they were. There are pages of wonderful material from both of us that probe this problem very deeply, but the science is theoretical, and the solutions unprovable. The thermal expansion, for one. I think that it could have made the floors stronger, you think it made them weaker. Same evidence, good arguments, no provable conclusions, no concensus. Stalemate. I would guess we've reached stalemate already on at least 20 different issues.

I'm glad that we can at least agree that the villans in this movie are the current administration, even if we cannot totally agree on all their crimes.

So there it is. I will answer questions if anyone has them, but I have to call a truce with Dilbert. If anyone has noticed, my contributions to this thread have waned lately, becuase I don't have the time or energy to give Dilbert (or Cynth, or anyone else for that matter) the discussion he deserves (they deserve).

Dilbert1234567 · 09-30-2006, 08:04 PM

The only reason were at a stale mate is I haven't explained why the expansion would make the floors weaker as well as I should. I’ll get on that.

Willravel · 09-30-2006, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

The only reason were at a stale mate is I haven't explained why the expansion would make the floors weaker as well as I should. I’ll get on that.

That was one example. Another would be the buildings collapsing in a little under and a little over an hour. Another point would be the collapse of building 7. Another point, etc, etc, etc.

Dilbert1234567 · 09-30-2006, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

That was one example. Another would be the buildings collapsing in a little under and a little over an hour. Another point would be the collapse of building 7. Another point, etc, etc, etc.

those are next.

09-28-2006, 06:43 AM	#682 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	to seaver, and everyone else, can we please start citing who we quote, its easy, if you did not know, inside of the of the first quote inside of brackets, make it quote=name [quote=some guy] __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

09-28-2006, 07:03 AM	#683 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I'm sure Al Gore would have been decisive and stopped the terrorist attack on 9/11. But its time to get back to asking... Will, I'm not clear still, were the insurance companies in on it too? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-28-2006, 07:06 AM	#684 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I watched this last night, well some of it before I went to bed on Discovery Times channel. I have seen footage of that day I never had seen before. Attack on the Pentagon Examine the day Flight 77 flew into one of the most famous buildings in the world. Through eyewitness accounts, follow the 757 as it descended to within 3,000 feet of the White House, banked over the Potomac, turned and attacked the Pentagon. SEP 28 2006 @ 10:00 AM OCT 01 2006 @ 07:00 PM OCT 30 2006 @ 04:00 PM __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

09-30-2006, 02:14 AM	#703 (permalink)
nsfx Tilted Location: NJ	Here's my stance: I do not put blind faith in any conspiracy theory, and I definitely do not put blind faith in the government. I think everyone here would agree that more facts are needed in order to sort things out. By "facts", I am referring to deductions based on hard evidence. By "hard evidence," I am referring to official unedited media (full-length quality video tapes and audio recordings, interviews with various relevant personell, et c.) and official reports (scientific statistics, reports, blue prints, et c.). That having been said, I ask (cynically): Who has the goods? The citizens don't... or at least not anymore (e.g., the videos that would have been the most compelling were all confiscated immediately). The media doesn't. Alex Jones doesn't. Dylan Avery doesn't. What we have is incomplete information from a variety of sources ranging from poor to decent credibility. I certainly admire the people playing detective and trying to sort things out, and it's amazing to see how far some studies have come like /Loose Change/. But there is still a certain amount of fog... at least for me. Surely the government must know there are a lot of skeptical Americans out there. So, if it's so cut and dry simple -- if the traditional story of the terrorist hijackers is so plainly and obviously true -- then why doesn't the government just take care of its concerned citizens and clear up all the bullshit once and for all? Release a better video of the Pentagon attack or something. Explain the melting steel issue. Explain the cell phones. Explain _something_! I mean if it's really as simple as the conservative media makes it out to be, then disproving (with hard evidence) everything in a study like /Loose Change/ would be a piece of cake. Until then I have to be wary of my government which I already disagree with on a number of out-in-the-open issues. __________________ "...as no thought can perish, so no act is without infinite result." - E. A. Poe

09-30-2006, 08:24 AM	#705 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	here is one of the galleries that gathered up personal photos taken on 9/11. I have some personal ones that I never submitted (none of the towers directly) and they sit in my trove of digital photos. this gallery was on prince street and lived off donations for about a year or so. http://hereisnewyork.org __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

09-28-2006, 09:34 PM	#685 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	Well Dil is at least partly on the right track. The Presi-dunce is responsible for the lack of followup... c'mon it's like a bad joke. Get in a car accident that draws blood and you ain't moving the car till they investigate. Here they shovel the whole friggin' works off to the dump... no, worse... they send it to be recycled... destroyed. So that nobody will ever find out the truth. We can point out inconsistancies, we can scoff at their lame explanations but actual prove-it-in-court evidence was destroyed. That is not by accident or oversight. It's criminal contempt.

09-29-2006, 10:30 AM	#687 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	I don't buy that. In an airplane crash they sometimes reassemble the whole plane from the tiny scraps recovered. Stuff was being trucked out of the WTC site very soon afterwards. Here's a more truthful explanation... http://911review.com/coverup/fema_wtc.html

09-29-2006, 11:54 PM	#701 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	Raise your hand if you think "US two" needs his knuckles rapped. (nobody typing, guess their hands are up?) That aside, who saus the steel was saved and inspected? That Corley fella sounds like just a government PR man, head of the OKC building team too, eh? If a Cessna crashed into a garden shed there would be more investigation than in the WTC farce. Reassembling the buildings should have been mandatory. Finding out exactly what went wrong so that hundreds of thousands of other existing buildings and all new construction can be deemed safe or not (and torn down?) should have been of the utmost importance. So what now? Don't go in tall buildings anymore? I can't believe there isn't more vocal concern from the affected trades. Architects, construction companies, pilots, etc. There is some, i wish i could find the old pilots forum where they discussed the hijacking method and impossible aerial manouvers several years ago.

09-30-2006, 04:36 PM	#710 (permalink)
hrandani Insane	Put me down on the list of people who say: Who cares about 9/11. It happened - we can't change it. Nobody will ever believe that the government did it, unless Bush gets on camera and says oh hey guys - our bad. We meant well. And there's no way to prove it. What's more important is have you seen what's happening today? The house and the senate are in the process of not only just legalized torture, but secret prisons and with an amendement to pardon Bush from any war crimes he "may" have committed. Sure it's terrible that 2,000 people died. But why is what we are doing now helping any of that? How are we expecting to subjugate the Iraqi people into following a regime they don't like. If we hold elections and they vote overwhelmingly for a religious leader, - give it to them. A return to the isolationist policies of yore and GTFO of Iraq and Iran.

09-30-2006, 06:29 PM	#716 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	I’m with you on six. My grandmother, die hard republican, has voted republican in every election since the beginning of time, did not vote for bush, she just could not bring her self to vote for him. Although I’m always for a good bush bashing… Will, what else are you still needing explained about the events of 9/11 so we can put this to bed. __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

09-30-2006, 08:04 PM	#718 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	The only reason were at a stale mate is I haven't explained why the expansion would make the floors weaker as well as I should. I’ll get on that. __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen