Cynthetiq

<p>I was reading the LA Times this morning and came across this article. Last weekend I happened to catch a VH1Classic showing of a live Rush concert. I commented to the wife about Neil's drumkit and how huge it is. So I called up my buddy in LA to tell him to catch it, not only didn't he have VH1Classic as a selection on DirecTV, but he also said he had outgrown listening to Rush.</p><p><a href="http://http://photobucket.com/albums/v141/cynthetiq/th_neil261.gif"><img alt="Image hosting by Photobucket" src="http://photobucket.com/albums/v141/cynthetiq/th_neil261.gif" /></a> <a href="http://http://photobucket.com/albums/v141/cynthetiq/th_neil25.gif"><img alt="Image hosting by Photobucket" src="http://photobucket.com/albums/v141/cynthetiq/th_neil25.gif" /></a></p>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Venue/9123/?200627" target="_blank">Neil Pert's Drum Kit</a>

<blockquote><p><h4>800 WORDS</h4><h1>The Big Bang</h1>By Dan Neil
January 22, 2006
Once upon a time, giants thundered across the land: Moon, Bonham, Baker, Palmer. These sweaty and indifferently groomed young men gave the world that curious and hard-to-love artifact of rock, the drum solo. <p></p><p>Won't somebody please hold up a flaming lighter?</p><p>For a couple of decades—from, say, 1967, the release of the first Vanilla Fudge album with Carmine Appice on skins, to the break-up of the Police, when drummer Stewart Copeland and Sting could at last no longer stand the sight of each other—the drum solo was a reliable part of arena rock's audio furniture.</p><p>And I was there. Nazareth. Black Sabbath. Pink Floyd. Yes. Emerson Lake and Palmer. Blue Oyster Cult. Aerosmith. Queen. The Who. Jethro Tull. I'm one of those few survivors who saw Led Zeppelin in concert—how quaint that sounds now—and heard John Bonham play the furious and fundamental "Moby Dick," with its phase-shifted tympani, tom-toms played barehanded like Indian tabla, machine-gun triplets and cymbals hissing like lava pouring into the sea.</p><p>It's been 25 years since Bonham's tragically clichéd drummer's death—choking on his own vomit during an alcoholic blackout—and while he is sorely missed, the same can't be said of the drum solo per se. Somewhere along the way, the drum solo became a rock-and-roll punch line of the "More cowbell!" variety. Among the top concert draws of 2005, the Rolling Stones didn't break stride to give Charlie Watts—an exceptional jazz drummer when not propping up Mick and the lads—a 20-minute showcase; neither did U2 step aside for an intimate moment with drummer Larry Mullen Jr., because if they did, well, just think of the crush at the snack bar.</p><p>The passing of rock drum solos was so unlamented that I might have missed it but for a new DVD by Neil Peart called "Anatomy of a Drum Solo." Peart is the drummer/percussionist for the arena rock institution Rush and is widely considered the greatest living rock drummer. By my calculation, Peart is also
the most prolific drum soloist ever. In its astounding 31-year history with its original lineup, Rush has spent more time on the road than the Roman army, and there was always, always a drum solo in the show. At least there was the five times I saw them. So I called Neil Peart to ask: What happened to the drum solo?</p><p>"Rock drummers killed the solo themselves," Peart tells me when we meet at a coffee shop in Santa Monica. "It got to be so predictable and manipulative. They cheapened it by making it a clap-along or a boring ramble."</p><p>Oh yeah. Few things in music are so grating as a long, thrashing drum solo by some sweaty dude working his way around the trap kit (Tommy Lee, are you listening?). The trouble is, it was always so. One of the sacred texts of solo drumming is Ron Bushy's notoriously flatulent 2 1/2-minute tumble on Iron
Butterfly's 1968 monster hit "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida."</p><p>"Even as a kid I hated that song," says Peart. "It was the anti-drum solo.</p><p>There was no technique, no musicality, no dynamics at all.</p><p>If you owned this album, that's not incense you're smelling, it's shame.</p><p>Peart's larger point is that the rock drum solo, which emerged out of an honorable tradition of showmanship set by big band players such as Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich, rapidly descended into musical cynicism. Partly at fault was the economics of the arena itself. When rock bands started selling out 10,000-seat coliseums in one town after another, any sense of intimacy—or rock's rebellion—was swallowed by the vacancy of the venue itself. The drum solo became part of a repertoire of arena-rock tricks to pull huge and disconnected audiences into the show.</p><p>"Asking the audience to clap along can be part of a really sincere desire to include the audience in the music or the performance," says Peart, "or it can be just like pressing a button. It can be a beautiful thing or an ugly thing."</p><p>So what started out as a virtuoso exploration of an instrument's solo potential became, almost immediately, rock's 7th-inning stretch.</p><p>The other big problem with drum solos? The audience. It became clear to me after watching Peart's explanatory DVD that civilians—which is to say non-drummers—don't really understand what they're hearing. In one section of Peart's "Der Trommler" solo, he keeps waltz time, 3/4 rhythm (PA-tah-tah, PA-tah-tah) with his feet, while playing lightning-fast 6/8 and 7/8 drum fills across his other drums. In terms of physical coordination, this is something like playing badminton with two rackets while typing with your feet. But if you hadn't been enlightened, you might think it just sounds like billiard balls in a dryer.</p><p>Peart amiably disagrees, wincing at the suggestion that the audience somehow just doesn't get it. "Drumming shouldn't be something you need an education to appreciate." After all, he says, "You can't blame the audience for everything." </p></blockquote>

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jth

Yeah well pop music today is the absense of listenable solos period (imo).

Guitar, Drum, Piano, Bass whatever solos have been replaced by dance breaks and video dialog clips on MTV. The level of musicality in live band style music (rock mainly) has gone down hill except for the fact that the cats pumping out the crap in Nashville can still play!

People either do not want to hear a ripping guitar solo anymore Or more likely don't know what a good Solo sounds like. I listened to a lot of pop music, and played and taught a lot of pop rock music over the last 2 years and did not hear ONE well put together solo. They were all crap. I would listen and then play something for my students off a CD that actually had someone who could freakin' play. When I think Rolling stone stated that Cobain's Smells like Teen Spirit solo is one of the 100 best all time solos.... a restatement of a melody that was indicative of 13th century Church Chant (which is translate to, if you haven't heard the Greogorian Chant of SLTS it's a hoot), how can we expect people to really appreciate even a relatively simple (albeit obscenly tastful) Eric Clapton solo?

I'm not holding artists like Hendrix, Page, Van Hallen over people's heads here. I sympathize greatly. I think there should be drum solos. I love drum solos! But the level of competent drummers out there who could play one in a rock band is a sad number. Then again, we are nostalgic for the days of Bonzo beating the sweet shit out of the drum kit for 20 minutes on Moby Dick.

Alas indeed those days are long gone. Again, in favor of a death droll drum machine kicking out syncopated 16th notes. I doubt a lot of young people even know what a real human drummer is capable of anymore.

sorry for the rant.

Music is my life

snowy

I'm glad to see my favorite drummer, Ginger Baker, was included in the first four "giants."

The death of the drum solo is a sad, sad fact in modern music. The fact is, the modern listener doesn't have the attention span for a good drum solo any more. Drummers have also been relegated to strictly being the backbone in modern music: admirable, yes, but a good drummer is so much more than backbone.

Guitar solos--at least truly great guitar solos--are also sadly lacking these days (notably not in British rock, however...for this I reference my favorite band Muse) in popular American rock music.

Personally, I think the fact is that many modern musicians are decidedly lacking in skill and therefore refrain from showing off anything remotely resembling talent. Harsh, but true. Some rock music (again, not American) proves to be a notable exception to this, thank God.

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WillyPete

I got your drum solo right here baby!
Tony Royster - 1997 7 minutes.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...67722104021421

Really awesome to see this kid.
I must admit, a lot of it is very technical at the beginning, running through some movements that seem disassociated, but about 2 minutes in it progresses to more of a showpiece.

vanblah

I just finished up recording a full-length CD at a local studio here in town. Should you choose to download it you will hear several guitar solos, several keyboard/piano solos and one drum solo.

We decided to keep these solo sections short (less than 4 measures in most cases) for a couple of reasons:

1) we are not into masturbatory rock.
2) we are not geniuses on our instruments (well, I am, but I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings ...)
3) we didn't want to bore anyone with the solo sections. We consider them just a little bit of spice to the over-all flavor.

I love a good solo on any instrument, but I simply can't stand the masturbatory level that guitar "jam" bands take it to. Hey look at me I can play scales and modal harmonies and infinite passing tones.

Unfortunately, jth and onesnowyowl are all too correct about modern players. A good drum solo is something exciting and can be amazing to hear. A bad drum solo can throw off the entire band and put the listener to sleep. Not many people can actually play a good solo though ...

jth

i must say that I am bias being a musician myself and a Jazz guitarist at that. Jazz player take long solos that are almost always to long. That's a thing about the music that turns people away from at as the average music listener cannot connect on a level with music that has no words.

That being said, I don't think it quashes any of my points. Music has changed a lot in 30 year, in terms of what people expect from music... people want to dance and share emotional moments through music more then artist expression of what words might not be sufficient for.

I played a gig on Thursday night when the shortest tune was 14 minutes long because as a Jazz quartet we wanted to stretch out and explore the music, and the musicians. It's a very different thing. I agree, jam band players who know a few scales but really can't play shit (sorry, just because you know a few scales doesn't mean you can blow a good solo. BB King uses like 3 scales and he's BB F'n King). Nothing sucks more then a long, pointless, directionless solo from any instrument.

Therefore I'm sort of glad that there aren't a lot of guitar solos out there of any length beyond perhaps 8 bar tops... reason... people can't play something worth listening to over 4 bars only except for people who are talented, have ut in the time on their axe and have some sort of musical vision.

That's a debate for another time.

I'm going to listen to some Zepplin now.

roachboy

caveat lector: i never liked rush. i tired, i really did...
and i think peart is at best only partially correct in blaming drummers for such problems as he sees.


rock doesnt really give you much room to do interesting things
ba doom chuck/ba doom doom chuck....
the drummer is straightjacketed
ba doom chuck/ba doom doom chuck
i like to blame commercial radio
[[small break of your choice]]

if i was to be faithful to the form, i would paste the above over and over.
after 4 minutes, it'd stop.

this drumming business opens onto some complicated questions, i think: for example the main difference between the period during which cream was playing and now is that earlier the genre rules that dictated what musicians could and could not do if they work within a given form were less strictly defined.

a subset of the above: pop song form is not about development. it is about statement and variation (verse, bridge, chorus: lather, rinse, repeat)....if you do extended versions live, say, of pieces built around this logic, it means that the structure is rigid and the players are reduced to soloists whose function it is to provide ornamentation. personally, i find few things more tedious than running chord changes. i do not see why it is interesting--no, that's not right--i do not see why one, very particular way of interacting with harmonic structures is now taken to be the only way to interact with it.

i blame commercial radio. people want what they already know. they are not interested in new things unless they are told new things are out there. in the states, the vehicle for such information was commercial radio, which has been slowly strangled since the middle 1970s by marketing-driven format changes. phenomena like mtv only extend this older logic--it popularized the video, but invented almost nothing in terms of marketing ideas.
and in the states, a place in general characterized by fear and contempt of the arts, there is almost nothing available in terms of alternative funding, so if you want to play music and make a living, you have to submit to commerical strictures.

that doesnt mean that all musicians in the states do this: but most folk do not know about these players because they get no exposure to speak of.

and this is why, in general, interesting new music is accessed through very local lilve scenes. which have no filters, so lots of folk participate in them--so the quality varies wildly. but there we are. this is also why i totally oppose the riaa and its position on file sharing: i would like almost nothing better than to see the majors collapse and pull down this entire restrictive, tedious way of domesticating music along with them.


cream did not operate in the same context and so wasn't bound by the same rules --so even though they took blues forms as points of departure----once they would jump out of the form, all elements would develop simultaneously--which opens up space for more extended kinds of work, both as a collective and as a collective 2 parts of which are laying out for a "drum solo"---but even cream encountered this same problem: they too would often appear to be simply wandering around because a rigid structure remained the referencepoint, and development was subordinated to structure.

ba doom chuck/ba doom doom chuck

i think that music is about development, not statements. things should move from place to place, and that movement should be clear. i dont think, against what vanblah said above, that this assumes you imagine yourself to be a "musical genius"--whatever that means--it is more a matter of approach. and it is not about length, either: anton webern's pieces are often under 2 minutes, but they move move move (for example).
what an emphasis on development requires is a closer engagement on the part of the listener.
all this requires is exposure to a different type of musical game: how you listen is a function of what you know about--listening can be trained and retrained and retrained. that is part of the beauty of it. it is not a rigid capability, even though it is treated as if it was.

most of the folk i talk to about music are, one way or another, bored bored bored with much of the contemporary scene, particularly in its comercial variant. bands get signed because they sound enough like other bands to be marketed easily but different enough that the are distinguishable one from another.

there are lots of other types of music than rock/pop, many of which have really great players doing very interesting, very demanding stuff. rawk is a tiny domain. if it suffocates, this will be a function of how the form is marketed first, but more a function of the degree to which audiences and musicians alike submit to this, think within these frames, and assume that there really is but one best way to make music.

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Derwood

Neal Pert, IMO, is one of the most overrated drummers in history. I also think Geddy Lee is overrated on bass. Why? Everything is so over the top and "look at me!" that it just turns me off. Sure, Pert has a huge drum kit. But it's so unnecessary. John Bonham was 1000x the drummer Pert is and had 1/10th the drums.

Likewise, I think guitarists like Yngwie Malmsteen, Steve Vai and the like are all flash and no substance. I'm thoroughly unimpressed that you can play 1/64th notes for 3 minutes straight. I'd much rather listen to David gilmour, whose guitar solos are great because he knows when not to play.

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trickyy

yeah, commercial radio and Rolling Stone did kind of kill rock for me...drum solos, guitar solos, etc. gets mind numbing. it didn't even take that long. the rockist personas, albums, events, greatest of all-time all-universe lists became boring and predictable. there is really nothing wrong with most of the actual music, i just got sick of it.

look who is citied in the LA Times article. the same names. i don't care to hear about them anymore. obviously it is different for everyone -- the journalist was around for zeppelin's early days, yet has no problem buying the new neil peart dvd (which qualifies as something "new" to write about). somehow he is not sick of this music at all, even though he has probably heard it far more than i have. he identifies with it.

the status of drum solos is not very important to me. i don't mind hearing someone rocking out, but i don't actively seek it out. i'd rather be surprised; novelty can be much more exciting.

cyrnel

God I loved to listen to Peart. And Copeland. Yes, Rich too (recordings). (and I like In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, baby, probably more for nostalgia than anything.) But new material ended for me in the early 80's with the me-too junk. Even with the good stuff I felt a bit weird watching closely while friends went for beers or other, but I played myself and loved getting into the things that worked. I'm not sure solos are as easy to enjoy - to forgive the rough spots - if you can't thrash about in your head.

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Fly

drum solos here all the time........almost every day.


the solo ain't dead yet.


have faith

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Janey

???

How can you outgrow rush??? I have finally discovered, and found myself developing my ear to "grow into" Rush.

Seemingly a headbanger band at first rush, I have found that their intricacies of rhythm, depth of lyrics and just general individualism has been reason to explore their body of work even further...

roachboy

rush....ugh..what did it for me, ended my efforts to get past geddy lee's voice and the bombastic arrangements, were the lyrics: two songs, "bastille day" and panacea" in particular...in the first, the chorus was just stupid ("o they're marching to bastille day..." huh?) and in the other, it became cleear that they did not know what panacea meant when the lyrics were written.

at about the same time, i decided that everything important in rock lyrics had already been summed up by iggy stooge---"now i wanna/be your dog"

so my judgements are maybe a bit arbitrary.
maybe it was geddy's voice the whole time....

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Janey

well, there's no accounting for taste is there? I love geddy's voice. It's what attracted me to them in the first place...

Derwood

if pompous and overblown music is your thing, well thank jebus that Rush is ther to meet your needs

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kutulu

There are plenty of great drummers out there, they just aren't playing music that many people hear. Death had amazing drummers (Sean Reinert, Gene Holgan, Richard Christy (from the Howard Stern show)), Carcass had Ken Owens, and Dream Theater has Mike Portnoy. Then there's Dave Lombardo who in addition to being an amazing talent, is one of the fastest ever. Danny Herrera (Napalm Death) is pretty damn good too. Talented musicians are out there, you just ahve to look for them

Derwood

modern rock's best include:

dave grohl
steven perkins
scott churilla
brain

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nukeu666

for all ye who havent heard peert's drumming...heres a link http://www.drummerworld.com/Sound/neilpeartsolo.mp3 (9mins)

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saut

Oh man the guy who said he doesn't like Peart just listed Dave Grohl as one of today's top drumming talents.

Derwood

and i stand by it. you don't need 1000 drums and 9 minute solos to be great. Listen to th Queens of the Stone Age record that grohl played on....

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vanblah

It was meant to be tongue in cheek ... though I actually said "geniuses on our instruments."

I am in no doubt that we are proficient on our chosen instruments; however, we keep our solos/leadlines short because we have not achieved the level of mastery required to make them completely interesting for a longer amount of time.

I only wish more musicians would follow suit.

roachboy

sorry if i misunderstood your post---tone is hard to catch sometimes.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

fresnelly

Joke: What do you call someone who hangs out with musicians?

A: A drummer! <i>rimshot</i>

I was a hack drummer in our high school garage band, and had a great time. I have nothing but respect for Neil Peart and the like, but it's hard to keep a solo from becoming self indulgent. Once it turns inward, or drops its arc, it's over.

To my ear, this happens mostly on technique obsessed jazz fusion compositions. That, or Peter Chriss solos.

Now why is it that the rythmic drums of other cultures (Latin, Taiko, African etc...) are the most captivating?

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streak_56

Personally, I listen to music just for the solos. AC DC, Rush, Cream and The Jimi Hendrix Experience have always been some of my favourites. Anything from a drum solo by Neil Peart, Guitar by Angus Young or Bass by John Entwhistle. To me, you're not a good "band" or guitarist/drummer/bassist until you have a decent solo.

From one of my more recent concerts, I saw Def Leppard. Lets just say that for a guy with one arm.... that dude rocked. When I went to my Alice Cooper concert, the drummer had a 15 minute solo which was nothing short of amazing. I love them all and they will never die. Though rock (imo) has lessened in quality lately, one day the great solo will rise again!

Leto

Rush overblown???? Hah!

this boomer/punker has just started to like them.

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pan6467

I've seen a lot of concerts and huge bands in their "primes" and the drummer that impressed me most was Billy Joel's Liberty DeVito.

Not in how he had solos but in that he never showboated, he never went on a run for 15 minutes just playing badda bing chick a boom boom drrrrrrrr bam bam bam drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrbam bam bam boom boom boom.

He just kept the tune going. When he did do a solo it was fast, had a point and the band moved on to the next song.

The few true drummers like Keith Moon that could play faster than machine guns are very rare. The rest, all sound the same, they may have big sets and more toys but in the end they all start sounding the same.

Now, give me a guitar solo and I could listen to it anytime. But drums like bass are for me just parts of the rhythm section and that's it. Guess that's why I max the treble and turn down the bass.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

saut

Hey, you're in State College too. A fellow PSU student?

Grohl is ok on Songs for the Deaf. You might not need 1000 drums and 9 minute solos to be great, but you need to do more than just hit the shit really hard.

maestroxl

My brother just sent me that link, and I was going to post it before I saw you already had. Unbelievable. Looks like he's about 21 now,
here

Kudos for talking up Liberty DeVito. I've seen a few Billy Joel concerts and have most of the albums and have always been impressed with him. A friend in high school from Brooklyn studied with him privately and had great things to say about him.

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Derwood

no, just a resident

i guess for me, rhythm and energy from a drummer trumps technical profficiency. A guy like Stephen Perkins (Jane's Addiction) or Scott Churilla (Reverend Horton Heat) provide both

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Fly

being a drummer.........the way i see it is......if you got rhythm,tempo and most importantly,time..........(plus an imagination).......you don't need to drive fuckin' 90 on the drums.........it all comes down to feel.


if you feel it,then it isn't a solo anymore........it is an entity in itself.

we record our stuff with a drum machine,and it has no feel.........as soon as we livin' it up with an acoustic set of drums.......the tune takes a whole 'nother turn.......it comes down to the feel.

you can have a dude smoke away on the kit really fast.......cool for about 3 minutes......or you can have a guy like say....Carter Beauford(Dave Matthews Band).....do a 7 minute solo......all nice and melodic......and you wanna hear more.


i don't know........to me music comes down to the feel of the song..............if you don't feel it,you just don't feel it.


*heads to the studio to play his drums*

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krwlz

Absolutly! I don't really play anything, but have some background with music (Hehe, trumpet in high school, but I was first chair anyway) but what makes a good song isnt the technical skill it takes to play it. It is definatly the feel.

If the artist, be them a singer, guitarist, bassist, or drummer, can really connect to their listeners, they are doing their job. If they are trying really hard to be good, and you can tell they are trying really really hard... It usually sucks.

pan6467

Everything I've heard and read Liberty truly was the fire and thunder who drove Billy to be better.

The whole band was great, it wasn't just a backup band from Turnstiles to maybe the Bridge, it was a true band that just had Billy as the front man.

David Brown, Richie Cannatta and his replacement Mark Rivera, Russell Javors, Doug Stegmeyer and Liberty..... they all contributed so much and yet have been so underrated for all these years.

I think it is obvious in that until the Stranger, Billy was pretty much a second rate one hit wonder (sales wise not musically), then in came Phil Ramone, who brought in Liberty and Liberty brought in some of the other guys and BOOM.... Billy took off like a sonnabitch.... I'll alwyas argue it was his band not just his music. And Liberty was a HUGE part of it all.

Just hope Billy gave Liberty the true respect he deserved.....

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Derwood

The creepiest drummer to watch is Max Weinberg. It's like watching Stephin Hawking play drums.

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Zyr

I can't let a thread about drummers go by with no mention of Danny Carey (Tool), now there's a drummer.

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gboz

Max Weinberg is living proof that you can play drums without moving your head.

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MrFlux

Mike Portnoy from Dream Theater rocks my socks. Definitely the most talented drummer I've heard.

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FoolThemAll

I don't know where he falls on the scale of technical proficiency, but I'm a fan of Joe Easley from the now-disbanded Dismemberment Plan. Check out "Girl O'Clock" or "The Other Side" for his wilder stuff.

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Tophat665

Twice now I have seen Blue Oyster Cult with their current, 30 years younger than the rest of the band, rhythm section. (And I can't find their names anywhere.) There is a point where one can take a cliche so far into itself that it inverts and becomes fresh again. That's exactly what this drummer does. It is a formula rock drum solo played with such energy and sincerity that, standing there howling as your head approaches its resonating frequency, you realize that there is a reason that this became a formula in the first place. I cannot begin to describe just how extremely hard that rocks.

Now, as for truly creative drum solos, the guy who goes beyond Neil Peart (who, incidentally is only overrated because people lump his lyrics in with his drumming. Drumming good, lyrics, not so much - didactic at best) is Bill Bruford. I have a live video of Crimson on the Three of a Perfect Pair tour, when he does things I can't even describe.

And don't be gettin' down on bassists as merely rhythm. Flea, Les Claypool, Victor Wooten, these guys transition smoothly between base as percussive rhythm, melodic rhythm, and lead and back. The young bassist for B&Ouml;C has the potential to go this way. And let us not forget Steve Harris of iron Maiden.

Just because someone can play blindingly fast does not make them good, but it doesn't hurt.

Dave Grohl, I would say, is solid. Not brilliant.

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Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Fly

i hear ya' brother.........i play my basses as if they were drumsets some times......lotta fun too

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SterlingStudios