Office flirtation

[robot_parade]

So, there's this girl...

She started working with me about 3 months ago; she's in the cubicle next to mine. As we started interacting, we've discovered we have a very nice mutual crush going on. And, frankly, it's great. :-) We talk, flirt, compliment each other, etc. It's a great ego boost for both of us, and just plain fun.

However, we're both married.

We're both clear that neither of us are looking for extramarital...activities. We don't do the 'cyber sex' thing, or any innapropriate touching, etc. and stick to (IMHO) innocuous flirty behavior, complimenting each other's appearence, etc. We went to lunch together once, and plan to again.

We're attracted to each other, and, if we weren't married to other people, I suspect we'd get together.

So, here's my question:

Can this sort of thing work, or are we heading for disaster?

I'm not so much worried about trouble at work...where we work is fairly laid back about 'personal' details - basically, if it becomes a problem, then it's a problem. Otherwise, no one cares. We don't intend to let it become a problem, so....

Can two married people who are attracted to one another work together, enjoy each other's company, flirt, etc. without it becoming a problem?

I *really* like this girl. A lot. (As a friend, but I'm also attracted to her, so...). I'd like to keep talking to her, spending time with her, etc. I don't want to lose what we've got, but I also don't want anyone to get hurt. So there it is. We work pretty closely together, so cutting off all contact isn't an option unless I quit my job.

[ratbastid]

Okay, first of all, you've got to tell your wife all about this. And I mean all about it. And she needs to tell her husband all about it. Don't be melodramatic about it. You have nothing to confess--as you say, you've done nothing wrong--but you need to be in communication about it.

We generally don't have much control over who we're attracted to. But we have all the control in the world over what we do about it.

If you happen to have read many of my posts, you'll know I believe there are many ways this could turn out, but without honesty and open communication, it's headed in a certain predictable direction.

[Inquiring Mind]

I'm curious to see how this thread progresses. I think it depends on what you need in order to know that it's working for you. I suspect it's going nowhere except bad for at least one of you because eventually the tension that your mutual attraction is fuelling will make it's way to the surface in a way you can't control.

[Suave]

I agree with ratbastid. He does not do his name justice.

[Marvelous Marv]

You need to find a way not to be around this woman. You're headed for trouble.

Additionally, open and honest communication doesn't mean you run to your wife and tell her about every woman you find attractive.

If you follow the advice to do that, I hope your advisors plan to help you with the costs of marriage counseling and/or a divorce lawyer.

[Leo]

This is probably a very common experience. I've certainly had a similar experience, but it became very difficult after about 12 months. There was never any 'extramarital activity' as you put it, but it was very difficult to keep things within bounds because of the strength of the attraction. I agree with ratbastid about communication. I would just add that, I think, if you can't tell your spouse about it openly, or you would be embarassed if your spouse saw how you were relating to your co-worker, then you're probably overstepping the mark and may not be being true to yourself or spouse. You and your co-worker might also find it very difficult to maintain a mutually agreeable fence around things, or to wind things back if necessary. I did tell my spouse about my situation after a while and soon after decided to look for another job. It ended OK for me, but I know that my marriage could easily have been shipwrecked if I'd gone much further down the flirtation track. Looking back I probably left the job just in time and am glad to say that my family life has never been better!

[Bill O'Rights]

Ratbastid's got a point.

Here's a guage. If you feel that you cannot tell your wife...then it's not, as you say, "innocuous". I personally know of more than a few marriages broken up over "harmless office flirtation", that while innocent and not going anywhere, wasn't...and did. I'm not saying that that is your situation. I'm just saying that I've seen too many of these exact same situations turn horribly ugly. Then again, I also know of one where it was the best thing that ever could've happened to both of them. It got them out of "bad" marriages, and they are both happier than they've ever been in thier lives. But...that was only one.

Tread lightly. You're standing in the middle of a heavily mined field. Be very careful of your next step.

[odu_sonar_AE]

All I can picture in my mind is a car screeching its brakes as going to go over a cliff.

I think this could lead to trouble. Leave two magnets around each other long enough, and something is bound to happen.

As Bill just said, you should each tell your significant others everything. The last thing your wife needs is to get a call from someone saying they saw you two eating lunch together, and acting in your "innocuous flirty behavior." It won't take much for this to be blown out of proportion, so if you want to still hang with her, you have to be honest now (not when your wife is pissed at you).

[Marvelous Marv]

Maybe I should be more clear.

I didn't say keep it going, and don't tell your wife.

I said end it, and don't tell your wife.

They may forgive, but they never forget. If you'd like it thrown in your face during every argument or disagreement for the next 20 years, go ahead and tell her.

If not, you'd be wise to keep it to yourself. If it's impossible for you to keep it to yourself, then by all means tell her. That's better than hearing it from someone else.

[Daniel_]

Tell her.

If you can't tell her, then maybe you need to take a good long look at your own marriage and figure out why you can't...

[Lasereth]

I don't think telling your wife is a good idea. So...you find a woman attractive and joke around with her. Are we all doomed to "report" to our spouses every single person we find attractive and joke around with for our entire lives? This is ridiculous. If deep down inside you think you might hit it off with her, then stop it now. Pretend she came up to you and began taking your pants off. Would you stop her if you knew no one would find out? If you're not sure if you would stop her, then stop communicating with her, end of story. There's no reason for your wife to know every detail about every woman that you find attractive. If my girlfriend came up to me and said, "There's a guy at work and I'm not gonna have sex with him but I think he's hot and we like to joke around" I would think something is up, even if nothing was up.

-Lasereth

[maleficent]

Forget the whole wife/husband issue for a moment... if this behavior makes your colleagues uncomfortable (there's flirting and there's FLIRTING) there's a little thing called sexual harassment that's a big issue for a lot of companies.

Sister Maureen used to tell us back in 8th grade, that a guilty conscience needs no accuser-- are you asking because you are bragging, or because you really think you are doing something wrong and you want someone to ease your conscience...

[Stare At The Sun]

Originally Posted by Lasereth

I don't think telling your wife is a good idea. So...you find a woman attractive and joke around with her. Are we all doomed to "report" to our spouses every single person we find attractive and joke around with for our entire lives? This is ridiculous. If deep down inside you think you might hit it off with her, then stop it now. Pretend she came up to you and began taking your pants off. Would you stop her if you knew no one would find out? If you're not sure if you would stop her, then stop communicating with her, end of story. There's no reason for your wife to know every detail about every woman that you find attractive. If my girlfriend came up to me and said, "There's a guy at work and I'm not gonna have sex with him but I think he's hot and we like to joke around" I would think something is up, even if nothing was up.

-Lasereth

Damn straight. There is nothing wrong with having a bit of fun at work. Just remember, look..but don't touch.

[SirLance]

So, let's assume for the moment it is innocuous... what happens if you go through a rough patch in your marriage? And you come to work and there she is...

As to whether you should tell your wife, well, that's one you'll have to answer after you figure out what your motives for telling her or not telling her are.

[Blackthorn]

Originally Posted by maleficent

Forget the whole wife/husband issue for a moment... if this behavior makes your colleagues uncomfortable (there's flirting and there's FLIRTING) there's a little thing called sexual harassment that's a big issue for a lot of companies.

Sister Maureen used to tell us back in 8th grade, that a guilty conscience needs no accuser-- are you asking because you are bragging, or because you really think you are doing something wrong and you want someone to ease your conscience...

Bill Clinton used to say -- a man is only as loyal as his options. Or was that Chris Rock? And further "What are you as a man supposed to do if it chases you?" I like Sister Maureen's words of wisdom better. The way you put it it sounds like the only thing stopping you from going further is that you might get caught and suffer the cosequences of acting on impure thoughts. Ratbastid's got it right. How you react and behave is under your control. Since you are married: Caveat Emptor. (I know -- buyer beware is a bit of a stretch but I've always wanted to use that in a sentence and if you stretch really far you can make it work here).

[Sultana]

Originally Posted by Lasereth

I don't think telling your wife is a good idea. So...you find a woman attractive and joke around with her. Are we all doomed to "report" to our spouses every single person we find attractive and joke around with for our entire lives? This is ridiculous. *snip*
There's no reason for your wife to know every detail about every woman that you find attractive. If my girlfriend came up to me and said, "There's a guy at work and I'm not gonna have sex with him but I think he's hot and we like to joke around" I would think something is up, even if nothing was up.

-Lasereth

What would you think of a scenario like, you and your wife go out to dinner whith her and her hubby? Would you feel uncomfortable?
I guess I'm saying, if you all can meet, be friends, hang out, it may help to "de-fuse" a tension there.
I have guy friends who I would probably date if we weren't married (because we are FRIENDS, and get along well), and they're friends with my hubby, and there's no tension because, well, we all know each other and stuff. I guess it's because there's no *pursuit*, just an acknowledgement of attraction and commonality.
The No Pursuit thing is the key, I think.

And for the record, I agree with Laereth here.

[maleficent]

Caveat Flirtor perhaps?

[Blackthorn]

Originally Posted by maleficent

Caveat Flirtor perhaps?

I knew I could count on you! That's perfect.

[analog]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Okay, first of all, you've got to tell your wife all about this. And I mean all about it. And she needs to tell her husband all about it. Don't be melodramatic about it. You have nothing to confess--as you say, you've done nothing wrong--but you need to be in communication about it.

We generally don't have much control over who we're attracted to. But we have all the control in the world over what we do about it.

If you happen to have read many of my posts, you'll know I believe there are many ways this could turn out, but without honesty and open communication, it's headed in a certain predictable direction.

Sometimes ratbastid posts for me under his own name, and then i can come in at a later time and just say, "I agree with what he said, every word of it." It saves me time. lol

But yeah... you've got about a one in a million chance of it continuing in a good, strictly platonic direction. Good luck with that.

BTW, this is the stake that drives the whole thing into the ground, more than anything else about what you said:

We're attracted to each other, and, if we weren't married to other people, I suspect we'd get together.

[shesus]

Two words...Slippery slope.
If the lines are clearly drawn and the spouses know then it should be fine. However, if you feel you can't tell your wife then you have guilt and that is a sign that you are doing something wrong. I have had a few flirtations during my marriage and JJ has always known and we joke about them. If you aren't open then stop because it's going to cause harm in the long run.

[Rodney]

Originally Posted by ohh_shesus

Two words...Slippery slope.
If the lines are clearly drawn and the spouses know then it should be fine. However, if you feel you can't tell your wife then you have guilt and that is a sign that you are doing something wrong. I have had a few flirtations during my marriage and JJ has always known and we joke about them. If you aren't open then stop because it's going to cause harm in the long run.

This is wise advice, but I'm more conservative. Just back off.

You're both attracted to each other and you spend nearly as much time with each other as you do with your respective spice. You share your lives with each other and have many common experiences together. At some point, the part of your brain which is hooked into emotion and basic feelings is going to get ... confused. And hers will too. It might be after a tough day; it might be when one of you is in distress and the other is comforting them. There'll be a hug, and then a mutual impulse to a kiss -- it'll just happen. And then neither of you will know _what_ the hell is going on, what's right or what's wrong in that moment. You might try break it off, but it'll _feel_ right. Even though it isn't.

You might have enough will-power to stop this from happening; but a whole lot don't. If you tell your wife about all this right now, she'll be wary, and rightly so. Chemistry can overrule the best of intentions. And your wife knows about chemistry.

Back off; stay friendly, but don't go to lunch together or do anything together outside of the office. Make her a "work friend" and nothing more.

[777]

I thought this sounded familiar:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...=married+crush

Just joke, smile, work, and be friendly. At the end of the day, go home to your wonderful wife, and your co-worker will go home to her husband.

[Marvelous Marv]

Originally Posted by Lasereth

I don't think telling your wife is a good idea. So...you find a woman attractive and joke around with her. Are we all doomed to "report" to our spouses every single person we find attractive and joke around with for our entire lives? This is ridiculous. If deep down inside you think you might hit it off with her, then stop it now. Pretend she came up to you and began taking your pants off. Would you stop her if you knew no one would find out? If you're not sure if you would stop her, then stop communicating with her, end of story. There's no reason for your wife to know every detail about every woman that you find attractive. If my girlfriend came up to me and said, "There's a guy at work and I'm not gonna have sex with him but I think he's hot and we like to joke around" I would think something is up, even if nothing was up.

-Lasereth

Exactly what I was trying to say. In the early days, my wife would point out attractive girls. 20 years and two kids down the road, she's a little sensitive about not looking like a young girl anymore.

Even if I wouldn't be in the doghouse, since I know it would hurt her, I'm not going to inform her of every young girl that I think is hot.

[soundmotor]

Originally Posted by Lasereth

I don't think telling your wife is a good idea. So...you find a woman attractive and joke around with her. Are we all doomed to "report" to our spouses every single person we find attractive and joke around with for our entire lives? This is ridiculous. If deep down inside you think you might hit it off with her, then stop it now. Pretend she came up to you and began taking your pants off. Would you stop her if you knew no one would find out? If you're not sure if you would stop her, then stop communicating with her, end of story. There's no reason for your wife to know every detail about every woman that you find attractive. If my girlfriend came up to me and said, "There's a guy at work and I'm not gonna have sex with him but I think he's hot and we like to joke around" I would think something is up, even if nothing was up.

-Lasereth

Yeah, what is up with the whole 'tell your wife" bit? Look at the menu, eat your meals at home. It is perfectly normal to be attracted to another of the opposite sex even when married. However, we are not animals. We have something called free will. You can choose to let your dick run away with you or you can choose to remember your vows, until death do you part. Telling your wife you are attracted to another at work is going to make your wife feel like shit and you look like a moron. It also completely blows any trust she may have for you. Believe me, you do not want your wife mistrusting you. Spousal mistrust leads to divorce faster than anything I've ever seen.

[cj2112]

Here's the question you need to ask yourself...If your wife were standing right next to you, would you behave the same way around this woman? If you can answer that honestly, then you know whether or not what your doing is appropriate.

[cellophanedeity]

Hmm... Perhaps it's just me, but I see little wrong with a flirtatious friendship, as long as it is nothing more than a flirtatious friendship.

If you're feeling guilty about it, then speak with your wife. If you are 100% certain that you can hold your vows around this woman, than leave things be.
If the opportunity presents itself, introduce your friend to your wife. It would make it easier for you to keep things "friendly" with the co worker.

[Rubyee]

You do need to tell your wife, because there is nothing fun about finding something like that out third-party. Just say that there is a female friend at work that you find attractive, and that you tell her that. If that really is all there is to it, then it should be no problem.

Aside from being honest with your wife, you need to be honest with yourself. If she was sitting in your cubicle buck naked and spread eagle one day asking you to do her, what would you do? If you are honest with yourself, then you should be able to find out if this is really a problem or not. You also need to find the true reason that you don't want to persue a relationship with this woman- you say it is because you don't want anyone to get hurt. That doesn't say anything about your continuing love for your wife, or your solemn vows. All that says to me is that you wouldn't do it just because you are afraid she would find out and leave you. I could be 100% wrong there, and I am sure that you do love your wife, but make sure you have the right reasons.

Thirdly, you need to be honest with your co-worker. Next time you go to lunch, tell her how you feel about her but that it could never go anywhere because you love your wife very much. I am sure she can appreciate where you are coming from and will respect that.

Finally, it is possible to have a professional relationship with someone that you are attracted to. Just remember that you are an employee first, and a friend second. I know that you don't want to lose your friendship with this girl, but if it is going to cause a problem, isn't a wife better to keep than a new friend? Another question you need to answer for yourself.

[Redlemon]

Hey, robot_parade, are you going to stop back in and let us know what you think of this advice? (For the record, I tell my wife about my flirting at the office. She finds it funny, because she trusts me.)

[robot_parade]

Wow, thanks for all the responses. Sorry about my late reply.

Anyway, I'll try to reply to everyone's points at once...

I don't think being honest with your spouse always involves full disclosure. For instance, I wouldn't dream of pointing out every girl I found attractive to my wife, or every flirtatious interaction. Not that I'm trying to hide anything from her, but what would be the point? Going out of my way to point out each and every girl I'm attracted to would only be hurtful to her. If I did something wrong, then yes, I should 'fess up'. But being attracted to other people and mild flirtation isn't wrong. At least, I don't think it is.

However, it's true that the situation I've got right now is more serious than that, and I spend a fair amount of time talking to this girl, going to lunch, etc. So if I didn't mention anything about this to my wife, I'd be hiding something, and that would clearly be a problem.

Since I wrote the original message, things seem to be moving more towards a 'friend' relationship with The Girl. There's still flirting, there's still attraction, but we both know we're not going anywhere 'serious' with it, and I think we're both more interested in being friends. We still definately have the mutual crush going on, but we're even more clear with each other that it isn't going to go beyond that.

As far as my wife goes, she has met the girl, and we've teased each other back and forth about me flirting with her, etc. The Girl and I went to lunch again this afternoon, and I mentioned it to my wife. I think she was a little jealous, but seems to be 'ok' with it. She teased me about having a coupon to the restaurant that The Girl and I went to for the next time The Girl and I go on 'a date' (her word, not mine!). She also asked if I 'behaved myself' (which I did!). So, I think I'm being fairly open with my wife about this - I haven't sat her down and said 'I have a crush on this girl.', because I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't deal with that well; I'm afraid she'd interpret it as "I want her and not you." :-( Which isn't the case.

Having both would be interesting, though. ;-) But that hardly ever happens outside of porn, right? :-)

What would I do in a hypothetical situation where The Girl threw herself at me, and there was no way we could ever, ever be caught? I'd like to say I'd resist the temptation, but I know that *saying* I'd resist temptation is completely different from actually resisting it. Best to not get in a situation like that in the first place. ie, don't do something stupid like winding up alone together in a private place, etc.

A couple of people asked if I would act the same way if my wife were standing over me. Of course I wouldn't. It would be disrespectful, if nothing else. But I haven't done anything I would be mad at my wife for doing. I think the key problem is uncertainty - my wife can't know everything that goes on when I'm not with her, and she can't know what's going on in my head. So with that uncertainty, there's room for doubt - she trusts me, but I think she's still worried. So the best I can do is be open and honest, and remember where the boundries are.


I like this girl, and I'm attracted to her, and I'm very flattered that she's attracted to me back. But at the end of the day, I love my wife, and don't want to cheat on her.

So, for now, I'm going to work on 'behaving myself' and making sure I keep open and honest communication about it with my wife. And, having fun (but not too much) with my crush. And, I hope, getting a really good friend out of the bargain.

I'll keep you guys posted with any interesting tidbits.

And, if it all does end in tears, you are all invited to the divorce proceedings to give me a well-deserved kick in the ass. :-)

maleficent: 'caveat flirtor' - that's *awesome*! :-)

[Redlemon]

Sounds pretty good, robot_parade. (BTW, are you a fan of They Might Be Giants, or is there some other reason for your username?) I think you are being sufficently open with your wife about what is going on, and that's enough to work as a seat belt for you. My only concern is...

Originally Posted by robot_parade

However, it's true that the situation I've got right now is more serious than that, and I spend a fair amount of time talking to this girl, going to lunch, etc.

...just be sure that you aren't annoying your coworkers.

[robot_parade]

Redlemon - yep, it's from TMBG. It's not my usual nick, because I wanted to feel freer to discuss whatever the heck I wanted to here, without being too paranoid about it getting associated back to the real 'me'.

[cj2112]

Originally Posted by robot_parade

Redlemon - yep, it's from TMBG. It's not my usual nick, because I wanted to feel freer to discuss whatever the heck I wanted to here, without being too paranoid about it getting associated back to the real 'me'.

you do realize that you are asking to be banned for having multiple accounts, right? I would suggest that you pm a mod or admin and ask them to remove all but one of your user names, there is a thread about this somewhere....I believe it might even be a sticky
*edit---The thread is here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...tiple+accounts

[Rubyee]

Let's hear it for TMBG!

Can I get a w00t w00t?

I love their children DVD from Disney. Great stuff.

My apologies for the unnecessary post.

I think you handled the situation quite nicely.

[robot_parade]

cj2112: No, no - I mean, it's not the account name I use in most places - ie, email address, other boards, usernames in various places, etc. I only have one tfproject account.

Please don't ban me! I would be very sad! ;-)

Rubyee: w00t w00t!

I've loved their stuff since college, and now that I have kids, they love their kid's albums.

Is it wrong if I threadjack my own thread??

Oh, and thinking of the kids makes me think - If I ever need a last-resort reason to stay faithful to my wife, I just need to remember those two magic words: "child support!" ;-)

[Rubyee]

Esp. if you live in California. I have done enough of their payrolls to know that THEY WILL GET YOU!

[Redlemon]

Originally Posted by robot_parade

cj2112: No, no - I mean, it's not the account name I use in most places - ie, email address, other boards, usernames in various places, etc. I only have one tfproject account.

I know exactly what you mean. This is the only place that I am Redlemon. (I figured you must have kids as well; I think the best song on that album is "Where do they make balloons?")

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by robot_parade

As far as my wife goes, she has met the girl, and we've teased each other back and forth about me flirting with her, etc. ...

Good for you. This is exactly how it should be--nothing substiantial hidden, your wife is in the know, and you're not "headed anywhere" with this girl.

Originally Posted by robot_parade

Having both would be interesting, though. ;-) But that hardly ever happens outside of porn, right? :-)

I don't know about that :whistles innocently:

Originally Posted by robot_parade

I like this girl, and I'm attracted to her, and I'm very flattered that she's attracted to me back. But at the end of the day, I love my wife, and don't want to cheat on her.

So, for now, I'm going to work on 'behaving myself' and making sure I keep open and honest communication about it with my wife. And, having fun (but not too much) with my crush. And, I hope, getting a really good friend out of the bargain.

As long as the order of importance is the order you mentioned those goals, then great.

[amonkie]

Just from a girl perspective, you commented on your wife's response as teasing you about a dates, etc. For me personally, when I feel hurt and I feel the lines of communications are not open, my first instinct used to be to put on a happy face and pretend everything is ok and joke to try and convince myself I was ok with a situation.

It wouldn't hurt to check in with your wife regularly and make sure the communication lines are Open - The last thing you want is built up resentment because you guys are not consistently on the same page and her feelings have changed.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by cj2112

Here's the question you need to ask yourself...If your wife were standing right next to you, would you behave the same way around this woman? If you can answer that honestly, then you know whether or not what your doing is appropriate.

well stated.

and that's why i do what i do when i'm alone and we're together. my behavior isn't dependant on if she's present or not.

thus, i do flirt with other women, my wife knows it and expects it. even when we are out with other couples i may flirt with the other people male and female (quadro's got a cute tush, I can see why Jess goes on and on about it)

but my rule is that I don't shit where I eat. I don't fish off the company pier. and whatever other ways you can say it...

[shesus]

Originally Posted by amonkie

Just from a girl perspective, you commented on your wife's response as teasing you about a dates, etc. For me personally, when I feel hurt and I feel the lines of communications are not open, my first instinct used to be to put on a happy face and pretend everything is ok and joke to try and convince myself I was ok with a situation.

It wouldn't hurt to check in with your wife regularly and make sure the communication lines are Open - The last thing you want is built up resentment because you guys are not consistently on the same page and her feelings have changed.

Monkie, well put. I agree that I would be a little jealous if JJ spent a lot of time eating lunch with another woman. It wouldn't bother me too much, but resentment is easy to build and I'm sure she has an indication that you have a crush on this woman even though you've never mentioned it. Women are very intuitive and if you are close she probably has an inkling. But, I'm not in your situation nor do I know your wife. If you both are comfortable about it, I guess there shouldn't be a problem. However, I do recommend keeping the lines of communication open and understand that your wife could be hiding her real feelings.