abaya

Jumping off from comments by Ambient1 in the thread on "Religion lost as you grew up?"...

If you are more "spiritual" than religious: what brought you to this decision? Does being this way add to the quality of your life, or is it more of a mental "hanging-on" to a non-religious way of believing in God? If you are spiritual, why did you decide to not be an atheist? If you are an atheist, can you consider yourself to be spiritual?

I've had discussions w/my atheist bf, that regardless of religion, a healthy spirituality really does add to one's quality of life, even if one never sets foot in a church or other organized worship (it does for me). But that's my point of view, and I'm trying to sort out how biased it may be.

It's a bit like sex... I mean sure, people have very productive lives without sex, and in some ways they never know what they're missing... but all the same, I really wish everyone could experience sex, or at least experiment a bit and get comfortable with it and themselves before giving up on it completely. I don't put a lot of stock in people swearing off sex without at least having gave it a try... and I feel the same about atheism, I guess?

What do you all think?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ShaniFaye

I dont believe in "religion" I've said it many times before in many places. "Religion" is MANS way of controlling. MAN has taken things written in the past and put them together in different forms and called it the BIBLE. The bible has been reinterpreted so many ways that its really hard to keep up with it. Heck I think even catholics have books in theirs that protestants dont..then there are the "lost books of the bible"

I chose to believe in the theory of god, I choose to believe in talking to god...some people call that prayer and thats usually the word I use too, but to me its still conversation with someone who may not speak in a way I can hear, but a lot of times he responds in ways I can see.

I do not believe in going to a building once a week and sitting with a bunch of hypocrits...Im not at all saying that EVERYONE who goes to church is that way...but a good majority of people I have met in my life are. I can talk to god, I can believe in god, I can even minister to those who ask for it (I never talk about it unless asked) all from WHEREVER I am, and whenever I choose.

thats my spirituality.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

tecoyah

My understanding of the unseen adds to my life in more ways than I am aware of......everyday.

And I really like the sex analogy....

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

ColonelSpecial

Spirituality adds to my life by making me constantly aware of how amazing life can be. When I am down or frustrated, talking with God eases me out of that. The knowledge that there is a God helps calm my sometimes turbulant spirit. My spirituality manifests itself alone, by myself but also in church with the fellowship of others. I didn't go to an actual church building for two years and didn't figure I was missing anything until I started going again and realized I missed the fellowship, the knowledge that we are all in this life together, the good and the bad. Above and beyond all is my faith and spirituality in God. That will be there whether I go to a church building or not.

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Sara

Elphaba

The term "religion" suggests to me an organization that has created for itself whatever "god" rules they have chosen to follow. I have no objection to those organizations unless they intend harm in some way (read Jim Jones). My chosen beliefs do not fit neatly into any organized religion that I am aware of, so I am more comfortable speaking of my individual spirituality, rather than stating I am a Catholic, Baptist, or Jewish.

I once thought myself an agnostic, perhaps even an atheist, simply because I couldn't find common ground with a specific religion. I find that position to be nonsense now. I have chosen a very personal relationship with a superior being that I live by now. I would be hard-pressed to list the god-rules of my belief system.

braindamage351

But isn't that just as hypocritical? You claim to deny their controlling beliefs, and yet you latch on to the God that they created. I've believed in religion before and gotten the uplifting effect, but if I really think about it exists only in my head.

Think about how ridiculous the idea is. God gives everyone the ability to freely act and live their own lives, and then turns around and personally controls everything to fulfils the petty wishes of everybody in the world? Trust me, he doesn't respond. You only see things as being responses because you're looking for them.

Also, religion is NOT man's way of controlling. It starts as something that people really believe in. Only when it becomes an official institution do specific priests and leaders abuse it. They may control through it, but that isn't how it started. Religion and spirituality are really man's way of finding a meaning and humanizing the world.


As for my own beliefs, I am an atheist in practice, but an agnostic in belief. Because there is absolutely no way of knowing whether or not religions are true, or if so which one is true, I don't choose. It's a completely arbitrary decision, and you have no reason to favor any of the options. I am an atheist in practice because even if there is a higher spiritual existence and/or set of morals, there is no way to know which one is right. And so there is no way to live in accordance with them. So why waste time following a bunch of random rules that you have no reason to believe? Anyone who eschews religion because it's hypocritical, and then goes out and bases his beliefs on that religion's rules is just a bigger hypocrite.

ShaniFaye

braindamage351 you are entitled to your opinion and thats all I will say about your comments

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Seeker

I've read the bible, to me it has many common sense approaches to living. I can't bring myself to 'commit' to an organised group though. I find I resonate with the 'teachings', but I have problems with people trying to direct them for others.

I have had thoughts and experiences where I can't seem to deny that there is 'something' under the veil of daily living. I also find it funny that when I learn a 'better' way of understanding or interacting, I can no longer ignore the 'higher road'. So in that regard I find it difficult to ignore the spiritual path and find it frustrating at times when that path or direction is seemingly lost to so many others.

I'm in a place where although I call myself 'spiritual' I have not found a common ground with people in society... for the organised religions will not have me because I won't commit to them, and society in general doesn't take my views into account and I can't relate to them, so I feel very isolated. That being said, I find my 'spiritual' views enrich my life, I find beauty and understanding in people and things and sometimes I am amazed at how circumstances and events unfold. It's like occasionally there is some sort of magic in the world.

It would be much easier if I could 'drop' my thoughts, but I cannot.. I can't seem to ignore my 'spiritual' side and live with the mentality of those around me. It's not that I think I'm better or anything.. It's more like an undefinable pull or perhaps my brain chemicals are out of whack or something.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

braindamage351

The problem with atheist arguments is that they always come out as malicious unless you put a ridiculous amount of care into being delicate...

abaya

Hey all, keep posting, this is a good start to the discussion...

Spiritual decisions (for, against, or otherwise) are a highly personal thing... I think it's really important in this kind of discussion to not step on anyone's toes, so people feel okay about posting. I really wanna hear what everyone's experiences have been, and it helps me put my own experience in perspective. So keep a good thing going!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Jesus Pimp

I find spirituality artificial. Tell yourself or listen to someone repeat something enough times and you'll start believing it(self fullfilling prophecy). I'm more of philosophical person. I've studied many different religions and schools of thought but do not subscribe soley to any of them, but take the good things from those and applied them to my life.

__________________
Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

zen_tom

I'm not sure what spirituality means - I sometimes get a feeling when I'm in the presence of something beautiful, or looking up at the night sky, or just at random times of the day. Some people might describe it as God's spirit, Jesus, or being reborn, or the force of some communual mind or something. All I know is I just get a feeling (it feels a little like being in love) that I treasure. I think it's important, and I think many people miss out by disregarding that sense of wonder. If that's spirituality, then I'm all for it.

For that matter, I'm all for Church as well. A group of people getting together to try and attempt to experience that feeling communually is a good thing. It makes me sad when I'm alone and I can't share that feeling with someone else. Sure people are more easily swayed in their opinions, but no more than on TV commercials, the only difference is that they're more likely to be swayed towards local trash drives, or soup kitchen voulenteering etc - The only time when I have a problem is when people are asked to express bigotry or hated of others - which happens on TV just as much.

abaya

Heh, well braindamage, I think ANY argument can come out sounding malicious (atheist, Christian, or Buddhist, etc) unless one puts some care into being considerate.

This is about what it boils down to for me, zen_tom. I think spirituality is pretty hard to define... but like being in love, you know it when you experience it. Now, people might disagree with me, which is fine, but I think life isn't worth much without a sense of wonder... for me, the skies especially make me stand in awe... sunset, sunrise, stars, Northern Lights, massive thunderstorm... it is all so much greater than me, and makes me realize how much goes on without me.

Or being in a forest, or near a stream, or even just in the presence of a loving person... all of these things give me a sense of wonder, and for that I am grateful. For me, if I wasn't semi-spiritual, I would just walk down the street and miss out on everything that is breathing, growing, being around me... and on the days that I do just ignore it all, I find myself getting so caught up in my own head, there's no room to wonder and be grateful for life.

On the other hand, when I do take time to look at flowers, see the trees, smile at a squirrel (even if I am very sad), it makes me feel just a tiny bit better... it is "spiritual" to me, to see something greater than the human self. Is that a form of "comfort," then, in the same way that religion offers comfort? I don't know.

Edit: also interesting, zen_tom, about the church thing... I hadn't thought of it that way, since I tend to be cynical about churches (after having attended them for a long time). But that sense of community... of people who agree to constantly be in wonder... I do miss it, very much, even if I don't miss the doctrine and such. I miss people standing in wonder together, no matter what banner they walk under (or none at all)... and I miss standing among them and sharing that appreciation, that... "worship," if I may use a loaded word? (by this I do not imply a god or even a being, but at least that there is something greater than ourselves to be shared in a communal wonder, and that if we do not pay attention to it we risk denying/neglecting a crucial part of our spirit).

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

cellophanedeity

I've never been compelled toward a religion, or even a god, but I've always thought of myself as spiritual.

As far as my beliefs on God go, I don't know or care if there is a God. I have no control over it, I cannot effect it, and I personally am unable to communicate in any method with it, so I figure that even if there is a god of some form, it does not matter to me.

So obviously, my spirituality is different from many of the other people who respond here. I am more Self-Spirited than God based. My spirituality is pursuit of Eudaimonia, which I can't even provide a perfect definition of. I find quite a bit of my spirituality has to do with aesthetics, and the interaction between my physicalness and mentalness.

I have no doubt that spirituality adds to ones life, but I do not in any way believe that theism and spirituality are inseperable.


(oh, and the sex analogy is awesome)


Edit: And I feel the same as Abaya describes in her last post. I think all of the things she describes are parts of spirituality.

Elphaba

So how does this not make you a spiritual person? I agree the term is brandished about in a cavalier way, very newly cool I suspect. How would you describe yourself in relation to a supreme being?

Ambient1

(Continued from the other thread)

Without spirituality, there was a huge gap in my life. It was almost like trying to deny a physical sensation of a hole in my chest; an emptyness.

While I was flirting with atheism, I ended up pretty depressed. There was no "reason" for living other than purely biological factors. The meaning of life came down to simple reproduction and propagation of the species.

And honestly, I can not, nor is there any way, for me to prove that there is not a god. There has to be more - I needed to find reason.

My initial problems were solely with religion. I saw how some people acted, how they would attend church and believe that that was enough. Hypocrites. I also understood the power that the church has held in the past, and all the damage they truly have dealt to mankind.

Sure, there have been some positive things that have come from religion, but in my eye, it is not worth the wars, persecution and suffering that they have propagated.

Spirituality is faith rendered pure; refined without the trappings of some clergy. It is what you truly believe deep down in you heart. It is a religion of one.

It comes down to what you truly believe. I'm not the person you should be asking as to whether Christianity is right for you; only you can answer that. Learn all you can, read, examine, critique... then ask yourself if you identify with the message, if you believe it, and most importantly, if you can have faith in it.

Personally, I'd recommend learning more about the different religions out there. Take pieces that you like, and make them your own.

Finally:

I feel that your own spirituality is as unique as you are - and is private and personal. If you miss the sense of community, I would recommend joining a volunteer group. Working together as a team, helping others, brings a much greater sense of community.

abaya

This is precisely my issue... a hole in my chest, a massive sense of reductionism, like saying that love is just a bunch of neurons firing off in a particular pattern in one's brain... it just goes against my grain. And I am the type to thoroughly examine one's grain for social inculcation, maladaptive tendencies, psychological delusion... and yet I still cannot shake off this empty sensation.

Well this is basically what I have done... I did learn a great deal, I read tons, examined, critiqued to the point where I could not intellectually identify or believe anymore. I feel I did not lose faith, per se, but did lose my faith in the system as it exists. And I have learned about a couple of other systems/ideologies (Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, etc)... though I still have many to tackle, of course.

Yes, above all I feel that my "spirituality" (despite being a new and sexy word/idea, I think it's been around and recycled for as long as humans have had the capacity for higher thought) is very private, and that I can't expect anyone to understand it. However, I recognize a spiritual person when I see one... I do share something with them, though I can't explain it. As for volunteering, I've thought of this, and my bf has also recommended it. TFP even helps with community. But I have yet to make time to try it again, after many years not contributing to the community.

I suppose a sense of secular humanism has replaced the old relationship I had with religion... and I do find some fulfillment in that approach. But it still leaves something to be desired... because secular humanism still doesn't involve a sense of wonder at the world as it is. I should combine environmentalism with humanism, maybe... sigh.

It's been 5 years since I started doubting it all (after 6 years of believing it all), and I still haven't come up with a meaningful-enough substitute. Is that a self-fulfilling prophecy? Then again I am not demanding a substitute... I want to find, to know, something real. And if that "realness" is in the gray area, in the comfort gained from sitting with paradox and not trying to resolve everything unknown... then I do feel I am still a spiritual seeker, and that I am not satisfied with easy answers, and that this very seeking does make my life better. And it still has very little, if anything, to do with religion.

So can seeking be a spirituality?

/looks around for Seeker...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

cellophanedeity

they are one in the same.

abaya

I believe so, cello. But how does one define seeking? If someone is just plain content with their life, without needing to question everything (e.g. the way I do, which almost drives me insane at times), then what right do I have to say that they are living in a unfulfilled way? Perhaps it is better to live in the present, without seeking anything beyond the moment at hand? Is that not a spirituality, too? Then again, I think that true living-in-the-moment takes serious awareness, discipline, and even seeking. It is an appreciation for all the little things that exist around oneself. Hence, Zen. I see this as adding volumes to one's life, and as being very spiritual.

Who was it that said "The unexamined life is not worth living." (Aristotle?)... this is how I feel, and yet there are so many times that I want to stop examining and just take things for granted. Yet I can't, anymore. Everything is up for grabs, it seems... makes for some very unstable times.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

NotMVH

I do not need spiritualy but I do need to live consciously.

This is my life and this is my everything. It is very concerning when I know that I have only one life to live. I can't live how I desire at this time, I am working on it. I have the power to build a life for myself where I feel content and satisified. The difficulty is having the strength and courage to discover what that means to me. I don't currently know, I have some ideas and I am working towards those ambitions.

I see confining myself to someone elses religion or spirituality as having accepted their definition of life. They have found for me boundries where I can exist easliy and without conscious thought, comfortably living. I find it empowering to use my strength to make decisions, I may seek guidance and advice but I need to take action independatly in my own intrest.

We all live with our own subjective existance. You can honestly express to me how you feel but what your spirituality provides you doesn't exist. I can not interpret or construct spirituality using any of my five senses. It doesn't take away from how you feel or your experience but I am not missing or incomplete from that which is ficticious to me.

NotMVH

Although I understand the perspective of living in the moment but I much prefer to think of life as everyday. I find people form a physicological disconnect between what they define as day to day living and their lives. They put everything they want, feel and desire and disconnect it from doing the dishes or the commute to work or a shower in the morning. I have faith that for me to reach my ambitions I will need to operate as a whole (gestalt theory) I need to take action to reach the goals I have choosen for myself and although they can feel unrelated every facet of my life to the most mundane is part of my existance as a whole and an intergral part from creating the life I want to live.

Jesus Pimp

I don't worship gods. If there were a supreme being I would be a mere speck of dust.

__________________
Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

tecoyah

Will I do......heh

Indeed in many respects it IS the search for answers that brings home the sense of wonder and deep joy we call spirituality. At least it does so for myself. If the presence of "God" is to be found within the mind....then it would seem a logical step to be expanding the mind through open, and focused thinking. In this way each can approach the question of "That which Is" in a way that fits who they are, and better the chances of expanding spiritual knowledge.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Seeker

Looks like I've been sprung! OK, it's all out in the open now..
*shuffles foot in a sweeping motion in front of her, head bowed..

Yep, this is how I approach every minute of my life these days. I will never know what is to become of us once we pass, I doubt I'll ever have any solid answers to any or all forms of 'spiritual' speculation. I do, however, find that there are wonders and beauty everywhere and in everyone. When I can get beyond my frustrations of general existance, I can see amazing things everywhere. This is the only thing that keeps me going. I live a fairly solitary life, and as I stated above, this is for reasons beyond my vision at present.

Yes, I believe seeking is spiritual..

And I agree with tecoyah's example.. more eloquent than my ramblings...

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

cellophanedeity

It seems you have a different idea of spirituality than I do. I don't necissarily believe in a supreme being, and yet I consider myself to be spiritual.

The word spirit doesn't only regard gods. To me, spirit is what it is that makes one a person. It's the ability to appreciate beauty, and to laugh and weep and love and all of those wonderful and terrible human things. I guess the spirit is no different than the mind, really.

Well, there are different things one can seek for are there not? I don't think that people can stop seeking. It's one of the things about us that is both wonderful and tragic. Some people search continually for wealth, some for fame, some for love... and these are not necissarily seperate searches of course. It seems that the spiritual person is seeking a non-physical betterment, and once they find something they cannot question, I suppose they continue to live contentedly and seek to make others happier?

Socrates said "The unexamined life is not worth living," and I believe this whole heartedly. I also tend to believe that comfort and spirituality and philosophy don't necissarily lead to contentment.

Seeker

I don't think there is much that I have found that I cannot question.. actually I drive myself batty by questioning everything all the time.

I totally agree with the last statement.. for now anyway

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

abaya

Yep, me too. Hence this thread... I just wonder sometimes if being a spiritual "seeker" (and I agree w/cello, this has little to do with a capital-G god, or deity of any kind... moreso with just awareness of beauty, love, etc) is good for people or not. For folks like me, who have a very hard time being content with anything comfortable or easy, seeking is my only respite. But it also frustrates my friends who would rather just relax and take the world as it is... does that mean they take it for granted, if they are not seeking? And is ALL searching a form of spirituality? I don't know, I think there are some fine lines...

EDIT: If you are reading this post and feel that you are a spiritual atheist, please post... I'd like to hear your input.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

zen_tom

abaya, if only there were more people around like you! These are exactly the thoughts that have gone through my head for the last 6 years or so. I see these happy people, content and living their lives, and wonder, "Have I got it so wrong?"

In answer, I've met maybe 2 or 3 people in my life who, like you have been true Seekers, and found that they are the most joyous, beautiful people I've ever known.

Are there really so few?

kramus

I was thinking that a lot of posters in this thread are rather active and dedicated in exercising their spiritual concerns.

Personally I am not an active seeker. The questions that I sense tend to present themselves rather than be the product of a quest or directed inquiry. The answers are not demanding so much as allowing the background of That Which Is to be more approachable/appreciable to me.

There has never been an interest in formalized church going, except as an interesting place to hear stories and see culture in action. I have been told a time or two that I was one of the more spiritual and truly religeous people around, which is a bit odd to me what with not really feeling a need to involve myself in dialogue with the believers and the religeous folk.

But I am certain sure that life lived (whether typified by plants, bacteria or us human types) is incredibly important to the universe as a whole, and that the life lived is also such a small and focussed part of that whole. So I am actually excited about what I will return to when physically dead. And of course I am terrified of the pain and uncertainty that will accompany the release of life from my physical body.

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Seeker

I see spiritual seeking as a means to come to terms with our existance and environment. There seems to me to be different ways people cope with existance.

There are many who seek to fulfill their lives with the materialistic, they struggle for money, recognition, a woman/man, they are as I see it sometimes somewhat distracted with all the glittering promises the materialistic world promises it can give them.

There are also those who struggle with personal justification, they get caught up in drama's like the daily soaps, always trying to prove themselves right, better, stronger than others around them. They have personality types that feed of each other and perpetuate this drama. They also maintain circumstances that justify their behaviour and struggle, they literally have no need to 'think deeper'.. they are busy.

Then there are those who are open to religion and belief, however they accept it somewhat blindly.. they are led and are happy to be led. Others have a stronger faith and have given religion more critical thought and are somewhat justified in thier conviction and purpose.

Then there is me (and others I assume). Seeing enough of worldly life and worldly solutions not being quite enough, and that there will be no end to the problems in this world. This is somewhat reflective of my thread in Philosophy.. I am not convinced by anything for certain, and I don't think I'll ever have the proof that I would hope to find (cause it would really be nice to have a rest!). The only certainty that I have is the poem/statement from that thread re: life being an experience. This, I believe, encompases my whole 'spiritual' view. I seek as an athiest, agnostic and theist(?).

I can so totally relate to your questions abaya, and with zen_tom. I have difficulty trying to describe this.

People who do not appear to seek greater meaning are only perceived as shallow by those who seek and question, but I cannot say that they are wrong or complacent. Ultimately, ignorance is bliss for those that don't question, and sometimes that ignorance is envied for those that do question.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.