abaya

My bf and I were talking about a friend who's having a civil marriage soon. (They're doing it that way b/c of visa issues, and not having time to do a traditional wedding until they get back to her home country.)

My bf, a self-professed agnostic-atheist, says that he would only want a civil marriage because it would be hypocritical for him to get married with a religious figure officiating. He said he would only do it in a courthouse.

Now, I have not been religious for the last five years, though I did go through a religious phase in my life, and my parents are still that way. However, I still consider myself to be a spiritual seeker, and I do not try to exclude all spiritual practices from my life.

While wedding vows do not have to be "before God," I do see a wedding as being much more than a legal thing. To me it is a spiritual union, with two people/souls/spirits joining into one while maintaining their distinctiveness. It is also something that involves the approval of a third party, which to me doesn't have to be legal, but should involve and respect the families of both individuals (assuming the family members are not complete psychos).

I do not necessarily advocate having a religious figure officiating, either, but I am looking for a compromise here. I know there have been weddings that took place outside a courthouse, outside a church, with a neutral "justice of the peace" or something. Or would a unitarian pastor be non-sectarian enough to do the job (are they even considered a "religion?")

For the sake of conversation (my bf and I still have lots to discuss on the issue), what are your experiences with this?

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ShaniFaye

Although Dave and I do believe in god, and we plan on Him being mentioned during the ceremony, we chose to have our best friend marry us. It was important to us that the officiant be someone that had been around for our entire relationship.

The Universal Life Church ordains people online to perform weddings (and even the bridal mags recommend this as an alternative). In georgia its completely legal (we've already double checked with the county courthouse) and its a great alternative for people who dont want a religious figurehead. And for the record, our officiant is an Agnostic

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tecoyah

My Harpie and I were Married in her Parents woods.....By my Mother.
We had a total of fifteen guests and created our own vows. My first Marriage was traditional church because my first wife wanted such....and it really made little difference to me. I feel the second ceremony meant far more to us both because it was "Real". It was for Us not for the guests/Parents/food.

I think as long as you are true to yourselves in the ceremony....it really wont matter where it takes place, or who says the words everyone else hears. It is the words you say to each other that will be remembered, and hold weight.

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guthmund

I was ordained by the Universal Life Church about 5 years ago to officiate at a close friend's wedding. They're, like, legal and everything. Well, as far as I know....

I didn't have all that much to add to that other than to say it was interesting that you brought this up. It seems the vast majority of folks around here (where I live, not the TFP) prefer to have a religous figure preside over the ceremony even if the bride and groom aren't particularly religious, which I assume isn't the case in other parts of the world.

Personally, when I get married (If I get married ), I don't believe it will be in a church. I mean, if she wanted ceremony, I'd be happy to oblige, but, for me, the smaller the better. In fact, a simple civil service with the Justice of the Peace is just fine by me. What can I say, I'm a romantic.

As far as spirituality goes...Well, I require neither affirmation nor validation of my spiritual union from some third party huckster.

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ngdawg

My husband's family is religious-Protestant- and my mother is Jewish, father, Recovering Catholic and I am what I like to refer to as a 'spiritual atheist'. With all that in mind, when it came time to make the decision to marry, I sought out judges or mayors but none would do a weekend wedding. We used the minister from his church, but had a traditonal Jewish giving of the bride and did it in a hotel banquet room. It did NOT go smoothly. Completely forgetting that I requested NO religious reference, he began with "In Jesus' name we pray". My mother dug her nails into my arm and I wanted to kick him in the shins.
So much for compromise.....

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kramus

I got married to a good catholic girl in a big church with a couple of hundred people as witnesses/sharers/guests. I would have been happy with a civil ceremony in a private home but ... you go with what's most important to the both of you and seeing as I really had no strong feelings about it I went with what was important to her. And I agreed that our children would be raised catholic because the priest made it part of his conditions - which was ok too because I had my innings at home in regards to keeping their minds open. So if your bf is adamant and you are more open then go with what he insists on. If he is merely making a point see if he is willing to let some of what is important to you and your family be included in what is to be a union of two disparate people bringing together differences to create something new together. The whole ceremony is a public statement and affirmation of what will probably exist anyway and to have it follow traditional trappings of affirmation does not taint or vitiate his ethical principals.

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Sage

Martel and I decided that our wedding would reflect us, and not be done to please anyone else. Since we believed that we were already married in spirit, before god, and pleged to each other already, we eventually decided to go to the courthouse one rainy thursday afternoon to get married. It took five minutes, we went to TGIF's after. A marriage does not happen because of a wedding, nor does a wedding define a marriage. Do what makes you both happy, and what reflects your love in the best way

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hrandani

I love that. Every single detail is just perfect. I hope mine is like that : D

abaya

Great diversity of responses... thanks, all.

Two things I should add:

1) This is all hypothetical, as we're not engaged and not planning to get married anytime soon. However the topic came up in discussion, so that's why I'm posting it now.

2) If I want to respect and include family members and friends, that does not mean that I am doing things to "please" them rather than myself. For me, family is really important. Anthropologically, Westerners are pretty much the only people on earth to insist on marriage being between two individuals; cross-culturally, this is a pretty selfish view of things, since marriage brings together two family groups.

I like the idea of a wedding being a cultural bridge, especially because I am the only native-born American citizen in my family... I'm half-Thai and half-Icelandic, so I've never had the chance to have a family get-together with both sides to celebrate anything, and this has always been a desire of mine for when I get married. And considering ktspktsp is Lebanese, our wedding would bring together people from at least four different countries for a big ol' party, which would certainly never happen again in our lifetimes.

So regardless of who officiates (I like the idea of having a friend do it, the Universalist approach--I really don't think I want a religious leader of any kind), I do not want to be married in a courthouse. I would also like to know how people of different beliefs (and I don't mean different religions, since atheism is not technically a religion but an ideology) have done this sort of thing, and if you have tried to have a "spiritual" but non-religious wedding.

Btw, ng I'm glad you claim the title of a spiritual atheist. I hadn't heard that before, but I like it... what does it mean for you, though?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Meditrina

When my husband and I got married, he was Catholic and I was Jewish. We decided, out of respect for the 2 families coming together, to have a non-religious ceremony at the hall where the reception was. I found a Rabbi who specialized in interfaith marriages and went to discuss it with him. We decided to choose 1 tradition from each side, in order to let our families know they were being included in our special day. The ceremony went very well and everyone was happy, including me and my husband. It was spiritual but not specific to either religion.

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martinguerre

i used to be unitarian universalist...that might be an option to explore in terms of finding an officiant. by confession, they believe in respecting all faiths and spiritualities, and finding meaning through community and self-discovery. they tend to have better trained clergy (especially in major metro areas) than other ecumenical/interfaith groups.

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ktspktsp

For the record, I don't have to get married at a courthouse, but what I mean to say was that I don't want to be married by a religious figure. I thought that the legal agreement of marriage had to be signed there (if it's outside a church), but I guess it can be done outside of it?

And certainly, even marriage in a courthouse doesn't mean that there would be no get-together celebration for families and friends.

Thanks for the useful input everybody!

Gilda

Grace is a loose Shintoist, and I'm a lapsed Catholic, siritual agnostic. We're part of a Universalist/Unitarian congregation, which works well for us because neither of us is an active practitioner of the faith we were raised in. We were married in the church, which is to say, in the building, not in the Church, as in in the faith. We wrote our own vows, the ceremony was based on the traditional Christian ceremony but without the religious content. Also of note, it was purely a spiritual ceremony, not a legal one.

thingstodo

Right on.

So many marriages begin under the auspices of a religious ceremony and then fall apart. Makes me think the deal between the two people getting married is the most important concept here. And if you are spiritual but not religious I don't see how having a religious ceremony in important.

I think we often lose touch with what is important for what some of society makes us think is important. It's called marketing.

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Lebell

You might also check out the Universalist Unitarians.

Not Christian, not Jewish, not really anything, they're an, um, interesting group with very eclectic spiritual views. Sounds like you might fit in with them.

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Cynthetiq

no religion here either.... she's jewish I'm nonpracticing catholic.

married by a notary public

legal in the state of Florida

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abaya

This thread has been helpful for showing us the diversity of wedding practices. Just last week, the friend of mine who is having a court wedding, did so... and apparently it was a beautiful, concise ceremony at the local courthouse. Never mind that it was for a visa situation... but they made it work.

Working on the spirituality aspect... but ktspktsp and I have long ways to go still before we get married, so we have time to discuss and learn how to compromise. We are always communicating!!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

chickentribs

I assume the courthouse wedding would have to be handled be a judge that he voted for as well, then??

I don't think it would be hypocritical for him to have a religious figure officiating, unless the priest/rabbi insists on a religious ceremony. A big part of the day is recognizing that you are becoming part of a family, and compromising a bit for the sake of the parents shows a respect for that. Getting married should be a fun, romantic day that brings the families together, and allowing that there is a spirit of love between you should not compromise any atheist rules!

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and most oft there Where most it promises
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Demeter

When I gat married, we had a Justice of the Peace come to a small community church, that we had set up for the ceremony. After the ceremony, when pictures were taken & people were mongling we had the hall rearranged with tables & chairs for the dinner/reception. It was nice & did the job we needed it to do.

The most important thing about the wedding ceremony is the intent. All the rest is details.

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*Nikki*

I just wanted to elope and be married, I didnt care by who. That part was just not importent to me.

However my husband wanted a priest to do it and since I didnt really care, that is what happened. I however did not want to be married in a church so we did it outside.

Of course everyone else who was involved (parents) were not happy about this. Oh well. It is all said and done now.

ktspktsp

I don't like this last comment of yours, chickentribs.

Anyway, a religious aspect is an issue for me. I feel that having a priest makes the ceremony religious, even if it's somehow supposed not to be a "religious ceremony".

I grew up in a country where I could never say out loud that I don't believe in God - it's taboo. I've only told some of my friends and family. I want my wedding day to be fun, romantic, and honest. I don't want to pretend I'm something I'm not.

chickentribs

The double question mark means I'm only half serious, doesn't it??
It was my lead footed way of saying that if it doesn't matter who the justice of the peace is, maybe it wouldn't have to matter who the person was at all... The end result is it's somebody that you pay to tell you to kiss your bride.

But, I respect the priority that having your religious freedom (or right to dissent) is for you. I dated a girl from the middle east for a long time and have been in both Saudi Arabia and Iran with her, and I will never forget what it felt like to hand over my personal rights and protections at the border of those countries...

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Oft expectation fails...
and most oft there Where most it promises
- Shakespeare, W.

ktspktsp

Thanks. It is an important issue for me.

cellophanedeity

Seeing as I don't really know too much about marriage laws... do you really need someone to preform the ceremony, or could you just do it on your own and go sign some papers to make it real?

Wondering for my sake more than anything.

Charlatan

I had a similar issue as your boyfriend abaya. I am an atheist and just see getting married by some sort of religious figure as hypocritical. I also never understood why I need the government's OK on who I want to have kids with and grow old. The government has enought to say about my life...

Add to this that for the longest time, I swore I would never get married. I just saw it as a waste of money that had no real purpose... I changed my mind on this. A wedding ceremony, at its most basic form is a time when you stand up in front of friends and family and declare your love for another person. A time when you declare that you are going to commit to this person. It *is* a significant moment in ones life.

Our ceremony was a little different from the norm. Our parents walked down the aisle and we both walked down the ailse together (the whole giving the bride thing always creeped me out). Some friends came up and read some relevant poetry. My wife then explained why she was there that day and said some vows she had written. I in turn did the same.

We had some more readings and then it was over.

We pretty much married ourselves. I suppose in the eyes of the law we are common law but there were just over 100 people there that day who witnessed the two of us getting married.


We only received a bit of flak in the early days from some of my my wife's religious relatives (oddly the one who is an Anglican Deacon showed up and even said a grace before the meal). The one's who didn't show did attend the wedding of my wife's cousin about a month later. A *very* traditional wedding in a big church with all the trimmings. They were seperated in less than a month.

We just celebrated our 12th anniversary.

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