Rdr4evr

Like I said, I hadn't a clue what it was I was following. Yes, apparently it is against Islam to possess pictures of Mohammad as they supposedly aren't even supposed to exist. Apparently paintings can be found very rarely here and there, but very difficult to find (if someone has more info on this subject, it would be appreciated). From my understanding, you're correct, a Muslim should not possess pictures of the prophet, but like I said, I knew nothing about it, I was young and foolish.

My belief is that religion is for the blind and weak, and I am not directly slamming anyone here as I have respect for religious people as long as they are good and decent people, but that doesn't change my opinion that they are blinded by religion.

cellophanedeity

My family didn't ever do the religion thing. I learned a little about Jesus and God from my mum, but that was the end of it.

After the all of the philosophy and personal study, I've realized that I am, and have always been, a Deist.

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OPgary

[B]My family was catholic and I had 12 years of Catholic school. Somehow it never caught hold of me. I think the Organized part is what turns me off. I just never cared for the mindless rules and regulations. Not just in Catholic Church, but in any church. I don't dislike God, but many times I wonder where He is. Then other times, sinner I am, I know He is taking care of me. But organized church, it is for someone else.

dlish

i come from a fairly religious muslim family in australia, although it wasnt something that was fed to me, i chose it on my own after high school (after an experience or two). i guess i can i wanted to join or become part of something with some meaning.

during uni days joined the muslim society and became an active member, but never the evangelist..but i was confident in what i knew, what i believed and what i wanted to be...it was a personal choice...

after uni, losing contact with some friends, working my butt off, your faith waivers a little (never was the evangelist, but just not as active or commited anymore), but never to the extent of questioning my validity in my beliefs...i guess u go through cycles

i guess im comfortable with what i know, and who i am without having to answer to anyone... i have never let anyone decide what i believe, how i should do things. each to their own...the important thing in all this is mutual respect regardless of beliefs... whether they be muslim christian jew agnostic athiest buddhist hindu...the list goes on. i have friends from all walks of life.. but mutual respect is the key

alladin_sane..islamic principles regard pictures of Mohammad or God for that matter as being against its tenants. so any holy pictures are a no-no. this was to guard against idol/picture worshipping ..something that many of the christian churches fell into...

as for pictures of Mohammad existing, yes i have seen a few... all the ones i have seen show him in the oriental form, with slanted eyes and the like, looked like a mongol, so its probably a safe bet to say its from central asia...

Raider, i can get you some info on this if you want.

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thingstodo

I grew up with Southern Baptist parents. Things were kind of quiet until my father came back from Viet Nam when I was 11. Then, pardon the pun, all hell broke loose. We started going to church each Sunday morning for Sunday school and then church, Sunday evenings for bibly study and then church and on Wednesday eveings for some other service.

I kind of got into things....I think in part because of the social aspects. Later on music played a big role along with the social stuff. By the time my last two years of high school rolled around I was quickly slipping away.

Now I believe in spirituality but not the organized crap of church. I guess that helps some people but not me. I also resent that christians think they have the only right answers and want to push it all on me. That goes for this whole republican mess we're inright now. If the christian religion was so perfect then there wouldn't be so many variations!!

And don't get me started on the bible. Wow, how much was left out from what has been written and how much was interpreted incorrectly? You can take what's left and twist it any way you want.

I don't need organized religion to be spiritual and do understand the difference between right and wrong. I don't need a bunch of people that want to control me feeding me morals - I have my own.

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Rdr4evr

I did some searching on the internet after the topic was brought up, and only found maybe two sources that stated that images of Mohammad exist, but that it is an Islamic crime to possess some imagery or even sell it for the reasons you stated (idolizing). I own a necklace currently with Mohammad on one side and Ali on the other, and I've also several images here and there, and he does appear to be Asian influenced like you stated. I've also spoke to several supposed devout Muslims who stated it is a sin to possess imagery and such things don't even exist. Yet I've also spoken to a few that say they do exist, but few and far, but from their understanding you can find plenty in Iran. That's about all I found out, whether accurate or false is beyond me though, but if you know of any information, sure, I wouldn't mind finding out. Don't go through excessive trouble to search for me, but if you have something off hand that you can post, it would be appreciated.

My grandfather is about as hardcore as a Muslim could get, but I rarely talk to him, and when I do, I don't get into any religious debates as it never really comes up.

dlish

Raider,
i have a few links that ill msg ya sometime today since this is no longer part of the topic. if anyone is intersted, msg me and ill pass the info on.

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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

streak_56

I went to church frequently when I was a kid. And then when my family moved out to Alberta we did not go to church at all. Mainly because all of us were really busy. With hockey, soccer, baseball, horseback riding.... etc. There was no time for religion at all. And then it fell out of favor with all of us.

Until recently where I began going back to church. My views are that I could learn something that would make me grow as a person. It has shown me that I can live with my faults but be loyal to the people around me. That I am who I want to be because I act on my own. "Learn from past mistakes and live for the future." I love that quote, I've learned more about life in church than any school, education would've given me.

Ambient1

I was raised in a non-religious household. There was no talk of a god or jesus; no explanation of the true meaning of Easter or Christmas. My father had been forced to attend church as a child and had stopped as soon as he moved out on his own. My mother's parents were of differing religions, and had basically stopped going.

I was baptised after I was born, and my mother was actually baptised the same day.

Around the time I was 4 or 5, my grandparents on my Dad's side decided that if my parents weren't going to take me to church, that they would.

I hated it.

For the next 6 years, I was forced to attend every Sunday. In my mind, there is nothing worse than forcing a religion on someone. There was nothing terribly bad about the actual church or service... but I was soured on the whole idea of religion.

It made no sense to me. You hear of people "finding god" all the time, but I thought something was wrong with me. I was feeling guilty for not feeling this faith.

When I was 10, my grandmother's sister (who is evangelical christian) started sending me away to a bible study camp every summer. I admit... I had fun there. Swimming, camping, hiking - as well as the requisite morning and evening daily service and bible study. I read the bible, prayed and sang... but I just wasn't feeling it.

I didn't believe.

I'm not sure when it happened, but somewhere between 10 and 12, I stopped trying. I became cynical of religion, and I really couldn't hide my contempt for those who had faith and believed.

But inside, I'll admit, I was jealous.

I saw how much their religion meant to them - how much it comforted them in trying times. And what was I left with? Nothing. It takes a lot of courage to come face to face with the reality that you will die and you will become nothing. It's a lot easier to think that you'll have a wonderfull afterlife in heaven - even eternal damnation in hell doesn't sound half bad in comparisson!

Coming to terms with death is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. I'll admit, I'm not comfortable about the prospect: to have all awareness drain from your body into eternal nothingness.

I *was* an atheist.

Over the years, I've become a bit more moderate... I've gained spirituality, although I still shun "religion". I still find the hardcore religious types to be creepy, and I try to keep my distance as much as possible.

Do I believe in god?

Well, I've gone from trying to believe, to beliving that there was no god. Right now, I'm not sure I believe, although I cannot positively state that there is no god. I guess that makes me an agnostic for now.

I've found that as I've grown older, my need to have some sort of belief system has increased. I've gone through some hard times and I've wondered what the point of living was. To reproduce? Is that it?? So I've been looking for "The meaning of life" and I have been doing some searching for a faith that I can believe in. I've read a lot about Buddhism lately, and it seems to fill a lot of my needs. It's all about self improvement and being content with life. But I'm not here to convert you to it.

Lead543

I've been going to church for 18 years. If I don't I get screamed at until I roll out of bed and called a sinner. When my brothers left home they stopped attending church. They're considered to be "going down the wrong path.", etc.

After 9/11 I started questioning my religion. I know the response to "why do bad things happen to good people?" is because "God gave us all free will and because of free will and Adam and Eve choosing sin there is pain and suffering and evil." When I step back, logically Christianity doesn't make much sense to me. Emotionally I don't feel the "spirit" "joy from God". I've met some very nice people in the church, but I've also met some people who use their religion to set themselves up on a pedastal. I go to church now and attempt to use the lessons taught to make myself a better person.

The person I associate the most with the church is my mom. I resent her a lot and now resent the institution she taken her beliefs, morals, values and opinions from. Religion shouldn't be forced, it should be a choice.

feelgood

Like what Streak_56 said, it kinda grew out on us. I think it's mainly because I had more freedom to choose if I wanted to attend church or not. As I grew up, the more I realized how full of shit religion can be, I gave it up. Even though, I still believe in God, I don't need to be part of an organization or attend weekly lecture about him.

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Meditrina

I'd like to reply first, then I will go back and read all of your responses. I am very interested to read what you all wrote.


I grew up with very little, if any, religion. My parents were non-practicising Jews, who never thought to find something else that fit their beliefs. They never even mentioned G-d at all. I never went to Hebrew school, and I never learned anything. I never realized what I was missing, until my first child was born. I married into a Catholic family, who accepted the idea that I was Jewish (even though I knew nothing, I would not have considered myself Jewish). I tried to raise my daughter with both religions, but that is impossible when you know nothing. I have since converted to Catholicism, so my daughter can have a religious education and have the knowledge to choose for herself when she gets older. I still know very little, but feel comfortable with what I chose. Every day I learn something new and my daughter does too.

I just wanted to add that I can understand why people move away from a religion that was forced on them. I hope my daughter does not feel that way. She attends religious education once a week at the church, and we attend as often as we can, but I do not force the issue. She seems to be taking it all in, and never fights me to go to church. Actually, sometimes she wants to go and I don't. When she is older, if she choses to switch religions, I will know that she has had a background as a base of knowledge and I will support her 100%.

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abaya

This is interesting, sportswidow... and I would have agreed with you in the past, as I always thought people should have a foundation in one belief system, even if they decided to toss it out later in life. It helps one mentally, I thought, to not have two authority figures (parents) telling you very different things about beliefs... which often leads to confusion and abandonment of being spiritual in any
way.

However, I think a little differently now, as I see pluralism/relativism as not necessarily being bad things (even though I am spiritual myself, and lean towards Christianity + Buddhism). So I'm curious: how did you come to the understanding that a background in one religion in particular would serve as a better base of knowledge than exposure to multiple belief systems? Can anyone else address this question?

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

abaya

I agree, Ambient1... this is the hardest thing for me to deal with in trying to walk away from the trappings of Christianity. I have been trying to come to terms with the idea that this life is all there is, that there is very possibly no after-life of any kind, and in some ways it is very gratifying... it makes me take life more seriously in general.

In other ways, this perspective feels empty and hopeless, compared to the ebullience I seem to remember having as a Christian (perhaps all constructed, but one can't tell at the time... it felt real then). The "comfort" you speak of, that you were once jealous of, is like an addictive force for my mind... because I became a Christian during my most formative years (14-20), it seems I always want to go back to it, like a warm bed that I can't escape... and honestly sometimes I don't know what would be so bad about doing so. Would doing so make me a bad person? Maybe I should be a cop-out and just take what I need from different belief/non-belief systems and be happy with my pluralism... but then I feel like I betray my own integrity and give in to a "drug" leftover from my teen years.

Yay for Buddhism! I am really curious, though, about how you have run the gamut of non-belief and are now arriving at a sense of spirituality... maybe you can say more in IM if it's a threadjack. I'll also start a related thread over in Living...

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Meditrina

It was not easy for me to teach her about Judiasm because I knew nothing, or at least very little. However, since my parents are Jewish, she is exposed to it a little bit. I do not know that one religion in particular is a better base than another, but since my husband's family is Catholic, they can help me and my daughter learn about it. I have the feeling I am not able to explain myself too well. There are times I wonder if I made the right choice. Not having any religious upbringing caused me a lot of confusion as I got older, especially when I got married and had children, and was finally exposed to a religion because of his family. I just don't want her to feel the same way.

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"Toughness is in the soul and spirit, not in muscles." ~Alex Karras

abaya

Yeah, that's understandable. Though it makes me wonder, what was it about his family that made you feel confused, or uncomfortable? Could they be accepting of your non-religious background? This is my question of interfaith marriages (or faith/non-faith). It seems that many people end up switching over to whatever system their spouse is on... either religious or not, etc. Is this mostly for the kids? Are there any examples of TFP'ers who maintain distinctive belief systems, apart from their spouses? What do you tell your children, as they grow up?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Meditrina

His family, especially his mom was so open-minded about the whole thing. They did not care that I was not Catholic. In fact, his mom would ask me questions about being Jewish that I could not answer. That was when I realized that I could not call myself Jewish just because my parents were/are. If I had more of a religious upbringing, I might not have converted. I started on this journey because of my daughter.

__________________
"Toughness is in the soul and spirit, not in muscles." ~Alex Karras

abaya

Thanks for your answers, sportswidow. It interests me a lot b/c I became religious as a teenager, and both of my parents converted to evangelical Christianity AFTER I did... and now that I am walking away from this "religion of my youth," (which I inculcated in myself, not from my parents), they are feeling disappointed in me as their "example." It's a weird twist on this whole topic, really.

Anyway, thanks again.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Meditrina

Abaya, your questions were very thought provoking for me. I enjoyed answering them. I am sorry your parents are feeling that way towards you, I agree it is a weird twist.

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Ambient1

abaya,

I've replied to your questions in the other thread you started (here).

braindamage351

This topic just doesn't sit well with me. You don't look at different forms of religion until you find the one that matches you best. You have to find one that you genuinely believe is true and then follow it. Anything else is just comfort for the mind and ultimately a crutch.

Ambient1

Braindamage,

Could you please explain what you mean a bit more? I'm a bit confused since your two statements seem to cancel each other out:

- You don't look at different forms of religion until you find the one that matches you best.
- You have to find one that you genuinely believe is true and then follow it.

tuner

I believe that you just have to believe in whatever suits you. At other times you'll be more religious, at other times not. Being super-religious all the time makes you a sheep.

hiredgun

Abaya, my sister is having a somewhat similar experience, so I thought I might share it.

I'm from a pretty strict Muslim household. We came to the US as fairly casual Muslims, I think, but once here my parents were a little xenophobic and the mosque became the center of their entire social life, strengthening their religious ties as well. Another big turning point was when my younger sister became the most religious of all of us, all on her own, adopting the headscarf.

[Btw, the head-covering is an extremely controversial topic in Islam. I know people who will tell you unequivocally that a woman will go to hell for not wearing it, and others who say that's compeletely ridiculous.]

But now, several years later, she no longer feels quite as religious, and definitely no longer wants to wear the headscarf. In the meantime, my parents will absolutely have none of it. Even though my mother began wearing it only after my sister did, she has completely forbidden my sister to remove it. As of now she still wears it. It's a touchy subject in the family.

After the above experience, of course, my sister became even more disillusioned with religion. It's hard to willingly hold on to something when it no longer feels like a choice.

I guess the above story sort of illustrates what I increasingly perceive to be the role of religion, and subsequently why I simply can't relate to it anymore, despite once being devout in my childhood. It's a social bond to other human beings, when other bonds are lacking. It emerges most sharply in times of insecurity or economic hardship, to downplay the importance of misery in "this life". It's a buttress against mortality; I've watched my parents and surviving grandparents become more and more religious as they approach old age. And it is a cultural tool manipulated by political elites for their own ends; many Muslim demagogues are all too guilty of this.

I apologize if the preceding paragraph offended anyone; these are just my perceptions, ideas that I can't shake and that have crystallized over a period of years as I "lost" my religion while growing up. The only times I have looked back, I have been motivated by fear; fear of hellfire and damnation, fear of social condemnation among my family, fear of growing old and dying without being able to believe that something better awaits me. When I realize that only fear is holding me back, I'm able to let go even more completely from the remains of what was once faith.

abaya

Thanks for sharing your story, hiredgun. I know it's easier said than done, but if I were your sister I'd remove the veil and let them all freak out, since eventually I hope they'd get over it (assuming they are rational people, which as an anthropologist, I know I should never assume... or rather, that there is not a universal type of "rationality" across cultures).

As for your comments about being motivated by fear... it's a thought-provoking idea. Perhaps I have only looked back when scared or guilty. On the other hand though, I prefer to think that not everything when I was "religious" was something deceitful and clothed in nice hymns and prayers. Sometimes, when I feel most spiritually connected these days, it's because of a deep sense of love. Love for other people, for life, for what I see as beauty and even pain... that is what brings me to faith again.

So it is not fear of hell, guilt, or loneliness, because I see each of these things as essentially human and not necessarily spiritual... but it is my sense of wonder that brings me to believe again. That there is something so much greater than myself and all of humanity put together. It is this awareness that I puzzle over almost daily, wondering what to make of it, or if anything in fact needs to be done... or if I can just let it exist in my soul, and appreciate its presence without labeling it or judging it as good or bad. That is where I am at these days.

.. hiredgun, incidentally, where is your family from?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

hiredgun

we're originally from pakistan. my parents grew up there and moved here only after I was born.

kangaeru

Someone once told me, that we cannot accomplish anything on our own. Anything we do is with the strength granted to us by God. Well, that pissed me off so bad, I decided it was the final straw and I was going to prove anyone who thought otherwise wrong.

I still have a massive overachieving / competitive complex today, but maybe that's just who I am, and my parting ways with religion was just because the teachings of the church go against my nature.

I guess I'm spiritual...I just believe if you're a good person, what goes around comes around. So I try to make as much go around, in my own ways, as I can.

Simple as that.

gilbert-

Same here.
I sort of lost interest as it was more or less something i had to do growing up for the first 18 years of my life - as it was something i had to do i became sick of it, it was more of a chore than a positive experience.
I'm the type of guy that when i do the one thing enough i get bored and sick of doing it. I've just lost the urge to go to church every week, however i do go at easter and christmas. One day things might chnge, until then, we'll see.

Prince

I can't stand religion. Spirituality, yes, but not religion.

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