kurty[B]

This has nothing to do with any sort of health benefits of cigarette smoking. It's simply about the events of last night.

I got home from work to find rose petals strewn all about my walkway to the door, and my girlfriend inside cooking. After our meal, and a shower together she went outside for a cigarette. I was inside doing the dishes, and stepped out to bring her some wine, and she looks distraught.

"Some guy just walked up the alleyway, stood in front of that storage unit door, and then just walked in and shut the door behind him". The storage units are about 4x3 ft, and I could see how if someone without shelter found one open would use it as a little place to stay. That storage unit happened to be next to mine.

We went through our initial thoughts about what he could be doing; just a place to stay sheltered from the elements, planning to break into someones place... I checked the apartment that that unit belongs to, nope, no one has lived there for a few months. I tried finding the emergency number for the apartment company, I'm so disorganized I gave up on that. I tried waking one of the neighbors who seems to know everyone who lives there. She's a little old lady who was already out cold for the night.

So, I go inside my apartment and find a dense blunt object, planning to go knock on the door, and ask what the person is up to, but not sure what to expect, because the description my girlfriend gave me was he was tall, and thin, and had a huge backpack on, but she could not see much else, because he was in the shadows.

Here I am, approaching this storage unit wondering what to expect, and my girlfriend asks me what the hell I'm doing? I tell her my plan of attempting to talk with the person, and hoping everything goes peacably, but that if he tries anything I'll be ready to bash his head end with the butt end of my gerber ax (the only thing aside from a frying pan I could find in my apartment). My girlfriend talks some sense into me, and I decide to call the Police. I did not particularly want to, what if the guy was just tired and homeless, and he happened to come across an unlocked storage door, and decided to make it his temporary shelter for the time being. He may not have had a single bad intention, and maybe just knocking on the door, and asking him what he was doing he would politely apologize and move on, maybe offer me some of his liquor and try and follow me into my apartment like other homeless people have. Then, there was that curiousity, of what if he was confused also, and ready to attack anyone who came to the door, thinking they were going to take him away??

A policeman showed up, and I pointed out which door the man had gone in, and was told to go inside. I went back to doing dishes, with my front door open so I could look over my shoulder and kind of see what was going on in the shadows. I hear another two units pull into the alleyway, and then hear them banging on the storage door, and I shudder (I really dislike that "policeman bang"). They yell for the man to unlock the door and come out, and that they are bring the dogs, and that he has two options, come out right then, and he will not get hurt, or force them to come in, and get bit. A few minutes later I hear the dog barking, and the same question. I then hear demands for hands in the air, and then see some shuffling of the shadows in the dark, and a little more yelling. An officer comes to my door a few minutes later and asks if there is an emergency contact number for the apartment complex, and I explain I already tried looking for it, but that there is a for rent sign out front, and if he called the number on it they might have an emergency number (realizing I should have thought to look at that number long before thinking to approach the door with a weapon in hand).

The two units in the alleyway left, and the other stuck around for about another hour, and I did not hear from another officer, or person that night. I guess if I want to know more about the incident I will have to ask the management company of the property what happened (I'm sure it will make the next month's newsletter). Part of me feels bad, part of me feels relieved. Although I dislike smoking, I am glad my girlfriend happened to be outside with a cigarette to see that man enter the storage unit.

Cynthetiq

being vigilant in your neighborhood is what is important in keeping the neighborhood safe.

while there's lots to be said for compassion towards fellow human beings it's hard when one has to say,"Not in my backyard..." but ultimately the correct one.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Master_Shake

But sticking your nose into other people's business isn't. You've successfully protected the interests of a property company that wouldn't care if you lived or died as long as you paid your bill. I hope you're proud of yourself.

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

kurty[B]

Sticking my nose in other people's business. I'm pretty sure said storage unit dweller was not paying to live in that property, and how would I feel if I left my "nose out of his business", and went outside the next morning to see windows smashed and stereos stolen out people's vehicles?

That company provides me a nice little place to live for a reasonable price, in a generally quiet neighborhood (definitely nicer than the suburban sprawl neighborhoods everywhere else).

I've done the find an abandoned apartment and stay there for a few days thing before, and well, if someone decided to call the police on me, because they saw a strange person enter an apartment they believed was abandoned, I would not be happy, but I would accept the consequences, because I knew what I was doing was illegal.

I personally like to talk to my neighbors when I see them, or even just wave. Their business is their business, but if something strange is going on that gives me the slightest inkling it may endanger myself, friends, or my neighbors and/or our property then I am not just going to say "Ho hum, I better keep out of his business".

the_marq

kurty-b

I commend you on getting involved. It's too easy to isolate yourself from the neighbourhood you live in with the "it's not my problem" attitude. It's that sort of attitude that leads to bigger problems down the line.

__________________
The Truth:

Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to.

#3 in a series

Cynthetiq

I don't see how him calling the police who then did the questioning etc, as him or even myself "sticking my nose into other people's business."

If the person was the proper owner then where is it wrong? Because they had to identify themselves? Because a neighbor was concerned for their own well being and that of their family?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Master_Shake

But he didn't know if it was the proper owner or not. He acted without sufficient information to know what was going on and he wasn't invited to be a part of that man's activities. That's sticking his nose into other people's business.
How would you feel if every time you go someplace new the cops accost you? Want to try out the new ice cream stand? Well be sure to spare time for the pat-down search and dog sniff. Unless there's a clear emergency presenting itself just leave well enough alone.

Hold on, that was not the situation at all. He was concerned for the property of the management company. That's a pretty tenuous relationship. Do you feel the need to safeguard the property of everybody that you purchase things from?

The slightest inkling? How often do you call the cops? If two people have an argument, do you call the cops to get involved and make sure there's no fighting going on? If a neighbor sends his kid to bed without supper do you call children and youth services to investigate neglect?

Cops have to wait and act on probable cause or reasonable suspicion for a reason (which your blind call probably provided in this situation). Your slightest inkling standard is a little frightening. Should everyone have to run things by you to make sure they're OK?

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

kurty[B]

OK... Well, it's not everyday I see a person open a door to a small storage closet, walk in, and the shut the door behind them, and not come out for over 15 minutes. Especially when it's a storage unit that belongs to an apartment that is not even occupied. Let's put two and two together there, and either way you look at it that doesn't really work out.

How does trying out an ice cream stand, and stepping into a small storage unit, locking the door behind you, and not coming back out for a long period of time coincide?

Now, you're making assumptions... At the time I was worried what the person was up to? Was he going to break into someone's car, something else, was he just staying for the night, I don't know, but I've had my car broken into before, and I know I don't want to spend resources, or force someone else to spend resources to repair damage someone else did because I didn't think it was my problem.


This would be the first time I have called the police for anything. Personally, I'd rather avoid getting them involved, and was fully ready to knock on the door and talk about it. If my girlfriend had not been there, and I knew the person was in the storage unit I probably would have done that without thinking about other options. Of course, having the ability to discuss the situation before taking action, we both agreed that it'd be better for a police officer trained to handle such a situation, rather than me and my hiking ax.

Yakk

Yes. Well, 'want' rather than 'need'. And even if I didn't purchase things from them.

For various reasons, I don't like theft, property damage or other simular acts occuring uncaught 'near' me.

He didn't say call the cops. He said he wouldn't keep out of their business.

In this particular case, kurty{B} did some preliminary checks to see if the storage unit was being used by the owner. And the person inside stayed inside for an unusually long period of time.

As his GF noticed, talking to an unknown person while they are backed into a corner can provoke them, if they are up to no good. Hence calling the police rather than talking to the person himself.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Cynthetiq

master shake.

I own a property in Las Vegas and I live in NYC. When I'm in Las Vegas I visit my property and I poke around to look at it. If a neighbor called the police because a strange man was "casing" the property, I have no issue with having to identify myself as the owner of said property.

I think that you have too many paranoid delusions.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Master_Shake

I see, so where there's smoke there's fire, and let's just get the authorities involved everytime somebody does something even remotely suspicious.

In that just as you didn't recognize that person and you called the cops, how would you feel if people called the cops everytime you went somewhere and people didn't recognize you? I guess I'm assuming that you wouldn't have called the cops if you had recognized the guy as the rightful owner of the storage space, but perhaps you'd have called no matter what.

What could have possibly lead you to believe he was breaking into someone's car? If you've left facts out of your description of the situation then please let me know, but based on what you've written, I see no evidence that he was planning to break into somebody's car.

OK, so it's allright if it happens in the poor neighborhood in town, just so long as it doesn't happen near you? And if you would have also called the police based on this low level of suspicion I must assume you live in a fortified castle with a moat and 24 hour security service. That just seems a little excessive to me.

That's pretty weak evidence to get involved in the situation.

Have you ever done something that somebody might have had a slight inkling about you doing something wrong? Ever come home real late at night? Ever go someplace where people don't recognize you? How would you feel if the cops bust in on you with dogs and flashlights?

And sure, I'm not suggesting he should have gone down there by himself to check things out. I'm suggesting he should have stayed out of it alltogether.

I guess you believe that being hassled by the cops is no big deal and that the cops are really there to protect you. If so, well, that's just where you and I disagree.

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

Amnesia620

Master Shake -

Having been raised by a single parent who still holds on to many of his "hippy" tendencies and is radical in some of his beliefs, ideas and thoughts, I've been raised to have no respect for the "pigs". However, when it comes to my safety (nevermind the fact that I recently experienced a robbery in my previous home WHILE I was sleeping) I will happily take what safety and protection I can get. In this world, I've found it's better to be a bit paranoid, act upon it and have your paranoia disproved then have "total faith" or a "benefit of the doubt" and have something terrible happen.

Granted, the guy could have just needed a place to sleep...I have been homeless a few times already in my life, I know how rough it can be...I also know that some people, both men and women, bend and/or break their own rules, laws, beliefs and values to survive...they learn to help themselves in a very wrong way...

Let's look at it from a different point-of-view: If the man was harmless, looking to stay warm and safe sleeping and the cops were called when they shouldn't have been, then at least the man has a warm place to sleep for a night, a bed (for what it's worth), food, etc.

Most of the time they drop the charges (oooh, BIG misdemeanor charge of "trespassing") and also it's an opportunity for the man to find a shelter to stay in, sources and programs that MAY be able to assist him in any area of help he may need to get back on his feet...

Let's be angry at the cops when they beat a black guy in the street or shoot a man 80 + times with pepper balls when he's COOPERATING with police demands...let's get pissed off at that...not when they (peacefully) remove an individual from being in/on property that is not his...

__________________
For example, I find that a lot of college girls are barbie doll carbon copies with few differences...Sadly, they're dumb, ditzy, immature, snotty, fake, or they are the gravitational center to orbiting drama. - Amnesia620

Master_Shake

Of course, you absolutely have a right to protect yourself from people hurting you or your loved ones. But nothing in his story should have caused a reasonable person to fear for his life. Reading his story in the light most favourable to his actions AT WORST there was a slight risk to the property of the management company, and only very weak evidence to support even that assumption.

Protecting yourself and neighbors is a noble goal. Calling out the cops to harrass people based on suburban suspicion of strangers is bullshit.

I see, you must not be from America. Here the goal of our criminal justice system is punishment, not rehabilitation.

And I'm not trying to indict the police here, they did their job after being called out by a paranoid neighbor. In fact, they were taken away from possibly more pressing duties to investigate this situation. The police should only be called in serious situations, not every time somebody feels like it.

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

kurty[B]

Master_Shake, I'm going to stop arguing with you, because it's going no where. I talked with the management company today. Like I knew, that property has no current renters, and that man was simply squatting in the tiny storage unit. Do I feel bad for calling the police now? No, that was not his property in any way, shape or form!

I've had my car broken into three times, once right in front of my old house, once while watching a movie at a theater, each consisted of broken windows, and ruined dashes. Forgive me for thinking someone who quietly walks into a 4ft x 3ft storage unit, and closes the door behind them is probably not up to any good.

Master_Shake

I'm sure we all feel a lot better knowing that you're there to protect corporate interests. I just hope that nobody ever suspects you of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and sic's the dogs on you. Ever been manhandled by the cops? It's not a pleasant experience.

There's no need to forgive you for thinking someone's up to no good. But think that someone might be up to no good and getting involved in the situation are two totally different things. I'm fairly confident that my neighbors smoke weed, but I don't call the cops to rat them out because I feel some need to protect the community from weed-smokers.

Hopefully you'll never break the law, and if you do, hopefully no one will rat you out and you'll never have to experience what that man went through. You will continue to be protected in your nice white suburban fortress.

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

Amnesia620

I do agree with you on the point that Police are a resource that shouldn't be wasted/taken for granted. I do see your point on being called away from any possible emergency that would require their assistance, it would be more important.

Couldn't be more American if I tried, however, there are a lot of people who still believe that there is some good in The System...not everything is automatically negative or corrupt.

I can see your point on the fact that yes, the suspect didn't show any sign of intimidation or threat, however, since the future can't always be foretold in detail, it sounds to me like it was motivated a bit by ego, paranoia and a little bit of sleep deprivation. Hey, it happens.

Chalk it up to eliminating the "what ifs" so they could sleep better that night.

__________________
For example, I find that a lot of college girls are barbie doll carbon copies with few differences...Sadly, they're dumb, ditzy, immature, snotty, fake, or they are the gravitational center to orbiting drama. - Amnesia620

Yakk

Sure. I've even been nibbled on by a security dog. Everyone was polite, and nothing came of it. I got a good story!

It wasn't police in my case, it was a private security firm.

They checked -- there was noone apparently renting the apartment associated with the lockup, and it didn't look like the landlord.

I never said it was fine not happening near me. I just said I preferred it not happening near me. But, I'm not going to run over to the other end of town and look for thieves, if that is what you mean -- too much bother.

First of all, have you ever looked up the term "straw man"? I think you'd be much better at speaking rationally if you knew of it.

Second, what low level of suspicion are you referring to? You mean someone that apparently isn't renting an apartment going into a storage shed, closing the door behind themselves, and staying inside for an extended period of time?

I am aware that you believe the entire societial complex is designed to fuck you.

Look at me as us of those on the other side then. I'm part of The Man, and boy is it good!

Someone enters and stays inside a storage shed from an apparently unoccupied room. That is worthy of suspicion.

Once again, you are being absolute in an area where things aren't black and white.

I don't do it because I don't see there being anything really wrong with smoking weed.

In your case, you see nothing wrong with stealing property rights from "corperations" (otherwise known as "other people").

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Carno

Hmmm.. I will have to side with Master Shake. The guy was in an abandoned storage unit. What was he going to steal? He wasn't harming anyone. I don't think you were protecting anything, I think you were just being a tattle tail.

The_wall

what else could this guy have been doing in a storage unit other than squatting?

__________________
"We do what we like and we like what we do!"~andrew Wk

Procrastinate now, don't put off to the last minute.

ShaniFaye

I just love all the different opinions here.

kurty[B] I would have done the exact same thing...especially if your complex has children around. Sometimes homeless are harmless, sometimes not.....its possible he wasnt homeless, Id rather be safe than sorry. If the cops were called on me, I would have no problem, nor would I be mad at the person that called, IF I had a legitimate reason to be there.

There are too many missing kids in the world that end up being found in non used places like that for me to "just let it go"

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

ngdawg

Good grief, people....
What else could he be doing? Let's see...shooting dope....waiting for lights to go out or the GF to go back inside so he could get to the work of burglarizing a place or two...maybe a rapist taking a break? He wasn't a tenant-didn't belong in a shed-I'd have called the cops too. I sure wouldn't want to wake up to find my things vandalized, stolen or someone hurt because I didn't want to be bothered.
We had this happen-dog next door was a notorious barker. So, at midnight one night when he went on a barking fit, we merely shouted at him to shut up. And guess what? He was barking at the burgular(s) who had broken into his owner's garage, stolen items out of the car, then made their way up and down the street, stealing from other cars, including mine. But no one bothered to check things out since "Prince is alwåys barking".
And, MasterShake and Carn-you have a great future in burglary and grand larceny if everyone took your attitudes.

Carno

Christ Almighty. Do you think everyone you don't recognize is a criminal???

Let's all assume the worst in everyone, that'll make this world a great place to live in!!!!

So you think you would have been better off by calling the cops every time the dog barked? I don't understand your point. Your example has nothing to do with this thread. Your neighbors should have trained their dog NOT to bark, unless there was someone strange in the house. And when the dog barked, then you investigate, and if it's somebody breaking your car windows, then call the cops.

Are you implying that I'm a criminal because of my attitude towards this situation?

Honestly, what I would have done is left the guy alone for the night, and checked in the morning. If he was still there, I'd tell him to leave or I'd call the cops. If he came back, I'd call the cops.

But then I'm not Chicken Little, and I like to give people the benfit of the doubt. And I'm not a woman.

EDIT: I didn't mean that as a gender slur, I just meant that being a man I am not as fearful as a woman would be.

kurty[B]

Wow, this thread has quickly degraded to a shit flinging match.

Averett

Amazing. You edited to add that you didn't mean it as a gender slur, and then you used a gender slur.

Awesome.

Best Thread Ever!

__________________
Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.

Master_Shake

Well, then you're a better man than I am. I would have a hard time being so forgiving if the cops threatened to sic dogs on me and had me arrested.

Even assuming that the person had no legitimate purpose there (which I still see very little evidence to support. Just because he doesn't recognize the guy doesn't mean the guy had no business being there) at worst the guy was going in to sleep off a hangover, homeless and trying to find a place to stay, etc. There is absolutely no evidence (from the story given) to suggest the guy was going to destroy anything or harm anybody. It's a big leap to go from one to the other. Now, recognizing that the guy MAY have been trespassing to find a place to sleep for the night, you still would have called the cops? That's just too weak for me to get the cops involved. Is there so little crime near you that a homeless guy sleeping the night off is your biggest threat? Has your town eradicated all murders, rapes, DUI's, and underage kids smoking? Is the remote possibility that a homeless guy is trying to get some rest such a pressing concern that you have to call the cops?

If so, I guess we just live in very different areas and we're unable to see common ground. Maybe this is what's best in your community. Maybe the cops really do solve problems, instead of causing more, where you live. That hasn't been my experience, and that's what I have to use to base future decisions on.

I was trying to be sarcastic and suggest that if you are so paranoid about strangers walking around then it would follow that you must live in a very protected area because there are a lot of strangers out there. I don't think that's a straw man argument, that's just taking your argument to an absurd conclusion.

The slightest inkling standard that the poster referred to here:
That probably happens a lot. Is it really necessary to get the police involved everytime? Couldn't those resources be put to better use? I think we have to weigh the costs and benefits of such action.

Cost: Cops' time, resources diverted from possibly important work, aggravation to the "suspect."

Benefit: Ensuring no one tresspasses on corporate property.

What would your decision be?

How is it being absolute to say that the purpose of the criminal justice system is to punish people? There may be rehabilitative aspects, but they are few and far between. The purpose, the driving force, the main motivation is to punish people. Do you really think the purpose is something else?

! So you admit that some laws shouldn't be enforced! Amazing. Well, how would you feel if your elderly neighbor called the police to report you for smoking weed and they show up on your doorstep with an attack dog and guns? Would you appreciate that?

Right, because that guy walking into a storage shed was doing some really heavy shit. Thank god they caught him.

Hey, I'm not stealing anything from anybody, and I'm not suggesting it's allright to steal. But there was no evidence that the guy was going to steal something from that story.

Jesus, that's an active imagination you've got there man.

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

StanT

Add one more to the "I'd call the police" side.

I have no problem with the homeless, I donate money and time to help them out. I've been homeless for short periods. If I lived by myself, I'd probably ignore them. But I actually live with my wife and 2 daughters. Their safety is more important than nearly anything else. I walk up to strangers in the neighborhood and ask them if I can help them find something. If they entered an abandoned building or shed, I'd call the police. In my area, it's called neighborhood watch, we all look out for each other. We all report things that don't belong or don't look right. If I got stopped and questioned in my neighborhood, I'd thank the cop for checking things out.

Cynthetiq

gotta keep it civil in here guys...

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Master_Shake

Well hey, if you're paying the taxes to support such things, then bully for you. It sounds like you live in a real tightly-run, moderated and controlled community. Nobody gets out of line or does anything wrong, right?

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

Cynthetiq

I'll add my point of view following up on the "Broken Window Theory" followed by Mayor Guiliani.

While I didn't like the tactics of implementing it. It did a wonderful job of cleaning up the city in under a decade.

So much so that the recent mugging that turned into a shooting death the girl brazenly said after the mugging,"Are you going to shoot us too?" and the mugger did.

Now, I live next to a park. There's sometimes lovers that park there, and sometimes there's johns and hookers. I call the police each time I see people sitting in their cars for longer than 15 minutes. I live in a community that's relatively safe being here in NYC. It used to be a notorious neighborhood from the 1880s until just over a decade ago. It's been brough to a safer point and now it's up to us to help keep it safe.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

thinktank

Well, although I don’t know if Master Shake is doing the best of presenting his point very well, I have to agree with him to a certain extent. Preventative justice is a really bad idea, look at Reagan and "No Knock." Bad policy got out of hand to the point where they could basically just kick down your door on a hunch. Everyone was completely raped of some of their constitutionally protected rights. I think that although Kurty was acting in what he though was his best interests, he was giving the police power that probably wasn’t his to give. When it comes down to it, my basic feeling on this is that it wasn’t his property, and it wasn’t his business.

the_marq

And there we have it my friends, the essence of this entire debate.

Someone breaking into my neighbours shed..... not my problem.
Some kid breaking car windows across the street from my house.... not my problem.
Some chick getting raped in the alley behind my house... not my girlfriend, not my problem.

Once again I commend you for getting involved kurtyB.

__________________
The Truth:

Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to.

#3 in a series

Master_Shake

Oh please, the point of this thread is that the guy acted without real knowledge, just the suspicion that somebody was tresspassing, not breaking into, there's no allegation of violence here.

The slightest inkling standard is not a reasonable one.

EDIT:
I admit, it can be a sliding scale. There's no clear point when you should get involved and when you shouldn't. But when there's no violence involved, and it doesn't concern your own property, I see very little justification for getting involved.

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

Master_Shake

And now there's a Disney store in Times Square instead of pornographic bookstores. If you really think that's an improvement then I totally understand why you would have called the cops in such a situation.

Wow man, you've gone from calling the cops to protect property to calling the cops to protect, what? People having sex is the ultimate measure of something that's not your business. Would you like it if cops busted in on you while you were trying to get down?

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

Yakk

Who said anything about threatened. The dog was sic'd on me -- I was in a dark building, and didn't hear the calls for 'anyone there?'

The dog nibbled on me (well, held me with his teeth -- no skin was broken). I recieved worse injuries from playing with a friend's dog.

The act was understandable and measured, and the dog was well trained.

They didn't shoot him -- they simply wanted to find out why he was there. The only safe way to do this turned out to be calling the police.

No, there was no proof of imminent financial or physical harm. There was some evidence of criminal behaviour and breaking of societies legal taboos (using someone's property without their permission).

Yes, if someone is tresspassing for extended periods of time, I'd call the police. It's polite to the owner of the property.

No, it isn't. I disagree with your standard. It's a silly, useless one.

I understand the virtue of property rights. If that homeless man wants to ask permission to use the storage room for sleep, I have no problem with it.

A straw man arguement is when you hold up an arguement that your opponent didn't actually claim, and argue against it instead of against your opponent.

I will repeat myself -- he never said he'd call the police on the slightest inkling. I never said that. You are putting words in other people's mouths.

If you can communicate with the person without backing them into a corner, there are better alternatives. In the USA with the commonness of guns, I would hesitate in talking to a complete stranger (esp. in an area where I would expect to know most people) without a large number of witnesses and other threat mitigators around.

The police where called because he didn't feel safe confronting the person in the storage shed.

I'd call up the landlord myself -- but, as noted, they failed to find that number. Saying 'you cannot live in my building' is, in my opinion, a valid private property right. As such, I support it.

I also seek to avoid close sustained proximity in uncontrolled situations with people who don't have a vested interest in societal stability and who self-select for such proximity. While most people are good people, particular persons are pretty assholic. Random people are safe and honest, people who approach you are far less so.

Because some of the philosophical basises for common-law is very non-retribution based. This includes American justice. There is a strain of retribution, a strain of rehabilitation, and other strains of justice, in the American justice system.

Your claim was overly broad and absolute.

No, my morals are not determined nor delimited by laws. The police are one tool I can use in my attempt to live morally. Sometimes living morally requires me to use force (direct, implicit or indirect) on others, in measured and restrained ways.

Simply because I disagree with some laws, doesn't mean I believe no law should be enforced.

I would disagree with that neighbour. And the police, if they found out that all I had done was smoke weed, would probably get pissed off at the neighbour. I'd had over my 100$ fine -- if they bothered to charge me -- and go on with my life.

Neighbourhood watch is typically a volunteer thing, not a pay-taxes thing. Or at least that is what it is in my neck of the woods.

When you have alot invested in society, breaking societies rules and taboos in major ways is a high-risk activity. This keeps people civilized. There are other ways and reasons to be civilized, but this one seems to be more reliable than others.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

ngdawg

It's 'lady'. And that DID happen in this area.....guy got 130 years in prison for being a serial rapist.
I'm outtahere....

thinktank

I find it unfair that you could juxtapose what I said to my approving rape, thats a pretty low blow, cat.

Cynthetiq

It is my business when they leave condoms on the ground. There's families that live in this neighborhoods. Children should be subject to seeing prostitutes servicing johns? What about near your house? Please let me know where to tell them to park.

I wouldn't enjoy it and I wouldn't be doing such things IN PUBLIC. If I am, then I'm subject to someone's interpretaitons of law. But if you're talking about the privacy of your own home, obviously no one wants that kind of intrusion. I'm talking about PARKED CARS and loitering.

So I take it that you aren't upset when your neighbor's dog takes a crap on the sidewalk and you have to step around the shit? It's none of your business based on your logic.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ShaniFaye

so thinktank...you're saying its ok to call the cops if you witness criminal activity, but not the potential for it?

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

the_marq

Not my intention.

What I was trying to get at is that we all have a level wherein we feel is appropriate to step in and say "No, that's fucking wrong." and do something about it. IE: Call the cops.

For kurtyB that level was seeing a person enter property that he had no legal right to be in. For you, that level is somewhat higher.

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The Truth:

Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to.

#3 in a series

thinktank

Bingo.
I'm almost sorry that I posted in this thread at all. Really bad vibes.