Strange Famous

Ok, there is this girl, and I only know her online (she is from CA) but I really like her, and we were really good friends for a while... but I just feel like I am ruining it cos we cant stop arguing about politics and religion, not just when we talk but she also posts on the same board I do (not this one) and picks up on things I say there, and then IM's me saying how sad it makes her and so on...

She is a devout Christian (believes that the Old Testament and New Testament are the true and inarguable word of God), is anti-gay, anti-abortion. Politically, she voted for Bush, she supports the war in Iraq and the US Soldiers there.

I think it is fair to say, in this community for example, there is a good chance that there is no one here to the left of me. My world view is i pretty much taken from Marx and Pannokiek (sic?) , I am a pacifist.. and while I dont actually act on any of my convictions (I am a low level manager for a fuel sales company) the things she believes arent just opposite to me, they are very very difficult for me to accept at all. (and maybe she feels the same way about me, although I dont think she knows very much about Marxism, and just thinks the word "communist" means Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot)...

I really do like her though, she is a really sweet girl, and we get on v well, until we talk about anything political or religious - obviously, I try not to bring those things up, but sometimes they do, and sometimes I just cant hold my tounge. She isnt really aggressive in arguments, just always says what I say is "sad".

I just wondered, does anyone have any likewise experience? Can something like this work? Should I just keep trying to not bring things up, bite my tounge when they do, find a different message board to her to post on... or can you never be friends when you both believe things that are abhorent to the other person?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

SecretMethod70

Heh, this makes me think of James Carville and Mary Matalin. Surely, not quite as politicaly different as what you describe, but different no less. If you don't know who they are, James Carville is a Democratic campaign strategist. Mary Matalin is the same on the Republican side of the fence. They are married. Imagine being married and being the chief strategists in a presidential campaign against each other. They have lived through it.

The fact is, it's all about respect for the other person. You must have respect for the fact someone has differing views than you do. With religion and politics, this can be difficult for many people. If you're capable of respecting completely opposite views and looking beyond them to the person that has them, you're good to go. If not, it has the potential to create problems.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Hirare

Exactly!!! I have friends with different view on every subject you could think of. If you listen to eachother discuss the topics in a civil manner and show eachother respect people with views that are in opposition with your can be very intellectually stimulating.

Rlyss

Next time you see her wait until you're both in a happy mood or something and just say to her 'Hey, I know this is out of the blue, but we have such different views on politics and religion that I think it gets us into a bit of trouble. I know I'm really stubborn sometimes and I don't want that to get into the way of our friendship, so let's stick to happy topics eh?"

Hopefully she'll be able to accept that. If she's really like it sounds then she'll probably take it to mean that you know she won't ever 'see the light', but I guess just try and make it sound like your fault. Obviously it's the fault of both of you for not having enough self-control to change the subject since you both know that the other won't change their mind. Neither of you have a hope of converting the other, she's not going to suddenly stop and say 'You know what? You're right, I'm wrong about my religion and politics' so I think the best you can do is see it coming and stop it before it happens by changing the subject.

welshbyte

That hits the nail on the head. I just hope for your sake that she respects your views and beliefs and isn't trying to convert you to her way of thinking using the "...that makes me sad" argument. I had an ex who tried to manipulate me like that (I'm not saying your gal does of course! ) and it was doomed from the start.

Mutual respect is definitely the key

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SpikeQX99

Politics and religion are sticky topics for most people, solely for the fact that there are SOOO many different opinions out there.

I've found that it's best to not voice my opinion on either subject, because it either
A) Get's me in trouble or..

B) Exiles some people, because I don't "see things their way".

So, I just usually bow out when it comes to conversations on either subject.

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I'm so in love with a girl... she is my everything

MSD

The simple fact is that some people are not open-minded or mature enough to admit that not everyone needs to think like they do. All you can do is to avoid the topic, the rest is up to her.

rockzilla

Yep, if you can accept her views, then you've done all that you can. Her saying that your views are 'sad' is a passive aggressive way of trying to change you. If she can't give you the same respect that you give her then she's the sad one.

Cynthetiq

I can't add any more to the topic.. it's all been said

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TIO

I'm a devout atheist. One of my best mates is the ex-president of my university's Christian Union. We get along fine. Quite a while ago, I made it clear to him (politely but firmly) that he wasn't going to change my views on anything, and he made it clear that he thought I was wrong, but wouldn't try to convince me. Occasionally, we talk about religious matters, usually when I have a question or something and want to know what the Christian perspective of it is. I try to keep my questions interesting and slightly tricky, and he enjoys thinking about what I've said and debating the issues with me.

The key to our relationship is that when we do discuss religion, we maintain respect for each other. It also helps that we try to keep it light-hearted; I throw in a few barbs about 'works of fiction', and he occasionally warns me to stay inside during thunderstorms. But it's all in good humour.

Not really any great advice for you; just an example to show that such relationships can work.

__________________
Strewth

ratbastid

Yep. Agree to disagree, and then agree not to talk about it anymore.

MooseODV

ratbastid - This works to some extent, however I enjoy the occasional theological or political discussion. Also if we all agreed to disagree then no one would get anywhere.

As has been said before respect is the most important thing. I can talk to people about controversial things, such as politics and religion as long as they maintain the conversation as a learning experience rather than a chance to belittle the other side. I always try to understand the other side as much as possible and go from there.

Strange Famous – I hear where you’re coming from. A very good friend of mine from high school has all but stopped talking to me since the election. Before the election conversations would just get annoying. Every time politics came up, he’d maintain the idea that every political discussion we had in the past he had “won”. Whatever that is supposed to mean. He doesn’t see our conversations as a chance to learn a new perspective, but rather an opportunity to educate my stupidity. I’ve always thought that it was just important to learn while you teach as well as learn while you are taught. If that makes any sense….

Strange Famous

deleted and deleted again

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Strange Famous

sorry for posting such a mad long convo... but if anyone bothers to read it, what do you think - is it me, is it her? Is it like she said, that I just don't get it?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Fohur2

Hmm,semi-interesting read there.Not much to add,seemed like the other person was abit stubborn enough to pull you into an argument.hopfully they didn't see your away message.

Tarl Cabot

I have observed relationships of this nature in the past, and not once have I seen one work out.

Here's the bottom line: If you want a relationship with her, you're going to have to think like she does, and act like she does, in terms of religion. So if you think you should change, it's you. If you think you shouldn't have to pretend to be something you're not, it's her.

Why am I so blunt? I have Christian beliefs, and I once dated a girl who had very strong beliefs in a denomination different from mine. After a week, I began hearing questions about whether I was "serious," or if she was "wasting her time." The unspoken message was that I would need to convert to her denomination. No ifs, ands, or buts.

She had made long-range arrangements to move to another state before I met her. After six or eight months, and a few fights and makeups, she did.

I later found someone else, and I've been married to her for twenty years. I just checked the civil records of the state in which the first one resides, and it appears as if she's never been married.

My advice: Be true to yourself. You're the only one you can depend on.

P.S. When you think you'll never find anyone else, it's easy to make a mistake. Things always get better eventually.

Rlyss

I read that conversation. It's not her fault, she's not dragging you into an argument, you're not just defending what you believe against some Christian fanatic, it's nobody's fault, and it's everybody's fault. Neither of you are going to convince the other to change beliefs, and no amount of logic here will make one or the other 'see the light'.

You're not defending your beliefs against her Christian attack, and she's not defending hers against your heathen ways. You both need to just avoid these conversations and if you see them coming, bite your lip and control yourself, keep your ego in check and don't get into an argument with her. You both need to keep the burning desire to be right in check and keep in mind that you can have a friendship that doesn't involve politics and religion.

You can tell that to her if you want, tell her you want to keep those religious topics out of bounds but she might take it the wrong way and see you as stubborn. You see her as stubborn and brainwashed, she sees you as stubborn and brainwashed, you're never going to win, and she's never going to win. Just keep an eye out for these topics and avoid them.

Baron Opal

It looked like to me that niether of you were acknowledging each other's points. You argued at cross purposes. But, it was civil.

She feels great comfort from her faith, and it is a source of stability and strength for her. She wants you to have that same strength. As long as she can respect that you need to find that strength another way, or you have found it another way, the two of you will be fine. And that is what needs to be discussed.

la petite moi

Well, all I know is that my relationship with my boyfriend (we are both athiest) was almost torn apart by his mother, who was UTTERLY shocked and totally hurt that her son would have sex before marriage. We had a nice long talk, where I discussed breaking up with nwlinkvxd to her because I was so upset that she couldn't accept our decisions as adults.

I just told her I respected her beliefs, and that I, in no means, wanted to offend her or break her trust. We made a promise not to have sex in her home and worked it out as adults.

With your friend, I think you should have the same respect talk- "I'll respect your beliefs, if you respect mine."

spindles

I am quite lucky - my wife is a christian and I am not. When we first started going out, she held out some hope that I would magically convert.

We do have biblical discussions (gee - I can't talk/discuss/argue about anything, even stuff I don't believe), but that does not change our positions.

She goes to church on Sundays and I don't.

We have been married almost 5 years and it is not a problem for us.

As has been said, it is simply about having respect for the beliefs of others, without having to agree.

Edit - I just thought after submitting - this really depends on what you are expecting from this relationship - the conversation above talks about visiting - if you expect this to be a long term relationship, you really have to set ground rules early on the position you are taking - it may be that she will only have a relationship IF you change your views - be ready to walk away if things go in a direction you don't want. I made it clear to my wife BEFORE we got engaged that I was an agnostic, and would require something mind boggling big to change my view. We have mutually agreed to disagree. All her christian friends know my position and it is not an issue at any gathering (which occur fairly regularly)

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who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

guy44

My friend (dyed in the wool liberal) lived a year with another of my friends (abrasive neocon). They simply agreed that, while they were in their place, they wouldn't discuss politics. It worked for a while. Of course, since you don't have to live with this person, maybe avoiding these topics in general is a good idea.

Another of my good friends was a Republican. We both loved politics. Uh, oh. We talked a lot, trying desperately to find areas we agreed about. Without a doubt, we'd hit areas where me and my liberal friends would gang up on this interloper. It was a little rocky, as I felt really bad after we'd do this. Luckily for me, he spent time on the Hill and came back a Democrat. I guess my advice is: avoid these topics when you can, but when you discuss these things, make sure you both understand that whatever you say is academic and not personal in nature.

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Sbudda

Ok I'll chime in jsut for the heck of it.

That IM conversation was totally your fault. Trying to convince a Christian that Christmas isn't about Christ is like trying to convince a dog that he shouldn't eat food anymore. I'm not comparing Christians to dogs, but rather the fact that both examples flies so far against their beliefs that they can't deal with it. A better example might be trying to convince a 5 year old that his birthday is really about celebrating the baking industry. Damn, that was a crappy example too...

Sure, I can agree with you that Christmas isn't about Jesus to a great many people, but to a Christian, saying this is close to heresy. You would have been subjected to the veglia saying something like that 400 years ago. If you want to argue that Jesus was Mary dressed as a transvestite you are likely to get a similar response.

Otherwise, you both remained civil so it doesn't seem that bad. I actually prefer to cultivate friends of different dogmas. Trying to convince them of my point of view often exposed holes in my own logic that either enables me to strengthen my beliefs or discard them as useless. To me, there is nothing more harmful than an unsubstantiated belief, so debating my beliefs with others civilly is one of the best things that a person can do (in my opinion).

Of course, I prefer friends who would sooner tell me my breath stinks than to ignore it hoping it will go away.

The only advice that I would give you, is you both need to improve your debate skills considerably. While you were civil - an very important part of debate - neither of you were actually very persuasive. This is an important skill to develop, especially in a Democracy. While it may not be directly useful to you know now, when you start attending Town Meetings you'll find that the skill was worth developing.

Be happy that you have such a friend! They are few and far between.

Strange Famous

haha, I see!!!!

I dont think the revolution will come from town halls...

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Bodhi

I say she may have been fun to chat with but she's definitely not friend material in the long run if you have nothing in common but similar chat boards. You wouldn't like her if you were around each other physically.