soma

Ok, the title is a bit harsh, but if you continue reading, maybe you will understand where I'm coming from and help me out.

I hang out with a group of guys and all of them are really cool except for this one guy who I never really liked that much*, but I didn't see him very often, so it wasn't a big deal.

Recently, he moved into an apartment a few blocks from my place and he doesn't have anyone else to hang out with (our other friends live kind of far away) so he's always calling/texting to hang out.

Usually, I just tell him I'm busy, but now he's going a step further and asking if he can borrow my stuff, or come over and use my stuff. Since this guy isn't someone I was really fond of before, it's even more annoying that he lives so close and is always contacting me.

What can I do to make it stop?

*This guy has a bit of an inferiority complex and always tries to act like a big shot around us. It's annoying, and sometimes he can bring down the mood of the group with his attitude. It's not very cool.

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EventHorizon

stop replying to his communication. if he brings up the "why don't you answer" say its because you dont like people using your stuff?

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Does Marcellus Wallace have the appearance of a female canine? Then for what reason did you attempt to copulate with him as if he were a female canine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

Anormalguy

No is a word some people need to use more often, and even more people need to learn the meaning of.

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In a society where the individual is not free to pursue the truth...there is neither progress, stability nor security.--Edward R. Murrow

dlish

event horizon is right. ignore that text messages. or if you have to reply, reply only to the questions where he doesnt asks you to borrow something.

eventually the guy will get the message. if you want to be nice and he asks to borrow something, tell him you're using it. if you dont want to be nice, just say no because you dont like people using your stuff because they dont look after it the way you would

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Plan9

...

Be honest with the dude. Give it to him like we gave Japan in 1945.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

monkeysugar

He sounds like he is an acquaintance, not a friend. Just be blunt. Or ignore him. Ignoring him will probably work eventually, most of the time after you're so irritated with the guy that you just end up being really, really blunt.

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I've got the love of my life and a job that I enjoy most of the time. Life is good.

soma

Being blunt is not going to work. This guy has a volatile temper and I don't want to be on the receiving end of one of his fits (he scares me).

So yeah, any advice on him asking me for rides when we hang out with our friends?

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skizziks

if he calls, don't answer. ignore him. i would still tell him to his face "i just don't feel comfortable with you, you scare me."

EventHorizon

well oblige him once or twice but when you do, thinly veil your annoyance that you dont like being his taxi driver and eventually he'll fuck off the way nature intended him to: of his own free will

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Does Marcellus Wallace have the appearance of a female canine? Then for what reason did you attempt to copulate with him as if he were a female canine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

Lindy

Being nice got you into this position. Explaining 'why' just extends the conversation. If it's a text, ignore it. If it's a phone call, just say no. Stop speaking and let the silence hang in the air. If he asks why, say "I have my reasons and I don't need to explain them. Ask somebody else. I've gotta go!" and hang up or disconnect.

Lindy

Fremen

You need a shovel and one of your other friends...

Seriously, you don't need any more shit in your life, any more than what you already deal with (no one does), so why let this asswipe take up any more of your time?
Tell him up front that you don't want him coming over, calling, texting, or asking to borrow your shit.
If he does get physical with you, and you're not certain you can handle it on your own, pre-arrange a friend or two to be there when you tell him, or some kind of authority figure.
If he does try anything, you have him on assault.

/all my advice is internet tough guy advice, so take it with a grain of salt

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high_jinx

this guy sounds like a lot of people i've known who seem to me to know they're crossing the line but like confrontations. it's a nice little trap where you're a tightwad if you blow them off or you're a doormat for caving and they know they got over on you.

in a similar situation i told the same guy that i'd been burned before and so don't loan out my stuff anymore as a policy; that way he couldn't take it personally.

when it comes to replying to texts i don't completely ignore them, but i let them get real stale. i wait a week or week and a half and then reply and tell them how busy i've been and am. the message usually sinks in after 2 or 3 times of waiting that long to hear back.

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-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

telekinetic

Print this out, stuff it down your pants, and start saying 'no' to the things you don't want to do. Don't passive aggressively do him favors and make it obvious you're annoyed and put out and hope he gets the point, just tell him no. Now you're saying you are afraid to tell him no because he has a temper? Even more reason to stay the fuck away.

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twisted no more

Plan9

*Diet Pepsi Nose Ejaculation - GO!*

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

zenda

I've read the above responses. I support the idea that you simply say "No". NOT in a blunt way ... Do be very polite. If you are OK with "I'm very sorry, but 'no' ", then go for that. "I'm sorry, but I Can't" may be better phrasing than "I'm sorry, but I Won't". Saying 'No' from the outset is easier than saying 'Yes' a few times and then going to 'No', so I reckon you're doing the right thing to be thinking this through at this early stage.

Make sure that you do NOT give practical reasons. Stick with "I'm very sorry, but it is just impossible " ... "I'm sorry, but it's not appropriate to discuss it" ... etc. Reasons are simply a way of rendering you 'answerable' to counter-reasons. If you give reasons, you risk being 'understood' as if you had said "I would, except for this reason" The unspoken rule is that if you give a reason for 'no', and the other person gives a good counter-reason, then you should do it or you have been unfair or misleading the other person.


A general frame which could be useful is "I know you as part of a Group of friends. One day, you might become a Personal friend of mine, at which time I might be in a position to consider requests. When I am outside the group, I am a very private person." The 'claim to privacy' can also support an attitude of not giving reasons.

Now, you've mentioned that he has temper fits. Can you discuss these with the other members of your group of friends? Is it his ability to get people frightened which enables him to 'have his own way'? It would be interesting to know if you are the only one in the group who feels the way you do. Is he somebody you feel safe with [at home, or as passenger in your car]? Are you better to limit contact with him to public places or to when at least one other of your group of friends is present?

Those are my initial thoughts on the matter. I'll follow this thread

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ZENDA

Plan9

Wait... totally just dawned on me... Soma?

Soma... brah... just channel those good UsTwo vibes that he left you with before he departed:

New Pussy = New Friend.

Use your flow chart.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

EventHorizon

or mace the dude whenever he's in eyesight for two weeks no matter what the circumstances. then he'll leave you alone and you dont have to worry about his temper because he'll think you always have mace with you

---------- Post added at 12:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 AM ----------

mace windu?

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Does Marcellus Wallace have the appearance of a female canine? Then for what reason did you attempt to copulate with him as if he were a female canine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

Lindy

Thank you, Doctor Pavlov...

soma

@Everyone-telling-me-to-tell-him-straigh-up-NO, his temper and if I deliberately refused to hang out with him, that would be frowned upon by my other friends. Everyone is very accepting and cool, and this wouldn't go over well. and then, there's his temper. I have to be subtle with this guy

@zenda, I like the tip about not giving practical reasons, as he can't squirm his way in or continue contacting me. also, about talking about this with some of my other friends, I'm kind of worried this would be seen as a strike against me for talking bad (no matter how legit) about one of our group of friends. Maybe i'm wrong though, i've never tried.

@Plan9, yea it's me, where did good ol' usTwo go???

update: This past weekend he didn't contact me once, which was a huge drop off from the previous weekend. but he still contacts me, and it's still annoying. so yeah, we'll see where things go with this character.

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zenda

Hi Soma

I'm glad there's been a drop-off last weekend. To what extent is that a result of his game or your game? Had you said something to him last week - you might have 'discouraged' him in ways neither you nor he yet know?


Back to your developing game plan: OK 'not giving reasons' could be one realistic leverage point. Yaaay .
Let's put that in our back pocket, ready for use, and look at the next layer of the onion - we think through this and we'll get to the place where there are no more layers.


Could you tell me how "Accepting and cool" works? Is it a group cultture which has been going on for some time? Is it a more recent perception of yours regarding their responses to him? He does not seem to fit the description of 'accepting and cool'.

Does he do 'demanding and psycho when challenged' ONLY in private and with you?
Does he do it 'in' the group and shock them into submission? You can train a group into submission by playing the good daddy/bad daddy on them = "I'm nice, we're ALL nice. I nicely assert my will and YOU ARE A NASTY SNIT WHO'S SPOKING IT unless we all do this reasonable thing". Just train the individuals one at a time, then, when you are with the group, fire off the 'slightly sharp voice' or the 'flashing eyes' anchor, and each of the other members of the group will not only 'jumop' to 'submission', but will also see the other members as 'complying', and mistakenly think that 'this is the group culture', whereas it is an aligned reaction to a single source - the de facto group leader.

That's one scenario. notice how it is both similar and different to the next one:

There is a group of buddies, they ARE accepting and cool. In fact, that is a consciously held 'group principle'. I was member of a band who pushed the culture 'we are very accepting and cool'. Different members came and went. MYGOD we WERE accepting and cool. Mostly it worked for us, but sometimes against. Our music impressed me in the sheer quantity of ideas which mingled with quality in our playing - we WANTED each other's ideas to 'work with the whole', no matter how unusual=ORIGINAL. As a social group, our culture was actively disparate. Without formally arranging it to be this way, different members would host/decide different social events, so weekends could equally see us BBQing, Seeing oriental acrobats, going on country walk, classical drama etc.

Our acceptingness and coolness was the Prime Directive which we did NOT realise at the time was the strength which made us a Good Group. To begin with, we did not have social structures in place to deal with 'bad apples', or just 'ignorant apples' if they arrived and joined, or, indeed with each other if One suddenly went through a particularly one-sided or needy time. "We're accepting and cool" 'meant' "Anybody can do anything". It took us a while to determine thresholds, lines and boundaries.


Again, I'll note you said:
Oh yes! Don't talk bad. I'm totally with you. And I reckon you can talk about him with your friends, and not only not talk bad, but begin to generate 'strikes FOR you', by talking GOOD about general principles like 'respect', 'mutuallity', 'importance of listening to each other and being sensitive'. NOT 'Iron john' bonding - you don't have to get nekkid and sweaty with water over hot rocks.

If they are open and accepting, then they are just the guys to enjoy chewing the fat about how 'good it is' to be buddies'. Feed in some of those concepts. If you want to get more 'tailor made' in this approach, put aside those qualities I 'guessed', and have your own notion of qualities on the back burner; but ask, in admiring tones, at the same time as encouraging everybody to raise their glasses, "What makes us get along soo well .. I mean we're Cool and Accepting .. yes! .. and What Else? ... Another Toast! .... And? .... ANOTHER toast!"

Heck, Soma, I am overdoing the drama in my writing.

My bottom line points here are: the more conscious a group is of its values which work well and how they work well, the more the individuals are likely to 'self police/moderate' in that 'work well' direction. The more people's difficulties in doing so will come to light, and be subject to 'steering' and 'corrective' responses form others, and not just from you.

You are no longer 'talking bad' about him, rather are you talking 'good' about everyone else, and, at its most specific, will be a case of comparative 'talk-goods' in which his behaviours are no more under jolly scrutiny than those of others.


Looks like the other group members are already writing to THEIR eauivalent of this forum, and that there is a 'group evolution' waitin' to happen. THAT's what I reckon you should push for. Talking bad about one member need not happen, if they are ready to 'wake up' all around him.

IF your perceptions about the group are correct, then your friends are 'putting up with', rather than being 'accepting and coo' with him. My group from time to time did go into that 'mode' ... we wanted to be nice guys, but that made us easy prey until we 'got'=groked=understood-in-our-hears what was going on, and 'decided' over a period of weeks, to defend our right to be cool and accepting ONLY of that which was, in fact, cool and acceptable, and to begin to consciously 'train' our culture to new members, rather than leaving them to 'guess' unspoken rules.


Soma - from what you'd written in your last post, I had enough to 'jump' to indirect angles of management. I've already gone beyond 'brief response', and there are other indirect angles which could be generated and explored, but those become more relevantly buildable after, or within, your feedback as you consider this. Please be particular to pick apart where these ideas might NOT work, because those are the leverage points which remove the next layer of the onion.

Best wishes.

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ZENDA

soma

Zenda,
Ok, I read your whole post a couple times. To answer one of your questions, yeah he can act more negatively towards me in private and put on a good face in front of the group. It can sometimes feel like an abusive relationship almost, which is something I'm finally starting to realize. Because he can put up a convincing enough good face in front of the whole group, I think this makes it more difficult to bring it up with my friends in private. Like if I did, they would be like "why are you saying he's a jerk, he's pretty cool most of the time". Now as I'm writing this, I feel like there are more signs that it is like an abusive relationship. I also fear retaliation from him if he knew that I was talking bad about him with my other friends. I feel kind of trapped.

As far as reforming the group and dropping members goes, we have another guy, that regularly does very rude and stupid things, and we even talk about it as a group, but it would never go as far as never hanging out with him. We're very non-exclusive.

Sometimes, the questionable stuff that is looked over in my group has tempted me to find a new group of friends, but I have horrible social skills and becoming part of a new group would be very difficult for me.

But yeah anyway, this guy has continued to contact me to hang out. I haven't hung out with him for over 2 weeks now, which is good, but he has still been contacting me like 3-5 times per week.

still pretty annoying. heh

Addendum: I've had a lot of shitty friendships in my past, and this is the first time that I'm making a choice to cut back on one before it starts negatively affecting my life. Even though this is hard for me to do, I think it's a good turning point, and will make things better for me.

Addendum #2: I'm house sitting for a mentor of mine at the end of june. That will remove me from my apartment (which is sooooo close to his), for 1.5 months. I think during that time, I won't hang out with him at all. 1.5 months of not seeing him will hopefully cement a lasting social separation between us.

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chinese crested

He is not your friend, he is an acquaintance, nothing more. People do so often mix the words up. Yes the not being able to oblige because of some unspoken committment idea is a very good one. Less is more. The rest of your group - I think you need to stop guessing what they think - you could ask one or some of the group for advice - as you all seem to have noticed the chap has a 'personality disorder' - maybe it wouldnt be out of turn asking advice from friends if you think he is at rist of harming himself. Other than that - just try to behave with good manners - which will be a hard balancing act as you must not seem to be too friendly. Could be he is a bit of a social outcast and is grasping at the lot of you too tightly. Could be he has repeated a mistake in the hope that it will work this time. Stay safe. No mace - or you could find yourself with a whole new circle to fit into.

soma

Yeah, I'll keep my rejections to hang out with him short, that seems to work well.
I don't know about asking the group about him, I fear retaliation, and drama, don't have the time for that heh.
He is a social outcast and is, as you posted, grasping me and my friends too tightly. He's text book needy, and while I don't have a problem with that, he's also an annoying ass hole which I do have a problem with.

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Having Girl Problems?

zenda

Hi Soma

He is grasping you and your friends too tightly? If he is displaying some neediness to each of them, they might be coming, independently, to similar conclusions as you have.

Concerning your first addendum - much respect to you. It is only in recent years that I have been travelling that path. All the best to you

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ZENDA

boink

I think I'd dump the whole group. honestly.

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when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

soma

Ok update. I've been telling him I'm busy like every time he contacts me. He has still been contacting me fairly regularly.

Here are some numbers:

last time we hung out: 4/18/2011
separate occasions where he contacted me to hang out since 4/18/2011: 18
times I have initiated contact with him since 4/18/11: 0

So out of the 18 times he tried getting together with me, I have said I'm busy or whatever, and he's still hitting me up. 18 times! This is not normal!

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EventHorizon

ask him why he's so persistent... then do my little Pavlov treatment

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Does Marcellus Wallace have the appearance of a female canine? Then for what reason did you attempt to copulate with him as if he were a female canine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

chinese crested

Just keep it up suma. It takes time to housetrain a dog doesnt it, and to teach it to stop negative behaviour - you have to be firm and consistent. You never know, the others in your group may be glad he has moved on to you - they may all feel the same. Have you considered they may be tolerating him because you two seem so close?
With true friends. True friends care enough to be brutaly honest with you if they think you are at risk or doing something exceptionaly dumb. True friends dont just nod their heads in agreement - they tell it straight - wrapped up in a little tact and kindness - no need to be too brutal.
If you have a rabbit, may be a good idea to start bringing it indoors.

zenda

^^^^^^^
Hi Soma ... Total agreement with Chinese Crested above.

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ZENDA

monkeysugar

Keep it up! "breaking up" any kind of relationship is never easy, but when the time comes, it is usually for very valid reasons. Friends who are open and chill are great. Friends who go above and beyond accepting everyone despite all of their flaws are great. To an extent. The openness and accepting nature is definitely noteworthy, but in my experience it can get a little bit re-goddamn-diculous. When said flaws are a constant source of drama and lead to an overall toxic friendship/relationship...not so great. Especially when everyone else ignores it because they don't want to harsh on anyone's mellow.

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I've got the love of my life and a job that I enjoy most of the time. Life is good.

chinese crested

You could ask him if he has ever been dumped by his girlfriends and how they did it. Nod your head sagely saying ahhh.

Kookookachoo

I agree with the pavlov treatment. In college a group of us got a guy to eventually sit in the corner of our dorm room in a really uncomfortable chair just by all of us smiling at him when he moved closer to the chair and frowning when he moved away from it. It took some time, but it was a fun game.

Iliftrocks

Yep, this

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bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

robiitis

Ignorance is disrespectful ! If somebody asks you yes/no question - answer it. In this case - It's "No" .
Yes , it will sound and he might be offended for a while, but he will understand.

When I lived in London, my housemate had laptop when I didnt have one. I asked him about if I can use it , he just said "No". I was really pissed of.. Seriously - pissed like Chuck Liddell when Tito Ortiz rejected the fight in middle of UFC season. But after a while I understood that it's fine, he was just honest. And this guy I lived together later told me that he doesn't have anything against me, but he doesn't like that somebody uses his stuff.

If your "friend" will ask about you not wanting to hang out - tell him, that you just don't want to hang out with him. not like he is not nice guy , but you just don't see you guys having something in common.

Remixer

Agreed with most. Be honest about your displeasure. About your group of friends, I believe the following fits: "Being indecisive is usually a decision by itself."

Also: I need to get some tips from chinese crested on how to train my dog. He's 6 months old and the biggest dick.