dalnet22

Branching off from my "to masturbate or not to" thread, I have even more concerning issues to discuss.

I will offer up the argument that most methods of experiencing pleasure and having "fun" are detrimental. Surely, an act can only be detrimental if it deters the actor / actress from achieving his / her goals. If I value life, it would seem detrimental to shoot myself in the brain.

Here are some arguments. You are free to respond however you'd like:

1. Sports are an exploitation of human's competitive nature. Whereas we are built / have evolved to survive, sports are an illusion - a way to trick the body into thinking we are achieving a valuable end. Perhaps in early times sports were of some serious value. Competitors from different, warring communities would fight to the death to see who was the strongest. Today, sport is a waste of human ability because there is no sincere end.

2. Masturbation is an exploitation of the body's drive to procreate. "Horniness" is a signal to find a mate, but it is deterred by relieving one's self. This act wastes much time and money that could be spent on more productive or more social tasks.

3. Watching movies, watching tv, reading fiction - These are exploitations of the human imagination.. the quest to discover new things. Instead of going out and finding treasure (for example), one can easily sit back and watch a movie or read a book about it. It's surely not the same, but it seems a lot less risky to sit in and watch others do it. Instead of making friends, we can sit inside and get to know some day time stars on the television. We can wait for the evening news to come on to get our fix for something new. It's like a simulation of reality. You aren't living your life, you're watching or reading about someone else living theirs. And they're not always real, as seen in fiction.

4. Video games - these blend 1 and 3. Instead of solving dire problems such as figuring out where to hunt for tonight's food or how to sail off a deserted island, humans today have it easier than in the past. It's become very easy to obtain what used to be a challenge. The challenge can now be found in video games, which are merely challenges or ways to exploit the human's desire to succeed and overcome. Instead of learning out to fly a plane, you can play a flight simulator. Instead of making real friends and hiking, you can sign up for an online game and role play with others you'll likely never meet. Once again, these are simulations of reality.

I could go on with other examples. Dancing, making music, playing music, it's all ways of avoiding real challenges.

A real challenge would be curing cancer; reading a book on chemistry to better understand the world around you; or seeking out relationships with people rather than staring at a screen all day.

Opinions? I'm not saying we should necessarily stop all of these "fun" things. I'm merely suggesting that they are exploitations of human functions. Am I wrong?

Bear Cub

I'd give a better explanation, but what fun would that be?

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Charlatan

Pleasurable stimulus is, in my opinion, a good thing. It only becomes a bad thing when one focuses on that pleasure and nothing else.

I think your use of the word exploitation is a bit of a misnomer. Yes, it can be argued that the activities you list above are triggering some innate human instincts but I would also argue that triggering these instincts is a good thing.

The question is why would you deny yourself pleasure? Is it a moral issue? A control issue? What is your particular issue with pleasure?

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dalnet22

If we change and put more value into knowledge, the real fun could be found in learning about science. Why sit around trying to beat Madden 2008 when you could try and figure out a way to help people live less painful lives. Or if anything, why not encourage them to go out and actually play the sport rather than sit around playing a virtual simulation?

Instead of finding it fun to sit around jacking off, put more value into meeting people. Then you might find it less fun to sit around and more fun to find girls.

I'm not talking about taking away fun. The title of my thread is satirical. People seem to label games and laying around as fun; learning and improving the community are labeled work and are not fun.

fresnelly

Do you know any religious leaders who you could talk to about this? The dedicated lifestyle you're talking about is key to all from Buddhism to Zionism.

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ratbastid

You seem to think you've evolved beyond being an animal.

A moment's reflection on your OP should demonstrate that to be false.

Manic_Skafe

What leads you to the conclusion that the tasks you've mentioned are of no real value?

What are you arguing?

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Xerxys

Curing cancer is a real challenge indeed, too bad it's boring. Who wants to sit in the lab all day when I could dream, about Jenna Jameson and substitute her whispering eye for Pam and her twin, Pam??!!

BearCub, I love you man!!!

Dude, you need to have fun because, things that are real challenges consist of real life affecting activities and are undertaken everyday by each and everyone.... raising kids, teaching, keeping a guilty rapist on the street >read "lawyer".

These things dalnet22 are buy no means fun. They affect people in emotional ways only the ones who do it can only understand. What do you think doctors feel when they make a curious and hard to catch diagnosis and cure it??? Now imagine what they feel when they loose a patient!!! See what I mean. REALL challenges can not be fun at all for that reason.

And that is why we pursue other things, religion, sports, sex, book clubs!!! These things mean that we now have a meaning in life. A purpose and that the meaning of life, is to LIVE. If you dont think living is fun, then man, I suggest a shrink from here on by.............

dalnet22

Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly Do you know any religious leaders who you could talk to about this? The dedicated lifestyle you're talking about is key to all from Buddhism to Zionism.

I was wondering about this. Thanks for the suggestion - I'll take a look at some of those.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic_Skafe What leads you to the conclusion that the tasks you've mentioned are of no real value?

Surely, the value depends on what one's goals are. If you are comfortable with watching sports and making them a big part of your life, then that's fine. The concern is that they in themselves are a competition of no real end value aside from being considered the victor of a game. It seems a bit trivial, and I'm one who is an avid sports fan. It's starting to make me wonder if I should support them anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xerxys These things dalnet22 are buy no means fun. They affect people in emotional ways only the ones who do it can only understand. What do you think doctors feel when they make a curious and hard to catch diagnosis and cure it??? Now imagine what they feel when they loose a patient!!! See what I mean. REALL challenges can not be fun at all for that reason.

I can understand what you're saying about it not being fun. Beer, however, is also considered an acquired taste. Many people dislike it at first, but after take the time to appreciate it, they being to tolerate it. Part of this is because they physically get used to the taste; another part is because of the positives attributed to it. It may taste bad, but memories and experiences with friends can make it taste better.

This same idea can be applied to difficult tasks like a doctor saving a patient. I know a surgeon who told me that it always hurts to lose a patient. But he enjoys his job and has learned to accept the losses. Is this much different from adjusting to beer? Obviously, drinking a beer is a bit different from losing a life, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at.

The difficult things can become more fun with some appreciation and a change in values. I used to hate math because it was hard. Today, I love it because of the same reason. What changed is I now understand the benefits of mathematics, and I enjoy the challenge. To say certain things are not fun is not a universal label.

We value the hard work athletes put into obtaining a medal. Why don't we equally value the hard work we could put into improving the world? What's the difference?

dlish

how can you say that sort is an exploitation of human competitive nature?

you bag the person for watching movies or tv, instead of being out there doing stuff. but if you are indeed out there doing stuff like sport for example, its not good enough??

you seem to think that the only way to life a fulfilling life is to learn the ways of the world, cure cancer etc etc...

i find it strange that you dont think sport is fulfilling enough that it actually prevents many diseases and promotes health and well being, which go hand in hand with what medical practitioners encourage. surely the prevention is betetr than the cure


i too can go on with other examples, but i wont. the ideas you put forwad are skewed at best.

is there a reason why you think this way?

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Manic_Skafe

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ngdawg

To some, reading up on chemistry IS fun. Researching a cure for cancer or some other life threatening illness might be fun to some.
I think you are equating "fun" with time wasting and that's not always the case.
Sports is not just a competition exploitation, it's healthy and a mental outlet as well. And through professional sports has been discoveries about how the body works, heals and what it needs to perform. So it's not a waste.
Some may consider masturbation a waste of time, others do it to help medical science re: semen donation . OK, that's a really poor justification, but it happens. But I do know of some for whom it is a mental as well as physical release from stress, so not always a waste of time.
Watching TV may well be a waste of imagination, but reading certainly is not. By reading, we learn. We can learn by watching TV and movies, but not as much. Even Science Fiction has fed the minds of true scientists and through that connection, have developed technologies that might otherwise not have been thought of. Everything has to start somewhere.
I don't know how you would think dance or music are ways of avoiding challenges. Watch a dancer perfect a leap or listen to a child perfect a song. The mental and physical challenge and the results are all stimulating and rewarding. The arts are used extensively in the treatment of many mentally limiting ailments, including Autism, depression, stroke, learning disabilities etc.

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dalnet22

Good post, ngdawg. I certainly do not hold what I said in the OP to be my mantra. I wanted to hear some other opinions, and I like what you said.

Part of my struggle is that I am a musician. I record music, but I feel like aesthetics should be a small portion of my life. I feel like I should be helping the world in a more practical way, such as working as a psychologist in schools. That's why I'm applying to graduate schools for a PhD.

The other part of me knows that I am a very, very good lyricist. If I put all my eggs into the music basket, I think I have a chance at a successful career. But, it's a rather selfish one, where I make a lot of money and spend time not really helping anybody.

I'm going to have to try doing both, I guess. But it almost seems like aesthetics are a colorful release of our abilities. I don't know if our abilities should go 100% into something so relatively trivial. The reason I say 100% is because the top musicians put most if not all of their focus into their music.

Xerxys

Dude TFP has helped me in so many ways so about the becoming a musician thing, >>LINK<<

That thread is about what to pick when faced with a similar question. Look at Bono, he has helped people with music, so yes, become a musician first then help people with the money, ...... or just do drugs and go out with a bang like Curt Cobain (or whoever his name was).

Daniel_

Fun is bad?

I was told that by my vicar as a child.

I decided not to let someone else's imaginary friend dictate whether I have fun, and instead base my sense of what is acceptable on the principle that fun is good, and harm is bad.

As long as my fun doesn't harm anyone else, then fair go to it.

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ngdawg

Go to a school where they specialize in something like Autism and play the piano for an hour. You'll find your path....

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Plan9

You mean: Emo.
-----Added 27/12/2008 at 10 : 43 : 26-----
...and how many moments of our youth do we waste asking questions instead of finding answers?

Can we count them on our fingers?

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Hyacinthe

What's the point in life without beauty?

Would there be a purpose in humanity existing if we didn't have artists, musicians and writers as well as scientists and doctors? The things that they create and do give us hope for our own lives, they enchance our ability to survive and appreciate life not detract from it.

Is Van Goghs life worth less then someone that cures a disease? Technically his works have improved the life of many more by reaching through the medium he has chosen (in this case his paintings) and touching their soul.

You seem to have gone through and assigned arbitrary worth to different aspects of human nature - why is the desire to live valued more then the desire to create? We only study chemistry and cure diseases because we want to live longer or be remembered for a discovery - isn't that therefore an exploit of our desire to live beyond what we physically can do?

You seem to be saying that if it is not directly related to survival then it is not worth the time and effort put into it but what is the point in surviving if you're not going to spend that time doing things that bring you pleasure? Doctors don't take a vow to keep you alive they take a vow to improve the quality of your life.



As for YOUR life - well you will make a terrible shrink if it is not what you want to do with your life ( I have been to enough shrinks over the years to be able to say that with complete honesty) you can't do work of that nature if you feel like you 'have' to do it. You need to want to do it.

What if you are the next Mozart or Beethoven? What if you were the next Chopin? What if you could bring inspiration to do the right thing in life and appreciate the beauty of the world we have been given to live in through your music?

Would your life have meant more in the long term by pursuing what you love and possibly touching thousands if not millions of people or by doing what you feel you should do and pursuing a psychiatric career?

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anti fishstick

i would just say, like with all things in life, that there needs to be a balance. hedonism is good in small doses.

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grumpyolddude

Your premise seems to be that all leisure activity (or "fun"), as well as any vocation devoted toward the enhancement of leisure activities, is a waste of time and effort. That's just wrong.

The human machine needs "down time" to refresh and recharge. Without some distraction from the daily grind, we lose efficiency. Even the strictest of cultures understand this. There have been various forms of entertainment in every recorded civilization. The highest achieving cultures, the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, etc., placed a very high value on art, theater, music and poetry. Even enslaved populations (Hebrews at various stages of their history, the American Black slaves) developed entertainments in order to make their drudgery move bearable. One might deduce that it is a vital part of life.

The old adage "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" isn't just referring to Jack's personality. Jack needs to relax sometime to regain his edge, to stay sharp on the job. We all do. The industries that facilitate this are valuable, and not a waste of time and effort.

There are, and will always be, those that abuse this resource. That is a flaw in the individual, not the culture.

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Lindy

Examine the difference between fun and joy. I find that as I get older (or maybe it's more maturity, not age) that I value joy more than fun. Joy exists on a higher plane. It may be harder to achieve, but is more enduring.

Lindy

Zeraph

Having fun (or being happy, more apt) is the root of life and even evolution. A healthy zebra is a lot happier than the gazelle getting torn apart by lions. Like anything, we have to learn and get better at something. Seeking fun, at first, is detrimental as you'll do it badly, huffing paint for instance. But as you grow and learn seeking fun/happiness leads to more and more rewarding experiences for you and society as a whole.

Xerxys

Huffiing paint, the good ol memories ..........

ASU2003

Maybe you need to figure out what is fun for you. Movies, video games and masturbation might be fun for someone else. I can't understand how people can have fun drinking beer at bars for example. But going to a techno rave, having sex, playing golf, all while traveling and being a tourist sounds like the most fun I could ever have. Yet, other people are bored with or don't like those things. They don't stand to better society at all or make me that much better. And I probably could use my time for better things like volunteering, cleaning up trash, making scientific discoveries, making money, meeting people and making friends,...

thespian86

Buy a cabin far from civilization with a wood stove, fresh water, and somewhere to sleep. Buy an axe, a high powered bow/arrows or gun, shovel, and assorted tools. Buy some clothing that is outdoors friendly; some solid boots, a great jacket, good socks, etc.

Go. Enjoy.

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Acetylene

Grumpyoldguy is very wise on this topic. I have a little more to add in a similar vein.

Humans enjoy the things they enjoy for a reason. You're right that play is a way of experiencing something similar to a real challenge without actually risking anything. This is, therefore, a perfect way to practise and learn.

In all species intelligent enough, play is a valuiable way to gain experience and hone skills without endangering the animal involved. Dogs play tug-of-war to strengthen their jaws and prepare for bringing down prey. Cats pounce on their owners as they walk by, mimicking their surprise-based hunting style. Rabbits "frisk," improving their leaping ability to help them avoid capture. Humans play football to practise pack-hunting dynamics and strengthen their team spirit and bonding skills.

If the first time you have to work on a team is when you are shoved into the work world and have an important project to do, you won't be as effective as if you were a quarterback in high school and know how to help people work well together and utilize their strengths.

We feel pleasure in these safe play activities because they're good for us! The secret is just to maximise your return. For example, instead of playing Doom, try Call of Duty and practise teamwork. Instead of watching Ultimate Bachelor, watch Top Chef (food is a good way of helping others in a very immediate way). Instead of masturbating with a death grip and killing your sensitivity, do it gently and use it as a chance to gain better control of your orgasm so you can make love more easily.

And by the way, aesthetics have inherent value and are worthy of your attention. Music and art make life worth living. They have profound effect on our moods and can save lives. I can't work without music to inspire me and I have the greatest respect and gratitude to the men and women who create it. If I did not have the benefit of the many, many ways in which people make life beautiful (not just music and art, but architecture, gardening, fashion, etc.) then a cure for cancer would be meaningless because I would rather be dead than live in a silent, gray, dead world.

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dalnet22

Good post.

mixedmedia

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madli

Well, this is my first post on this forum - have been mostly lurking through Kramus' account. As I'm procrastinating from my work doing cancer research and treating cancer patients, I couldn't resist this thread topic and thought I'd post for fun. Sorry this is a little long-winded - my tendency to do so is why I haven't posted before.

dalnett22, I think you're confusing activities that have meaning to you, with activities that are "real". I do understand what you're saying and, in my more "observing from the outside" states of mind, have had exactly the same thoughts. Cancer patients often also say this - after a life-threatening illness has awakened them to the preciousness of life, many actually experience what we call post-traumatic growth. They transform their lives, end bad relationships, change jobs - devote themselves to activities that are more meaningful to them.

I suspect you are trying to do the same - figure out what in life is meaningful to you. Activities that don't improve humanity (like masturbation, watching TV, playing video games) aren't meaningful to you because they don't seem to achieve anything real. That's fine and a perfectly valid reason for not engaging in those activities if that bothers you. I remember once jogging past a farmer in the country, and he looked at me and shook his head in a way I knew meant that he was laughing at my pointlessly running up and down the road to expend energy, rather than raking hay. It wasn't a very "real" activity, but I was training for a marathon and it had great meaning for me.

The thing is, if music is your pleasure and your gift, you don't have to think of it as a meaningless activity. Music is a form of communication, as ngdawg said, a form of therapy for many, a benefit and improvement of the human condition for all. From personal experience, I would say that both a career in music and pursuing a PhD take essentially 100% of your time if you want to be successful - both contribute to humanity, both are fun. The only question is which is more meaningful to you.

So with all the great response in this thread, have you been convinced to keep having fun ?

Nisses

1. Sports are a means to keep your body in shape, which in and of itself is a valuable goal, it helps you with your self-image, it helps you with concentration, it staves off disease and slows down aging, there is a social aspect to it as you said, with the whole competition thing as well.

This part of sports has not changed since it's inception, also, in ancient times, they rarely fought to death, what would be the point of that, you lose people in your tribe.


2. Masturbation can be easily used to get the horniness out of one's system, so that more productive or more social tasks can be undertaking instead of spending hours with that on your mind.

3. If you want to be efficient about your living experience, you need to learn from other people's mistakes, other people's advice.
If you just try to do everything yourself, the maximum possible amount of things you can learn, is vastly limited, and will result in alot of people having exactly the same experiences as you. What's the point in that then.

4. Video games can train several things as well, your ability to solve puzzles, your reflexes & reaction time, hand-eye coordination, ...
As well, they allow you to to take your mind off what you have been doing all day, allowing a better processing when you go to sleep, instead of keeping you up in the early hours. Meaning you're better rested and more productive the day after.




There, some other ways of looking at it.

Just because you say something is a *real* challenge and something is not, does not make it so.
Learning how to program correctly is a good challenge, because it's demanding, and will earn you a skill that can make you a living.
Even so, you'll be doing almost only mental work.
Does that make it any less 'real' ?

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