jewels

All the threads lately about unwanted pregnancy, parenting, custody and what's morally right got me to thinking. I wonder if this question wouldn't help all of us to see these issues a little differently. I'm also curious if those that are parents now would see it differently than those that don't plan on children for some time.

Whether you are or not: Let's say you're a happily married parent of at least one daughter. Shortly after she begins her senior year in high school (17ish?), she comes home and tells you she's pregnant.

You've already done all the right things. You taught her to wait for love. Taught her about birth control. Been good, loving parents.

What would you do? Have her quit school and get a job and raise the child? Talk to the boy's parents? Take her for an abortion? Tell her to have the baby, you'll raise it. Or tell her she needs to decide on her future?

Writing this, I'm struggling with my own response. My 24-year old, thankfully, is not pregnant and although she's with a guy and on a good career path, of no concern in this regard. I have two teen girls at home and although they still think penises are gross (thank Gawd!) I know this will change and know that no matter what they're taught, they will make some unwise decisions in their lifetime and a parent should always be armed.

I tend to think that I'd try to make a decision with her. Talk it out. Hear her feelings and fears, and what she thinks would be right for her. Let her know that I will be there for emotional support whether she opted to have the baby or not, but if she intended to stay in my home with a baby the responsibility and financial burden would be between her and the father.

I'm not sure if that's a weak response, but I'm not totally sure I've weighed everything. I'd be really interested to hear what you guys would do in this scenario.

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vanblah

Well, my daughter is only 6 so it's rather hard for me to speculate. It would really depend on HER personality. I can sit here and spout lofty ideals all day long but in the end it really doesn't do any good.

Is she promiscuous? Is she an other-wise non-promiscuous kid who had an accident? Is she the kind of kid who maybe did this out of spite? It's been known to happen. These are all factors in the way I would deal with this situation; there are myriad other factors as well.

I could only hope to help her make a decision that is best for her based on the kind of person she is. I would hope that I had done a good enough job raising her that she understands the consequences and is able to assume some amount of personal responsibility. I would hope that she is attracted to men who have at least equal understanding of those consequences and responsibility. Understanding and accepting responsibility is certainly not a preventative--especially when hormones are involved. I remember those days all too well.

The point is, there is rarely--if ever--a single answer that will fit all scenarios. There's no way to predict the future; there's no way to tell what a child will be like when he or she grows up. You can only guide them along a path that will hopefully be a good one. So there's no way to tell how you can or should or even will react in this situation.

Willravel

"Honey I love you but you did this before you were ready. I'm very disappointed in you.", would be the only thing I'd say that was negative to her. From there on I'd do everything in my power to make sure that my daughter and grandchild were cared for. Assuming she was still in school, I'd ask that she go to school part time and we'd make arrangements about baby-sitting (I'd LOVE to babysit my grandchild).

The unlucky young man who knocked up daddy's little girl would be a slightly different story. I'd speak to him with his parents, and it would not be a comfortable discussion. He will be monitored very closely by me personally to make sure that he gets perfect grades AND is going to go to college full time and get a part time job. Even if he somehow lives up to my demands, it'd take years before he earned my trust.

If he tries to leave her, there will be problems.

vanblah

So, just because he's the guy he's going to get the brunt of your displeasure? Sounds like a double-standard to me; and you'll be setting up a horrible situation for the new parents. Unless he forced her to have sex unprotected then he didn't "knock up daddy's little girl"--they did it together and thus should be treated equally.

It might be a better situation if HE DOES leave her ... sometimes two people should just not be together even AFTER they have kids.

Life is not black and white.

Hain

I'd like to see what kinda solution a sorta licensed troubleshooter would invoke.

I am 21, not thinking about a family, so not even thinking about kids and someone higher up ought to prevent me from ever having children. Given the descriptions my father told me of his childhood, the things I heard about my older brother, how my childhood "experiments" were jacked-up versions of his, my lil' bundles of hell would probably set the Earth on fire from their sandbox with stolen parts and tools from my garage.

I have to agree with Will, though. _[Insert Deity]_ forbid I have daughter, and she became pregnant as a teen, I'd be disappointed, and I'd let her know. After that I would do everything to see that she makes decisions she can live with, and I wouldn't mind help raising a grandchild, having already survived what was to be Armageddon with her childhood, I could then watch this lil' bundle of hell with diapers assemble the for-sure Doomsday device in his/her sandbox.

Not so sure about the boy... Definitely disappointed with him... Have a talk with the parents too [see where we went wrong].

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Jinn

I'd give her the option of either (a) getting an abortion or (b) moving out.

The way I see it, she'll be thanking me in two years.

Because in two years:

(a) She aborted a bunch of cells she didn't really want from a guy she won't like in two years, went on to college and is living a normal, college girl's life, dating normally.

or

(b) She is two years down the road, having kept a baby she didn't want with a guy she didn't like, forced into minimum-wage slave labor hell of a life so she can support the crying eat n' poop machine. She'd commit suicide if she didn't have a kid to take care of.

Why would you ever choose (b)? Because some idiot thinks a bunch of cells is worth saving? I think not. If she wants to choose (b) because she thinks by some deviation of logic that this fertilized clump of suck is actually a 'human life', then there's no way I'm going to financially support another idiot. The US already has enough. Besides, I wouldn't raise a child to be so stupid. Choice (a) should be pretty obvious to her by the time she's 17.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

You understand that "knock up daddy's little girl" means that he got my daughter pregnant, right? And as such, that's exactly what he did in the scenario in the OP?

And no, I'm not going to treat them equally. It's my prerogative to be overprotective of the young woman who I have raised since she was an infant. They will both be going to school and they will both have a stern talking to. The only difference is that SHE WILL BE PREGNANT. Welcome to a biologically implemented double standard that everyone keeps telling me about in the other thread. She's going to have morning sickness, mood swings due to hormonal imbalances, she'll inflate and suddenly find herself a lot heavier, etc. He won't. In other words, for the first 9 months, she won't need me riding her other than to make sure she's safe, prepared, and still going to school. The young man, on the other hand, is not pregnant. This is when I have to make sure that he will be able to provide for her. This means that he busts his ass in school, gets plenty of "responsibility" themed talks from me, and finds a job.
That's true, but it's not as easy as "he's not up to the job" so he can just leave. He'll end up under my thumb one way or another because that's just how I operate. This is the one area in life when Willravel stops being fair or whatever.

If you fuck my daughter, get her pregnant, and try to leave, expect me to do something about it. You WILL pay child support, which means you WILL have a job. You WILL be in the child's life. If you're not mature enough for that, then you will be doing a lot of maturing because I said so.

Outside of this specific scenario, I am a pretty calm, kind, fair guy, but this is a serious situation and I won't be walking on eggshells.

Jinn

Things might be nice in your fantasy world where you can actually control another person, but in the real world, this is harassment at the very least.

He has parents too, and I don't think they'd be too pleased with you telling their spawn what to do or not to do. Furthermore, you can't force another individual to do what you want in the way you seem to imply without breaking many laws. I'd file a restraining order on you as soon as I turned 18, or have my parents do it in my stead. I'd also tell you to take a flying leap off a cliff, because if you talked to me again after that point the police would be on the way.

The ONLY thing that can be forced upon this kid is child support, and only a COURT OF LAW can enforce such a thing. Luckily for him, you being "mad" or whatever you want to call it actually translates to diddly squat in terms of reality.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

vanblah

To anyone saying that they would be disappointed in their daughter or the boy--think really hard about this for a moment: are you disappointed with the person or the situation?

To be disappointed in a person implies that their actions were caused by a certain level of maliciousness (ie. "you know better but you did it anyway"). But we all know that there is no form of birth control that is 100% effective (besides surgical means).

Teenagers are going to have sex ... we all know it. There is no stopping it. Birth control fails.

I'm familiar with what the phrase "knocked up" means. In this (hopefully) hypothetical situation he didn't GET your daughter pregnant. Unless he forced her, they did it together. Period (or lack thereof).

Willravel

Both. My safe sex practices are the stuff of legend. It's reasonable, thus, to presume that I would be getting the pill with my daughter when she was 16-17 and teaching her all about the many forms of birth control and contraceptives, because I'm aware that like her old man she may very well be sexually active when she's young. She will be armed with knowledge at a young age. One would hope that this would make the unexpected pregnancy unlikely, but to be honest there are times when young people are caught up in the moment and forget to do what they should be doing. They behave in an irresponsible manner. As such, I'm sure I'd have every right to be disappointed with my daughter (and obviously the boy, though he may not have had such vigilant parents). I can be disappointed in her for letting herself forget all that I and her mother had carefully taught her.
The failure rates of compound birth control are nearly astronomical. If you combine pill, condom, and spermicide, your chances of getting pregnant drop off to an area close to 1/60,000 (according to my doctor). Those are the same odds that I've gambled with since I was 13, and I've never gotten someone pregnant that I didn't intend.
He put his penis in my daughter's vagina and ejaculated, releasing sperm that fertilized her egg. He knocked her up. It has nothing to do with "GET"ting someone pregnant, and I'm not even sure what that means.

Infinite_Loser

She's moving out and getting a job. Oh... And the guy is going to marry her or I'll shoot him. Simple

Statistics say she's likely to make the same mistake again and have another abortion, FYI.

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Jinn

Neither I nor my spawn have ever or will ever fall into the statistical cess pool of mediocre idiots known as "the majority of the World."

What statistics, by the way? Care to provide a source?

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

Infinite_Loser

Last I saw it was 48%, but 47% is close enough.

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Willravel

Still, bear in mind that the statistic I liked above is from a pro-life website. I'm not 100% sure about the number's reliability.

vanblah

But that is the word you used:

(Bold and caps are mine).

You consistently ignore the fact that it takes two. It doesn't matter how much you prepare your daughter; it doesn't matter how much you teach her. The fact is, unless you know with absolute certainty that she GOT pregnant on purpose ... you should NOT be disappointed with HER. Be disappointed with the situation ... but not the person.

You can quote statistics all you want, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen--even to you or your daughter. Just because you aren't a statistic (in this matter) doesn't mean that your daughter will be so lucky.

Willravel

1/60,000 means that statistically she either hit the jackpot or (more likely) she didn't do what she was supposed to. I have every right to be disappointed if my daughters acts in an irresponsible manner.
1/60,000. You're more likely to be killed by a tsunami or a bee sting. It's literally actually close to the odds of being struck by lightning and dying as a result.

It's not even close to being likely. What is infinitely more likely is that they had sex without protection.

Plan9

Like that nuclear missile don't-launch line used at silos everywhere during the Cold War:

"Abort - abort - abort!"

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Ustwo

Jinn sometimes I forget how young you are, and then you remind me.

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Jinn

Better than being infantile? I can pee farther than you...

If you care to elaborate on how my youth is showing I'd be pleased to hear.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

I usually take it as "I disagree with you, but I don't feel like saying why".

Plan9

Yeah, ya POO-POO FACE!

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Jinn

Thank you for acknowledging this will. I thought it was suspect myself, so I did a bit of searching.

It appears they removed part of the sentence for effect. It changes the meaning considerably, in my opinion.

"Abortion No" said this:
They claim this statistic is taken from "pro-abortion sites, like the Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood's Family Planning Perspectives."

The AGI said:

For clarification, I went to the original source. AGI took this statistic from Jones RK, Darroch JE and Henshaw SK, Patterns in the socioeconomic characteristics of women obtaining abortions in 2000–2001, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2002, 34(5):226–235..

which said:

So there we have it. You can make it seem epidemic by saying that 47% of abortions are performed on women who had a previous one by omitting the rest of the sentence.
47% seems like a lot until you consider all of the factors. Only 2 out of every 100 women has an abortion, which means that less than 1% of women will have more than one abortion. Even more, of those 47%, 36% have had a child AND an abortion, meaning they're not just aborting and aborting like No Abortion suggests.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

PonyPotato

Considering how hardened I've become to my little sister's screw ups, I'm pretty positive I'd give her the options of a) an abortion, b) giving the child up for adoption, or c) moving out and doing it on her own.

One of my good friends had an unexpected pregnancy in her first year of college, and she decided to keep the baby. She and the guy broke up (he was/is abusive), and she stayed in school. Guess who takes care of her kid, even now when she's out of school with a good job? Her parents still have her little girl because she still doesn't want to take full responsibility for her. I never want to find myself in a situation like that.

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RangerJoe

Other than ghoastgirl, it doesn't sound like any of you have been through anything even similar to this. We all know how we would WANT to act, but when it actually happens, more than likely we will all act differently.

I was 16 when I got pregnant with my son. It was stupidity on my part - the guy and I didn't have anything even resembling a relationship. I also never told my mom I was sexually active. I had sex only one time before, why embarrass myself? When I finally did tell my mom, she freaked out, literally. Screaming and yelling, throwing shit, threats. She was pissed. A day later, my mom, my sister, and I all sat down at the dining room table and discussed what we would do. She told me my options - adoption, abortion, giving her the child until I was ready and prepared to raise it, or keeping him for myself. All in all it was my choice.
Obviously, I chose to keep him. I went to school and worked full time, but eventually I was doing too much. I dropped out of school my senior year because I was failing two classes I needed to graduate due to absences. So, I went to working full time. Never did graduate.

I don't think I'm doing so bad now, and my mom definitely makes sure that I'm taking care of my son. I would hope if I ever have a daughter (or even if the situation happens with my son) and she tells me she is pregnant, that I would react the same way as my mom did. List the options, explain the options, and then leave the decision up to her. After all, it IS her life. As long as I give her the information that is needed, I can only assume she would make the decision that would be best for her.

Punk.of.Ages

If she's old enough to get pregnant, she's old enough to make her own choices. I would give her support in whatever she decided she wanted to do. Period.

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"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

World's King

Find the nearest flight of stairs...



Okay, I'm kidding of course.

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Willravel

Women can get pregnant before they're 13 sometimes. So I have to disagree with this statement being a blanket statement. I would agree if she was 17+, though.

vanblah

Out of curiosity, are you talking about giving your sister these options or are you talking about a future daughter?

That may seem like the answer but the thing is, when you give a person (especially a teenager) ultimatums like these then you run the risk of exacerbating the problem. If the teenager wants to keep the child then they will move out and then the situation really gets bad.

Think about the last time someone gave you an ultimatum. Teenagers are not known for their cool-headedness during stressful times.

You can talk all you want about how "it's your house and, therefore, your rules" (I'm not saying that Jinnkai is implying this statement) but the fact is it is a human being you are dealing with-- a fairly mature human being with her own thoughts and ideas. This is not a six-year-old.This is a human being that you have been responsible for for many years. A human being in which you have a considerable amount of emotional, mental, and financial investment.

Say your daughter wants to really keep the baby and the guy with whom she conceived doesn't want to marry her or take care of her (beyond legal responsibilities). Are you really, really going to kick her out and run the risk of producing yet another low-income mom with a child that has no hope for the future?

Have we really produced a society that is so selfish that it would turn its back on its own flesh and blood? It doesn't really take much to help someone out in this situation. Raising a child (even a grand child) is not that difficult.

And yes, abortion may be the correct answer, but you can't force it upon someone. You may be able to exercise your parental rights if the daughter is young enough; but if she really wants to keep the baby then you're just going to ruin your relationship.

Isn't there a story in the news right now about a 10-year-old girl giving birth?

Yep, and even some 17-year-olds may be emotionally incapable of making a good decision without guidance. All of these scenarios really depend on the kind of girl your daughter turns out to be. Nothing is certain so you can't say with any certainty how you'd react.

Ustwo

More like taking the time.

Jinn my boy, obviously you are going through your radical stage, its all over your posts lately. You most likely don't know any women who had children at an early age and are glad they didn't abort because you are hanging out with self centered adult children who haven't really 'grown up' yet.

Being a 'normal' college girl, isn't all what its cracked up to be once you step away from the university and enter the real world.

So while you so arrogantly decide of course abortion is the best route, I mean a kid would crimp her style after all, know that there are many who are glad they didn't take that route, and one I know personally who wishes she didn't.

I don't hold it against you, you can't really understand it yet.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Punk.of.Ages

Before 13... that would probably warrant an abortion.

If it's in the 15-17 range, "Guess what honey... you get to become an adult early."

She made an adult decision getting pregnant. Now she gets to make another adult decision (keep it or not). Should she decide to keep it, many more adult decisions will follow.

Of course I will support her and advise her through it, but ultimately it will be better for her if I let her figure it out.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Infinite_Loser

Yes, less than 1% of the population will have more than one abortion but it's important to note that only 2% of the population will have an abortion. .95 out of 100 isn't worth noting, but .95 of 2 is a substantial number. Anyway, you seem to ignore the fact that the 36% is part of the 47%, meaning that 11% of the people who had one abortion will have another one and no children while the other 36% will have at least one other abortion and one child. That doesn't change the fact that people who have one abortion are likely to have another one nor does it change the fact that they are more likely to have another abortion than people who have never had an abortion are to have one. Seriously. No one mentioned anything about aborting children with reckless regard, so I don't know why you bother bringing that up. The original statement was that people who have one abortion are likely to have another one. Not really sure how/why you bother arguing against that, but meh.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Plan9

Uh... subject matter expert?

How about her cramping the kid's style with a mediocre-to-shitty life prospect? Nom nom nom! Mmmm, a potential life of food stamps and minimum wage jobs rocks my socks.

...

My not-a-genius point: Women can almost always make another kid. Other people will have unwanted kids even if said woman can't and that gives you a chance to adopt if you really want a brat of your own. Let us not populate the world with human mistakes, the product of bad judgment, when we have the technology to remedy the situation. Let's not encourage people to throw away their currently evolving life for one that hasn't even stared yet because they fear the Old 'n Holy Jesus-Fetus. It's for the Greater Good in the Hood.

Fetus: ITZ A MARACLE.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

jewels

/insert ustwo quote/

Jinn doesn't need defending, but I don't understand why you're attempting to belittle his opinions as though your life's experience has given you such great wisdom.

I'm far from his age, but I still hold the same beliefs I did when I was his age, which are pretty close to his. Age has nothing to do with it. Personally, I would prefer my daughter have an abortion if she did become pregnant at 17. The only difference is that I would respect her wishes.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Jinn

Thank you for taking the time to explain how you arrived at your conclusion Ustwo.

After reading this, you're right. I wouldn't kick her out but god would I hate myself for it. We are talking about hypothetical situations here, so it makes two things evident; (1) you can't really talk directly about what you'd do unless you already have a daughter this age, because your feelings toward your own spawn would certainly influence it and (2) you can't really know that this would ever happen. I'd love to believe that I would raise a child who was careful enough, and if not, as adamantly pro-choice that this wouldn't ever become an issue.

So in light of that, I stand by what I said. I can only address what I'd want to do, not what I will do. It's hypothetical.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

I respect the fact that you are willing to admit that you have such a familiarity with being a normal college girl. Was it a cross-dressing thing, or was there an operation involved?

Or maybe you can't admit that
It's okay to admit you don't have the answers to everything, even if it's admitting that you've never been a college girl.

Ustwo

Have you heard of another term....

I think its adoption?

Yes thats it.

I'll add that the problem with Jinn wasn't that he advocated abortion, but that it was he thinks its have a meaningless abortion, and that any other option is stupid.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

I'll give you this, but you have to take down your avatar. Bestiality is against TFP rules.

Plan9

*glues on fake mustache, knocks on door*

Hey, I'm here for the abortion circle jerk!

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

jewels

Let's not do the choice battle here, okay? The point is that you can't say you're wiser because that would be your CHOICE. You're attempting to force your CHOICE down someone else's throat.

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain