Child Custody Hell - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Skutch · 01-30-2008, 08:19 PM

So last summer, my 2 kids (8 and 10) and I went to the store to get a few groceries. My daughter (10) asked if she could get a drinks bottle for her soccer games. I already had 2 of them at home, so I said no. She started to get angry and said to me: you always get (my son) whatever he wants, you like him better than me. She proceeded to start crying and sat on the floor of the store refusing to get up. I told her in a steady voice to get up now. Reluctantly she did, and we proceeded to leave the store directly...I just left the cart there in the aisle I was so pissed, and we walked out.

We get in the car, and drive a few miles in silence. I then started shouting (loudly) at both kids, saying they're spoiled, that I'm the parent and they're the children, and that they should follow my rules and respect me and not vice versa. My daughter had stopped crying and was clearly frightened, my son as well.

Fast forward one week. I'm walking out of my house to the sight of my ex-wife approaching me up the walk with a court order in her hand. She hands it to me in silence, gets in her car and drives away.

It was an emergency motion to temporarily suspend my visitation rights with my daughter (not my son). So, for the past 7 months, Ive been seeing my daughter according to the schedule: once a week for a few hours, and one overnight a month, where before it was 2x a week and every other weekend.

Now I'm not saying that shouting is the best method of disciplining, I've learned this. I have never hit either of my kids, not once. I don't drink, smoke, drugs, nothing. I ask my daughter when I see her when I go pick up my son if she is afraid of me...no. I ask her if she would like to spend a few nights at my house, yes. She cries and says she misses me. She has built up very good friendships with the kids in my neighborhod, they do things together all the time, year round. I take them to activities, funtions, birthday parties, they have sleepovers at my place, I cook for them, etc. We've been to a social worker who has seen us interact and has commented on the lack of fear my daughter seems to show towards me.

Last night, my ex filed a motion for a permanent change in the visitation schedule. I would see my daughter 4x a month for a few hours, and 1 overnight a month.

My ex has a boyfriend of 3 years. He comes and goes, and doesn't seem to want to marry my ex. Why buy the milk, perhaps. He doesn't buy the kids clothes or fix stuff around her house. Whatever. He pays much attention to my daughter, coaches her in soccer, and they seem to have a decent relationship. I'm sure my ex encourages the relationship, as she despises me.

Anyone in the house have any thoughts, comments, opinions on the matter? Thanks for reading.

RangerJoe · 01-30-2008, 08:53 PM

It sounds to me like you should fight it. You had a bad moment, so what? I'm sure your ex has had them two. If she has no evidence of any kind of abuse or neglect and your daughter WANTS to go back to the old schedule, then the judge really has no reason to grant the permanent change. But, you have to fight it for it NOT to get changed. If you do nothing, the nothing happens. Things stay the same. Prove to the judge and your daughter that you want to see her more again.

Tully Mars · 01-30-2008, 08:59 PM

Granted I don't know the whole situation but it sure sounds to me like your Ex is trying to punish you via the daughter.

I'd fight it, calmly, as much as I possibly could.

Do you have an attorney? What State? How involved is the social worker?

Skutch · 01-30-2008, 10:01 PM

She has no evidence of abuse or neglect because I'm not abusive or neglectful (yeah I know thats just words). I guess if yelling is considered abuse nowadays then so be it. (And I hardly ever raise my voice to them, period.) She told her mom and her teachers at school about it, and how I'm a bad person. My daughter apparently got so upset last summer one day when I was coming to pick both kids up (a few days after the incident) that the camp/school called child protective services. My daughter told the social worker that she (daughter) thought I needed to be punished for yelling at her, and that I deserved not to see her because of it.

Yes, I have a lawyer. I'm in the process of getting another lawyer because the first one hasn't been aggressive enough in my opinion. My ex and I agreed (with our lawyers present) for a social worker to evaluate the situation, but I just found out yesterday that the social worker is unable to provide legal material (her notes and observations) to the court, and my lawyer knew this (he recommened it), so I have no impartial evidence to bring before the judge. 5 months down the drain, plus legal expenses.

I'm not too impressed with the social worker. Her thing is that she's there to help my daughter period, and wants to hear nothing about the backstory. Fine, but wouldn't one think it important to understand some of the history that led up to all this, and indeed, is perpetuating it? They play these self-esteem card games where they're supposed to get my daughter expressing her feelings and emotions. I asked her if going to the social worker makes her feel any better and she said no.

I'm thinking about getting a private detective to check out the boyfriend.

jewels · 01-31-2008, 01:48 AM

You absolutely must get an attorney. Now.

You did nothing wrong. She's playing on your fear of losing them. It seems she knows which buttons to push and it seems that you're daughter's picking up on that.

She would have to prove you're unfit in order to reduce your custodial time. You're not, she's got nothing. If the GM or Judge interviews your kids, the truth will come out. Don't feel guilty for raising your voice.

The_Jazz · 01-31-2008, 06:20 AM

Skutch, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to give you both barrels full of honestly.

You were abusive. Were you physically abusive? No. Were you verbally abusive? Oh, hell yeah. Your daughter pitched a temper tantrum in the middle of a store, and you seem to have handled that pretty well. Maybe you caved by leaving the store, but that's more of a relationship thing between the two of you than anything else and isn't all that important.

The fact that you got in the car, drove a few miles and then exploded is what I'm talking about, though. That's verbal abuse. You admitted that you scared BOTH kids. That, in my opinion, is where everything went wrong for you.

Now if this is an isolated incident, that's one thing. However, I get the feeling that it wasn't. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but it seems to me that there's a concern that you're a powder keg waiting to explode. If you're not, then you need to convince everyone that you're not. If you are, then you probably need to accept the fact that you need help. You may even want to consider getting help even if you don't think you have a problem so that you can be seen as recognizing the issue and being proactive. If you can get an expert to say that you don't have anger issues, it makes your case that much stronger.

A good attorney would tell you pretty much the same. Go find one.

Redlemon · 01-31-2008, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

You were abusive. Were you physically abusive? No. Were you verbally abusive? Oh, hell yeah...
Now if this is an isolated incident, that's one thing. However, I get the feeling that it wasn't. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but it seems to me that there's a concern that you're a powder keg waiting to explode.

When I read a relationship question thread, I always try to figure out what the other side would say before I answer the question. I was wondering the same thing that The_Jazz was. And further, I wonder: why is she your ex? Did she fear your temper?

jewels · 01-31-2008, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

You admitted that you scared BOTH kids. That, in my opinion, is where everything went wrong for you.

Raising your voice is not abusive. Just because a child may not have seen someone exercising authority or even anger and it scares them doesn't make it wrong. Sure, it'd be great if we were all perfect, no one lost their cool and we never had to raise our voices, but sometimes it happens. And it's not abuse.

Tully Mars · 01-31-2008, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewels443

Raising your voice is not abusive. Just because a child may not have seen someone exercising authority or even anger and it scares them doesn't make it wrong. Sure, it'd be great if we were all perfect, no one lost their cool and we never had to raise our voices, but sometimes it happens. And it's not abuse.

Hate to disagree with you here but... yelling at a child is emotional abuse. The State I worked in, Oregon, would have interviewed the child do determine what was conveyed in the "rant." They'd want to know the level of emotional abuse. Once they made a determination of that they'd decide what steps to take next. Likely some anger management course and some parenting class.

I find it interesting the Ex didn't move to restrict any visitation with the other child involved. Makes me think she's playing games to at least some degree.

Again don't know all the facts so can't say.

The_Jazz · 01-31-2008, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewels443

Raising your voice is not abusive. Just because a child may not have seen someone exercising authority or even anger and it scares them doesn't make it wrong. Sure, it'd be great if we were all perfect, no one lost their cool and we never had to raise our voices, but sometimes it happens. And it's not abuse.

I agree that raising your voice is not abusive. And just because they were scared doesn't make it abuse either.

Having both kids in the car being quiet for several minutes then exploding into a tirade is not the above, though. Skutch did the right thing originally and handled the situation quite well. Once everything was under control, however, he exploded with no provocation. THAT'S the abusive situation. There was no provocation for it - the tantrum was over and everyone was quiet. He caused the second problem, not his daughter. She wasn't the cause of his rage, just the focus.

Skutch - I sincerely hope that this was just an isolated incident. We all have moments where we just have too much on our plate and snap. It happens to the best of us, as jewels implied. It doesn't make you a bad person, just human - if it's an isolated incident. You know much better than any of us whether it is or isn't. Like I said, I'd love for you to tell us that it is, but you at least need to pause for a moment of self-criticism to ponder whether or not you have an anger issue. The incident you described could have come out of a textbook describing rage issues.

jewels · 01-31-2008, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Skutch - I sincerely hope that this was just an isolated incident. We all have moments where we just have too much on our plate and snap. It happens to the best of us, as jewels implied. It doesn't make you a bad person, just human - if it's an isolated incident. You know much better than any of us whether it is or isn't. Like I said, I'd love for you to tell us that it is, but you at least need to pause for a moment of self-criticism to ponder whether or not you have an anger issue. The incident you described could have come out of a textbook describing rage issues.

Exactly. You must be brutally honest with yourself. Remember, do what's right for the kids and not you, nor your Ex.

Skutch · 01-31-2008, 08:56 AM

Well I can say that the conversation continued in the car after we left the store, and it went along the lines of "Dad, you love (my son) more than me, thats why you wouldn't buy me the water bottle in the store." This has been an ongoing theme with her, that pains me to hear her say. The ex and I are very contentious, and there is much passive-aggressive behavior on both our parts I will admit. For example, she has at times notified me of committments the kids have (on my visitation days) either the same day of the committment or a day before, which pisses me off to no end, I don't like surprises, and I don't like to have to change my plans at the last minute. She has sent her boyfriend to school to pickup the kids on my visitation days, which once resulted in him aggressively getting in my face, at school, in front of the kids, and my daughter seeing this and screaming in anticipation of a fight. I told the ex that if he ever does that again, and in front of the kids - I would call the police on him. She calls my house when I have the kids and asks to speak with them. Maybe what I do passive aggresively is to have the kids call back not when she calls, but after our day together is over, usually right before bedtime. but I don't think it is fair for her to always call them on my visitation days. I don't do that to her.

As far as the anger issues, its a fair question. Like I said, I do not hit my kids. I rarely raise my voice to them. There have been maybe 3-4 times in 10 years when I raised my voice to them to the most extreme and angriest level, ie., totally pissed off, gloves off, SCREAMING. I think most parents understand what I'm talking about here. And it was typically in response to my daughters rebelliousness, or when she is otherwise misbehaving. The social worker has pointed out how frightened my screaming makes my daughter, and I will take this into consideration from now on. She is a high-strung, nervous-ish girl to begin with, so I will try to restrain myself in the future, but in no way is it like I am constantly screaming at her, I am the quiet, laid back one with her...my parents say that her mom screams at her a lot, that they've seen her "rip her a new asshole" in front of them. She is authoritarian in her parenting style.

A bit of backstory to the original story was that before we went to the store, I had to struggle to even get my daughter to come with us to the store. She said she didn't want to go - she wanted to play with her friends. I told her fine, you can have one more hour, but after that I want you to go with us without a fight. She said fine. When the time came for us to go, she started whining, dragging her feet, and saying she didn't want to go. So the situation heading to the store was charged to begin with.

So today I go to see the new lawyer, a woman. Specializes in family law, Notre Dame law degree, from a good, old firm. I am hoping that she will advise me more aggressively than has my last lawyer, a guy who Ive had since the divorce. My ex and her lawyer (a former state prosecutor from Brooklyn) have drawn this out without a response from my lawyer...he just let them have their way. I think that both a mother and a father should be able to see their kids after a divorce. Perhaps reading this thread could be used as birth control for some. :/

Infinite_Loser · 01-31-2008, 10:53 AM

My parents yelled at me ALL the time when I was young. Don't see how that could be labeled as 'verbal abuse' lol

RangerJoe · 01-31-2008, 11:11 AM

No offense, but it does seem like you favor your son, especially in your last post. Maybe you should have an alone day or two with just your daughter. Go go karting or fishing or something. Spend some quality time together and just talk. Also, I don't think it should be a problem for your ex to call your kids while they are with you. Granted, it is YOUR time and she shouldn't be calling while your out and about doing stuff, but she DOES have them all of the time. Maybe talk to her and request that she does wait to call until bedtime.

Anyways, it sounds like it's a good thing you got a new lawyer.

cyklone · 01-31-2008, 04:57 PM

Your daughter is 10. Surely she has an opinion in this. Is your wife just firing your daughter's bullets? If your daughter at 10 really wanted to see you, why is she not advocating for custody on your behalf?

jewels · 01-31-2008, 05:13 PM

Please. 10 is way too young whether she's menstruating or not.

At that age, kids wants the parent that spends more money on them and gives them less responsibility. They're also easily influenced by both parties on emotional issues.

If you've got kids, don't ask them who they would choose. Ask someone else that has equal ties to you and your spouse.

Skutch · 01-31-2008, 06:42 PM

I set aside a father-daughter day a few weeks ago actually and took my daughter downtown to the St. Petersburg Ballet Theater, which was simply awesome in every way possible. The dancing was magic, and the ambiance inside the small theater was stimulating. We both had a good time. The thing about kids that age is that, in my observation, the son naturally gravitates to the dad, and the daughter gravitates to the mom. My son always whines and grumbles when his mom comes to pick him up, and my daughter is the same when she has to leave mom.

And I have to agree with jewels443 that young children are susceptible to the moods and whims of their parents. I remember picking my kids up on the way to taking them to Toronto for the weekend, and my daughter was like, Mom's crying, she says she's going to miss me, I don't want to leave her alone...Dad do I have to go to Toronto, I don't want to go, I don't want to leave Mom.

Funny you should mention fishing because over the summer, I took both kids fishing and my daughter almost went into apoplectic shock when we hooked a fish. She's sensitive about animals (she won't eat hamburgers because she knows they were once cows) and literally started crying when we landed the fish. After she saw that we unhooked it and set it free, she went and sat in the car for the remainder of the time, reading. Which is fine with me, I won't ask her to go fishing anymore, and I don't hold her love of animals against her at all (we have 2 cats).

Skutch · 02-06-2008, 02:58 PM

I won back my full visitation rights in court today. My lawyer mopped the floor with the two of them. I've learned much from this.

savmesom11 · 02-06-2008, 04:22 PM

I am a social worker and in my opinion you have done nothing that is illegal or damaging to your child. Your daughter is at an age where the judge will allow her to make decisions that affect her. So if she misses you and wants to spend time with you the judge will try to arrange for that as long as the children are not in danger, which it does not seem they are. You unfortunately will accrue some legal costs in this situation because you are going to have to hire a lawyer to ensure that you do not lose any more of your custody. I am unsure of what part of the country you live in but most states have fathers advocate groups that can help steer you in the right direction or perhaps find a pro bono lawyer who can assist you in the custody dispute.

My advise, always stay CALM and COLLECTED in the presence of the ex-wife and the judge. Any indications that you loose your cool easily or cannot display restraint will reflect poorly on you. Do not concede to your ex-wife, fight for your children and allow the system to work for you. Father's have many more rights today than they did even 10 years ago.

Good luck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skutch

I won back my full visitation rights in court today. My lawyer mopped the floor with the two of them. I've learned much from this.

missed this part before I responded, congrats!!

genuinegirly · 02-06-2008, 04:35 PM

Congrats on regaining custudy.

Skutch · 02-06-2008, 07:18 PM

Thanks.
I am surprised to hear that a judge will hear the testimony of a 10 year old girl, because in my case my ex had my daughter so confused and brainwashed it was scary. I feel sorry for my daughter I really do.

If you find yourself in the court system for whatever reason, NEVER underestimate the importance of a good lawyer.

Willravel · 02-06-2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

My parents yelled at me ALL the time when I was young.

That explains the avatar.

Skutch, I'm glad this turned out well, but please keep the number of that attorney. If your ex was willing to do this once she may try it again. Also, your daughter discovered an amazing way to get attention, so I would recommend taking steps to have verification of your actions with her in the future. "Daddy yelled at me" could obviously trigger the ex and her blood-thirsty lawyer.

BTW, is anyone surprised at how fast this was?

Skutch · 02-06-2008, 10:31 PM

Yes, I have her cell#, her office#, her fax#, her secretary's cell#, her email, her secretary's email, her snail mail...unfortunately I will be awaiting surprise attack for the next, oh, 10 years I suppose. How would I verify my actions as you say?

Willravel · 02-06-2008, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skutch

Yes, I have her cell#, her office#, her fax#, her secretary's cell#, her email, her secretary's email, her snail mail...unfortunately I will be awaiting surprise attack for the next, oh, 10 years I suppose. How would I verify my actions as you say?

Neutral witnesses, video/photo evidence, etc. Just stuff to verify your story.

allaboutmusic · 02-06-2008, 11:27 PM

Obviously it's JMHO, but you and your wife need to stop using your kids to get at each other. The passive-aggressive behaviour is really not fair on them.

Skutch · 02-15-2008, 10:06 PM

I was sitting in the movies today before the show with my son and daughter, and this song started playing thoughout the theater. My son said to no one in particular - in the tiniest little voice - "I like this song."

I almost started fucking crying right there.

01-30-2008, 08:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
Skutch Crazy	Child Custody Hell So last summer, my 2 kids (8 and 10) and I went to the store to get a few groceries. My daughter (10) asked if she could get a drinks bottle for her soccer games. I already had 2 of them at home, so I said no. She started to get angry and said to me: you always get (my son) whatever he wants, you like him better than me. She proceeded to start crying and sat on the floor of the store refusing to get up. I told her in a steady voice to get up now. Reluctantly she did, and we proceeded to leave the store directly...I just left the cart there in the aisle I was so pissed, and we walked out. We get in the car, and drive a few miles in silence. I then started shouting (loudly) at both kids, saying they're spoiled, that I'm the parent and they're the children, and that they should follow my rules and respect me and not vice versa. My daughter had stopped crying and was clearly frightened, my son as well. Fast forward one week. I'm walking out of my house to the sight of my ex-wife approaching me up the walk with a court order in her hand. She hands it to me in silence, gets in her car and drives away. It was an emergency motion to temporarily suspend my visitation rights with my daughter (not my son). So, for the past 7 months, Ive been seeing my daughter according to the schedule: once a week for a few hours, and one overnight a month, where before it was 2x a week and every other weekend. Now I'm not saying that shouting is the best method of disciplining, I've learned this. I have never hit either of my kids, not once. I don't drink, smoke, drugs, nothing. I ask my daughter when I see her when I go pick up my son if she is afraid of me...no. I ask her if she would like to spend a few nights at my house, yes. She cries and says she misses me. She has built up very good friendships with the kids in my neighborhod, they do things together all the time, year round. I take them to activities, funtions, birthday parties, they have sleepovers at my place, I cook for them, etc. We've been to a social worker who has seen us interact and has commented on the lack of fear my daughter seems to show towards me. Last night, my ex filed a motion for a permanent change in the visitation schedule. I would see my daughter 4x a month for a few hours, and 1 overnight a month. My ex has a boyfriend of 3 years. He comes and goes, and doesn't seem to want to marry my ex. Why buy the milk, perhaps. He doesn't buy the kids clothes or fix stuff around her house. Whatever. He pays much attention to my daughter, coaches her in soccer, and they seem to have a decent relationship. I'm sure my ex encourages the relationship, as she despises me. Anyone in the house have any thoughts, comments, opinions on the matter? Thanks for reading. Last edited by Skutch; 01-30-2008 at 08:24 PM..

01-30-2008, 08:59 PM	#3 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	Granted I don't know the whole situation but it sure sounds to me like your Ex is trying to punish you via the daughter. I'd fight it, calmly, as much as I possibly could. Do you have an attorney? What State? How involved is the social worker? __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club Last edited by Tully Mars; 01-30-2008 at 08:59 PM.. Reason: the dreaded typo

01-31-2008, 01:48 AM	#5 (permalink)
jewels Eponymous Location: Central Central Florida	You absolutely must get an attorney. Now. You did nothing wrong. She's playing on your fear of losing them. It seems she knows which buttons to push and it seems that you're daughter's picking up on that. She would have to prove you're unfit in order to reduce your custodial time. You're not, she's got nothing. If the GM or Judge interviews your kids, the truth will come out. Don't feel guilty for raising your voice. __________________ We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess. Mark Twain

01-31-2008, 06:20 AM	#6 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Skutch, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to give you both barrels full of honestly. You were abusive. Were you physically abusive? No. Were you verbally abusive? Oh, hell yeah. Your daughter pitched a temper tantrum in the middle of a store, and you seem to have handled that pretty well. Maybe you caved by leaving the store, but that's more of a relationship thing between the two of you than anything else and isn't all that important. The fact that you got in the car, drove a few miles and then exploded is what I'm talking about, though. That's verbal abuse. You admitted that you scared BOTH kids. That, in my opinion, is where everything went wrong for you. Now if this is an isolated incident, that's one thing. However, I get the feeling that it wasn't. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but it seems to me that there's a concern that you're a powder keg waiting to explode. If you're not, then you need to convince everyone that you're not. If you are, then you probably need to accept the fact that you need help. You may even want to consider getting help even if you don't think you have a problem so that you can be seen as recognizing the issue and being proactive. If you can get an expert to say that you don't have anger issues, it makes your case that much stronger. A good attorney would tell you pretty much the same. Go find one. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

01-31-2008, 10:53 AM	#13 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	My parents yelled at me ALL the time when I was young. Don't see how that could be labeled as 'verbal abuse' lol __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

01-30-2008, 08:53 PM	#2 (permalink)
RangerJoe Addict	It sounds to me like you should fight it. You had a bad moment, so what? I'm sure your ex has had them two. If she has no evidence of any kind of abuse or neglect and your daughter WANTS to go back to the old schedule, then the judge really has no reason to grant the permanent change. But, you have to fight it for it NOT to get changed. If you do nothing, the nothing happens. Things stay the same. Prove to the judge and your daughter that you want to see her more again.

01-30-2008, 10:01 PM	#4 (permalink)
Skutch Crazy	She has no evidence of abuse or neglect because I'm not abusive or neglectful (yeah I know thats just words). I guess if yelling is considered abuse nowadays then so be it. (And I hardly ever raise my voice to them, period.) She told her mom and her teachers at school about it, and how I'm a bad person. My daughter apparently got so upset last summer one day when I was coming to pick both kids up (a few days after the incident) that the camp/school called child protective services. My daughter told the social worker that she (daughter) thought I needed to be punished for yelling at her, and that I deserved not to see her because of it. Yes, I have a lawyer. I'm in the process of getting another lawyer because the first one hasn't been aggressive enough in my opinion. My ex and I agreed (with our lawyers present) for a social worker to evaluate the situation, but I just found out yesterday that the social worker is unable to provide legal material (her notes and observations) to the court, and my lawyer knew this (he recommened it), so I have no impartial evidence to bring before the judge. 5 months down the drain, plus legal expenses. I'm not too impressed with the social worker. Her thing is that she's there to help my daughter period, and wants to hear nothing about the backstory. Fine, but wouldn't one think it important to understand some of the history that led up to all this, and indeed, is perpetuating it? They play these self-esteem card games where they're supposed to get my daughter expressing her feelings and emotions. I asked her if going to the social worker makes her feel any better and she said no. I'm thinking about getting a private detective to check out the boyfriend.

01-31-2008, 08:56 AM	#12 (permalink)
Skutch Crazy	Well I can say that the conversation continued in the car after we left the store, and it went along the lines of "Dad, you love (my son) more than me, thats why you wouldn't buy me the water bottle in the store." This has been an ongoing theme with her, that pains me to hear her say. The ex and I are very contentious, and there is much passive-aggressive behavior on both our parts I will admit. For example, she has at times notified me of committments the kids have (on my visitation days) either the same day of the committment or a day before, which pisses me off to no end, I don't like surprises, and I don't like to have to change my plans at the last minute. She has sent her boyfriend to school to pickup the kids on my visitation days, which once resulted in him aggressively getting in my face, at school, in front of the kids, and my daughter seeing this and screaming in anticipation of a fight. I told the ex that if he ever does that again, and in front of the kids - I would call the police on him. She calls my house when I have the kids and asks to speak with them. Maybe what I do passive aggresively is to have the kids call back not when she calls, but after our day together is over, usually right before bedtime. but I don't think it is fair for her to always call them on my visitation days. I don't do that to her. As far as the anger issues, its a fair question. Like I said, I do not hit my kids. I rarely raise my voice to them. There have been maybe 3-4 times in 10 years when I raised my voice to them to the most extreme and angriest level, ie., totally pissed off, gloves off, SCREAMING. I think most parents understand what I'm talking about here. And it was typically in response to my daughters rebelliousness, or when she is otherwise misbehaving. The social worker has pointed out how frightened my screaming makes my daughter, and I will take this into consideration from now on. She is a high-strung, nervous-ish girl to begin with, so I will try to restrain myself in the future, but in no way is it like I am constantly screaming at her, I am the quiet, laid back one with her...my parents say that her mom screams at her a lot, that they've seen her "rip her a new asshole" in front of them. She is authoritarian in her parenting style. A bit of backstory to the original story was that before we went to the store, I had to struggle to even get my daughter to come with us to the store. She said she didn't want to go - she wanted to play with her friends. I told her fine, you can have one more hour, but after that I want you to go with us without a fight. She said fine. When the time came for us to go, she started whining, dragging her feet, and saying she didn't want to go. So the situation heading to the store was charged to begin with. So today I go to see the new lawyer, a woman. Specializes in family law, Notre Dame law degree, from a good, old firm. I am hoping that she will advise me more aggressively than has my last lawyer, a guy who Ive had since the divorce. My ex and her lawyer (a former state prosecutor from Brooklyn) have drawn this out without a response from my lawyer...he just let them have their way. I think that both a mother and a father should be able to see their kids after a divorce. Perhaps reading this thread could be used as birth control for some. :/

01-31-2008, 11:11 AM	#14 (permalink)
RangerJoe Addict	No offense, but it does seem like you favor your son, especially in your last post. Maybe you should have an alone day or two with just your daughter. Go go karting or fishing or something. Spend some quality time together and just talk. Also, I don't think it should be a problem for your ex to call your kids while they are with you. Granted, it is YOUR time and she shouldn't be calling while your out and about doing stuff, but she DOES have them all of the time. Maybe talk to her and request that she does wait to call until bedtime. Anyways, it sounds like it's a good thing you got a new lawyer.

01-31-2008, 04:57 PM	#15 (permalink)
cyklone Crazy Location: Adelaide, South Australia	Your daughter is 10. Surely she has an opinion in this. Is your wife just firing your daughter's bullets? If your daughter at 10 really wanted to see you, why is she not advocating for custody on your behalf?

01-31-2008, 05:13 PM	#16 (permalink)
jewels Eponymous Location: Central Central Florida	Please. 10 is way too young whether she's menstruating or not. At that age, kids wants the parent that spends more money on them and gives them less responsibility. They're also easily influenced by both parties on emotional issues. If you've got kids, don't ask them who they would choose. Ask someone else that has equal ties to you and your spouse. __________________ We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess. Mark Twain

01-31-2008, 06:42 PM	#17 (permalink)
Skutch Crazy	I set aside a father-daughter day a few weeks ago actually and took my daughter downtown to the St. Petersburg Ballet Theater, which was simply awesome in every way possible. The dancing was magic, and the ambiance inside the small theater was stimulating. We both had a good time. The thing about kids that age is that, in my observation, the son naturally gravitates to the dad, and the daughter gravitates to the mom. My son always whines and grumbles when his mom comes to pick him up, and my daughter is the same when she has to leave mom. And I have to agree with jewels443 that young children are susceptible to the moods and whims of their parents. I remember picking my kids up on the way to taking them to Toronto for the weekend, and my daughter was like, Mom's crying, she says she's going to miss me, I don't want to leave her alone...Dad do I have to go to Toronto, I don't want to go, I don't want to leave Mom. Funny you should mention fishing because over the summer, I took both kids fishing and my daughter almost went into apoplectic shock when we hooked a fish. She's sensitive about animals (she won't eat hamburgers because she knows they were once cows) and literally started crying when we landed the fish. After she saw that we unhooked it and set it free, she went and sat in the car for the remainder of the time, reading. Which is fine with me, I won't ask her to go fishing anymore, and I don't hold her love of animals against her at all (we have 2 cats).

02-06-2008, 02:58 PM	#18 (permalink)
Skutch Crazy	I won back my full visitation rights in court today. My lawyer mopped the floor with the two of them. I've learned much from this.

02-06-2008, 04:35 PM	#20 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	Congrats on regaining custudy. __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

02-06-2008, 07:18 PM	#21 (permalink)
Skutch Crazy	Thanks. I am surprised to hear that a judge will hear the testimony of a 10 year old girl, because in my case my ex had my daughter so confused and brainwashed it was scary. I feel sorry for my daughter I really do. If you find yourself in the court system for whatever reason, NEVER underestimate the importance of a good lawyer.

02-06-2008, 10:31 PM	#23 (permalink)
Skutch Crazy	Yes, I have her cell#, her office#, her fax#, her secretary's cell#, her email, her secretary's email, her snail mail...unfortunately I will be awaiting surprise attack for the next, oh, 10 years I suppose. How would I verify my actions as you say?

02-06-2008, 11:27 PM	#25 (permalink)
allaboutmusic Aurally Fixated	Obviously it's JMHO, but you and your wife need to stop using your kids to get at each other. The passive-aggressive behaviour is really not fair on them.

02-15-2008, 10:06 PM	#26 (permalink)
Skutch Crazy	I was sitting in the movies today before the show with my son and daughter, and this song started playing thoughout the theater. My son said to no one in particular - in the tiniest little voice - "I like this song." I almost started fucking crying right there.