Bring your Parents to Work Day? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 06-12-2007, 07:34 AM

Quote:

TODAY’S HANDS-ON MOMS TODAY’S HANDS-ON MOMS AND DADS DON’T STOP MEDDLING WHEN JUNIOR GOES OFF TO WORK
LINK

IT wasn’t Bring Your Daddy to Work Day, but Melinda Smith was bringing her father to work.

After three days on the job at a fi nancial services fi rm, what had looked like her dream job was beginning to seem like a bust. Her offi ce cube felt sterile, her boss was always in meetings and the only co-workers she’d met were the ones who sat next to her at orientation, who worked in different departments on different floors.

It was time to take action - for Smith’s father, that is. “My daughter’s shy,” he told the Post, asking that his own name not be used, “and no matter how busy a boss is, he ought to take time out to introduce a new staffer around. But he left her to fend for herself.”

To make matters worse, her first week’s assignment called for “not a bit of human interaction”; she was tasked with studying a 200-page procedural manual. “Doing that is worse than sitting on the sidelines,” he said. “It’s bo-ring.”

So what was Daddy-do-Right planning to do when he escorted his daughter to work on Day 4? Hunt down the boss man and give him a piece of his mind?

“No anger, just a little coaching. It’s obvious that the man has never been trained as a leader,” said Smith’s father - whose plans for a little attitude adjustment were foiled when Melinda, who was unfamiliar with her company’s visitor policy, couldn’t get him past security.

Does this sound more like the opening scene of a satirical film called “Lost Without Daddy” than a real-life situation? Well it’s not. And though this all-too-real case may be extreme, it’s not an anomaly. From Connecticut to California, employers report that “helicopter” parents, so dubbed because they hover over their offspring’s every move, are increasingly becoming an occupational hazard.

Today’s parents “actively, persistently, and at times fiercely advocate for their sons and daughters in the workplace,” says Phil Gardner, director of the Collegiate Employment Research Institute at Michigan State University.

In private, some employers and recruiters will admit to finding overbearing parents a pain in the neck. Rather than resist the trend, though, most are accepting them as an inevitable part of the landscape, and learning to adapt by involving them in the hiring process.

“It’s what we have to do to compete,” says Michael Kannisto, global staffing director at Bausch & Lomb, “It doesn’t matter if we like it or not - with 77 million baby boomers retiring, it’s a matter of arithmetic.”

Taking the lead

Recruiter Pete Medrano, who brings more than 80 new interns into the Applied Physics lab at John Hopkins each year, started noticing the trend a few years ago.

“Sometimes it begins with a call from a parent inquiring about an internship,” he says. “And when I probe a little and ask in which specific area their son or daughter’s interest lies, the parent often doesn’t know.”

Medrano then suggests the offspring call for themselves, but all too often it’s the parent who calls back a second time, eager to discuss the answer.

Though Medrano believes most of the applications he receives are completed by the actual candidate, other recruiters suspect parents have a hand in the process - and sometimes more than a hand. Staffers following up on applications have run into “candidates” who are completely unaware that they’ve applied, and not at all interested in the job.

Hovering parents are a common presence at college job fairs - usually with their children in tow, but not always. Klint Kendrick, a recruiter for Boeing, was recently approached by a mother whose progeny was too busy studying to shop for his own job; she pummeled Kendrick with questions while touting her son’s grade point average.

While recruiters don’t necessarily see a parent’s presence as a turn-off, it does matter who takes the lead.

“When a parent introduces his child and then fails to step aside, it’s awkward, not only for me, but for the prospective employee,” says Kendrick. “After all, it’s the employer and prospective employee that need to form a relationship, not the employer and parent.

“Will you back off!?” Kendrick and a mass of other recruiters might shout if they could - but they can’t. Parents are often stockholders, customers and potential employees of the companies recruiters represent, and alienating them is not good business. Besides, if a young prospect has a great background, hiring managers unanimously said they’d want to interview him regardless of the parents.

Of course, when the interview rolls around, Mom and Dad might make another appearance. At Boeing, for example, an interviewee brought his mother not only into the reception area, but into the actual interview, Kendrick recalls. A recruiter for a department store chain tells of a mother who sat in the lobby while her daughter went through a four-hour interview session. And at still another company, a source reports, a mother showed up and interviewed on behalf of her sick daughter. “We’re so close,” she told the interviewer, “that I know exactly how my daughter would answer.”

Generation gap

When these things happen, employers are at a loss, first, because there’s no policy dictating how to play host to a pop-in parent, and second, because they can’t help questioning how much managerial support would be required by a new hire who can’t get through an interview without Mom or Dad.

Baby boomers who grew up as latchkey kids tend to look at this from one angle, while millennials who were ferried around in minivans with “Baby On Board” signs in the window see it from quite another.

“This generation is accustomed to constant support and guidance,” says recruiter Anne Wilke. “For example, when I get a new job, I’m comfortable going to get my employee ID on my own; I don’t expect someone to walk me over to security. This new generation does.”

This is not to say that millennials are less capable or lazier than their forebears. “They’re collaborators, not slackers,” says Gardner, who studies graduates’ transitions into the workplace.

Be it good or bad, employers are recognizing that today’s entry-level hires are not making their choices alone. Recruiter Michael Homula of Bearing Fruit Consulting now asks a simple question at each initial interview: “Who will influence your decision should you be made an offer - a parent, college adviser, older sibling?” The answer is less important than its accuracy.

How so? Last year, when a candidate proudly told Homula she’d be deciding alone, he expected her to stay true to her word. But when she called to discuss the offer, there was Dad in the background: Tell him you want this; make him change that. Dad and daughter later showed up in Homula’s office making like Tom Cruise and Cuba Gooding Jr. in “Jerry Maguire.” He ultimately withdrew the offer.

“Companies want to hire adults,” he says.

To avoid such situations, and provide parents with information their offspring may want them to have, some employers - Ernst & Young and Merrill Lynch among them - have created information packets that can be easily forwarded or even sent directly to the parents of individuals to whom they’ve made offers.

Circling hawks

Though this reduces the need for employers and parents to interact directly, there are still those folks (primarily fathers) who feel it’s their duty to improve on their child’s compensation. Referred to as “blackhawks” because of their aggressive nature, they descend upon employers demanding higher salaries, more vacation and better benefit packages. Of the eight recruiters interviewed for this story, seven reported such an encounter.

“If a kid out of college needs his parent to run interference in his behalf, then that kid can’t work here, because we’re never going to be able to hold his hand like that,” says Jim Fay, a parenting expert who coined the term “helicopter parents.”

Blackhawks invade with even greater frequency when offers fail to materialize. These parents, who may have successfully won their kids exam retakes and term-paper extensions in the past, now find themselves rather powerless; employers seldom change their minds.

And what happens when the kid gets the job and complains it’s less of a walk in the park than they expected?

As Melinda Smith’s boss narrowly avoided learning: trouble. Parents have been known to call and complain that workloads are too heavy and hours too long; some even demand promotions. They’ve also been known to improve their kid’s work or help them meet deadlines.

This poses a problem not only for the boss, but for the adult-child, says Fay.

“If a child is shielded from the bumps and bruises that are part of life, how is he going to handle the big things?” he says. When a parent rushes to do for the child what he can do for himself, the message the kid gets is: “I’m not capable of doing this on my own.”

Margaret Regan, president of the Future Work Institute, predicts that after this transitional phase, employers, new hires and parents will learn to adapt to one another.

“The entitled millennial, who’s used to hearing hands clapping every time he does something right, will have to get used to working without that kind of support, and employers, who are in a state of shock at present, will have to get used to a generation for whom the employer relationship is not the be all and end all.”

All of this is easy to say when jobs are plentiful, notes Colin Kingsbury of HRM Direct. “But the hiring of entry-level employees is volatile according to economic conditions,” he notes.

“I suspect that a lot of the silliness we now see will evaporate like the morning fog with the next downturn of the economic cycle.”

Heavy meddle

WONDERING if your parents are crossing the line? Or, if you’re a parent, wondering if you’re too hands-on with your kid’s career? Here are some signs things have gone too far.

Your parents are too involved in your career if:

* They call an employer to complain about your workload. Attempting to earn your employer’s respect after a call like this is all but impossible.

* They try to negotiate a promotion on your behalf. Unless you’re an entertainer or an athlete, you don’t need an agent, and even if you did, Mom wouldn’t be your best choice. Look what happened to Lindsay Lohan.

* They attend job fairs on your behalf. Recruiters want relationships with their future workers, not those who once diapered them.

You’re too involved in your child’s career if you:

* Make vacation requests on his behalf - especially in writing. If you do this, don’t be surprised if his boss posts it on the break-room refrigerator.

* You redo her work assignments. If you have that much time on your hands, please get a life - or at least hope that your employer doesn’t catch you doing it on their time.

* You write your kid’s resume. Unless you’re planning to outlive your child, he needs to learn to do this for himself.

I don't know what to think of this. As a hiring manager and having managed people for 20 years now, I can say without a doubt, if I saw this happen it would be VERY negative on the 90 day probationary period. If I could absorb the workload somehow, I'd send them packing immediately. Especially if that "parent" thought that I didn't know how to lead, he'd have another thing coming since I have successfully managed over 50 people at one time.

The whole point of hiring someone is that I hired that individual, not their cheerleaders, team, or entourage.

Jinn · 06-12-2007, 07:45 AM

somehow I imagine someone like Paris Hilton in the role of the child here.

some people never learn to be adults, so their parents are always bailing them out.

better for me, I say, because it leaves me more career opportunities.

snowy · 06-12-2007, 07:58 AM

I know one of the reasons that I plan on taking my fiance's name when we marry is because I am going into the same field my father is in, and he is very well-known. It's not that he could have a negative influence on my future career--it could only be positive, as he is very successful and considered a leader in his field. He has won a number of awards associated with his profession and held a lot of leadership positions in professional organizations, so any name recognition would be good for me--but I'd rather stand on my own two feet.

And I would never, ever let my dad "set my boss straight", and my father would certainly never offer to do so. That's flat-out unprofessional. Suck it up or quit.

The_Jazz · 06-12-2007, 08:12 AM

Wow, if I had a new employee do this, they'd be gone. No questions. My interview with prospective new hires generally consists of telling them that they don't want the job because they'll have to work too hard. If they sat through that lecture and then had a parent do something like this, I'd find them another opportunity. There's no way they could hack the second year of the process if they're complaining in the first year or have a parent do the job for them.

Sultana · 06-12-2007, 08:18 AM

I'm rather surprised to read that the job markets feel they have to put up with that kind of thing to any degree to be competitive. I didn't realise there were so many job offers abounding that you have to accept immature larvae into the workforce....

Bill O'Rights · 06-12-2007, 08:23 AM

Hmmm...

I knew that the "Helicopter Paents" followed their little darlings from high school into college, but I had no idea that it extended into the workplace. This ranks right up close to top as one of the most pathetic things that I've ever heard of. Get some freakin' lives, people.

Guess what, Dad? Your daughter's Boss is not her old soccer coach. I don't think that he/she is going to appreciate the pointers too much.

Charlatan · 06-12-2007, 02:59 PM

Wow. Just wow.

I can't imagine asking for that sort of assistance from a parent. Hell, I was embarrassed if my Mom even showed her face around school. I can only imagine how freaked I would be if she showed up at work.

This will not be happening with my kids. I can guarantee it.

Psycho Dad · 06-12-2007, 03:24 PM

I have more than once had moms call me after terminating their pride and joy. I can only imagine how the day would go were Junior to come to work with mommy in tow by the apron strings.

This is why i think damn near every kid needs to have a summer or after school job. Far better to learn life's hard lessons about the workplace and personal responsibility when a paper hat is involved than it is when a career and potential resume stain is important.

Willravel · 06-12-2007, 04:13 PM

I would be deeply offended if some retired idiot came in to teach me how to manage his little girl. I take great pride in my ability to manage effectively, and having a former soccer-dad come in to explain that I've 'obviously never been trained as a leader' just because his daughter never grew up (gee, I wonder why?) would probably end with me firing his daughter and lecturing him on how to allow his offspring to develop healthy independence in order to grow into an adult. It's frightening that people think this type of behavior is appropriate.

If a parent called me to complain about his or her child's workload, I'd speak to the worker. If it wasn't their fault, I'd thank the worker and let them know that I'm always available if they feel overwhelmed. I'd call the parent and offer them a job. If they accept, I'll give them more work than anyone has ever been given in history. If they decline, then I'll ask them to not call back as they clearly have no business speaking to me.

People are lazy by nature and have to learn to grow into a person who can earn a living. These helicopter parents are going to help create a subculture of perpetual puppies who cannot ever be a helpful member of the pack.

Bill O'Rights · 06-13-2007, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

People are lazy by nature and have to learn to grow into a person who can earn a living.

I disagree. I don't think that people are naturally lazy. Oh sure, some are useless, but as a whole? I don't think so. I don't beleive that people, as a whole, are lazy by nature. Nor do I believe that people need to "learn to grow" into someone who can earn a living. I think that you're underestimating the instinctual drive to succeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

These helicopter parents are going to help create a subculture of perpetual puppies who cannot ever be a helpful member of the pack.

Write that sentence down again, because it's one of the very few that you've ever written that I can get behind 100%.

JustJess · 06-13-2007, 06:55 AM

Holy shit. We kinda think less of those who bring their spouses (oh, he's just here to give me a ride bullshit), let alone PARENTS. If he's here to give you a ride, he shouldn't wait in our waiting room... making you look incompetent. Also, of course you're going to talk over a job offer with your family, but we don't need to know that. Don't tell me you need to talk to your husband, or your mom. Just do it, and say you need a day or two to consider the offer.

Of course... if you interviewed with us, don't you already know if you want this job? Don't most people know after an interview if this is going to work for them? *sigh*

Children. Helpless fucking "adult" children.

And don't get me started on those bringing their CHILDREN to the interview. *siiiiiiigh*

Shauk · 06-13-2007, 07:23 AM

you know, it probably isn't much of a stretch to say... these are the same parents that are pampering thier kids by letting them pick out an audi or something.

ShaniFaye · 06-13-2007, 07:30 AM

My daddy would call my boss and tell him to fire me if I even THOUGHT to ask him to "intervene" because obviously I wouldnt have enough brains to handle the responsibility of a job

Willravel · 06-13-2007, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

My daddy would call my boss and tell him to fire me if I even THOUGHT to ask him to "intervene" because obviously I wouldnt have enough brains to handle the responsibility of a job

Your dad is a responsible parent.

Meditrina · 06-13-2007, 07:51 AM

Lucky for me, my parents are "hands-off" parents. They would never think of speaking to my boss on my behalf. Not that they don't offer me advice, but it stops there. (so maybe "hands-off" is not the right term I am looking for)

I hope that I will never be a Helicopter Parent and will try my hardest to let my children learn how to survive so they don't feel they need me to hover. Of course, I still want them to come to me if they need help, but not to that extreme. (I want to be inbetween a helicopter parent and hands-off parents).

alicat · 06-14-2007, 09:34 PM

Today I saw the author of the book "Muzzled: From T-ball to Terrorism-True Stories That Should Be Fiction", Michael Smerconish on T.V.. I don't know who he is and haven't read his book but thought what he had to say was interesting.

He eventually, if briefly, touched on politics and the Iraq war. First though he talked about how political correctness didn't really begin with politics but with "American" culture. His opinion was that those people who have recently as well as those who will be entering the workforce (and the next generation to come) have been so sheltered from hard work, disappointment and criticism that they aren't equiped to deal with real world situations. If you're on the TFP and of those generations than I'd like to think you don't meet his description.

One example he gave was that he happened to be a fairly good athlete when he was in lower education and because of his accomplishments, he has 4 trophies he earned. He was then and is now, proud of them. In comparison, his boys have dozens of tropies or awards between them. Not for winning anything or excelling at anything, but they received them simply for showing up.

His theme was that the bar has been so lowered, so as not to bruise ego's and have everyone on an even playing field, that there is little need for anyone to try to excell. Indeed, it doesn't leave room for anyone to know how to effectively compeat.

I don't know if his idea's are correct but they seem to fit in with the OP about "adult" kids needing to have thier hands held while entering the workforce. In my own observations, it isin't new information that most of the "youngest" adults in our society have been coddled. Stories of "over-protective soccer moms" and entitlement have been around for at least a decade and probably started with the adult yuppies of the "Me" era of the '80's.

I personally had my own experience with this about a week ago. I'm normally at my local grocery about 3 times a week. I've been reading and hearing about "heelies" for a couple of years now and hadn't seen them in action yet (I find it funny that they're all the rage since I had GAS shoe's in the late '70's-early '80's that were the first incarnation of heelies, they're not a new invention).

I am normally very slow and cautious at the end of an isle with my cart in case someone is comming by. No one was and I started to turn into the main isle when a kid came flying in front of me out of nowhere. I reacted faster than the kid could have and stopped my cart (otherwise he would've wiped out with my cart or a display if he'd managed to avoid me). His mother was a couple isles away and by the time he "went around" me she was at my isle and actually had the balls to say "be more careful" to me! I hope nothing else needs to be said about what's so so wrong with that situation. Coddled indeed.

Man, didn't mean to ramble so much, apologies.

Ali

06-12-2007, 07:45 AM	#2 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	somehow I imagine someone like Paris Hilton in the role of the child here. some people never learn to be adults, so their parents are always bailing them out. better for me, I say, because it leaves me more career opportunities. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

06-12-2007, 07:58 AM	#3 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	I know one of the reasons that I plan on taking my fiance's name when we marry is because I am going into the same field my father is in, and he is very well-known. It's not that he could have a negative influence on my future career--it could only be positive, as he is very successful and considered a leader in his field. He has won a number of awards associated with his profession and held a lot of leadership positions in professional organizations, so any name recognition would be good for me--but I'd rather stand on my own two feet. And I would never, ever let my dad "set my boss straight", and my father would certainly never offer to do so. That's flat-out unprofessional. Suck it up or quit. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

06-12-2007, 08:12 AM	#4 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Wow, if I had a new employee do this, they'd be gone. No questions. My interview with prospective new hires generally consists of telling them that they don't want the job because they'll have to work too hard. If they sat through that lecture and then had a parent do something like this, I'd find them another opportunity. There's no way they could hack the second year of the process if they're complaining in the first year or have a parent do the job for them. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-12-2007, 08:18 AM	#5 (permalink)
Sultana Falling Angel Location: L.A. L.A. land	I'm rather surprised to read that the job markets feel they have to put up with that kind of thing to any degree to be competitive. I didn't realise there were so many job offers abounding that you have to accept immature larvae into the workforce.... __________________ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." - Matt Groening My goal? To fulfill my potential.

06-12-2007, 08:23 AM	#6 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Hmmm... I knew that the "Helicopter Paents" followed their little darlings from high school into college, but I had no idea that it extended into the workplace. This ranks right up close to top as one of the most pathetic things that I've ever heard of. Get some freakin' lives, people. Guess what, Dad? Your daughter's Boss is not her old soccer coach. I don't think that he/she is going to appreciate the pointers too much. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

06-12-2007, 02:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Wow. Just wow. I can't imagine asking for that sort of assistance from a parent. Hell, I was embarrassed if my Mom even showed her face around school. I can only imagine how freaked I would be if she showed up at work. This will not be happening with my kids. I can guarantee it. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-12-2007, 03:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
Psycho Dad Mulletproof Location: Some nucking fut house.	I have more than once had moms call me after terminating their pride and joy. I can only imagine how the day would go were Junior to come to work with mommy in tow by the apron strings. This is why i think damn near every kid needs to have a summer or after school job. Far better to learn life's hard lessons about the workplace and personal responsibility when a paper hat is involved than it is when a career and potential resume stain is important. __________________ Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

06-12-2007, 04:13 PM	#9 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I would be deeply offended if some retired idiot came in to teach me how to manage his little girl. I take great pride in my ability to manage effectively, and having a former soccer-dad come in to explain that I've 'obviously never been trained as a leader' just because his daughter never grew up (gee, I wonder why?) would probably end with me firing his daughter and lecturing him on how to allow his offspring to develop healthy independence in order to grow into an adult. It's frightening that people think this type of behavior is appropriate. If a parent called me to complain about his or her child's workload, I'd speak to the worker. If it wasn't their fault, I'd thank the worker and let them know that I'm always available if they feel overwhelmed. I'd call the parent and offer them a job. If they accept, I'll give them more work than anyone has ever been given in history. If they decline, then I'll ask them to not call back as they clearly have no business speaking to me. People are lazy by nature and have to learn to grow into a person who can earn a living. These helicopter parents are going to help create a subculture of perpetual puppies who cannot ever be a helpful member of the pack.

06-13-2007, 06:55 AM	#11 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	Holy shit. We kinda think less of those who bring their spouses (oh, he's just here to give me a ride bullshit), let alone PARENTS. If he's here to give you a ride, he shouldn't wait in our waiting room... making you look incompetent. Also, of course you're going to talk over a job offer with your family, but we don't need to know that. Don't tell me you need to talk to your husband, or your mom. Just do it, and say you need a day or two to consider the offer. Of course... if you interviewed with us, don't you already know if you want this job? Don't most people know after an interview if this is going to work for them? sigh Children. Helpless fucking "adult" children. And don't get me started on those bringing their CHILDREN to the interview. siiiiiiigh __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

06-13-2007, 07:23 AM	#12 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	you know, it probably isn't much of a stretch to say... these are the same parents that are pampering thier kids by letting them pick out an audi or something.

06-13-2007, 07:30 AM	#13 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	My daddy would call my boss and tell him to fire me if I even THOUGHT to ask him to "intervene" because obviously I wouldnt have enough brains to handle the responsibility of a job __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

06-13-2007, 07:51 AM	#15 (permalink)
Meditrina Junkie Location: LI,NY	Lucky for me, my parents are "hands-off" parents. They would never think of speaking to my boss on my behalf. Not that they don't offer me advice, but it stops there. (so maybe "hands-off" is not the right term I am looking for) I hope that I will never be a Helicopter Parent and will try my hardest to let my children learn how to survive so they don't feel they need me to hover. Of course, I still want them to come to me if they need help, but not to that extreme. (I want to be inbetween a helicopter parent and hands-off parents). __________________ "Toughness is in the soul and spirit, not in muscles." ~Alex Karras

06-14-2007, 09:34 PM	#16 (permalink)
alicat Baffled Location: West Michigan	Today I saw the author of the book "Muzzled: From T-ball to Terrorism-True Stories That Should Be Fiction", Michael Smerconish on T.V.. I don't know who he is and haven't read his book but thought what he had to say was interesting. He eventually, if briefly, touched on politics and the Iraq war. First though he talked about how political correctness didn't really begin with politics but with "American" culture. His opinion was that those people who have recently as well as those who will be entering the workforce (and the next generation to come) have been so sheltered from hard work, disappointment and criticism that they aren't equiped to deal with real world situations. If you're on the TFP and of those generations than I'd like to think you don't meet his description. One example he gave was that he happened to be a fairly good athlete when he was in lower education and because of his accomplishments, he has 4 trophies he earned. He was then and is now, proud of them. In comparison, his boys have dozens of tropies or awards between them. Not for winning anything or excelling at anything, but they received them simply for showing up. His theme was that the bar has been so lowered, so as not to bruise ego's and have everyone on an even playing field, that there is little need for anyone to try to excell. Indeed, it doesn't leave room for anyone to know how to effectively compeat. I don't know if his idea's are correct but they seem to fit in with the OP about "adult" kids needing to have thier hands held while entering the workforce. In my own observations, it isin't new information that most of the "youngest" adults in our society have been coddled. Stories of "over-protective soccer moms" and entitlement have been around for at least a decade and probably started with the adult yuppies of the "Me" era of the '80's. I personally had my own experience with this about a week ago. I'm normally at my local grocery about 3 times a week. I've been reading and hearing about "heelies" for a couple of years now and hadn't seen them in action yet (I find it funny that they're all the rage since I had GAS shoe's in the late '70's-early '80's that were the first incarnation of heelies, they're not a new invention). I am normally very slow and cautious at the end of an isle with my cart in case someone is comming by. No one was and I started to turn into the main isle when a kid came flying in front of me out of nowhere. I reacted faster than the kid could have and stopped my cart (otherwise he would've wiped out with my cart or a display if he'd managed to avoid me). His mother was a couple isles away and by the time he "went around" me she was at my isle and actually had the balls to say "be more careful" to me! I hope nothing else needs to be said about what's so so wrong with that situation. Coddled indeed. Man, didn't mean to ramble so much, apologies. Ali __________________ 'Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun, The frumious Bandersnatch!'--Jabberwocky, Lewis Carroll "You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late."--Ralph Waldo Emerson