How much is too much? Calling child services - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

raeanna74 · 07-01-2006, 05:54 AM

1. The kids are never washed or changed. All three have worn the same outfit at least 2 days in a row for EACH outfit they've ever worn here. The baby wore the same outfit that I sent her home in the very next day 3 times in a row. This means that the only time she gets clean clothes are when I change them and she's not gotten a bath any of those nights. The baby spits up a lot with the formular and bottles mom uses so she gets quite stinky. I gave the baby a full bath yesterday. I also trimmed the babies nails last week when she was continuously scratching her own face with these long DIRTY nails.
2. The two older children are more trouble than their worth. I allowed the kids to play in the pool today and when they finally got out I felt like I'd been sucked dry by a vampire. I had to watch them 100% of the time and even then the girl especially was furtively looking to see if I was aware of her mean pranks. She was either doing something mean or screaming at the top of her lungs at someone else (usually over absolutely nothing) the entire time. She was NEVER quiet. I made each of them get out for stints sitting and watching the other's play as punishment for bad behavior. The girl hit two kids yesterday, dumped water over a child (who was not in a swimsuit), and deliberately broke a toy yesterday. When I told the mother she just said "oh Hmm." and never said a word to the daughter.
3. The father was supposed to take the kids for the weekend and I was supposed to have yesterday off. Since he and his girlfriend were getting evicted yesterday (as told to me by his wife) they could not keep the kids so I got them at 5:00am until 4:00pm.
4. The mother is never home on time. She has no concept of time either. If she gets off at 3:00 she will tell me that she is going to pick them up at 3:00. When in actuallity she works 30 min away and will really be able to pick them up at 3:30. She also claims that she cannot get from work to here in less than 45 min. She works fairly close to where hubby works and he is home like clockwork in 25-30 min every day even despite the construction he must navigate. She is usually here 30 min later than she could be. On Wednesday this week she called me at 4:00 to ask if I would watch the kids for an extra 1 1/2 hrs that day. Which interpreted means 2 hours extra. I told her no as I had already kept them for 11 hours that day alone. She had someone else pick them up. That particular person was true poor white trash. Filthy mouth, dirty clothes, car littered with fast food and cigarrette junk, and the car looked like she'd dragged it from the junk yard. She was late too.
5. I originally had agreed to only watch from 6:30 till 3:30pm for $100/week. Plus she had agreed to bring groceries. She did not bring many groceries to speak of. Just 2 boxes of cereal and a pack of pudding cups in 2 weeks. Finally after she informed me that she was going to 10 hr days I changed the contract to a different hourly arrangement at a slightly higher rate. This would account for a lack of groceries, her tardiness, and the added hours. She complained several times before finally signing the contract. Then she asked me what kind of groceries would I have wanted, she "didn't know what to fix for the kids for lunches." The oldest is 7 yrs old. What HAS she been feeding him?
6. The father just finished a second sentence in prison about a year ago. He has not been in these children's lives hardly at all and when he has it's been basically only long enough to create another child.
7. The mother was in special ed classes in highschool so one might think she just didn't know any better. My mother and aunt have both babysat for her for years and both have attempted to teach her HOW to care for the children better. She argues that she likes how she does things and does not want to change. I suggested a different formula because the infant seems to spit up half her bottle every time she eats. The mother argued with me, That how ALL my children did. Soooo? They all had a problem. And she shrugged, and turned her back on me.
8. The mother rarely holds the baby. I've tried handing the baby too her and she turns away or crosses her arms. I pretty much have to load her car and put the baby in the car seat and into the car myself. I have to make sure the kids have their shoes on too - IF they brought any. She has brought them half the time with no shoes at all. She says that it's the kids fault for loosing them. But the girl is only 6 yrs old. My daughter looses her shoes too (she'll be 6 in 2 weeks) and every other 6 yr old that I know of are REALLY good at loosing things. It's the parents job to make the kid go look for things.

Yes I have considered calling Child services for this situation. I know I would be able to make an annonymous report or at the very least they would not inform the mother WHO reported her. Unfortunately I'm afraid that the Dad will be asked to take the kid, since the Mom and Dad are separated and in the middle of a divorce. I think he'd be a worse parent than the Mom. He has also been attempting to convince the Mom to say that he is still living with her so that he won't have to pay child support. He's also in and out of their house, moving in when it's convenient. So even if he had the kids he'd be dropping them off with mom or moving in with mom eventually. If I could be sure that neither of the parents would be caring for the kids then I would call. I'm also reticent to call without much concrete evidence. A person coming in to see the baby would see a happy, chubby, relatively healthy baby that was stinky but spits up a lot. The girl has already gotten in trouble for shoplifting and the boy has gotten in trouble for setting a fire at school. The woman is on Welfare, food stamps and WIC so I'm sure she gets checked on a little. The baby gets a checkup every other time she picks up her WIC check. I know how that system works. Do I personally have anything concrete enough? I know the home is a wreck, I've seen it before. How do I document this? How much is too much neglect? Where does one draw the line?

Brewmaniac · 07-01-2006, 06:25 AM

As horrible as this situation is I don't think that within the "system" we have now, unfortunately I don't think calling child & family services would do anything. She is feeding them, clothing them(although their dirty) and providing them with excellent care while at work. I think that CFS would say she is doing better than many.
As sad as it makes us I think that's the reality of things.

I feel bad for you, it must be very frustrating. You are kind to put up with the BS the mother pulls on you. I'm glad you made her change the contract. Make her stick to it. People like her shouldn't be blessed with such gifts!

DEI37 · 07-01-2006, 06:16 PM

Yeah, it's amazing. She gets to take like 20% of her normal pay for these kids. They are rude, and inconsiderate. I was talking to Raeanna when I got home from work, and the boy was all up in my face wanting to show me this computer game that a kid gave him. Believe me, I have little to no patience in this situation. Just ask Raeanna!

We've been helped a little bit in tight financial situations, so she felt a little bit like this could be the "pay it forward" kind of thing. In this case...it's NOT worth it. She's hesitant to pay!!! Tried to get out of coming over here on Friday to pay Raeanna for one week of child care, when we'd provided two. Supposedly, she'll catch up this coming Friday. We'll see.

Psycho Dad · 07-01-2006, 06:45 PM

I don't know what state you are in, but if you are not registered or licensed as a childcare provider, I suggest you get registered or licensed. Being licensed or registered opens the door to many resources for you in a case like this depending on what state you are in. But with licensing or registering you are also considered a mandated reporter and have to report things of this nature. If there is a Head Start or Early Head Start in your area and you are partnered with them the expenses of care would be paid to you by them and the mother would receive instruction on how to be a better parent.

My wife works for Early Head Start and goes through this stuff all the time.

Edit: I guess your state is in you user profile.

Gilda · 07-01-2006, 06:54 PM

Three kids, seven hours a day, for $100. That's . . . $0.95 per child per hour. Unless that's per child, which is still less than $3 per chld per hour.

Now, if you are not doing so already, start documenting everything. Every time they come to daycare in the same clothes two days in a row, write it down. Every time they come in dirty clothes, write it down. Every time they are late, write it down. If the baby is spitting up excessively, start taking notes on that. If you ask her to change formulas, make note of the date and time of the conversation and what happened. You can get contact record sheets at a school supply store, but a notebook works just as well.

You need to start preparing now for the possibility that you may need to call social services sometime in the future. Contemporary notes can serve as evidence of observed neglect.

If, on the other hand, you were just venting, I can see why you're upset, and I have to agree that this group seems like far more trouble than they are worth. I hope things get better for you soon.

Gilda

raeanna74 · 07-01-2006, 08:02 PM

I have not gotten certified because it's harder to turn away the welfare cases when I simply don't want to deal with them. Also I have more welfare cases that want to use my services because they can get child care support from Social Services. Also getting certified costs about $45 a year and opens you to surprise inspections. The forms to apply for certification are about 15 pages long as well. I got them and even filled them out but decided against it because of the red tape, hassle, and the magnet I'd become for trash like this. Yet here I am with this mother. Though I wouldn't be if I hadn't known her years ago.

Anyone, whether they are a lisenced, certified, or neither (as far as I know) are required to report abuse. It's been about 4 years since I took a class that went over all that. I do not remember how much neglect we're required to report. How much is too much? I do not want to be a whistle blower if the situation is really minor and cause someone undo trouble with social services. Though even as I say this I realize this isn't minor neglect.

I have been keeping some record of things. I think after reading this I will keep much more detailed information. How long should I keep records before I report it? My neighbor is also witness to some of the neglects. She commented on the children wearing the same clothes repeatedly, the food around the children's mouths first thing in the morning when they arrive (BEFORE they've eaten any breakfast), the baby's uncut nails and lint balls in er neck and other things she's noticed. Should I even mention her knowledge of some things when I do report?

As for the amount she is paying. I was supposed to watch the kids for about 9 hours a day, 5 days a week, for $100 total. It is a pittance. Normally I charge $2.75/hr/child. The going rate for any daycare in town is between $2 and $3/hr. I have not found any that charge more than $3. But I wrote the contract to last only until August 30th.

eribrav · 07-02-2006, 05:34 AM

Sometimes we end up in bad situations because we just ask for them to happen. I think there are ways you could have avoided being in this very uncomfortable situation.

Specifically, why are you taking on clients at below market rates, and then allowing them to walk all over you? You should be clear on what your rates are, and the rules of your service. Be kind and considerate, but also firm and unyielding when it comes to rates and child safety issues. It sounds like you saw trouble coming from a mile away with this mother, and then you invited it right into your home at a discount rate!

Have you considered that you might get better paying, and more pleasant clients if you don't have the "true poor white trash" crowd hanging around your place?

raeanna74 · 07-02-2006, 06:31 AM

I do have better playing clients that I've worked with for nearly 4 years each. I have one client though who is a teacher and does not work during the summer. So I end up with a gap in my income. I figured with this that I would end up with a little bit of income to cover that gap without sacrificing my openings for the client that I prefer. I only plan to have this woman for about 2 more months. I was not aware when I agreed to watch her kids that she was on welfare, or that her husband was living with a girlfriend. I knew she'd been out of work for 3 months because she'd chosen to stay home with her baby daughter after she was born. I had assumed that the woman's husband was assisting her in this. I did not know that she was so terribly neglectful of these children.

I am not posting this primarily to gripe. I'm concerned about the situation these kids are in but unsure how much to say to Social Services and how soon.

Daniel_ · 07-02-2006, 08:17 AM

Tell them everything at once, would be my advice.

Social Services should not be seen as "The Enemy" who will do bad things - they ought to be "The Good Guys" who look out for the kids - because it seems that the family in this case can't or won't look out for their own kids.

Just suppose for a moment that the worst happens and one of the kids is really ill, or hurt in a neglect incident by the family - maybe the older kid pokes the youngest kids eye out "for shits and giggles" - it seems like they are the type that have little or no empathy, and hardly a sense of consequences.

What happens to you?

Firstly the local news runs the "Unlicenced Daycare Scandal" story.

Then they do the "Carer Knew But Did Nothing" angle.

And so on.

At the end of the day you have to go to bed and live in peace with yourself. Can you say honestly that you feel happy knowing that these kids are bedding down in filthy clothes, having had McFood?

If the clothes are rancid, what are the bedsheets like?

I know it's hard, but if you love yourself, and love kids, you HAVE to report them. It's the only way that the family will get help, I suspect.

Gilda · 07-02-2006, 11:24 AM

Quote:

As for the amount she is paying. I was supposed to watch the kids for about 9 hours a day, 5 days a week, for $100 total.

$0.74 per hour. You were giving her a gift, and she took advantage of it.

Gilda

raeanna74 · 07-02-2006, 12:23 PM

I needed to hear all you've all said.

I think one final question. How much documentation should I have before reporting? I've had the kids for two weeks and could account for quite a bit but I don't have precise times and dates for some of it. I'm sortof thinking that once I start writing EVERYTHING I see down, that I will get the picture really quickly and I may actually know when I've got enough.

One reason I'm reticent to report anything is that Social Services in our area is notoriously lax. I am aware of one mother who had shoved her son down, mowed over him with a lawn mower and he had prosthesis for his legs below his knees as a result. Social Services had him and his next oldest sister in foster care only on Monday's through Fridays. And the woman had two more children that she had full custody of. In my opinion, she should have lost them all because of her treatment of the one. I want a strong enough case that S.S. can't ignore it and write off the situation as too minor to deal with.

sillygirl · 07-02-2006, 01:49 PM

If you've had them for two weeks and seen all this, I wouldn't necessarily wait. If it's been just within the last 14 days, I doubt that specific dates and times would be as important as you'd think. I also bet that if you sat and really thought hard about it you'd at least be able to remember what day it was you had the conversation about changing formulas, etc.

I know that while I was working in a group home, CPS in my state had some cases come through that seemed totally idiotic to me, where some cases the child NEEDED to be with us, and ended up being returned to mom and dad. I learned it had a lot to do with the caseworkers and their decisions.

If nothing is done when you report the case and the children stay with mom, continue documenting and make a report again. I know it's frustrating, and unfortunately at times it seems worthless and like you're banging your head against a wall, but think of it this way: If something were to happen to one of these kids and you hadn't made a report, you would be held partially responsible (not responsible, per se, but I'm having trouble finding the right word). This way, not only are you showing your concern about these children, but you are also covering your own ass, which is just as important. If something were to happen and anyone were to come down on you, you stand a risk of losing your own child. Also, if anything were to happen with these kids, there would be a record of the abuse/neglect already filed. See if there's a way to file a report in writing, not just over the phone if you don't trust the system that is in place.

Psycho Dad · 07-02-2006, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_

Social Services should not be seen as "The Enemy" who will do bad things - they ought to be "The Good Guys" who look out for the kids - because it seems that the family in this case can't or won't look out for their own kids.

snip

Firstly the local news runs the "Unlicenced Daycare Scandal" story.

Social services should be the good guys, but you would be amazed at how poorly they do their jobs at times. Not that they are always bad, but damn when they screw up... And not being licensed is hardly a scandal. Rarely will a provider be prosecuted for not having a license. States that require licenses or registrations do so just to keep watch on providers and quality of care, not to put people away who don't choose to get a license.

raeanna74 · 07-03-2006, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Dad

Social services should be the good guys, but you would be amazed at how poorly they do their jobs at times. Not that they are always bad, but damn when they screw up... And not being licensed is hardly a scandal. Rarely will a provider be prosecuted for not having a license. States that require licenses or registrations do so just to keep watch on providers and quality of care, not to put people away who don't choose to get a license.

We're not required to be certified (first step with fewer regulations) or liscenced (more regulations, including fenced in yard) so long as we stay within certain numbers. We're allowed 3 children 5 yrs old and under, and 6 children 6 yrs old and older. At this point I have 3 children under age 6 (two of which are part timers and not here at the same time always) and 4 children who are 6 yrs and over. So I'm well within the regulations. I make an attempt to follow all the rules that a certified daycare would be controlled by because it prevents any possible problems and creates a safer environment.

savvypup · 07-06-2006, 03:14 AM

Isn't it so sad that we have people in our society where this is the 'norm'. She probably grew up in a identical environment and is just repeating the cycle. These kids haven't a hope in hell if someone isnt willing to, on their behalf, step in and break this cycle.

When people are deprived of essential basics of life ie, hygiene, nutrition, then that's abuse and needs to be dealt with.

We as adults know this and wouldn't subject people of any age to this standard of living. We also have insight and the ability to try and change it. These kids don't.

Personally ........... I'd document everything and perhaps submit photos to back it up.

raeanna74 · 07-06-2006, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savvypup

Isn't it so sad that we have people in our society where this is the 'norm'. She probably grew up in a identical environment and is just repeating the cycle. These kids haven't a hope in hell if someone isnt willing to, on their behalf, step in and break this cycle.
...snippy

Actually, her mother and my mother were friends when we were kids. Her mother was very careful with her, made sure she was dressed cleanly, fed well, and gave her opportunities to do a lot of different things.

Also I found out that she was always in the special ed assistance classes in school, all the way through high school. She's a little lacking intelligence and it shows.

shakran · 07-06-2006, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

Actually, her mother and my mother were friends when we were kids. Her mother was very careful with her, made sure she was dressed cleanly, fed well, and gave her opportunities to do a lot of different things.

Also I found out that she was always in the special ed assistance classes in school, all the way through high school. She's a little lacking intelligence and it shows.

We're slowly getting the whole picture here. If she's borderline retarded, as her actions and history would seem to indicate, perhaps it's not that she wants to neglect the children, but genuinely does not know how to take care of them. In other words, perhaps Social Services can assign a social worker to teach her how to be a mom. Happens all the time.

Additionally, you should at minimum get certified, if for no other reason than to avoid potential legal problems. Right now if a kid gets hurt under your watch it would be VERY easy for the parent to claim "Gee I thought she was qualified and then my kid gets hurt and I find out she didn't even bother to get certified." You'd probably lose that case.

If you're subject to surprise inspections (Why does this worry you? If you're doing everything right, inspections aren't a big deal) then it helps establish a track record for you that you're running a good, non-neglectful daycare.

abaya · 07-06-2006, 02:37 PM

Document. Everything. Now. Dates, events, pictures... everything counts.

Shit, what a sucky situation. Please report it as soon as you have enough evidence, and keep yourself safe.

Those poor kids. Where the hell did she meet her husband? Is he like her, intelligence-wise? So sad... the whole thing. I don't like these kinds of stories.

But we're here for you, R... keep doing a great job, and let us know if we can help... even just with moral support.

savvypup · 07-06-2006, 03:31 PM

Quote:

We're slowly getting the whole picture here. If she's borderline retarded, as her actions and history would seem to indicate, perhaps it's not that she wants to neglect the children, but genuinely does not know how to take care of them. In other words, perhaps Social Services can assign a social worker to teach her how to be a mom. Happens all the time.

Oh I understand better now of this situation and I agree with Shakran. Lot's of people don't like to admit when they can't cope or don't even realise until help takes over. You're a good mom Raeanna and you know this isn't the right environment for these kids. I've never had any dealings with Child Services, but I would assume they'd be more willing to offer assistance then totally remove the kids unless they were in danger. Could you perhaps word it that way to Child Services - that she just needs some help?

Sadly though, I still believe that in many cases it is a cycle and I feel so sorry for the innocent kids that are along for the ride.

raeanna74 · 07-06-2006, 03:53 PM

I have no idea where she met her husband but he's gotten in trouble with the law for some VERY poorly planned arson with the purpose of insurance fraud. She btw was in the car with him and the kids when he committed this crime.

I like the idea of wording this for Social services that she needs assistance and not necessarily removal. I think that would be better for all involved judging by what I know of the situation.

As for getting certified. My main reason is that I would get many more requests from people who desire child care assistance. I have been willing to do this for people before who do not have child care assistance but want to apply for it. Every last time that I agree to go through the application process, before I can even fill out all the forms and file them the people, EVERY last one, get fired, get arrested, loose their kids to social services, or quit their job. Also every one of them have failed to pay the last couple days worth of care that they agreed to pay when they signed my contract.

In my contract it states that I am not a certified or liscenced daycare so no one could claim that they did not know. Also my homeowners insurance agent insures my childcare for quite a lot to cover damages to the home, lawsuits, accidents involving the children, etc. He came and inspected the home and felt it was safe and satisfactory. Unannounced inspections is only a minor reason because it would be an interruption, irritation, and also - I am homeschooling my daughter. Though homeschooling is becoming more accepted there is a bit of prejudice against homeschooling and a history or prosecution of those who homeschool. I know this rare happens anymore but I grew up with the homeschool crowd who's parents were imprisoned for homeschooling (and do not think there was anything they did except for pull their kids from public school). There's just plenty of reason that I'd prefer to keep my childcare self-controlled.

On a side note - I hope you all don't think I'm intentionally giving only a part of the picture. Some of the things you mention I haven't even thought of yet. Also I only discovered this last bit of info regarding the girls special ed schooling from my mother recently. I knew mom had been asked to help tutor the girl for a while but I didn't realize it was for this reason. I thought it was just some trouble that she was having with particular classes. Come to find out she never even got algebra in high school. It was basic math skills all through.

savvypup · 07-08-2006, 12:15 AM

I for one never thought you weren't telling the whole picture, only the picture as you see it. Keep us posted!

As for the getting certified, as long as you're covered in someway for any 'abuse' as such. The last thing you need is to be persecuted for something that is she said, you said. I know here in Australia, the whole public liability has gone haywire. People sue for everything and anything now.

thespian86 · 07-11-2006, 05:22 PM

Hey Raeanna; how about an update? I've been checking up to see how this is playing out.

Brewmaniac · 07-26-2006, 06:59 AM

raeanna, I'm still curious, how did you resolve this. Are you still caring for these kids?

"Inquiring minds want to know"

Daniel_ · 07-26-2006, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Dad

Social services should be the good guys, but you would be amazed at how poorly they do their jobs at times. Not that they are always bad, but damn when they screw up... And not being licensed is hardly a scandal. Rarely will a provider be prosecuted for not having a license. States that require licenses or registrations do so just to keep watch on providers and quality of care, not to put people away who don't choose to get a license.

Only just come back to this thread and seen this response, Psycho.

In the UK you have to have a licence before you are allowed to run a daycare or childcare service.

Didn't realise that the US was that different.

Psycho Dad · 07-26-2006, 04:32 PM

Not only is it different in the states, it varies from state to state.

thespian86 · 07-26-2006, 05:50 PM

Eastern canada seems to be loose about that. my SO's mother does it for a living and she is certainly not liscensed

level five · 07-27-2006, 03:22 AM

i've heard that the size of the operatio often has something to do with the need for certification. something like more than five kids or so.

07-01-2006, 05:54 AM	#1 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	How much is too much? Calling child services 1. The kids are never washed or changed. All three have worn the same outfit at least 2 days in a row for EACH outfit they've ever worn here. The baby wore the same outfit that I sent her home in the very next day 3 times in a row. This means that the only time she gets clean clothes are when I change them and she's not gotten a bath any of those nights. The baby spits up a lot with the formular and bottles mom uses so she gets quite stinky. I gave the baby a full bath yesterday. I also trimmed the babies nails last week when she was continuously scratching her own face with these long DIRTY nails. 2. The two older children are more trouble than their worth. I allowed the kids to play in the pool today and when they finally got out I felt like I'd been sucked dry by a vampire. I had to watch them 100% of the time and even then the girl especially was furtively looking to see if I was aware of her mean pranks. She was either doing something mean or screaming at the top of her lungs at someone else (usually over absolutely nothing) the entire time. She was NEVER quiet. I made each of them get out for stints sitting and watching the other's play as punishment for bad behavior. The girl hit two kids yesterday, dumped water over a child (who was not in a swimsuit), and deliberately broke a toy yesterday. When I told the mother she just said "oh Hmm." and never said a word to the daughter. 3. The father was supposed to take the kids for the weekend and I was supposed to have yesterday off. Since he and his girlfriend were getting evicted yesterday (as told to me by his wife) they could not keep the kids so I got them at 5:00am until 4:00pm. 4. The mother is never home on time. She has no concept of time either. If she gets off at 3:00 she will tell me that she is going to pick them up at 3:00. When in actuallity she works 30 min away and will really be able to pick them up at 3:30. She also claims that she cannot get from work to here in less than 45 min. She works fairly close to where hubby works and he is home like clockwork in 25-30 min every day even despite the construction he must navigate. She is usually here 30 min later than she could be. On Wednesday this week she called me at 4:00 to ask if I would watch the kids for an extra 1 1/2 hrs that day. Which interpreted means 2 hours extra. I told her no as I had already kept them for 11 hours that day alone. She had someone else pick them up. That particular person was true poor white trash. Filthy mouth, dirty clothes, car littered with fast food and cigarrette junk, and the car looked like she'd dragged it from the junk yard. She was late too. 5. I originally had agreed to only watch from 6:30 till 3:30pm for $100/week. Plus she had agreed to bring groceries. She did not bring many groceries to speak of. Just 2 boxes of cereal and a pack of pudding cups in 2 weeks. Finally after she informed me that she was going to 10 hr days I changed the contract to a different hourly arrangement at a slightly higher rate. This would account for a lack of groceries, her tardiness, and the added hours. She complained several times before finally signing the contract. Then she asked me what kind of groceries would I have wanted, she "didn't know what to fix for the kids for lunches." The oldest is 7 yrs old. What HAS she been feeding him? 6. The father just finished a second sentence in prison about a year ago. He has not been in these children's lives hardly at all and when he has it's been basically only long enough to create another child. 7. The mother was in special ed classes in highschool so one might think she just didn't know any better. My mother and aunt have both babysat for her for years and both have attempted to teach her HOW to care for the children better. She argues that she likes how she does things and does not want to change. I suggested a different formula because the infant seems to spit up half her bottle every time she eats. The mother argued with me, That how ALL my children did. Soooo? They all had a problem. And she shrugged, and turned her back on me. 8. The mother rarely holds the baby. I've tried handing the baby too her and she turns away or crosses her arms. I pretty much have to load her car and put the baby in the car seat and into the car myself. I have to make sure the kids have their shoes on too - IF they brought any. She has brought them half the time with no shoes at all. She says that it's the kids fault for loosing them. But the girl is only 6 yrs old. My daughter looses her shoes too (she'll be 6 in 2 weeks) and every other 6 yr old that I know of are REALLY good at loosing things. It's the parents job to make the kid go look for things. Yes I have considered calling Child services for this situation. I know I would be able to make an annonymous report or at the very least they would not inform the mother WHO reported her. Unfortunately I'm afraid that the Dad will be asked to take the kid, since the Mom and Dad are separated and in the middle of a divorce. I think he'd be a worse parent than the Mom. He has also been attempting to convince the Mom to say that he is still living with her so that he won't have to pay child support. He's also in and out of their house, moving in when it's convenient. So even if he had the kids he'd be dropping them off with mom or moving in with mom eventually. If I could be sure that neither of the parents would be caring for the kids then I would call. I'm also reticent to call without much concrete evidence. A person coming in to see the baby would see a happy, chubby, relatively healthy baby that was stinky but spits up a lot. The girl has already gotten in trouble for shoplifting and the boy has gotten in trouble for setting a fire at school. The woman is on Welfare, food stamps and WIC so I'm sure she gets checked on a little. The baby gets a checkup every other time she picks up her WIC check. I know how that system works. Do I personally have anything concrete enough? I know the home is a wreck, I've seen it before. How do I document this? How much is too much neglect? Where does one draw the line? __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma. Last edited by raeanna74; 07-01-2006 at 06:01 AM.. Reason: typos

07-01-2006, 06:25 AM	#2 (permalink)
Brewmaniac Searching for the perfect brew!	As horrible as this situation is I don't think that within the "system" we have now, unfortunately I don't think calling child & family services would do anything. She is feeding them, clothing them(although their dirty) and providing them with excellent care while at work. I think that CFS would say she is doing better than many. As sad as it makes us I think that's the reality of things. I feel bad for you, it must be very frustrating. You are kind to put up with the BS the mother pulls on you. I'm glad you made her change the contract. Make her stick to it. People like her shouldn't be blessed with such gifts! __________________ "That's a joke... I say, that's a joke, son" Last edited by Brewmaniac; 07-01-2006 at 06:34 AM..

07-01-2006, 06:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	Yeah, it's amazing. She gets to take like 20% of her normal pay for these kids. They are rude, and inconsiderate. I was talking to Raeanna when I got home from work, and the boy was all up in my face wanting to show me this computer game that a kid gave him. Believe me, I have little to no patience in this situation. Just ask Raeanna! We've been helped a little bit in tight financial situations, so she felt a little bit like this could be the "pay it forward" kind of thing. In this case...it's NOT worth it. She's hesitant to pay!!! Tried to get out of coming over here on Friday to pay Raeanna for one week of child care, when we'd provided two. Supposedly, she'll catch up this coming Friday. We'll see. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

07-01-2006, 06:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
Psycho Dad Mulletproof Location: Some nucking fut house.	I don't know what state you are in, but if you are not registered or licensed as a childcare provider, I suggest you get registered or licensed. Being licensed or registered opens the door to many resources for you in a case like this depending on what state you are in. But with licensing or registering you are also considered a mandated reporter and have to report things of this nature. If there is a Head Start or Early Head Start in your area and you are partnered with them the expenses of care would be paid to you by them and the mother would receive instruction on how to be a better parent. My wife works for Early Head Start and goes through this stuff all the time. Edit: I guess your state is in you user profile. __________________ Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

07-01-2006, 08:02 PM	#6 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I have not gotten certified because it's harder to turn away the welfare cases when I simply don't want to deal with them. Also I have more welfare cases that want to use my services because they can get child care support from Social Services. Also getting certified costs about $45 a year and opens you to surprise inspections. The forms to apply for certification are about 15 pages long as well. I got them and even filled them out but decided against it because of the red tape, hassle, and the magnet I'd become for trash like this. Yet here I am with this mother. Though I wouldn't be if I hadn't known her years ago. Anyone, whether they are a lisenced, certified, or neither (as far as I know) are required to report abuse. It's been about 4 years since I took a class that went over all that. I do not remember how much neglect we're required to report. How much is too much? I do not want to be a whistle blower if the situation is really minor and cause someone undo trouble with social services. Though even as I say this I realize this isn't minor neglect. I have been keeping some record of things. I think after reading this I will keep much more detailed information. How long should I keep records before I report it? My neighbor is also witness to some of the neglects. She commented on the children wearing the same clothes repeatedly, the food around the children's mouths first thing in the morning when they arrive (BEFORE they've eaten any breakfast), the baby's uncut nails and lint balls in er neck and other things she's noticed. Should I even mention her knowledge of some things when I do report? As for the amount she is paying. I was supposed to watch the kids for about 9 hours a day, 5 days a week, for $100 total. It is a pittance. Normally I charge $2.75/hr/child. The going rate for any daycare in town is between $2 and $3/hr. I have not found any that charge more than $3. But I wrote the contract to last only until August 30th. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma. Last edited by raeanna74; 07-01-2006 at 08:10 PM..

07-01-2006, 06:54 PM	#5 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	Three kids, seven hours a day, for $100. That's . . . $0.95 per child per hour. Unless that's per child, which is still less than $3 per chld per hour. Now, if you are not doing so already, start documenting everything. Every time they come to daycare in the same clothes two days in a row, write it down. Every time they come in dirty clothes, write it down. Every time they are late, write it down. If the baby is spitting up excessively, start taking notes on that. If you ask her to change formulas, make note of the date and time of the conversation and what happened. You can get contact record sheets at a school supply store, but a notebook works just as well. You need to start preparing now for the possibility that you may need to call social services sometime in the future. Contemporary notes can serve as evidence of observed neglect. If, on the other hand, you were just venting, I can see why you're upset, and I have to agree that this group seems like far more trouble than they are worth. I hope things get better for you soon. Gilda

07-02-2006, 05:34 AM	#7 (permalink)
eribrav Junkie Location: upstate NY	Sometimes we end up in bad situations because we just ask for them to happen. I think there are ways you could have avoided being in this very uncomfortable situation. Specifically, why are you taking on clients at below market rates, and then allowing them to walk all over you? You should be clear on what your rates are, and the rules of your service. Be kind and considerate, but also firm and unyielding when it comes to rates and child safety issues. It sounds like you saw trouble coming from a mile away with this mother, and then you invited it right into your home at a discount rate! Have you considered that you might get better paying, and more pleasant clients if you don't have the "true poor white trash" crowd hanging around your place?

07-02-2006, 06:31 AM	#8 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I do have better playing clients that I've worked with for nearly 4 years each. I have one client though who is a teacher and does not work during the summer. So I end up with a gap in my income. I figured with this that I would end up with a little bit of income to cover that gap without sacrificing my openings for the client that I prefer. I only plan to have this woman for about 2 more months. I was not aware when I agreed to watch her kids that she was on welfare, or that her husband was living with a girlfriend. I knew she'd been out of work for 3 months because she'd chosen to stay home with her baby daughter after she was born. I had assumed that the woman's husband was assisting her in this. I did not know that she was so terribly neglectful of these children. I am not posting this primarily to gripe. I'm concerned about the situation these kids are in but unsure how much to say to Social Services and how soon. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

07-02-2006, 08:17 AM	#9 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	Tell them everything at once, would be my advice. Social Services should not be seen as "The Enemy" who will do bad things - they ought to be "The Good Guys" who look out for the kids - because it seems that the family in this case can't or won't look out for their own kids. Just suppose for a moment that the worst happens and one of the kids is really ill, or hurt in a neglect incident by the family - maybe the older kid pokes the youngest kids eye out "for shits and giggles" - it seems like they are the type that have little or no empathy, and hardly a sense of consequences. What happens to you? Firstly the local news runs the "Unlicenced Daycare Scandal" story. Then they do the "Carer Knew But Did Nothing" angle. And so on. At the end of the day you have to go to bed and live in peace with yourself. Can you say honestly that you feel happy knowing that these kids are bedding down in filthy clothes, having had McFood? If the clothes are rancid, what are the bedsheets like? I know it's hard, but if you love yourself, and love kids, you HAVE to report them. It's the only way that the family will get help, I suspect. __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

07-02-2006, 12:23 PM	#11 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I needed to hear all you've all said. I think one final question. How much documentation should I have before reporting? I've had the kids for two weeks and could account for quite a bit but I don't have precise times and dates for some of it. I'm sortof thinking that once I start writing EVERYTHING I see down, that I will get the picture really quickly and I may actually know when I've got enough. One reason I'm reticent to report anything is that Social Services in our area is notoriously lax. I am aware of one mother who had shoved her son down, mowed over him with a lawn mower and he had prosthesis for his legs below his knees as a result. Social Services had him and his next oldest sister in foster care only on Monday's through Fridays. And the woman had two more children that she had full custody of. In my opinion, she should have lost them all because of her treatment of the one. I want a strong enough case that S.S. can't ignore it and write off the situation as too minor to deal with. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

07-02-2006, 01:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
sillygirl Newlywed Location: at home	If you've had them for two weeks and seen all this, I wouldn't necessarily wait. If it's been just within the last 14 days, I doubt that specific dates and times would be as important as you'd think. I also bet that if you sat and really thought hard about it you'd at least be able to remember what day it was you had the conversation about changing formulas, etc. I know that while I was working in a group home, CPS in my state had some cases come through that seemed totally idiotic to me, where some cases the child NEEDED to be with us, and ended up being returned to mom and dad. I learned it had a lot to do with the caseworkers and their decisions. If nothing is done when you report the case and the children stay with mom, continue documenting and make a report again. I know it's frustrating, and unfortunately at times it seems worthless and like you're banging your head against a wall, but think of it this way: If something were to happen to one of these kids and you hadn't made a report, you would be held partially responsible (not responsible, per se, but I'm having trouble finding the right word). This way, not only are you showing your concern about these children, but you are also covering your own ass, which is just as important. If something were to happen and anyone were to come down on you, you stand a risk of losing your own child. Also, if anything were to happen with these kids, there would be a record of the abuse/neglect already filed. See if there's a way to file a report in writing, not just over the phone if you don't trust the system that is in place. __________________ Anyone can be passionate, but it takes real lovers to be silly-Rose Franken ....absence makes me miss him more...

07-06-2006, 03:14 AM	#15 (permalink)
savvypup Crazy Location: Want to run away? Follow the light	Isn't it so sad that we have people in our society where this is the 'norm'. She probably grew up in a identical environment and is just repeating the cycle. These kids haven't a hope in hell if someone isnt willing to, on their behalf, step in and break this cycle. When people are deprived of essential basics of life ie, hygiene, nutrition, then that's abuse and needs to be dealt with. We as adults know this and wouldn't subject people of any age to this standard of living. We also have insight and the ability to try and change it. These kids don't. Personally ........... I'd document everything and perhaps submit photos to back it up. __________________ ciao bella!

07-06-2006, 02:37 PM	#18 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	Document. Everything. Now. Dates, events, pictures... everything counts. Shit, what a sucky situation. Please report it as soon as you have enough evidence, and keep yourself safe. Those poor kids. Where the hell did she meet her husband? Is he like her, intelligence-wise? So sad... the whole thing. I don't like these kinds of stories. But we're here for you, R... keep doing a great job, and let us know if we can help... even just with moral support. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

07-06-2006, 03:53 PM	#20 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I have no idea where she met her husband but he's gotten in trouble with the law for some VERY poorly planned arson with the purpose of insurance fraud. She btw was in the car with him and the kids when he committed this crime. I like the idea of wording this for Social services that she needs assistance and not necessarily removal. I think that would be better for all involved judging by what I know of the situation. As for getting certified. My main reason is that I would get many more requests from people who desire child care assistance. I have been willing to do this for people before who do not have child care assistance but want to apply for it. Every last time that I agree to go through the application process, before I can even fill out all the forms and file them the people, EVERY last one, get fired, get arrested, loose their kids to social services, or quit their job. Also every one of them have failed to pay the last couple days worth of care that they agreed to pay when they signed my contract. In my contract it states that I am not a certified or liscenced daycare so no one could claim that they did not know. Also my homeowners insurance agent insures my childcare for quite a lot to cover damages to the home, lawsuits, accidents involving the children, etc. He came and inspected the home and felt it was safe and satisfactory. Unannounced inspections is only a minor reason because it would be an interruption, irritation, and also - I am homeschooling my daughter. Though homeschooling is becoming more accepted there is a bit of prejudice against homeschooling and a history or prosecution of those who homeschool. I know this rare happens anymore but I grew up with the homeschool crowd who's parents were imprisoned for homeschooling (and do not think there was anything they did except for pull their kids from public school). There's just plenty of reason that I'd prefer to keep my childcare self-controlled. On a side note - I hope you all don't think I'm intentionally giving only a part of the picture. Some of the things you mention I haven't even thought of yet. Also I only discovered this last bit of info regarding the girls special ed schooling from my mother recently. I knew mom had been asked to help tutor the girl for a while but I didn't realize it was for this reason. I thought it was just some trouble that she was having with particular classes. Come to find out she never even got algebra in high school. It was basic math skills all through. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma. Last edited by raeanna74; 07-06-2006 at 03:59 PM..

07-08-2006, 12:15 AM	#21 (permalink)
savvypup Crazy Location: Want to run away? Follow the light	I for one never thought you weren't telling the whole picture, only the picture as you see it. Keep us posted! As for the getting certified, as long as you're covered in someway for any 'abuse' as such. The last thing you need is to be persecuted for something that is she said, you said. I know here in Australia, the whole public liability has gone haywire. People sue for everything and anything now. __________________ ciao bella!

07-11-2006, 05:22 PM	#22 (permalink)
thespian86 change is hard. Location: the green room.	Hey Raeanna; how about an update? I've been checking up to see how this is playing out. __________________ EX: Whats new? ME: I officially love coffee more then you now. EX: uh... ME: So, not much.

07-26-2006, 06:59 AM	#23 (permalink)
Brewmaniac Searching for the perfect brew!	raeanna, I'm still curious, how did you resolve this. Are you still caring for these kids? "Inquiring minds want to know" __________________ "That's a joke... I say, that's a joke, son"

07-26-2006, 04:32 PM	#25 (permalink)
Psycho Dad Mulletproof Location: Some nucking fut house.	Not only is it different in the states, it varies from state to state. __________________ Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

07-26-2006, 05:50 PM	#26 (permalink)
thespian86 change is hard. Location: the green room.	Eastern canada seems to be loose about that. my SO's mother does it for a living and she is certainly not liscensed __________________ EX: Whats new? ME: I officially love coffee more then you now. EX: uh... ME: So, not much.

07-27-2006, 03:22 AM	#27 (permalink)
level five Banned	i've heard that the size of the operatio often has something to do with the need for certification. something like more than five kids or so.