amire

Hey, everyone. I can't tell you what a wonderful joy it has been to come to the TFP over the last few years and participate in some really interesting, intelligent, and -- most importantly -- civil conversation. I'm in a bit of a quandary, and I'm wondering what experiences or advice you guys have had in the past with this type of thing. I HATE reading really long posts, so I'll try to be as concise as I can be.

In a nutshell, I am losing faith in my religion -- Christianity -- and I am very concerned about how this will affect my life in terms of my relationships with my family and friends. I am not too worried about how it will affect my morals or actions...I'm rather excited about the implications, as a matter of fact. But I'm very worried about the social and familial aspect.

I'll deal with the easier case, first: my friends. Over the past years in my life, my closest friends have come from the church. My first crush was on a girl in Sunday School class. My first date was with a girl I met in church. Every summer was spent at a Christian retreat and on a missions trip. Every Friday night was spent with Christian friends I had met in the church. In effect, Christianity was my social outlet. The church was like a home. Now that I'm pushing away from it, I'm worried that relationships with my friends will fracture.

Many of my church friends did have non-Christian friends, but this is slightly different, as we related on a spiritual level. How do I tell my friends about the change in my life? Do I tell them at all? Some of them will HONESTLY, GENUINELY believe that I am going to Hell, and they will LITERALLY WEEP for me if I tell them...what should I do?

The answer seems relatively obvious...get new friends. I am in college, seven hours away from home. So I can easily find new social outlets and meet new people. I have already started. But still...I don't know what I should do about my friends at home.

My main concern is my family. They raised me in the church from infancy. My parents are the kindest, sweetest people I know, and I do not want to hurt them. I can't imagine how much it will pain them to hear that I no longer am a Christian. Again...they will never stop worrying about me and feeling awful about my decision. They are very loving people and would NOT ostracize me...but I worry that I would hurt them incredibly.

So what should I do? Should I simply not tell them and put on an act forever? Should I just tell them outright? I feel that it would be a huge blow to them...I don't feel right dealing the blow.

There are obviously a lot of other issues involved in losing a religion. Where do my morals come from, now? How do I stop feeling GUILTY about a lot of things I do? Will Sunday EVER be a normal day for me? How do I deal with death? It's interesting, because I feel that those are probably more important questions in the long run, but right now they take a back seat to the immediate consequences. I'll learn to answer those questions with time. But these immediate questions are hard to deal with because I have no other EXPERIENCE interacting with my family and friends outside of Christianity.

Thank you SO much for listening to this long-winded post. I greatly look forward to hearing your advice and anecdotes.

If my search missed a thread similar to this one, please close it and direct me to the right one! I did a search, but the index is down, as many know, so I didn't get any relevant hits.

Thanks again!

cierah

I think the main point here is that you are giving up on organized RELIGION and not spirituality. A lot of very spritual people can (and often are) mistaken for people involved in organized religion. I don't think there is any pressing need to literally come out and TELL anyone that you are no longer a Christian. Some people, someday may be able to tell but generally I don't think people will out and out notice the change because, like I said, you are still a spiritual person and the decision will not affect your morality so much as it affects your daily habits (IE not going to church).

Hopefully, that makes some sense!

__________________
"You can close your eyes to reality but not to memories" -Stainslaw J. Lec

ASU2003

Do you know what is really going on, and why it is? I didn't get that part of the equation from your post.

Do you still believe in the teachings of the church, or have you turned into an agnostic/atheist person? Do you still believe in a higher power, are you not sure, do you think that we are in control of ourselves and everything is made up of molecules and chemical reactions?

First, you need to take a few days and find yourself and what you believe in. You can take some advice and get input from all sources, but make up your mind first. Don’t think about the negative consequences in your future at this stage. You can talk to a priest about it, or watch movies like ‘What The Bleep Do We Know’, ‘Passion of the Christ’, and ‘Contact’. Figure out what you don’t like about (organized) religion. Drive outside of the city one night and sit in a field and think, how did this all get created and how big it all is. Do some thinking for yourself, study all of the different religions and keep an open mind. The church doesn’t want people who are faking it just to fit in, well maybe they do. But people do change over time, and what you believe today might be different than what you think in 20 years.

And now to the consequences in your life… Figure out what would happen if you slowly pulled away from going to church. Would they notice? What would happen if you stopped going to church, but still believed in the same stuff. I always said I was praying enough at the golf course on Sundays to cover church growing up. Could you still go to the church groups with your friends, but not go to mass? Maybe you could try the atheist/agnostic life for 3-6 months and see what happens in your life. Would they accept you back in? If your parents start asking questions, just say you are trying to figure out what role religion will play in your life. It has to be your decision, but don’t make the mistake of saying that their choice or lifestyle is wrong. I still go to mass with my family on Christmas and Easter (and weddings and funerals).

From my agnostic viewpoint*. (Something of a higher power had to have something to do with starting everything and all of the matter in the universe, but doesn’t control people or has any influence on their lives.) Death is just stopping the electrical signals in the brain. It is like turning off a computer. But eventually the molecules in the body will turn into dust (or get eaten by other creatures), and eventually be used by living things once again. The human body is 70% water, and my H20 molecules have been inside other plant or animals cells at one point or another. And they will be in other plants and animals in the future. Queues up Kansas – Dust In The Wind on my mp3 player…

Or maybe Earth is the Hell for some alien species.

Sunday is a normal day for me. It is just like a second Saturday.

3Z3VH

If they no longer want to associate with you because you aren't going to church every Sunday, that is just sad. If that isn't the case, then the most you need to tell them is that you aren't going on Sundays anymore. Family is family, and friends are friends. Religion may be how you met them, or a topic of conversation once in a while, but I don't see how your change in beliefs means they can no longer interact with you. As for your family, the best way to break it to them is to have them come to realise it on their own. If you simply stop going to church, and don't put on any sort of act that you are still Christian, they will gradually learn that your beliefs have changed, and when they finally realise the full truth, the blow will not be such a shock.

I would say don't lie to anyone about it, or put on any sort of act. At the same time, do not bring attention to the fact that you have lost that belief. They will come to the conclusion on their own, in a much less shocking way than you "coming clean" all of a sudden.

As far as your own feelings, you go with what you believe, and you will actually learn that though your church did teach you most of your moral lessons, you would have learned them anyway, without the church. Just because you don't read these moral lessons in the BIBLE doesn't mean that you won't find the same moral lessons elsewhere such as regular books, quality film, and simply life experiences. If someone does something to you that really sucks, you learn not to do it to someone else out of not wanting to make them feel as you felt. Just keep your eyes open to the world around you and the moral lessons will come from the most unexpected places. If it feels wrong to do it, simply don't do it

amire

Thanks for your responses, guys.

ASU2003: I tried to keep stating my specific beliefs to a minimum, as this isn't the philosophy section and that's not really the subject of the post. BUT, if you believe it's relevent, I'm basically of the atheist viewpoint. There is meaning to life, but that meaning is what we humans give it. I also think that we are our own masters of our fate...can't count on luck or a higher power for success or happiness.

I've definitely already done the introspection you asked about. I've been considering it for years. People's reactions will not change what I believe...just how much I state my beliefs.

Cierah: I wholeheartedly agree that there's no reason to come out and tell people that I've left the faith. But I probably will be faced with people asking me how I like the churches in my college town, asking why I've missed church, etc. I don't know how to be honest without hurting anyone.

3Z3VH: I agree that those who don't associate with others if they change beliefs are shallow. I doubt my friends would turn from me...but I worry about causing them pain. I also agree very much that I've learned a lot of moral lessons from the church...I wouldn't be who I am today without it. I've learned a LOT about tolerance, mainly, and also about being unselfish. Definitely valuable lessons.

Thanks, guys!

ASU2003

Just say that they aren't as good as the church back home, and the people aren't the same. Just tell me you aren't going to Notre Dame or something like that.

SaltPork

If you're really concerned why don't you take some time to talk to your pastor about it? I've been kind of going through the whole thing myself lately, and I've decided that my problem isn't with my faith, it's an issue more with organized religion. I'm not quite past it all yet and I'm still trying to figure some things out, but I think if you have a talk with someone that can be objective about where you stand it might help. Good luck finding your way.

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It was like that when I got here....I swear.

Willravel

I am the son of a conservative pastor. I'm also losing, or have lost my faith. Why? Well that's the simple part. So what do I do about it? I live my life. If my religous friends choose to judge me, then they do. I have little or no control over what they think or feel. They are more than welcome to their opinions. I've spoken to my father at length about my feelings on religion (it can be helpful to some, but it doesn't make sense for me), and he accepts my beliefs.

It's up to you how to deal with those who do not so readily accept your way of living. Just as people deal with racism, sexism, and other bigotry, you may have to deal with theological or philosophical prejuduce. That, as they say, is a part of life.

I eat, exercise, spend time with my family, read, meditate (one can be spiritual without going to church after all), and such on Sundays.

Poppinjay

Wow.

I hoped willravel would give you some hope. He's so smart. I read his stuff regularly.

That said.... you'd be good to follow his advice, but I want you to understand something. The church loves you and accepts you.


Omigod he's all Falwell on me... no. It doesn't matter what you've done. What you feel is the right thing to follow. If you need a bibilical constraint:


That's all sins. Including this one I just had where I thought of cute liberalas!

And this one where I thougt of J lo for a second.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Sho Nuff

I went through the same thing 6 years ago. I was in seminary when I left the faith. I got by telling my mother a partial truth. I told her that the church as it stands is not the church described in the Bible and until I found one that was I would study the word on my own. My mother still like to believe that I am saved. I gloss over the issue and she chooses not to press it. I dont lead prayer at family gatherings anymore. I do what I feel is right, realizing that right and wrong are relative. Recently, I've gone back to reading the Bible and realized how wrong the church got it. The words of the Bible were written by great men, so much so that man believed the words to come for the creator of all things. But despite that reverence, they can't live by the message.

Since leaving the church a man that was like a brother to me turned away. I respect what he stands for, but I think he like the rest got it wrong. Many others from my church though have also left in recent years. I even dated one of them for a while.

It was hard to build a morality for the first time at the age of twenty. I did a lot of stupid things while forming my own identity, but I am a much stronger man because of it.

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I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

Sage

I used to be very, very Christian. This created a very special bond between myself and my mother, who is also very Christian. However, when Martel and I started dating my philosophies changed very much and I no longer am a "Christian."

It's not like being gay. There's no big family meeting where you tell everyone at the same time. Hell, I don't tell my family, they don't ask. I talk to my mom about religion, but I always drop hints and so she thinks I'm still Christian. I'm fine with that, I don't feel bad for doing so. Telling her my true beliefs would have her convinced that I've gone completely nuts. She is VERY Baptist. To the point where she doesn't go to church because she believes that the Bible cannot be interpreted by man and must be taught "purely in wholeness."

How many other religions have you studied? Part of what helped me shape my own world view was having a very clear understanding of other religions, philosophies, opnions, psychologies, and facts. It's not a bad thing to change your opnion, it's a GOOD thing. You're not blindly following what someone else is dishing out, you're forging your own path and saying "Alright, what do I Believe?" Everyone has to find their own way. Another suggestion I would make would be to look for a Unity church (NOT Unitarian). My Aunt and Uncle go to a Unity church and they like it very much, as it doesn't teach a specific religious doctrine but instead focuses on looking at all the doctrines and philosophies and letting each person come to their own conclusion. It's like a big religious discussion group, as far as I can tell.

I also came to a lot of conclusions by reading Alan Watts. I find his views on things to make A LOT of sense and mirror mine closely.

Just remember, your inner moral philosophy doesn't make you a "good" or "bad" person. It's just who you are. You're still you same old self, you're still your mother's son and your friends' friend. You just live your life and let them live theirs- if they love you the way the Bible tells them to, then your personal beliefs won't get in the way of that love. And, like I said, you don't have to tell them. In fact, you shouldn't tell them unless you feel like it. I consider my spirituality to be a highly personal thing and don't go around explaining my personal beliefs to everyone; you shouldn't have to do so in order to feel at peace either. Best of luck

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analog

If you tell your friends, and some of them walk away from you, then the only thing that made them a "friend" was the fact that you shared the same religion. Those are friends you can afford to lose, no problem. Sure, they'll tell you that you're going to hell, they'll cry for you, whatever, but you need to take care of you- and that includes getting over the zealots who cry and tell someone they're going to hell because they're no longer part of the same organized religion. Those are not friends- those are people who suckle to your personality because you share the same religion.

I know it sounds kind of harsh to be saying they aren't your friends... but if that's their reaction, then they simply are not your friends, and that's all there is to it. You will have become, simply, an enemy of their religion by not being a friend of it.

Just take care, and you'll find new friends who aren't so judgmental and flighty.

Willravel

Don't take my last post to be anti-Christian. I still have all my christian friends and my relatives are still all religous. My mom is Catholic, my dad is Lutheran, etc., etc. I do, however, understand that a few religous people will resent or dislike those who have left religon. Not all white people hate black people, but a few do.

My point is that you have to decide for yourself. I'll respect you either way. I respect anyone willing to question or re-examins (sp?) themselves in order to better themselves.

Poppin: Falwell? You mean Jerry Falwell? I see myself as the anti-Falwell. Let homosexuals be homosexual, let Clinton be Clinton, and let Penthouse be Penthouse (I'd love to be parodied in Penthouse).

snowy

Unitarian Universalists do the same thing, for the most part.

Since you're in college take the opportunity to take a few philosophy courses. You might find something that makes the way clear for you.

Speaking from personal experience (as the ex-girlfriend of a man who lied about his faith consistently to his mother), DON'T LIE. It just makes you look bad to other people who know about the situation. It was one of the things that absolutely drove me crazy about my ex. He went to church every Sunday like a good little sheep while at home even though at college he was a hard-core atheist. DON'T DO IT. If you can't be honest with other people about your situation, you're sacrificing a part of yourself over the long term. Some people feel like they should lie to their parents or do what their parents want just for the sake of not making waves. If your parents truly love you, regardless of religion, and are good parents, then telling them the truth about your faith and belief system will work out over the long run.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Sage

I am not lying to my mom. I am just skirting the issue, trying not to have huge religious debates with her, and not provoking any conversations that I can guess the outcome of. I never went to church as a sheep after I stopped being a Christian- at least not with my parents. If my mother were to ask me what I believed, I would tell her, but she hasn't, so I don't feel the need to.

I'm not saying you should lie. I'm saying that if you don't want to make waves, don't do anything that would rock the boat. If you go home for visits, leave before Sunday (Martel and I have taken to doing this when visiting his parents) or early Sunday morning before church. If you're asked to pray, say the most generic prayer you can think of. Martel's parents still ask him to pray every now and then, and he does the most generic prayer ever. We like to laugh in the silliness of organized religion together, and when we have to do something in order to make someone else happy, we think it's funny- like a game.

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ASU2003

What happens if they are bad parents and shun you and kick you out of the family for your views? It's the same reason people don't bring up that they like people of the same gender, that they are in porn, or that they are in a interacial relationship. In a perfect world, your family would be accepting, or would come around in a few months. But, there are families who will never talk to their children again, or at least that is what my fear is. I'm not sure how often that happens.

analog

Yeah, see, this whole part here is all lying. You can't say you don't lie and that he shouldn't lie, and then pretend being blatantly false is "skirting" the issue. It doesn't work that way. Lying to yourself is just as bad if not worse than lying to other people.

Rodney

Me, I'd just be straight with them. Tell 'em, I don't have the faith; I'm going to explore life without it. Tell them that faith can't answer all the questions that you have.

Yes, the family will hate it. Yes, there'll be much commotion. But how will they feel about you if you lie to them for 10 years, and then they find out? Will they think you've been a true son by lying to them?

This must be a very conservative form of Christianity; because frankly, old-line Protestant denominations, and even the Catholics, pretty much accept that most youth will stop going to church in their late teens and _mayb e_ come back in their 30s or 40s. That's just the way life is.

I read a "how to be a pastor" book from 100 years ago once, and it said, "You're gonna lose a lot of them at 15, but don't sweat it; most of them will be back someday." The way so many conservative churches try to keep a tight grip on the kiddies through college and beyond is mainly a phenom of the last 25-30 years or so.

I'm not saying you're going to pop back to your old religion. But you might move on to some other spirituality that can coexist with your basic atheism. Religion and spirituality is about coming to terms with the universe -- and you don't have to believe in God to do that!

thingstodo

Good point.

My parents are devout southern baptists. Yet they still accept me just fine. When I visit they go about their business. And when they visit here they don't expect to head off to church Sunday morning. My mother gets up early to read her bible and I guess my father does whatever he does.

My point is, you have to be yourself and live your own life. If someone doesn't accept you perhaps that is a relationship you don't need in that specific form. People change and can become more accepting of others if they want to have the repationship.

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If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves.

Stangers have the best candy.

amire

Thanks for the support, guys. It's what I was really after, anyways.

Yes, the form of Christianity I'm leaving is quite conservative. My family is Evangelical, and right now we're at a Presbyterian church. They're pretty strict about how they interpret scripture.

I guess I'm just going to have to slowly change my habits over time. Since I have not fully fleshed out my belief system perfectly, I don't feel that I need to completely stop attending church. I told my parents that I'm "shopping around," and I may do just that; hopefully I'll find some more liberal places around town.

I think it will take some time for me to fully disclose all I believe to my parents. And I think that's OK, mainly because what young people believe changes relatively frequently. I'll probably continue talking with them about religion for a while and make sure I mention some more liberal ideas I've been throwing around lately. I may even consider talking to some close Christian friends about things before I talk with my parents.

Again, thanks a lot for your support! I'm glad that your conversion stories aren't particularly bad ones.

abaya

This statement resounded for me. I was a fervent evangelical for all of my teen and college years, and right around your age (20?) I was reading too much for my own good (or, lots for my own good, but not good for my faith). I read a lot of both Christian and secular scholarship on the topic of Christianity, and in accord with my own exposure to other cultures and the world at large, it just wouldn't hold water anymore. Believe me, I TRIED to let it hold water... I kept going to church, kept reading/analyzing the Bible and scholarly literature, etc. I prayed and kept a relationship with God for many years after that, though my philosophy of prayer was being transformed along with my faith.

But at some point, I had to stop trying to plug all the holes because there were just too many. I should say, the last literature I got into was Thomas Merton... he both helped me stay in the fold, and to leave it. David James Duncan, too... pick up his books for some good thinkin' material. The Brothers K is phenomenal for an examination of American Christianity, all in a novel about baseball.

So, once I started to drift (e.g. God wasn't in every other sentence I used), I knew my friends would be praying for me. I didn't care if they did or didn't... I knew what they were thinking, because that's how I was trained to think about those who "left the fold," too. The devil was leading them astray... they had allowed sin and worldly temptations to cloud their vision, etc. And then there I was, sinner and all... and it started coming out, years later. Funny how it is, a *bit*, like being gay. Most of my friends took a few steps back from me, which hurt... but what was I going to do? Did they really love me, or did they love the fact that I was an evangelical Christian, too?

The shit really started hitting the fan when I began my relationship with ktspktsp, an atheist Arab. You can JUST imagine how people reacted (or hid their reactions) then. You really start to see who yours friends are, then. I can tell you right now that any of my friends who have not fully embraced ktspktsp, I have pretty much kicked out of my life. If they can't accept the person I'm dating for who he is, and trust me to make my own decisions, then I have no interest in remaining friends with them. And I mean, some of these people were very, very close friends.

My parents, well... they actually converted because of me, believe it or not. They were good heathens before that. So as I have walked away from the faith, they have really been shocked that I would do that... I mean, I was hard core evangie, and no one thought I would walk away (esp. after going to an evangie university). But I did. My mom asked a lot of questions, and I answered them as truthfully as I could. My dad accepted me, though I think he still assumes I'll go back to the church when I'm older. In the end, they loved me anyway. I credit that to their being human first, Christians second. Unless your parents are total asshats, there's not a whole lot you can do to make them stop loving you, once they get used to the change.

Anyway, that's my rambling story. Feel free to PM me if you want. Oh, and about talking with your Christian friends before your parents... fine and all, but beware that they are going to have their biases, too. They probably want to pray with you and such and such, to bring you back to their "side." They're well-meaning, but listen to your own heart.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

loganmule

Sounds like you've already lost your religion and found another world view that's closer to home for you. That may or may not change in the future, as you grow older. I went through a similar transition in college, and have come full circle more than once in the thirty odd years since...having children, growing older, and burying people you love, among other things, tends to drive changes in one's core beliefs.

Will and others have given good advice...know and be at peace with yourself, and others who respect you for that will stand by you (certainly parents, as I define and strive to live out the definition of it, never would reject you for heartfelt personal beliefs). Those who reject you simply reveal that it was only their evangelical Christian beliefs which connected them to you, and shared core beliefs, while arguably essential in certain instances (eg, marriage), isn't enough to serve as the basis for a deep friendship. In fact, respect for differences of opinion works better than shared faith, in my experience. Anyhow, like separating wheat from chaff, you'll know who your real friends are, and can let the others go, relegating them to the category of drinking buddies, where shared religious belief is the booze.

water_bug

You know, I lost my faith too. I gave up on Christianity. The process took years because, like you I was raised in the church. I was afraid of being a heathen or some such. It wasn't until this past January when I fianlly said, "Enough! I am not following this any more!" Since then I have been happier, more at peace, and a better person overall. And I think God, your family, and whoever would deem that more imporant than what religion you chose to follow. It is a hard choice (Like Jerry Seinfeld says, "It's not like changing brands of toothpaste.") but it is rewarding, or at least it has been for me. I am sure it will be for you too.