Gender roles and common language

[BigBen]

The term "Pussyfication" has been used on a different thread here on the TFP.

The term was used in the context of something being weak, spineless, and derogatory.

I have also heard the phrase "Don't be such a dick" referring to someone acting in their own self interests, or in a derogatory way.

I guess maybe it is my political correctness that has been beaten into me that is finally paying off, but what do other TFP'ers think of gender linked language and its negative effect on that gender?

That is soooo gay
Don't be a faggot
You throw like a girl


Am I being over-sensitive?

[la petite moi]

Frankly, it's all semantics. If I said: "That's retarded," most people would think nothing of it. However, some would be offended because I am linking something stupid with the mentally challenged. Also, what about the word "dumb"? Yes, there are some words that just shouldn't be used (faggot, gay, etc.), but mostly that's because they are hot topics right now.

[onodrim]

I really don't like it at all and I think it does have negative effects. It serves to enhance negative and often incorrect sterotypes and I think it's important to make an effort to avoid using language like that.

[ngdawg]

I've seen some cover themselves by spelling it 'ghey'...
I don't allow my kids to use 'retarded' and they watch themselves with 'stupid', objects, ok-people, no.
I joke around with terms like 'girly-man' but as a rule, if I want to insult, I can do so pretty well without derogatory names.

[VitaminH]

I think a lot of what people will and won't use has to do with their life experiences. Someone with gay or bi friends is going to be a lot less likely to throw out the phrase "that is so gay" or the like. The same goes for use of the word "retarded". I have twin cousins with Downs syndrome, and I choose not to throw that around myself, and it does admittidly grate my nerves a bit when I hear people throw it around to casually. Usually the occasional use by someone I'll dismiss and not get bothered, considering they don't likely have the same experiences in life I do.

I try to avoid things like "gay" "fag" and the like. The gender slang I've not given as much thought too. I guess I don't really use "pussy"...well ever, but I haver been known to throw around "dick" so I guess in no way can I get all high and mighty on those who use other terms.

[xepherys]

I know a lot of gay people that say "that's so gay" and mean it mostly the same way anyone else would. If something is "gay" it's usually to say that it's the opposite of macho. Is it deragatory? Sometimes, but not always. I think there is a certain level of respect one should have for others, but yes, I do think that's it's a bit over sensitive, BigBen. I am 100% against political correctness. If I could be, I'd be more than 100% against it.

[flat5]

context. how you say it. and what you say. makes a difference.

I once used the word "abused" in this forum.

Had nothing to do with sexual abuse but it offended someone who only knew the word in that context.

[Mantus]

Originally Posted by BigBen

Am I being over-sensitive?

You are being girly.

[crow_daw]

I have a gay uncle whom I'm very close to and I'm not sensitive to the use of "gay" or "fag" or what have you.

I too am against being politically correct. In every way. I think people in general have grown far too sensitive. They're just words. I mean, you may disagree, but there is most definitely a difference in calling someone/thing "gay" in a lighthearted manner and hatefully referring to an effeminate as a "faggot". Now that I take offense to.

And that's pretty much my stance on all of the above listed words. It is most definitely all about context, IMHO.

[Tachion]

These all come down to what is called 'Labelling'.

Basically its giving a name which has all sorts of meaning, only some of which, at best, are accurate and even then for only a moment in time.

Because I answer a question wrong doesn't mean I'm stupid in general. It means I didn't know the answer to that question.

What disturbs me most is when it is used against children.
You are lazy. You are a slow poke etc. You are spoiled.

These general tags are not accurate and should not be used. as they can really hurt an individual or make a perosn feel that is what they are in general.

Its a hard habit to break, and I am still working on it, but my wife showed me that this was a pervasive problem in our society and I have to agree.

It is possible to not use labelling.

[Toaster126]

I don't use the words gay and retarded as pejoratives to describe anything that isn't cool or nice or good. I use the word gay to describe homosexuality. I don't think I even use the word retarded.

Gender words, however, I have no problem with. While I don't use the word pussy to classify behavior, I will happily use the word pussyfication to describe something. And I've proved it today in forum. It's all context and the meaning behind these words.

I also use the word cunt occasionally in a non-gender related way, much like the English seem to do. That doesn't go over well a lot of times. I'm not going to stop though.

As far as labeling goes, human brains are pretty much wired to assign labels. We build our perceptions of future behavior from experiences in our past.

[cellophanedeity]

When words that are like this (pussy, dick, gay, etc.) are used as derogitory comments, the implication is that whatever you are calling is bad.

"You're so gay" used in an insulting tone suggests that "gay" is bad. It's no worse than "You're so black" or "You're so Jewish" used negatively. To say that one fits into a group of people because of negative actions or emotions suggests that that group of people are to be linked with negative actions and emotions.

I don't call people pussies or cunts or dicks. I happen to be a great fan of pussies and dicks, and I don't care to associate negative things with them. Poor assholes though... I tend to use that one negatively. Maybe I should stop?

To LPM: I think there's a huge difference between "dumb" and "retarded."
(retarded isn't a PC term to use in the first place, but that's a different issue all together.) The difference is that dumbness is caused by actions, so called "retardation" is caused physically.

You're right though, words are restricted because of social politics. I think they have to be in order for people to get along. Yes, people are often overly sensitive, but I see little problem with mildly altering our language to help keep the peace. I don't really see many people complaining about limiting the use of nigger or wap or jap or any of the other words that people call eachother racially. (I don't think I know any more than those ones)

[la petite moi]

Cello, to be "dumb" means to be unable to speak or mute, just as "retarded" means lacking in mental capability. They are both not PC.

On the topic again, I just remembered what I used to say to folks I heard saying something was "gay." I would respond: "I didn't know an inanimate object has a sexual preference!"

[leftyderek]

I don't really mind if people say something like 'it's so gay', 'you're such a pussy' etc. but just that although I am not gay, I don't really think it's anything bad so I never really use it this way, and I just happen to think cats and vaginas aren't bad things either... so there you go.

:-\

But no, I don't really like people using it but I am fine with it. Like, I won't freak out or something but I wouldn't use it myself, not in such a context at least.

[Gilda]

Originally Posted by xepherys

I know a lot of gay people that say "that's so gay" and mean it mostly the same way anyone else would. If something is "gay" it's usually to say that it's the opposite of macho.

Sure, in that context, it's being used in the common sense of the word, which is roughly overtly feminine behaviors engaged in by males, or to describe sterotypically homosexual behaviors. In such a context, it's merely descriptive and serves a useful function.

However, for some, perhaps many in our society, such behavior is seen as wrong, as a man somehow lowering himself by acting like a woman, an attitude that by itself is sexist and demaning.

Is it deragatory? Sometimes, but not always.

When used in the manner above, of course not.

However, the manner in which I hear it being used is to mean, "Something that I dislike for any reason," or "stupid and of little value," in other words, it's become the slang word for "bullshit," shorthand for describing something of which the speaker disapproves.

When used in this manner, yes, it's offensive, as it's playing off of an assumed negative connection with qualities associated with gays--cellophanedeity said it very well earlier.

Example: In class yesterday morning, as I was going over class policies with one of my classes, one of the students, taking exception with my policies, described them as "gay". Now, I doubt he knows that I'm homosexual, and even if he does, I very much doubt that he meant my class policies were typical of those used by homosexual professors without passing judgement on them. No, he meant, as does the vast majority of adolescents when using the term in a slang manner, that he thought they were stupid, which is to say, he disliked them.

I don't ever think I've heard the phrase, "this is so gay" outside of my immediate family, anyway, used to describe something in a neutral way.

I think there is a certain level of respect one should have for others, but yes, I do think that's it's a bit over sensitive, BigBen. I am 100% against political correctness. If I could be, I'd be more than 100% against it.

What do you mean by "political correctness" here?

I don't think being cognizant of potential offense to others and trying to be polite in how you speak when you're around others as being "political correctness"; I think of it as good manners.

I'd add to the above phrases, "Be a man," often used to encourage boys participating in sports or who are showing fear, used to mean roughly, "Don't be a sissy," or "Don't be a wimp", implying that courage or perseverance are male qualities.

Offensive, maybe a tiny bit, but nonetheless gender stereotyping, which can have a profound cumulative effect over time on attitudes.

Gilda

[Martian]

Language is a reflection of education. Those who use words like retarded or gay in a derogatory sense do so because they have no recourse; they lack the command of the english language to find a suitable alternative.

That being said, I tend to alter my vocabulary to reflect my environment. If I'm around warehouse workers or construction workers where such language is common, I will call someone a pussy or a cunt. In more educated groupings, that language isn't used. As a rule, if someone calls an individual a pussy, he isn't meaning to imply that he has one or is a girl, just that he lacks typically masculine traits such as strength and courage. The word has evolved beyond it's original meaning; words are wont to do that.

[SecretMethod70]

Go Gilda

Use of these phrases reinforces negative gender stereotypes in many instances and I don't really see any instances in which they should be accepted. I won't bother to say any more because others have said it far better before me. (See: onodrim, cellophanedeity, and gilda)

[martinguerre]

Language is a reflection of education. Those who use words like retarded or gay in a derogatory sense do so because they have no recourse; they lack the command of the english language to find a suitable alternative.

i'm not sure i'd deterministically state that a lack of education means that one cannot use healthy langauge around gender...but overall, i'm in agreement there.

when i know someone has a choice about such language, i think my reaction to the use of that word in particular lies somewhere between disgust and contempt...its not so much that i'm offended, as much as i lose any and all respect i may have had for a person.

[Eweser]

I agree with a lot already said here. I do think it depends on how a person was raised, the environment a person is in, limit of vocabulary, etc. Some words I find that I don't like to hear, even if they don't upset me, never bother other people. I do get offended if the comment is made to truly hurt someone or put someone down. If it's made as a general whine or in jest, I usually just laugh and go on.

Personally, I try not to use words when I'm not sure how they'll be taken. I have learned it's easier to not say these things than try to gain back respect after it's lost.

[BigBen]

Originally Posted by VitaminH

I think a lot of what people will and won't use has to do with their life experiences. Someone with gay or bi friends is going to be a lot less likely to throw out the phrase "that is so gay" or the like. The same goes for use of the word "retarded"....

I think that is an excellent way to put it. To think that my homosexual friends could be hurt when I use the english language loosely, well. I just would not want to hurt one of my friends, or an acquaintance, or a potential friend.

Originally Posted by xepherys

...I think there is a certain level of respect one should have for others, but yes, I do think that's it's a bit over sensitive, BigBen. I am 100% against political correctness. If I could be, I'd be more than 100% against it.

Hmmmmm. I need to explore this more; I enjoy letting the rules go every once in a while and getting rude and crude (and semi-nude). I am finding an inherent contradiction in the two sentences abover, Xeph. One needs to show respect for others, yet you are 100% against political correctness.

Not to put words in your mouth, but are you rejecting the rule that says "Be sensitive to others feelings and station in society" or are you looking at it like: "Attention: Here is a list of people you need to give special treatment to:"

Because I am an equal footing kind of guy, but I am also in favour of political correctness. Not 100% of the time, mind you.

[stevie667]

Originally Posted by Martian

Language is a reflection of education. Those who use words like retarded or gay in a derogatory sense do so because they have no recourse; they lack the command of the english language to find a suitable alternative.

I would like to differ, i use those words all the time, and i've pretty much finished a book on language usage. Granted, i use them because they're easier, but it doesn't mean i can't return to a more coalesced version of english vocabulary so as to imply illicit meanings from ones language usage. Or something

It's all slang at the end of the day.

[Mantus]

This phenomenon takes two. Stereotypes have to be believed. I've known many gay guys in my life. If someone calls me a fag, it won't even phase me. However I'll call someone queer when I know it will hit a nerve.

The way I see it, the onus is on the one being insulted to be educated and informed. I can't babysit the world. I can't change people's minds. By calling someone a "pussy" or a "fag" all I am doing it soliciting to ideas that are already in their heads.

When it comes to respect. I respect everyone. I don't throw around insults very often. I may take jabs at people but it's all in good fun and they know it. The key is intent. One can insult another without using a single derogatory term. So if I tease someone with the word "fag" and they take it personally, that's their issue not mine.

So if we are both aware of the stereotype then it's a harmless joke. It only becomes dangerous when one party believes the stereotype.

With kids it's differnt. They don't have a fully developed view of the world. If an addult uses the world "girly" in refference to weakness they just might get the idea that girls are weak. So yes, we should watch out tounge around kids but the bubble we put them in will burst sooner or later. Thus it's imperative to educate them because knowledge gives them immunity. This is where PC people make the mistake, they fail to see the difference between prevention and solution.

This is my personal view of things. There are people out there who believe stereotypes and use them with the intent to insult. Censoring myself won't change their minds.

[Gilda]

I must disagree. If someone calls me, as happened not too long ago, a "bull dyke cunt", I would be offended by that, even though I know for a fact that that description is not accurate.

Words have power. That's why we're here discussing things. That's why Shakespeare is considered so much more important a writer than any of dozens of contemporary writers. I think it's a bit short sighted to use language that on it's face is intended to be insulting and then try to shift blame to the offended party for being offended by said usage.

Gilda

[Marvelous Marv]

Yesterday, the guy I golf with every week left a putt way short. I called him a "fucking pussy." Sometimes, I call him a "labia majora."

I guess I'd be okay with saying, "You fucking pussy--not that there's anything wrong with that."

[Swirl]

I'm not really offended by words such as 'gay', 'pussy' & 'dick' or by any words, really. I'm not sensitive to any words in general, I used to be, but I just stopped giving a shit.

[Toaster126]

Originally Posted by Gilda

Words have power. That's why we're here discussing things. That's why Shakespeare is considered so much more important a writer than any of dozens of contemporary writers. I think it's a bit short sighted to use language that on it's face is intended to be insulting and then try to shift blame to the offended party for being offended by said usage.

Gilda

I disagree. Words have power only if you let them. There doesn't need to be any "blame" when someone is insulted or offended.

[rat]

Originally Posted by Martian

Language is a reflection of education. Those who use words like retarded or gay in a derogatory sense do so because they have no recourse; they lack the command of the english language to find a suitable alternative.

It's nice to see someone so self-righteous as to blame ignorance for the use of common colloquialisms or widely-used connotations of words in the "mainstream" usage of the American English language.

Language, while requiring education, is by no means wielded only in a simple, singular fashion by anyone. In fact, you'll find the greater the language skills of an individual, the more likely they are to pick up and subsequently use both the syntax, the idioms, the slang terms, and the pronunciation of other groups as they spend time around them.

As a Caucasian American who learned Spanish from both 6 years of intermediary education, four semesters of university Spanish, and roughly 4 years of working in and around many Hispanic citizens in the Southern United States, I could pass for a native in a conversation from any one of several Latin regions. Or I could walk into a pub in Chicago, pass for a Polack Yankee like most of my mothers family, grammatically and idiom perfect. Or I could go to downtown Houston, the city of both my birth and residence, and fit right in. I can adjust accent and verbiage to simulate any of the four distinct regions of Texas, and converse with Brits rather smoothly, without much in the way of clarification from either end to get through a conversation, though the few Scots I've come across have some interesting methods of telling a story and are quite colorful.

As you point out, the language one uses--while it may depend on the degree of education--is far more a function of environment and acceptable realms of words used. There are words I use in my father's household I don't in my mother's and vice versa. And you can be damned sure my language slips quite a bit more when I'm out at the bar than it does when I'm around my grandmother. As someone that's a pretty staunch intellectual, the ability to "dumb down" my speech and put those around me at ease remains one of my greatest skills, as it allows me to camouflage the greatest of my assets--my mind.

[Toaster126]

Originally Posted by rat

Language, while requiring education, is by no means wielded only in a simple, singular fashion by anyone. In fact, you'll find the greater the language skills of an individual, the more likely they are to pick up and subsequently use both the syntax, the idioms, the slang terms, and the pronunciation of other groups as they spend time around them.

I forgot to touch on this. Intelligence\education has a correlational relationship with language - not a causal one. I'm not sure how clear that statement is, so I'll restate it. Intelligence and education may cause you to speak in a classy or politically correct manner, but one can certainly speak in a "dirtier" manner and be intelligent and\or educated. Assuming certain things about someone based on their linguistic stylings seems pretty judgemental and un-PC.