The War on Christmas - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Bill O'Rights · 12-13-2005, 06:43 AM

Quote:

THE WASHINGTON POST

WASHINGTON - What's missing from the White House Christmas card? Christmas.This month, as in every December since he took office, President Bush sent out cards with a generic end-of-the-year message, wishing 1.4 million of his close friends and supporters a happy "holiday season."

Many people are thrilled to get a White House Christmas card, no matter what the greeting inside. But some conservative Christians are reacting as if Bush had stuck coal in their stockings.

Religious conservatives are miffed because they have been pressuring stores to advertise Christmas sales rather than "holiday specials" and urging schools to let students out for Christmas vacation rather than for "winter break." They celebrated when House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., insisted that the sparkling spectacle on the Capitol lawn should be called the Capitol Christmas tree, not a holiday spruce.

Then along comes a generic season's greeting from the White House, paid for by the Republican National Committee. The cover art is also secular, if not humanist: It shows the presidential pets - two dogs and a cat - frolicking on a snowy White House lawn.

"This clearly demonstrates that the Bush administration has suffered a loss of will and that they have capitulated to the worst elements in our culture," said William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights.

Bush "claims to be a born-again, evangelical Christian. But he sure doesn't act like one," said Joseph Farah, editor of the conservative Web site WorldNetDaily.com. "I threw out my White House card as soon as I got it."

Susan Whitson, Laura Bush's press secretary, defended the first family. "Certainly President and Mrs. Bush, because of their faith, celebrate Christmas," she said. "Their cards in recent years have included best wishes for a holiday season, rather than Christmas wishes, because they are sent to people of all faiths."

That is the same rationale offered by major retailers for generic holiday catalogs, and it is accepted by groups such as the National Council of Churches.

"I think it's more important to put Christ back into our war planning than into our Christmas cards," said the council's general secretary, the Rev. Bob Edgar, a former Democratic congressman.

But the White House's explanation does not satisfy groups that believe there is, in the words of the Heritage Foundation, a "war on Christmas" involving an "ever-stronger push toward a neutered holiday season so that non-Christians won't be even the slightest bit offended."

One of the generals on the pro-Christmas side is Tim Wildmon, president of the American Family Association in Tupelo, Miss.

"Sometimes it's hard to tell whether this is sinister - it's the purging of Christ from Christmas - or whether it's just political correctness run amok," he said. "I think in the case of the White House, it's just political correctness."

Wildmon does not give retailers the same benefit of the doubt. This year he has called for a consumer boycott of Target stores because the chain issued a holiday advertising circular that did not mention Christmas. Last year he aimed a similar boycott at Macy's Inc., which averted a repeat this December by proclaiming "Merry Christmas" in its advertising and in-store displays.

"It bothers me that the White House card leaves off any reference to Jesus, while we've got Ramadan celebrations in the White House," Wildmon said. "What's going on there?"

At the Catholic League, Donohue had just announced a boycott of the Lands' End catalog when he received his White House holiday card. True, he said, the Bushes included a verse from Psalm 28, but Psalms are in the Old Testament and do not mention Jesus' birth.

"They'd better address this, because they're no better than the retailers who have lost the will to say 'Merry Christmas,'" he said.

Donohue said that Wal-Mart, facing a threatened boycott, added a Christmas page to its Web site and fired a customer relations employee who wrote a letter linking Christmas to "Siberian shamanism." He was not mollified by a letter from Lands' End saying it "adopted the 'holiday' terminology as a way to comply with one of the basic freedoms granted to all Americans: freedom of religion."

What is so bad about saying "Happy Holidays"? I've used that phrase for years, and I'm certainly no soldier in the "War on Christmas". Let's face it, not everyone is Christian. And there are numerous holidays, celebrated by other religions, that coincide with this time of the year. Is it that big of a deal? I, for one, don't think so. But, I tend to not make such a big thing out of situations such as a simple "Happy Holidays". Are people really getting that thin skinned? Do some honestly feel that threatened by it, or are they just out for attention?

Charlatan · 12-13-2005, 06:53 AM

This is such a non-issue. What is it? Does Bill O'Reilly have nothing better to rail against this week?

Seriously. We in North America live in multicultural societies. At one point we were nations made up of predominantly one religion, Christianity (and it's various branches). This is no longer the case. Many other cultures and religions are part of the make up of our nations. Why wouldn't we make the effort to be more inclusive rather than the opposite?

Happy Holidays is an inclusive statement. It doesn't exclude Christmas or any other celebration. It embraces all at the expense of none.

Get over it already and pass the fricken egg nog.

Cynthetiq · 12-13-2005, 07:14 AM

Everyone that I've encountered in the whole world knows that Dec is Christmas, some know that Hannakuh comes too, from Singapore to Iceland.

In other countries that have dominating religions, everyone SHARES in the days and greets each other accordingly. No erasing the word to make someone else feel better since it's not that big of a deal anyways to most.

Depalvi in India is celebrated in Singapore but the Buddhists don't celebrate it, but the at least acknowledge their fellow countrymen celebrate it.

albania · 12-13-2005, 07:15 AM

Who cares anyway, Christmas is a made up holiday, it was originally a roman one to celebrate their god, the tree wasn't added until much later by Germans. And it actually being the birth of Jesus is highly speculative. Although i suppose it's better then just picking a day at random, but what I’m saying is if you're that into Christmas, you might want to look into its original meaning, less to do with Jesus more to do with pagans. So why care so much about a made up holiday, does it truly symbolize what people say it does, i don't think so. Almost everyone i know sees Christmas as the time of year you wait in line and receive/give craptacular gifts. So saying happy holidays not necessary from a secular standpoint if you can afford it why not say merry Christmas and a happy new year, too many words for some. Personally i couldn't care less. So I don’t think it’s a war on Christmas, it’s just a preference.

Ustwo · 12-13-2005, 07:26 AM

I think its gotten silly with the happy holidays. A better question is, is it offensive to wish someone a merry Chirstmas?

My wife does the Christmas card thing, and she got a box of 'happy holiday' cards for the non-Christian types, mostly Jewish. I told her to get some hanukkah cards instead.

So while I don't see saying happy holidays as a war on Christmas, I do see it as a cop out to the fear of being non-PC.

kutulu · 12-13-2005, 07:32 AM

The "War on Christmas" is funny for about a few days each year. It's just a bunch of egotistical christians that want everyone to conform to their will.

ratbastid · 12-13-2005, 07:43 AM

Both sides of this argument are patently ridiculous. This is a total non-issue. I can only speculate at the motives of the people who are making such a fuss about it.

I have many friends who are observant jews. To a one, when wished a merry Christmas, will smile and say, "Thanks!". Or maybe, "I don't celebrate Christmas, but thanks! Merry Christmas to you!" Guess what? Non-christians actually don't get offended when you make assumptions about their faith. They're used to it. Most of my jewish friends LOVE Christmas, and are happy to be taking part in our celebration of it. One of them was really excited to be able to come decorate our tree with us yesterday.

On the other hand, what the hell does it hurt to have a little sensitivity? It's NICE to be respectful of other people and their faith. Christmas is all ABOUT being nice to people (cf. Eben. Scrooge, et al). Being wished "Happy Holidays" doesn't detract from my Christmas observance in the slightest. Are Christians really so offended to be reminded that there are non-Christians in the world at this, their most holy shopping season?

What's REALLY an attack against Christmas is those damn card-carying atheists who are celebrating an evil sham of American Right-Wing Norman Rockwell Christmas. Look! ratbastid doesn't even believe in Christ! And he's got a Christmas tree up! And LOOK!! Stockings! Hung by the chimney with care! HEATHEN! BUUUURRRN!!!!

Charlatan · 12-13-2005, 07:45 AM

Quote:

What's REALLY an attack against Christmas is those damn card-carying atheists who are celebrating an evil sham of American Right-Wing Norman Rockwell Christmas. Look! ratbastid doesn't even believe in Christ! And he's got a Christmas tree up! And LOOK!! Stockings! Hung by the chimney with care! HEATHEN! BUUUURRRN!!!!

Guilty as charged...

maleficent · 12-13-2005, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Christmas is all ABOUT being nice to people

since when -- christmas is all about gimme gimme gimme gimme.. and being as rude as possible to people when out on the streets and in the malls...

bah humbug i say...

Cynthetiq · 12-13-2005, 07:53 AM

Quote:

O, HOLY FRIGHT
By MARLENE NAANES and ANDY GELLER

EXCLUSIVE
LINK
Ho, ho . . . no!!!!!

Slay bells are ringing outside a $3 million brownstone on East 18th Street in Manhattan, where, rather than yourtypical jolly St. Nick, a skinny, bloody-bearded Santa holds a knife in his left hand and the severed head of a doll - blood gushing from its eye sockets - in the other.

This 'tis-the-season-to be-creepy display - which has drawn no small amount of community ire - can be found in thefront yard of Joel Krupnik, 58, and his wife, Mildred Castellanos, 43, who said they are protesting the commercialization of the Yule season.

In another touch of Christmas jeer, the Santa dummy is standing behind a tree whose bare branches are adorned with beheaded Barbie dolls.

"Christmas has religious origins. It's in the Bible. Santa is not in the Bible. He's not a religious symbol. Santa Claus has become a piece of Americana," Krupnik explained yesterday.

Krupnik, who dabbles in real estate, said if anyone was offended, they could simply cross the street. Some children have done just that.

Other people have called the cops - only to be told there was nothing they could do. And one woman chased Castellanos down the block, screaming epithets at her.

Outside the home - also decorated with gargoyles, lizards and dragons - there were many who accused the couple of dreaming of a fright Christmas.

"This is like a nightmare before Christmas. These people are possessed," fumed Laure Levinson, 50. "I thought it was very gory and bloody. Christmas is not supposed to be gory," said Jimmy Crevier, 9, who was passing by."It's bad," agreed Sean Conlon, 5. "Santa's face and hair are red - Santa shouldn't look like that."

His brother, Ryan, 9, chimed in, "Santa makes toys and he lives in the North Pole. He doesn't have a haunted house like that."

"It's weird," said Javin Bose, 7, who lives next door.

The Krupniks, who have three children and have owned their home for 16 years, are nonpracticing Jews who don't celebrate any holidays, but like putting up decorations for them.

"We definitely have holiday spirit," insisted daughter Darla, 16.

The couple introduced their kids to horror films at an early age - and Darla and her brothers, Ariel, 18, and Charleston, 20, love them.

In fact, Darla came up with the idea for the bloody Santa - basing it on the movie, "Silent Night, Deadly Night," inwhich a teenager goes on a murderous rampage dressed as Santa.

The beheaded dolls came from Castellanos, who has a collection.

at least it's a creative stand....

Charlatan · 12-13-2005, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

since when -- christmas is all about gimme gimme gimme gimme.. and being as rude as possible to people when out on the streets and in the malls...

bah humbug i say...

That's not what it's about... that's what it has BECOME.

There is a difference.

Siege · 12-13-2005, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Christmas is all ABOUT being nice to people

In theory anyway

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

christmas is all about gimme gimme gimme gimme.. and being as rude as possible to people when out on the streets and in the malls...

sounds about right

jwoody · 12-13-2005, 07:58 AM

I call it Xmas... or Crimbo.

If I was to wish a Buddhist a 'Merry Crimbo', then I'm just telling him that:

I had a productive summer, I've survived the worst of the winter and to celebrate I'm going to eat and drink heavily for several consecutive days and I wish for that person to have the means and the time to do the same.

How could anyone possibly be offended by that?

#edit#

P.S. Saying 'Happy Holidays' most definitely constitutes a war on Christmas.

Charlatan · 12-13-2005, 08:01 AM

The folks at Landover Baptist Church appear to agree with Krupnik and Castellanos. They believe Santa is Satan. Get behind me Santa!

LINK

Quote:

The Devil Is In Your Chimney!
Is Santa Claus, Satan? (A Special Report Concerning the Origin of Santa Claus)

Freehold, Iowa - Satan's evil plan has created jobs for hundreds of thousands of old lecherous pedophiles throughout this Godly country every December. These filthy homeless hobos just lay on their urine-stained cardboard beds 11 months out of the year, dreaming of Christmas when they can drunkenly traipse into the warmth of departments stores and have innocent little Christian children sit on their vermin-infested laps. Unwary parents happily snap pictures while Satan's obesely wheezing drunks ask their children whether they've been "bad" and whisper lewd suggestions in their angelic little ears with their filthy booze-breath and cigarette-discolored lips. How many unsuspecting tots have suffered a quick grope before Satan's little helper moves on to the next hopeful child in line?

People think that Halloween is the time of year that Satan dresses up, but this is just flat-out wrong. See? The Devil will always try to fool you! Halloween is when Satan delights in watching humans dress in ways that will ensure them entry into the Devil's realm. But it is Christmas time that the Devil saves for himself! It is then when he puts on his most devious costume! And it takes no Sherlock Holmes to see that the Devil's annual disguise is none other than Santa! He even wears his favorite color -- demon red. Even his last name, "Claus," is Olde English for "hoof-claws." Lucifer may be the wiliest of all the deceitful demons that ever drew breath of fire in Hell, but he was pretty sloppy when he decided to try to spoil our Savior's birthday with this disguise. His big devil ego got the better of him when he decided to name his Christmas Anti-Christ after himself. He just moved around the letters in the name, "Satan," into a sonogram and got "Santa." Well, this is to put Prince of Darkness on notice: We are on to you Satan! And we unmask you and heartily rebuke you! Get thee hence from our Christ's birthday party!

Satan once was God's favorite angel. But he tried a heavenly coup and God should have by all rights killed him right then and there. But God, being all that is good, gave him his very own place to rule and called it Hell. And even though God gave Satan free reign to tempt as many people as he wanted (even Christ Himself!) and lots of fabulous stuff to tempt them with (like eternal youth and Lincoln Continentals), Satan was still not satisfied. It made him jealous that Americans have made Christmas the most important retail event of the year, far overshadowing Satan's own holiday, Halloween. So Satan has tried to undermine Christmas by making Santa even more popular than Jesus!

You don't think so? Even the law of the land forbids a baby Jesus in the town square, but who is there instead? You guessed it! Santa! Every time a so-called Christian child asks Santa for something, he is praying to Satan. With each request fulfilled, parents are unwittingly making a pact with the Devil. They may as well be writing in blood, "Satan please distract our children from Jesus with all these shiny toys!" But you know what? When your little boys and girls have grown up and no longer believe that Santa is real, they will find out just how real Satan is when he comes to collect their souls in exchange for all those presents! And God will turn a deaf ear to their pathetic wails of desperation. God will say, "You were more interested in that fat demon who was giving you presents than my Son who was giving you salvation, so you can all rot in Hell for all I care."

So talk to your children before it is too late! Tell them that Santa is no kindly old man; he is an evil demon. And next time your family sees some propped up gin-soaked vagrant in a Mall wearing a red suit with white furry cuffs, set a good example and witness for the other deluded people waiting in line. Loudly, rebuke him! Announce to all the children in the store "Not only is Santa a lie, he will ravage you sexually, drink your blood and drag your palpating carcasses down to Hell with him!" It is only through setting a good example that we can put the Christ back in Christmas.

maleficent · 12-13-2005, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwoody

How could anyone possibly be offended by that?

you'd be amazed at what people CHOOSE to be offended by...

I'm still bah humbugging ...

kutulu · 12-13-2005, 08:01 AM

Shit like this is what happens when parties let their fringe groups flap their lips too much. I'm so sick of extremists on both sides dominating debate. I'm just as sick of liberals who get their panties in a bunch over hearing the word Christmas as I am of conservatives that get all offended by the word Holidays.

Why can't we just round up those people on both sides, drop them off on a remote island with a shitload of weapons and let them fight it out? Once the victors in 'War on Christmas' have been decided we can nuke the island and forget about them once and for all. Yeah, you won but you're still dead!!!

Ustwo · 12-13-2005, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

What's REALLY an attack against Christmas is those damn card-carying atheists who are celebrating an evil sham of American Right-Wing Norman Rockwell Christmas. Look! ratbastid doesn't even believe in Christ! And he's got a Christmas tree up! And LOOK!! Stockings! Hung by the chimney with care! HEATHEN! BUUUURRRN!!!!

At least you are consistant ratbastid

Being an atheist I have a tree up but only to celebrate my pagan heritage.

All hail Dagda!

kutulu · 12-13-2005, 08:03 AM

you do know that Landover Baptist Church is a parody, right?

Charlatan · 12-13-2005, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

Why can't we just round up those people on both sides, drop them off on a remote island with a shitload of weapons and let them fight it out? Once the victors in 'War on Christmas' have been decided we can nuke the island and forget about them once and for all. Yeah, you won but you're still dead!!!

Battle Royale... the Christmas sequel!

The reason why this will never happen is that it is these fringe elements that fill the ballot boxes.

kutulu · 12-13-2005, 08:07 AM

Well the Republicans are about to learn that you can't pander to extremists during the election year and then forget about them for the rest of the term. Democrats need to take note on this too.

Ustwo · 12-13-2005, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

The folks at Landover Baptist Church appear to agree with Krupnik and Castellanos. They believe Santa is Satan. Get behind me Santa!

The Landover Baptist Church is the only clear thinking religious organization in America.

Charlatan · 12-13-2005, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

you do know that Landover Baptist Church is a parody, right?

Really? You're kidding!

/end sarcasm.

raeanna74 · 12-13-2005, 08:37 AM

I was raised conservative, protestant, Christian. There were times that we had no tree, exchanged no gifts, and we NEVER pretended, or acknowledged Satan, I mean Santa, except with distain. We infact did not even wrap gifts with paper that had images of Santa on them.

As an adult, and parent, I took my daughter to see Santa. I will take my daughter to the Christmas program at church. There are many different religions and cultures who celebrate this time of year for many good reasons and I see no reason to throw out the whole celebration of a certain culture or religion simply because I don't agree with all of it.

I normally say Merry Christmas because that is what I grew up with and am most comfortable with. Even though Christ-Mass was considered a 'pagan' celebration by my religious peers. Protestants do not hold mass of any sort. But I celebrated it as a Christ centered holiday so called it by the most common name. I am not offended by someone saying Happy Holidays because it does acknowledge other celebrations as well and I am not going to take someone else's celebration from them simply because I don't PERSONALLY celebrate it.

The debate about having a Christmas tree here, I found interesting. A Christmas tree is not a purely 'Christian' image used in Christmas celebration. Christmas (as well as Halloween) has elements of many other religions. The Catholic church merged a few 'pagan' traditions into it's celebrations in hopes of making the pagans more comfortable with worshiping with the Catholic church.
Growing up my parents (in particular my mother) had a problem with putting up a tree of any kind and in the end allowed us to put one up so long as we did not put ANY gold or silver decorations on the tree. She based her belief on the reference in Jeremiah 10:2-5 where it refers to 'heathen' putting up a tree and worshiping it. "For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; theyfasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." So in some areas of the protestant faith, people believe that a Christmas tree is an idol and image that us pagans 'worship'. I ask you - how many of you have bowed down to your Christmas tree lately or prayed to it??

Happy Holidays? - go ahead and say it but don't you dare complain if I still say "Merry Christmas".

Carno · 12-13-2005, 08:40 AM

I really don't give a crap. When I see arguments like these it really just reminds me how stupid and petty people are.

WHY DOES ANYONE CARE?

Coppertop · 12-13-2005, 08:46 AM

No, and it's pretty fucking retarded to say so.

Happy Saturnalia.

roachboy · 12-13-2005, 08:46 AM

yet another faux news non issue.
unlike most other such, this one is funny...the premise is an imperial daydream of universal christianity.....wall to wall, all the same....it should not be---- no-one who is not xtian and who finds themselves nevertheless participant in an xtian annual cycle should have the audacity to write or exchange seasonal greetings....why this is obviously an affront to xtians everywhere--presenting them with the fact that not everyone is like them during the time of year when dreaming about an xtian world is most appealing.

this is an evident index of angst amongst the folk who run the right media apparatus--alienation of the far right xtian base---this sad, tedious meme would bypass all contact with reality (again) and provide the far right xtian base with a reason to feel solidarity with a wider political context during those brief moments of reflection that punctuate sustained retail experiences.
like when you are standing in a line at a cash register waiting to pay.
while you read the information on the box of a computer game the main objective of which is to kill as many arabs as possible, say.
channel that irritation into something useful.
in this way, you see fox news trying to help.
yay faux news.
yay bill o'reilly.

abaya · 12-13-2005, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

What's REALLY an attack against Christmas is those damn card-carying atheists who are celebrating an evil sham of American Right-Wing Norman Rockwell Christmas. Look! ratbastid doesn't even believe in Christ! And he's got a Christmas tree up! And LOOK!! Stockings! Hung by the chimney with care! HEATHEN! BUUUURRRN!!!!

I love it.

Carry on, heathen.

Eweser · 12-13-2005, 08:56 AM

It seems that people have started looking for anything to claim it offends them; "The War on Christmas" is just another one of these. I'm all for making sure that no one is offended, but it does seem to be getting ridiculous and petty.

Personally, I use "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Holidays". Sorry in advance if I do offend anyone. I really don't mean to.

ratbastid · 12-13-2005, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

At least you are consistant ratbastid

It is my hobgoblin.

Look, when O'Reilly is the main spewer of "war on christmas" rhetoric, you gotta admit there's a right-wing faction at work. It's a completely absurd thing, being used, I suspect, to opportunistically rile up the religious conservative base. The religious support of the conservative agenda has been slipping lately, and nothing works on that demographic quite like righteous indignation.

That's all I'm gonna say about that, because this thread is in General, not Politics.

Sultana · 12-13-2005, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

I was raised conservative, protestant, Christian. There were times that we had no tree, exchanged no gifts, and we NEVER pretended, or acknowledged Satan, I mean Santa, except with distain. We infact did not even wrap gifts with paper that had images of Santa on them.

...Happy Holidays? - go ahead and say it but don't you dare complain if I still say "Merry Christmas".

Huh. I was raised in a very similar environment (mostly Conservative Southern Baptist). In the same way I never knew from one year to the next how we were going to be allowed to do anything from trees to santa to whatever. OK, Santa was never any part of our holiday, but if Mom found Santa wrapping paper on sale, we'd use that (on the premise that it'd be ripped up and destroyed anyways...oye). Same with Easter.

I don't worry about that stuff anymore at all. And I'll say just about any crazy thing, including Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas--whatever happens to pop out of my irreverent, sacreligious mind at that moment.

By the way raeanna74, I'm always interested in your point of view, seeing how similar our upbringing seems to have been, and the things you do/way you live now.

raveneye · 12-13-2005, 09:43 AM

To any kid (from 1 to 92), the phrase "Merry Christmas" has a whiff of thrill and magic to it that no other phrase in the English language can equal.

"Happy Holidays" is a lukewarm glass of water; "Happy Hannukah" or Kwanzaa don't do much for me either.

But Bill O'Reilly's war on Christmas? It's so laughable that my first reaction was: this can't be real, this is some sort of a parody?

If the Onion were to try to think up a parody of Bill whose purpose was to point out how ludicrous, petty, and obsessed he is, it's really hard to think of a better one than this.

warrrreagl · 12-13-2005, 09:55 AM

In my hometown, the local university lit up their "Holiday Tree" this year just like they have done every year for the past several years (BIG ceremony with singing and speeches and hot chocolate, etc.). And they've always called it a "Holiday Tree." However, this year they suddenly made it onto the hit list of the Christmas Soldiers and boycotts were threatened, letters written, television reports filed, and donations pulled back. Next year, they'll have a Christmas Tree, even though nobody really cared (or even noticed) until this year that it was a "Holiday Tree."

Weird.

Now, on the flip side of that, I'm disappointed in businesses that are afraid of the word "Christmas" and they've trained and threatened all their employees to avoid the word at all costs.

It's the same mistake as above, just on a different side of the river.

If a Jewish person made a remark about lighting a menorah, would you jump up his ass and tell him it's a "Holiday Candlestick Holder?" Therefore, if the non-Christians would lighten up a little bit, then the Christian weirdos wouldn't have anything to protest and boycott (in theory). Let Christians have Christmas, let Jews have Hannukah, let Africans have Kwanzaa, and let Muslims have Eid El Fitr.

People always get into trouble when they start trying to ban things that belong to other folks. But then again, some people live for that shit.

trickyy · 12-13-2005, 10:06 AM

yes, this issue is so unimportant it's unbelievable. i like holidays (general term) but i don't do a lot of well-wishing tied to specific days. unless it's "happy birthday."

i know people very concerned with whether target employees say MC or HH
HH is somewhat of a product of the PC culture, but it is also a fast way to say happy thanksgiving, merry christmas, happy new year...

i was wondering if "holidays" could be watered down some more
holy should not be acceptible with everyone. is anyone leading a war on holidays? bring on wintervale. it's an idea for next year, maybe.

i'd say christmas is safe. then again, the ACLU could sue to have the day stripped of it's status as a national holiday. that would be a great PR move on their part. meanwhile, we are free to run around buying stuff while fighting over semantics in the trenches of walmart entrances everywhere.

uncle phil · 12-13-2005, 10:18 AM

merry christmas, everybody...and happy new year, too...

vermin · 12-13-2005, 10:20 AM

Quote:

from the landover baptist church thing:
"...their vermin-infested laps."

I plead the fifth.

You don't have to be a christian to have a happy Dec. 25th. "War" seems a little extreme.

Poppinjay · 12-13-2005, 10:31 AM

The war on Christmas is a manufactured controversy that gives pundit gasbags something to talk about.

It started in earnest when O'Reilly, a Fox talk show host had on a guest, John Gibson, who wrote the book, "The War On Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday Is Worse Than You Thought".

John Gibson is a Fox news host. Gee, isn't that a coincidence? So, TV and radio gasbags all o're the land are screaming about this topic. I helped produce a talk show on a day this was the topic. When a caller asked why we were talking about it, the host said, "uh, it's one of those things they say talk radio is talking about." Which pretty much puts it in a nutshell.

Have a happy nutsacking!-

maleficent · 12-13-2005, 10:33 AM

This seems to have been going on long before O'Reilly.. back when i was a wee one in my plaid skirt attending Most Blessed Sacrament.. the big push at Christmas came from the Knights of Columbus.. and that was the Keep Christ in Christmas campaign.. This was to counteract the people shortening Christmas to Xmas... or even happy holidays...

Poppinjay · 12-13-2005, 10:37 AM

I think that was really a whole other thing than this latest. People have been saying, "keep the Christ in Christmas" for decades. Some who are less than aware what the X in Xmas means (the Greek X, "chi" was a symbol for Christ) also railed against that for a while, but since then the symbol has become fairly common knowledge.

Charlatan · 12-13-2005, 10:38 AM

Yes, Mal is right, this has been a topic prior to O'Reilly. I can remember rumblings about it back when I was a kid; usually about the use of Xmas.

Mostly it was an effort to remember the Christ in Christmas which is always a good reminder.

The recent drivel from O'Reilly is just another example of him trying to create mountains out of molehills. If he can just stir up enough mud something will stick.

flstf · 12-13-2005, 11:41 AM

"Happy Holidays" (holy days) is being used instead of "Merry Christmas" in an effort to not offend anyone but we all know the reason for all the hoopla at this time of year is because of Christmas and has nothing to do with any other religion's holy days.

I see nothing wrong with wishing people Merry Hannakah , Happy Kwanza, etc.. but these celebrations have nothing to do with Christmas so why try and roll them all up together into a "Happy Holy Day" type greeting. Maybe we should all just celebrate winter and use "Season's Greetings".

I would suggest to the retailers that they continue to use "Merry Christmas" since Christmas is the reason for all the gift giving/buying at this time of year.

View Poll Results: Does using the phrase Happy Holidays constitute a War on Christmas?
Yes	17	12.32%
No	106	76.81%
I'm not sure	5	3.62%
I have no opinion	10	7.25%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

12-13-2005, 06:53 AM	#2 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	This is such a non-issue. What is it? Does Bill O'Reilly have nothing better to rail against this week? Seriously. We in North America live in multicultural societies. At one point we were nations made up of predominantly one religion, Christianity (and it's various branches). This is no longer the case. Many other cultures and religions are part of the make up of our nations. Why wouldn't we make the effort to be more inclusive rather than the opposite? Happy Holidays is an inclusive statement. It doesn't exclude Christmas or any other celebration. It embraces all at the expense of none. Get over it already and pass the fricken egg nog. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

12-13-2005, 07:14 AM	#3 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	Everyone that I've encountered in the whole world knows that Dec is Christmas, some know that Hannakuh comes too, from Singapore to Iceland. In other countries that have dominating religions, everyone SHARES in the days and greets each other accordingly. No erasing the word to make someone else feel better since it's not that big of a deal anyways to most. Depalvi in India is celebrated in Singapore but the Buddhists don't celebrate it, but the at least acknowledge their fellow countrymen celebrate it. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

12-13-2005, 07:26 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I think its gotten silly with the happy holidays. A better question is, is it offensive to wish someone a merry Chirstmas? My wife does the Christmas card thing, and she got a box of 'happy holiday' cards for the non-Christian types, mostly Jewish. I told her to get some hanukkah cards instead. So while I don't see saying happy holidays as a war on Christmas, I do see it as a cop out to the fear of being non-PC. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

12-13-2005, 07:58 AM	#13 (permalink)
jwoody Shackle Me Not Location: Newcastle - England.	I call it Xmas... or Crimbo. If I was to wish a Buddhist a 'Merry Crimbo', then I'm just telling him that: I had a productive summer, I've survived the worst of the winter and to celebrate I'm going to eat and drink heavily for several consecutive days and I wish for that person to have the means and the time to do the same. How could anyone possibly be offended by that? #edit# P.S. Saying 'Happy Holidays' most definitely constitutes a war on Christmas. __________________ . Last edited by jwoody; 12-13-2005 at 08:02 AM..

12-13-2005, 07:15 AM	#4 (permalink)
albania Psycho	Who cares anyway, Christmas is a made up holiday, it was originally a roman one to celebrate their god, the tree wasn't added until much later by Germans. And it actually being the birth of Jesus is highly speculative. Although i suppose it's better then just picking a day at random, but what I’m saying is if you're that into Christmas, you might want to look into its original meaning, less to do with Jesus more to do with pagans. So why care so much about a made up holiday, does it truly symbolize what people say it does, i don't think so. Almost everyone i know sees Christmas as the time of year you wait in line and receive/give craptacular gifts. So saying happy holidays not necessary from a secular standpoint if you can afford it why not say merry Christmas and a happy new year, too many words for some. Personally i couldn't care less. So I don’t think it’s a war on Christmas, it’s just a preference.

12-13-2005, 07:32 AM	#6 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	The "War on Christmas" is funny for about a few days each year. It's just a bunch of egotistical christians that want everyone to conform to their will.

12-13-2005, 07:43 AM	#7 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Both sides of this argument are patently ridiculous. This is a total non-issue. I can only speculate at the motives of the people who are making such a fuss about it. I have many friends who are observant jews. To a one, when wished a merry Christmas, will smile and say, "Thanks!". Or maybe, "I don't celebrate Christmas, but thanks! Merry Christmas to you!" Guess what? Non-christians actually don't get offended when you make assumptions about their faith. They're used to it. Most of my jewish friends LOVE Christmas, and are happy to be taking part in our celebration of it. One of them was really excited to be able to come decorate our tree with us yesterday. On the other hand, what the hell does it hurt to have a little sensitivity? It's NICE to be respectful of other people and their faith. Christmas is all ABOUT being nice to people (cf. Eben. Scrooge, et al). Being wished "Happy Holidays" doesn't detract from my Christmas observance in the slightest. Are Christians really so offended to be reminded that there are non-Christians in the world at this, their most holy shopping season? What's REALLY an attack against Christmas is those damn card-carying atheists who are celebrating an evil sham of American Right-Wing Norman Rockwell Christmas. Look! ratbastid doesn't even believe in Christ! And he's got a Christmas tree up! And LOOK!! Stockings! Hung by the chimney with care! HEATHEN! BUUUURRRN!!!!

12-13-2005, 08:01 AM	#16 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Shit like this is what happens when parties let their fringe groups flap their lips too much. I'm so sick of extremists on both sides dominating debate. I'm just as sick of liberals who get their panties in a bunch over hearing the word Christmas as I am of conservatives that get all offended by the word Holidays. Why can't we just round up those people on both sides, drop them off on a remote island with a shitload of weapons and let them fight it out? Once the victors in 'War on Christmas' have been decided we can nuke the island and forget about them once and for all. Yeah, you won but you're still dead!!!

12-13-2005, 08:03 AM	#18 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	you do know that Landover Baptist Church is a parody, right?

12-13-2005, 08:07 AM	#20 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Well the Republicans are about to learn that you can't pander to extremists during the election year and then forget about them for the rest of the term. Democrats need to take note on this too.

12-13-2005, 08:37 AM	#23 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I was raised conservative, protestant, Christian. There were times that we had no tree, exchanged no gifts, and we NEVER pretended, or acknowledged Satan, I mean Santa, except with distain. We infact did not even wrap gifts with paper that had images of Santa on them. As an adult, and parent, I took my daughter to see Santa. I will take my daughter to the Christmas program at church. There are many different religions and cultures who celebrate this time of year for many good reasons and I see no reason to throw out the whole celebration of a certain culture or religion simply because I don't agree with all of it. I normally say Merry Christmas because that is what I grew up with and am most comfortable with. Even though Christ-Mass was considered a 'pagan' celebration by my religious peers. Protestants do not hold mass of any sort. But I celebrated it as a Christ centered holiday so called it by the most common name. I am not offended by someone saying Happy Holidays because it does acknowledge other celebrations as well and I am not going to take someone else's celebration from them simply because I don't PERSONALLY celebrate it. The debate about having a Christmas tree here, I found interesting. A Christmas tree is not a purely 'Christian' image used in Christmas celebration. Christmas (as well as Halloween) has elements of many other religions. The Catholic church merged a few 'pagan' traditions into it's celebrations in hopes of making the pagans more comfortable with worshiping with the Catholic church. Growing up my parents (in particular my mother) had a problem with putting up a tree of any kind and in the end allowed us to put one up so long as we did not put ANY gold or silver decorations on the tree. She based her belief on the reference in Jeremiah 10:2-5 where it refers to 'heathen' putting up a tree and worshiping it. "For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; theyfasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." So in some areas of the protestant faith, people believe that a Christmas tree is an idol and image that us pagans 'worship'. I ask you - how many of you have bowed down to your Christmas tree lately or prayed to it?? Happy Holidays? - go ahead and say it but don't you dare complain if I still say "Merry Christmas". __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

12-13-2005, 08:40 AM	#24 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	I really don't give a crap. When I see arguments like these it really just reminds me how stupid and petty people are. WHY DOES ANYONE CARE? __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

12-13-2005, 08:46 AM	#25 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	No, and it's pretty fucking retarded to say so. Happy Saturnalia.

12-13-2005, 08:46 AM	#26 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	yet another faux news non issue. unlike most other such, this one is funny...the premise is an imperial daydream of universal christianity.....wall to wall, all the same....it should not be---- no-one who is not xtian and who finds themselves nevertheless participant in an xtian annual cycle should have the audacity to write or exchange seasonal greetings....why this is obviously an affront to xtians everywhere--presenting them with the fact that not everyone is like them during the time of year when dreaming about an xtian world is most appealing. this is an evident index of angst amongst the folk who run the right media apparatus--alienation of the far right xtian base---this sad, tedious meme would bypass all contact with reality (again) and provide the far right xtian base with a reason to feel solidarity with a wider political context during those brief moments of reflection that punctuate sustained retail experiences. like when you are standing in a line at a cash register waiting to pay. while you read the information on the box of a computer game the main objective of which is to kill as many arabs as possible, say. channel that irritation into something useful. in this way, you see fox news trying to help. yay faux news. yay bill o'reilly. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

12-13-2005, 08:56 AM	#28 (permalink)
Eweser Psycho Location: O-K-L-A-H-O-M-A	It seems that people have started looking for anything to claim it offends them; "The War on Christmas" is just another one of these. I'm all for making sure that no one is offended, but it does seem to be getting ridiculous and petty. Personally, I use "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Holidays". Sorry in advance if I do offend anyone. I really don't mean to. __________________ "Whoever wrote this episode should die!"

12-13-2005, 09:43 AM	#31 (permalink)
raveneye Born Against	To any kid (from 1 to 92), the phrase "Merry Christmas" has a whiff of thrill and magic to it that no other phrase in the English language can equal. "Happy Holidays" is a lukewarm glass of water; "Happy Hannukah" or Kwanzaa don't do much for me either. But Bill O'Reilly's war on Christmas? It's so laughable that my first reaction was: this can't be real, this is some sort of a parody? If the Onion were to try to think up a parody of Bill whose purpose was to point out how ludicrous, petty, and obsessed he is, it's really hard to think of a better one than this.

12-13-2005, 09:55 AM	#32 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	In my hometown, the local university lit up their "Holiday Tree" this year just like they have done every year for the past several years (BIG ceremony with singing and speeches and hot chocolate, etc.). And they've always called it a "Holiday Tree." However, this year they suddenly made it onto the hit list of the Christmas Soldiers and boycotts were threatened, letters written, television reports filed, and donations pulled back. Next year, they'll have a Christmas Tree, even though nobody really cared (or even noticed) until this year that it was a "Holiday Tree." Weird. Now, on the flip side of that, I'm disappointed in businesses that are afraid of the word "Christmas" and they've trained and threatened all their employees to avoid the word at all costs. It's the same mistake as above, just on a different side of the river. If a Jewish person made a remark about lighting a menorah, would you jump up his ass and tell him it's a "Holiday Candlestick Holder?" Therefore, if the non-Christians would lighten up a little bit, then the Christian weirdos wouldn't have anything to protest and boycott (in theory). Let Christians have Christmas, let Jews have Hannukah, let Africans have Kwanzaa, and let Muslims have Eid El Fitr. People always get into trouble when they start trying to ban things that belong to other folks. But then again, some people live for that shit. __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed.

12-13-2005, 10:06 AM	#33 (permalink)
trickyy ►	yes, this issue is so unimportant it's unbelievable. i like holidays (general term) but i don't do a lot of well-wishing tied to specific days. unless it's "happy birthday." i know people very concerned with whether target employees say MC or HH HH is somewhat of a product of the PC culture, but it is also a fast way to say happy thanksgiving, merry christmas, happy new year... i was wondering if "holidays" could be watered down some more holy should not be acceptible with everyone. is anyone leading a war on holidays? bring on wintervale. it's an idea for next year, maybe. i'd say christmas is safe. then again, the ACLU could sue to have the day stripped of it's status as a national holiday. that would be a great PR move on their part. meanwhile, we are free to run around buying stuff while fighting over semantics in the trenches of walmart entrances everywhere.

12-13-2005, 10:18 AM	#34 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	merry christmas, everybody...and happy new year, too... __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

12-13-2005, 10:31 AM	#36 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	The war on Christmas is a manufactured controversy that gives pundit gasbags something to talk about. It started in earnest when O'Reilly, a Fox talk show host had on a guest, John Gibson, who wrote the book, "The War On Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday Is Worse Than You Thought". John Gibson is a Fox news host. Gee, isn't that a coincidence? So, TV and radio gasbags all o're the land are screaming about this topic. I helped produce a talk show on a day this was the topic. When a caller asked why we were talking about it, the host said, "uh, it's one of those things they say talk radio is talking about." Which pretty much puts it in a nutshell. Have a happy nutsacking!- __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

12-13-2005, 10:33 AM	#37 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	This seems to have been going on long before O'Reilly.. back when i was a wee one in my plaid skirt attending Most Blessed Sacrament.. the big push at Christmas came from the Knights of Columbus.. and that was the Keep Christ in Christmas campaign.. This was to counteract the people shortening Christmas to Xmas... or even happy holidays... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

12-13-2005, 10:37 AM	#38 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	I think that was really a whole other thing than this latest. People have been saying, "keep the Christ in Christmas" for decades. Some who are less than aware what the X in Xmas means (the Greek X, "chi" was a symbol for Christ) also railed against that for a while, but since then the symbol has become fairly common knowledge. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

12-13-2005, 10:38 AM	#39 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Yes, Mal is right, this has been a topic prior to O'Reilly. I can remember rumblings about it back when I was a kid; usually about the use of Xmas. Mostly it was an effort to remember the Christ in Christmas which is always a good reminder. The recent drivel from O'Reilly is just another example of him trying to create mountains out of molehills. If he can just stir up enough mud something will stick. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

12-13-2005, 11:41 AM	#40 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	"Happy Holidays" (holy days) is being used instead of "Merry Christmas" in an effort to not offend anyone but we all know the reason for all the hoopla at this time of year is because of Christmas and has nothing to do with any other religion's holy days. I see nothing wrong with wishing people Merry Hannakah , Happy Kwanza, etc.. but these celebrations have nothing to do with Christmas so why try and roll them all up together into a "Happy Holy Day" type greeting. Maybe we should all just celebrate winter and use "Season's Greetings". I would suggest to the retailers that they continue to use "Merry Christmas" since Christmas is the reason for all the gift giving/buying at this time of year.