The War on Christmas - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-13-2005, 12:02 PM

I think the "war on christmas" might be a little over dramatic but there is something to it. So many double standards in the public realm, like the acknowledgement of holidays like Ramadan and Hannakah in schools, yet it is a violation of the "separation of church and state" if Christmas is mentioned. Sure flaunt the crescent moon, let's light the menorah, hey what's with that manger! You can't do that! Oh and you can't sing Christmas songs in school either, only secular ones. That is pretty lame. Again I don't see how the putting of a manger on government property, or at least acknowledging the fact that Christmas a federally recognized holiday, is about Jesus Christ. What is it with some people.

Here is a PC/parody of a famous "holiday" most of us should remember:

Quote:

'Twas the night before Solstice, and all through the land
the ACLU was watching to keep things in hand.
The children were nestled all snug in their beds,
while forces kept Christmas out of their heads.

When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my bed and heard desperate chatter.
Someone had seen my manger display,
And wailed very loudly - go away, go away.

How could I be so crass, so utterly wrong
So show the infant Jesus and sing him a song?

And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the roof
An ACLU lawyer, looking stern and aloof.
No manger! No caroling! he said with a snort,
And if you don't comply immediately, I'll take you to court!

He was chubby and plump, a right surly old elf,
And I laughed when I saw him in spite of myself.
He dallied no more, but went straight to his phone
Lamenting the manger, in a most pitiful moan.

But I in the spirit, said nothing unkind
Christmas is forgiveness whatever you find.
A wink of his eye and a twist of his head,
Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread.

Christmas will survive, the folks will demand it,
Even if secular lawyers will not understand it.
Then I heard him exclaim, as he drove out of sight,
Happy Solstice to all, and to all a good night!

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-13-2005, 12:06 PM

Here's a pretty asinine interview that happened last year on the O' Reilly Factor, drives home what I was trying to say.

Quote:

BILL O'REILLY, HOST: In the Unresolved Problems segment tonight, the secular assault on Christmas continues all over the USA. Tomorrow night, we'll tell you about how the ACLU (search) is attacking Christmas in Colorado.

But tonight, the New York City school system is involved in a court case. Under current city policy, Jewish menorahs are allowed to be displayed for Hanukkah (search) and the Islamic star and crescent can be shown during Ramadan (search).

But the nativity scene (search) cannot be shown during the Christmas season. Now as you may know, Christmas is a federal holiday signed into law by President U.S. Grant (search). The day honors the philosophy of Jesus. With us now is Mark Green, former New York city public advocate who did run for mayor, maybe mayor some day here in the city.

All right, now look, the Thomas Moore Center (search) is suing the city. The city will not provide any spokespeople, including Mayor Bloomberg (search). They're all frightened to death, because they know they were on the wrong side of this issue.

MARK GREEN, FMR. NYC PUBLIC ADVOCATE: Glad to speak for Mayor Bloomberg in this one...

O'REILLY: All right. You got a menorah, you got the star and crescent, but you can't have a nativity scene on a federal holiday named Christmas. It's insane, right?

GREEN: The opposite of insane. They're not attacking Christianity, they're supporting the First Amendment. Bill, there's a time and a place for everything. And I happen to have friends who celebrate Christmas. What a holiday.

They have family dinners. The next morning under the tree, our presents. I don't remember that...

O'REILLY: All right.

GREEN: And so, if you're spending public money on public education, somebody has to draw a line, difficult as it is. So they decided -- they could be wrong -- let's have a...

O'REILLY: They could be wrong.

GREEN: ... let's have Christmas trees and Santas in schools because they're slightly religious but largely secular.

O'REILLY: Yes. Is it -- is it Santamas? Is it Christmas tree? What -- what's the name of the holiday, Mr. Green?

GREEN: Santa Goldberg.

O'REILLY: No. What's the name of holiday?

GREEN: Well...

O'REILLY: What's the name of the federal holiday, sir?

GREEN: Well, it's called Christmas.

O'REILLY: OK, thank you. That's where we want to start. And it's based upon the philosophy of Jesus Christ, correct? Am I wrong here? That's what the holiday celebrates, the birth of Jesus Christ.

GREEN: We should all celebrate all the holidays.

O'REILLY: No. Let's just walk through this. You just admitted the federal holiday was named Christmas. How could you not? It's based upon the birth of Jesus Christ, correct?

GREEN: Yes.

O'REILLY: So you cannot depict that birth, which a federal holiday is based on. That is insane, sir.

GREEN: Now would you consider it insane if you went to a public school that was 2 percent Jewish and 98 percent Christian and only Jewish symbols were shown, in effect proselytizing, you'd say, excuse me, wait a second. I don't want to be proselytized by another religion. And so there's a time and a place for everything, Bill.

O'REILLY: That's not what's happening here.

GREEN: Let me just finish. One second. One second.

O'REILLY: You have the Menorah...

GREEN: Adults...

O'REILLY: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're going way off the point. You have a Menorah...

GREEN: Adults are different than children.

O'REILLY: No, no. You have a Menorah for Hanukkah.

GREEN: Right, right.

O'REILLY: I'm fine with it. You have a crescent and star, OK, for Ramadan. I'm fine with it.

GREEN: Right.

O'REILLY: You don't have the nativity scene which the Christmas holiday is based on and everybody gets off on the public school system. That is prejudiced against Christians, insane, and insulting to Christians, and every Christian should be outraged about it.

GREEN: Our country is 95 percent Christian.

O'REILLY: Yes.

GREEN: I was a city official, and I got a hundred thousand complaints over 10 years about all kinds of city services. Not one person said, you know, one of the biggest problems in New York is those Jews like Mayor Bloomberg and Joe Klein trying to trick 95 percent majority Christians into converting to Judaism. Bill, get a life. This is absolutely ludi -- I understand we have to have an interesting topic to talk about.

O'REILLY: They're going to lose this lawsuit.

GREEN: Well, one second. Would you agree that no -- nothing touching religious symbols should be -- so it should be equal. So...

O'REILLY: Look...

GREEN: One second. The...

O'REILLY: ... you don't have to believe -- no, no, no, no. No one second.

GREEN: Do you agree -- no Menorah, no nativity scene, no Christmas tree?

O'REILLY: If the federal holiday -- if the federal holiday is repealed, all right, then I'll say fine. It's the federal holiday of Christmas based on the birth of Christ. You can't show that birth. That's insane.

And you know what really bothers me about this?

GREEN: What, Bill?

O'REILLY: The Menorah is up. The crescent and star is up. And the nativity scene can be up because you can admire Jesus the philosopher without believing that he's God as millions of Americans do. It's insulting.

I'll give you the last word.

GREEN: Kids in school can pray. Kids in school can pray silently. They can pray any time they want. Except during classroom hours, they're supposed to learn history. You want to practice your religion, do it on your time in your own church, synagogue, or mosque.

O'REILLY: All right. Difference between a philosopher and a religious person.

GREEN: The ayatollahs of the Republican Party support your point of view...

O'REILLY: Oh, come on. He'll lose...

GREEN: ... and I support the Bill of Rights.

O'REILLY: All right. Mr. Green, thanks very much.

Grasshopper Green · 12-13-2005, 06:01 PM

It used to tickle me to no end to see all of the "Jesus is the reason for the season" signs up all over the place when I lived in the South, and then read the paper or watch the news the day after Black Friday and see the accounts of people punching/biting/attacking each other over the great sales at Walmart. My mom works at the military base exchange (like a mini mall) and has witnessed many accounts of unruly behavior during the holiday season. Merry Christmas indeed.

As for me, I usually say Merry Christmas, but it's only because it's a habit, and not because of any religious significance. You can count me in as one of those heathens who takes part in the festivities without reference to religion at all.

ktspktsp · 12-13-2005, 07:15 PM

I don't think there's a war on xmas. I think there is a war in xmas. On our ears. Using horrific remixes of xmas songs.

However:

My parents are legally muslim (dad) and christian (mom), though we had a mostly atheist home. The one holiday we celebrated was xmas though (tree and gifts and all). So xmas is a meaningful event to me, though it's always been secular in my mind.

Anyway, I enjoy being told happy <insert holiday name here> from someone celebrating that holiday, and certainly return the wishes.

maximusveritas · 12-13-2005, 07:26 PM

Mojo_PeiPei, thanks for posting that interview. It was a perfect example of how O'Reilly spins the issues to deceive and confuse his audience while simultaneously shouting down and diverting his guests so that they can't properly rebut his deceptions and lies.
New York City's policy was perfectly in line with prior precedent set by the Supreme Court. Schools are allowed to display secular items like Christmas trees and menorahs, but can't display overtly religious items like the nativity scene. That's the line they drew and while some may not completely agree with it, it's the law of the land. It's no wonder then that the Thomas More Center lost their lawsuit last year.
This whole thing is just a way for demagogues like O'Reilly and Gibson to make some more money by further dividing this country. It's good to see that most people here aren't buying into it.

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-13-2005, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximusveritas

Mojo_PeiPei, thanks for posting that interview. It was a perfect example of how O'Reilly spins the issues to deceive and confuse his audience while simultaneously shouting down and diverting his guests so that they can't properly rebut his deceptions and lies.
New York City's policy was perfectly in line with prior precedent set by the Supreme Court. Schools are allowed to display secular items like Christmas trees and menorahs, but can't display overtly religious items like the nativity scene. That's the line they drew and while some may not completely agree with it, it's the law of the land. It's no wonder then that the Thomas More Center lost their lawsuit last year.
This whole thing is just a way for demagogues like O'Reilly and Gibson to make some more money by further dividing this country. It's good to see that most people here aren't buying into it.

Since when is the Menorah or Crescent moon "secular", are you serious? The symbols that coincide with Religious holidays of hannkah and Ramadan are secular? No. That is the double standard that is perpetuated on Christians in this country for fear of not being PC. It is insulting to me as a christian that the country is too afraid to acknowledge in the public realm a federal holiday which celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ (don't argue the name sake for historical purposes, it's all the same). Even if you are not Christian you are a fugazee if you don't recognize as a philosopher and person of histroy he is the most influential man that has ever lived. So either live up to what you claim, or drop it entirely, I'm sick of the double standard.

Quote:

And Joseph went up from Galilee to Bethlehem with Mary, his espoused wife, who was great with child. And she brought forth a son and wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger because there was no room for them in the inn. And the angel of the Lord spoke to the shepherds and said, "I bring you tidings of great joy. Unto you is born a Savior, which is Christ the Lord."

"There's a problem with the angel, "said a Pharisee who happened to be strolling by. As he explained to Joseph, angels are widely regarded as religious symbols, and the stable was on public property where such symbols were not allowed to land or even hover. "And I have to tell you, this whole thing looks to me very much like a Nativity scene," he said sadly. "That's a no-no, too." Joseph had a bright idea. "What if I put a couple of reindeer over there near the ox and ass?" he said, eager to avoid sectarian strife. "That would definitely help," said the Pharisee, who knew as well as anyone that whenever a savior appeared, judges usually liked to be on the safe side and surround it with deer or woodland creatures of some sort. "Just to clinch it, throw in a candy cane and a couple of elves and snowmen, too," he said. "No court can resist that." Mary asked, "What does my son's birth have to do with snowmen?"

"Snowpersons," cried a young woman, changing the subject before it veered dangerously toward religion. Off to the side of the crowd, a Philistine was painting the Nativity scene. Mary complained that she and Joseph looked too tattered and worn in the picture. "Artistic license," he said. "I've got to show the plight of the haggard homeless in a greedy, uncaring society in winter," he quipped. "We're not haggard or homeless. The inn was just full," said Mary. "Whatever," said the painter.

Two women began to argue fiercely. One said she objected to Jesus' birth "because it privileged motherhood." The other scoffed at virgin births, but said that if they encouraged more attention to diversity in family forms and the rights of single mothers, well, then, she was all for them. "I'm not a single mother," Mary started to say, but she was cut off by a third woman who insisted that swaddling clothes are a form of child abuse, since they restrict the natural movement of babies.

With the arrival of 10 child advocates, all trained to spot infant abuse and manger rash, Mary and Joseph were pushed to the edge of the crowd, where arguments were breaking out over how many reindeer (or what mix of reindeer and seasonal sprites) had to be installed to compensate for the infant's unfortunate religious character. An older man bustled up, bowling over two merchants, who had been busy debating whether an elf is the same as a fairy and whether the elf/fairy should be shaking hands with Jesus in the crib or merely standing to the side, jumping around like a sports mascot. "I'd hold off on the reindeer," the man said, explaining that the use of asses and oxen as picturesque backdrops for Nativity scenes carries the subliminal message of human dominance. He passed out two leaflets, one denouncing manger births as invasions of animal space, the other arguing that stables are "penned environments" where animals are incarcerated against their will. He had no opinion about elves or candy canes.

Signs declaring "Free the Bethlehem 2" began to appear, referring to the obviously exploited ass and ox. Someone said the halo on Jesus' head was elitist. Mary was exasperated. "And what about you, old mother?" she said sharply to an elderly woman. "Are you here to attack the shepherds as prison guards for excluded species, maybe to complain that singing in Latin identifies us with our Roman oppressors, or just to say that I should have skipped patriarchal religiosity and joined some dumb new-age goddess religion?" "None of the above," said the woman, "I just wanted to tell you that the Magi are here."

Sure enough, the three wise men rode up. The crowd gasped, "They're all male!" And "Not very multicultural!" "Balthasar here is black," said one of the Magi. "Yes, but how many of you are gay or disabled?" someone shouted. A committee was quickly formed to find an impoverished lesbian wise-person among the halt and lame of Bethlehem. A calm voice said, "Be of good cheer, Mary, you have done well and your son will change the world." At last, a sane person, Mary thought. She turned to see a radiant and confident female face. The woman spoke again: "There is one thing, though. Religious holidays are important, but can't we learn to celebrate them in ways that unite, not divide? For instance, instead of all this business about 'Gloria in excelsis Deo,' why not just 'Season's Greetings'?" Mary said, "You mean my son has entered human history to deliver the message, 'Hello, it's winter'?" "That's harsh, Mary," said the woman. "Remember, your son could make it big in midwinter festivals, if he doesn't push the religion thing too far. Centuries from now, in nations yet unborn, people will give each other pricey gifts and have big office parties on his birthday. That's not chopped liver." "Let me get back to you," Mary said.

pan6467 · 12-13-2005, 09:12 PM

Christmas is still very much about goodwill toward people. We just live in a commercialized world now, but people are pretty much the same individually. Now in groups, or places like here where anonymity is the thing people can say how they truly feel and get very little retribution for it.

With commercialism comes Politicall Correct terms and the destruction of the "Christmas"........ Stores do not want to offend their shoppers, thus they can't wish "Merry Christmas" for fear a needed sector of their market maybe lost.

Every time I go out people still say Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidays, people still donate heavily to the Salvation Army and good causes and people still get goose pimples watching "It's a Wonderful Life", some form of the many versions of "A Christmas Carol" and when they hear a Christmas song.......

But granted by the middle of December people get sick of it. After all the commercials and the stores start selling the season the day after Holloween.

But the hope, goodwill and beauty of the season are still there..... maybe harder to see because of all the commercialism but the major reason for the holiday still exists.

Which is wonderful because wouldn't the cold of Winter be even worse without the Holiday season and all the good and bad that goes with it?

Just look how from Jan. to Easter and the begingings of Spring are so blase and dreadful.

So whether or not Christmas and the Holiday Season is what is supposed to be, as long as people try and the monotony and just horridness of Winter is broken up by some stranger smiling and wishing me a "Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Season's Greetings.... whatever" it makes this time of year more bearable........ at least to me.

Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Hannakah, whatever it is to you have a great one

alansmithee · 12-13-2005, 09:25 PM

I think there is a slight anti-Christian effort in the changing of "Merry Christmas" to "Happy Holidays". But honestly, I couldn't care less. Christmas has become so secularized anyways that I don't care. I can't wait until the time I'm away from my family and can just ignore it. On Somethingawful, one of the writers discussed this very issue, and I really liked his idea of a generic winter holiday where you just do whatever the hell you want for fun. No stupid obligations, forced purchases to fuel retailer's profits, having to be around people you can't stand and wouldn't be bothered with for the other 364 days of the year, just a day to relax and do what pleases you. It's not like the date is probably correct anyways (I think the Birth of the Lord was more accurately dated to August, but historians disagree). From all I've heard, early on Christian leaders just made up the date to coincide with preexisting holidays (I've heard it was based off a Roman holiday celebrating Saturn, but that might be wrong). So I say bah humbug, and this whole holiday period can kiss my ass.

snowy · 12-13-2005, 10:13 PM

To me, it's the separation of two ideas I have about the holidays:

The "holidays", aka the secularized Christmas, other religious/non-religious holidays, and New Years, are a time to get together, be merry, and to make a lot of cookies and eat a lot of food. It's a time to buy gifts and give gifts, and to receive said gifts. It is a time to put up a decorated tree, lights around the house, and festive decorations. The "holidays" are largely secular--they are Santa Claus, Rudolph, Frosty, etc.

Christmas, to me...the actual HOLIDAY of Christmas, is about the birth of Christ. That piece is separate from the "holidays". It's about realizing what I have received through my faith. To me, it's a time for spiritual reflection and thanksgiving.

Not everyone celebrates Christmas in a religious manner, and that's fine. The fact is that we have to recognize that not everyone celebrates Christmas, religion or no, and as members of a multicultural society we have to find a middle ground. Personally, I don't care one way or another if someone wishes me Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas, because to me there's little distinguishment as the majority of the population means the secularized Christmas.

I'm sure this post didn't make a lot of sense...but in my heart Christmas and the celebration of it (in the religious/spiritual sense) is a deeply personal thing.

genuinegirly · 12-13-2005, 10:42 PM

It's a bunch of bull.
I'm all about saying "Happy Holidays". Not because it belittles Christmas, but because I live in a community with just as many Jews as Christians and I see no point in purchasing more than one style of Christmas card. On top of that, why single out Christmas when New Years is right around the corner.

If you're a stickler for "Merry Christmas" make sure your cards say it, and don't look down on the people who just don't want to say it back. Any intelligent individual wouldn't consider complaining over something as trivial as the wording on a holiday card. The whole concept is ludicrous.

mrklixx · 12-13-2005, 11:34 PM

There should be a war on all holidays. Period.

zz0011 · 12-14-2005, 02:08 AM

Is there a war on Christmas? I think so.

Is "happy holidays" a major salvo in that war? Perhaps. I think it depends on who's saying it and why. I don't think it is for most who use the phrase.

And I agree with the sentiment expressed above about the personal nature of the holidays, especially when and where and how they are considered holy-days by a soul.

But for the life of me I have a hard time understanding those who demand tolerance but then won't tolerate me when I want to say "Merry Christmas" or even "Merry CHRISTmas."

But then I don't understand the reasoning of folks like that on several different issues...

Oh, and by the way, MERRY CHRISTMAS

Yeah, I did that just to tweak those who are bugged by it. If THAT bugs you, seems to me you've got issues as much as those going apoplectic postal over "happy holidays"

Poppinjay · 12-14-2005, 06:24 AM

But do you know anybody that is offended by a Merry Christmas?

I like to hear it, I think it's fine. I just don't think there is a war on Christmas. It's just another way that pundits make money off of manufactured outrage.

Charlatan · 12-14-2005, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

But do you know anybody that is offended by a Merry Christmas?

I like to hear it, I think it's fine. I just don't think there is a war on Christmas. It's just another way that pundits make money off of manufactured outrage.

Exactly what I was thinking. I can't think of a single person who is offended by Merry Christmas. I have had a few Jewish aquantences remind me that they don't celebrate Christmas when I've said it to them but it is always with either a laugh or a dramatic roll of the eyes... to which I say, Happy Chanukah.

I have to admit that I am a bit puzzled by the whole -- Menorah, Crescent, Nativity arguement...

Part of the big issue here is there are many different things at work here:

1) an increasingly diverse population
2) increased sensitivity to other cultures and religions
3) a largely secular aspect to the Holiday that crosses all cultures and religions
4) a few people who are "put out" by the term Holiday.

Here's what you do. Celebrate how you like to celebrate. Say the greeting you like to say and let other say what they want.

If you want a Nativity scene in your school... take it up with the Supreme court.

zz0011 · 12-14-2005, 11:50 AM

I do know of folks who get extremely outraged over "Merry Christmas."

If you don't, great.

They are also people who often cry "tolerance" but apparently it's only a word which means "you let me do / say what I want but don't expect the same from me."

I'm glad not everyone is like that, but some few are making progress LEGALLY on those fronts and that's the part which scares me.

Conform or die! LOL...

Oh well. MERRY CHRISTMAS.

maleficent · 12-14-2005, 11:57 AM

Repeat after me...

BAH HUMBUG!!! It's all purpose and well... it fits the season...!

stevie667 · 12-14-2005, 01:29 PM

I say we burn the politically correct.

Western society is christian by design, our legal and moral system is based on christianism. If you don't like that, i hear antartica is nice this time of year, you have to be careful though, all that snow could be constituted as offensive to bush-men.

Someone fetch me my sword, my horse and my armour, i fancy leading a crusade or three against political correctness. Sign and print on the dotted line if you agree.

...........................................................................................................

I mean honestly, who gets offended by someone saying merry christmas? In case people hadn't noticed, christmas is about presents, not jesus. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to be introduced to the idea of the department store.

Coppertop · 12-14-2005, 02:13 PM

nevermind...

Rekna · 12-14-2005, 02:43 PM

well "happy holidays" is not a war on christmas changing everything that says christmas to holiday seems to me like it is at least an attack if not a war. Holiday tree? Give me a break, can we rename the candles for honikah to Holiday candels too?

There are two groups of people that annoy me 1) is the group of people that have to be in your face christians and make sure everyone knows they are christian and try to force it on everyone else and 2) is the group of in your face athiests that try to make sure that no one else can worship God without feeling like an idiot or like they are infringing on other peoples rights.

What is next? Do we remove the star or angel from the top of christmas trees? Do we rename easter to happy bunny day?

Case in point. Out here in Utah there is a huge stink by athiests who are upset by crosses that are along the highways. These crosses are memorials for fallen highway patrol men and are placed around where they died. These crosses are a memorial to these officers lives. None of the families of these officers have complained about the memorials. Now Utah is special because 60% of our population is mormon. The mormon church does not like the cross and do not believe in displaying crosses but not a single mormon has come out against these crosses because they realize it is a memorial honoring the sacrifice that these men made. The constitution guarentees people the right of religious freedom (atheism included) but does not guarentee the right to shit on everyone elses religion.

Coppertop · 12-14-2005, 02:51 PM

War on drugs.
War on terror.
War on Christmas.

Methinks some would like the meaning of the word "war" to be diluted, and thus more readily accepted by the masses.

Poppinjay · 12-15-2005, 12:35 PM

The Onion pretty much sums my opinion of this matter, with a nice sense of sarcasm.

Charlatan · 12-15-2005, 01:09 PM

Count on the Onion to get to the heart of the matter.

maximusveritas · 12-15-2005, 02:14 PM

Democratic Congressman John Dingell from Michigan has weighed in with a poem that he read on the House floor in response to Republican efforts to push some ridiculous "War on Christmas" bill.
Read it here:
http://www.house.gov/dingell/documen...12-14-05_2.htm

Here's a bit of it:

Quote:

We can pretend that Christmas is under attack

Hold a vote to save it--- then pat ourselves on the back;

Silent Night, First Noel, Away in the Manger

Wake up Congress, they’re in no danger!

This time of year we see Christmas every where we go,

From churches, to homes, to schools, and yes…even Costco;

What we have is an attempt to divide and destroy,

When this is the season to unite us with joy

At Christmas time we’re taught to unite,

We don’t need a made-up reason to fight

So on O’Reilly, on Hannity, on Coulter, and those right wing blogs;

You should just sit back, relax…have a few egg nogs!

‘Tis the holiday season: enjoy it a pinch

With all our real problems, do we honestly need another Grinch?

So to my friends and my colleagues I say with delight,

A merry Christmas to all,

and to Bill O’Reilly…Happy Holidays.

Bill O'Rights · 12-15-2005, 04:07 PM

Quote:

So to my friends and my colleagues I say with delight,

A merry Christmas to all,

and to Bill O’Reilly…Happy Holidays.

I love it!!

The local online rag, that I read, The Omaha World Herald Online, ran a similar poll. The results were the exact opposite of what I'm seeing here. Those that believed that there is truly a "War on Christmas" ran away with it, by about 1700 to 400 that did not believe there was an attack on Christmas. I wish I could access it, but alas...I cannot. I confess to being a little taken aback, realizing of course, just how conservative this area really is, at just how seriously some people are taking this.

To those who do take this so-called War on Christmas seriously, know this. I, a self avowed atheist, in no way, shape or form, want to take the spirituality away from your holiday. All I ask is that you allow me, and the rest of my ilk, to enjoy the secular aspects of it, in relative peace, harmony and goodwill. Isn't that, after all, what it's supposed to be all about? That said, I'm gonna go listen to Chestnuts Roasting On An Open Fire, Winter Wonderland, White Christmas, and a few other secular Christmas songs. And I may even listen to a little Silent Night, or Away in A Manger...just 'cause I like 'em. I'm gonna sip me some mulled wine, stare at my Christmas tree, and basically celebrate the holiday...my way.

Merry Christmas, all.

pan6467 · 12-15-2005, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

I love it!!

The local online rag, that I read, The Omaha World Herald Online, ran a similar poll. The results were the exact opposite of what I'm seeing here. Those that believed that there is truly a "War on Christmas" ran away with it, by about 1700 to 400 that did not believe there was an attack on Christmas. I wish I could access it, but alas...I cannot. I confess to being a little taken aback, realizing of course, just how conservative this area really is, at just how seriously some people are taking this.

To those who do take this so-called War on Christmas seriously, know this. I, a self avowed atheist, in no way, shape or form, want to take the spirituality away from your holiday. All I ask is that you allow me, and the rest of my ilk, to enjoy the secular aspects of it, in relative peace, harmony and goodwill. Isn't that, after all, what it's supposed to be all about? That said, I'm gonna go listen to Chestnuts Roasting On An Open Fire, Winter Wonderland, White Christmas, and a few other secular Christmas songs. And I may even listen to a little Silent Night, or Away in A Manger...just 'cause I like 'em. I'm gonna sip me some mulled wine, stare at my Christmas tree, and basically celebrate the holiday...my way.

Merry Christmas, all.

I think you'll see more of a difference in the Bible Belt. Those are the places where "the War on Christmas" is probably more believed.

To me, Christmas is just a time of year that is supposed to unite, but it truly doesn't matter what you want to call it or when it is, if you truly have the spirit of Christ/Buddha/ any great Master and their teachings within you.

Why?

Because you would have that spirit within you every day and every season.

Guess to the Christian Right though, Christmas is the end all and be all to everything. Another lost message from Christ that they just don't care about. Guess that this is the only time of year they feel they should truly worship Christ.

Celebrate Christ every day not just Christmas.

My religious and spiritual belief is that Easter should be far more important because that was when Christ made the ultimate sacrifice.... and yet this "Great Christian Nation" the Religious Right tries to sell us into believing we are..... barely even recognizes it as anything more than the beginning of Spring.

Guess I'm just whacky, for believing someone's dying to save me from whatever death holds, is more important than celebrating his birth.

Bagezio2 · 12-15-2005, 06:19 PM

Happy Festivus everybody!

pan6467 · 12-15-2005, 06:38 PM

BTW..... I know Atheists that take Christmas far more seriously than some so called Christians.

You can believe in Christ's teachings but not believe in God or the Judeo/Christian/Muslim version.

Gilda · 12-17-2005, 02:56 PM

The Grinch and the War on Christmas

Gilda

Ustwo · 12-17-2005, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

The Grinch and the War on Christmas

Gilda

Heh, I'm glad to see the term 'moonbat' outside of LGF

Cynthetiq · 12-18-2005, 05:40 AM

interesting...

I was thinking about the OP on this the other day and thought, the Bush Administration is damned if you do damned if you don't in this situation. If they put Merry Christmas they be lambasted as promoting a religion, they put Happy Holidays, and they get tossed as the opening salvo to the War on Xmas. Well this newsbit got me thinking just how stupid this whole thing is and how people seem to "romanticize" aspects of life and demand that it be a particular was for them and the rest of the world.

Quote:

Group Fights Wal-Mart on 'Happy Holidays'
LINK
SACRAMENTO, Calif. (Dec. 18) - A group of religious protesters demonstrated outside a Wal-Mart superstore Saturday, hoping to turn away customers by calling attention to the retailer's decision to use "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" in its seasonal advertising.

But even shoppers who agreed with the protesters weren't willing to interrupt their quest for holiday deals.

"I believe in Christ, and I don't like the use of 'xmas' or the use of 'happy holidays,"' said Steven Van Noy, 39, as he left the store loaded down with packages. "The bottom line is that they had what I needed at Wal-Mart, so I went to Wal-Mart to buy it."

Controversy over the secularization of Christmas is nothing new, but this year religious groups are publicly taking on retailers who have decided to tone down the religious aspects of the holiday in their store decorations and promotional material.

In an online petition, the American Family Association recently gathered more than 500,000 signatures asking Target to include Christmas in its promotions. Stores such as Sears and Wal-Mart are facing boycotts.

Wal-Mart spokeswoman Amy Wyatt said the company has made no effort to remove Christmas from its holiday ads. She said a promotion set to run from mid-November to early January was simply misunderstood: its slogan is "home for the holidays."

"It was a matter of choosing a slogan that carries through the entire season," Wyatt said. "The signs went up before Thanksgiving and won't be taken down until after New Year's. The idea was to focus on the family."

About 50 protesters took part in Saturday's demonstration, organized by religious leaders. Dick Otterstad of the Church of the Divide donned a Santa Claus costume and greeted shoppers with the message: Don't forget about the meaning of Christmas.

"It is insulting that Wal-Mart has chosen to ignore the reason for the season," Otterstad said. "Taking the word 'Christmas' out of the holiday implies there's something sinful about it. ... This is a part of our culture."

pan6467 · 12-18-2005, 06:43 AM

So this is what the fuss is all about
A "war on Christmas" sponsored in part by the Right and Pat Robertson no doubt

While across the nation kids get toys
Iraq claims more of our boys

While parents credit covers their cost
We turned blind eyes to what in New Orleans so many lost

So this is the Christmas spirit the Right says is missing
As on our rights George Bush is pissing

So let's keep up this pseudo war
Let's forget all else, we know the score

Let's not focus on what really does matter
Let Wal*Mart, Oil barons and banks make their wallets fatter

Christmas is greed and greed is good
For Christ himself if he were here say it he would

So down with the Left, the Santa and Season's greetings
We need to take the heat off Bush's secret meetings

So a Bah Humbug and a give me mine fuck you
And while we're at it scrape the Constitution off W's shoe......

(sorry couldn't help myself.... move to wherever you deem proper)

pig · 12-18-2005, 07:53 AM

Happy Chrismahannakwanzakah to you...

Xazy · 12-18-2005, 10:17 AM

As someone Jewish, I do not expect a happy hannukah, merry christmas, or anything specific from others. You can say whatever you desire, and I will accept the wishes that is behind the statement

I try to wish friends who I know, according to their belief, but a happy holidays is safe, "P.C." if you would, but the intentions is what counts. I find it funny that people would get upset, that there is no 'norm.' Would these groups be ok, if there was a president who celebrated Kwanza or Hannukah and they sent out cards wishing a holidays greeting in regards to those holidays?!?

Honestly if I heard the president sent out a chrismtas card, i would not care, if he sent out a hannukah one i still would not care. People just need something better to do with their time!

ratbastid · 12-18-2005, 10:22 AM

This is such a tempest in a teapot.

Look: in past years, those SAME PEOPLE have been bitching about the commercialization and co-option of Christmas. "Too much shopping in Christmas", they cried. "Reason for the season!" Remember when "Remember the reason for the season" meant "Don't get carried away with the commercial aspects of Christmas"?

Now there's not enough Christmas in shopping!

Will they ever be satisfied? No! Because they're happiest doing what they're doing right now: bitching.

I don't understand why people think everybody else thinks like them. It's like: I believe in Christ, so all 500 million of you need to say this particular two-word phrase. Control freak much?

Gilda · 12-18-2005, 11:11 AM

Bah. What about those of us who don't celebrate any of them?

Why isn't anyone wishing me a Happy Festivus? I was generous enough to get something for all of you:

Gilda

Coppertop · 12-18-2005, 11:14 AM

Well, I wished you a happy Saturnalia. Is that not good enough?

pig · 12-18-2005, 11:57 AM

Yeah, I can just almost remember a day when I was happy to just sort of get any greeting around this time of year (god forbid I say Holiday greeting!!!); now, of course, I feel obliged to rip the thorasic cavity out of anyone without the proper homage to the proper deity. I really seem to recall that when I was younger, there was virtually no difference between the various phrases you can throw out. It was like you had a choice. I'm glad they buckled down.

Happy Diwali everyone...except Gilda. You, I'll be meeting in the feats of strength and the airing of grievances

ratbastid · 12-18-2005, 03:19 PM

THIS is a great article, from today's NYT:

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/arti...00010000000001

Quote:

Updated: 04:04 PM EST
Good Will Took a Holiday, Whatever You Call It
By PAUL VITELLO, The New York Times

At a Christmas tree lighting ceremony recently in Manhasset, N.Y., a crowd of 200 gasped at the intemperate words uttered by a public official who was angry at a priest for an invocation the official considered too religious.

Holiday displays all over the country are drawing criticism. Some are being called too religious while others are said to be too secular.

In Huntington in nearby Suffolk County, people are still fuming about the lawsuit filed last week to remove the crèche and the menorah displayed on the village green.

In Florida, rather than a complaint about too much religion, conservative Christian lawyers brought suits recently against two towns whose holiday displays on public property the lawyers considered too secular.

The suits demanded that Nativity scenes be placed there, and they were.

If nothing quite says holiday spirit to you like family tension and the perennial rehashing of old scores, then this might be your kind of holiday season.

With a new aggressiveness, some conservative Christian groups have declared war this year against what they see as an attack of secularization on Christmas, using boycotts and lawsuits to invoke the baby Jesus and the words "Merry Christmas" with an unusual fervor.

At the same time, members of other religious groups and civil libertarians have mounted a resistance to what they see as a creeping imposition of religion on public and commercial places, in a few cases filing suits of their own.

But in the vast middle - in that central core of the population where people shop and the Chipmunks sing, and contradictory notions live in peace, and the Festival of Lights shares deep and undisputed psychic space with the glittering Christmas tree - there is a sense of impending loss.

If the bellicose atmosphere of national politics can infect even this season of childhood and enchantment, as this thinking goes, we are all in some kind of big trouble.

"It's like everybody's going crazy," said Liseanne Altmann, a Nassau County legislator from Great Neck, the town next to Manhasset. "I wish they would all chill out a little. At this time of year, the overarching theme should be coming together, not division."

Jim Ellis, an advertising executive strolling past the Christmas-wreathed light poles of downtown Huntington, a minute's sleigh ride from the town's recently contested Nativity scene and menorah display, said such disputes at a time like this were a kind of self-indulgence.

"With all that's going on, I mean kids are dying every day in the war," he said, "and this is what we're worried about? People have too much time on their hands."

It is hardly the first contentious holiday season. In recent decades, civic quarrels over the placement of religious holiday symbols in taxpayer-owned space have resulted in various court decisions, most sanctioning the use of such symbols as long as they are displayed in a sort of panoply of the religious and the secular - a crèche beside a menorah beside a Santa and a Kwanzaa kinara, for example.

But in the uncharted territory of a conflict whose terms are as often unspoken as they are openly discussed, there can be surprises like the one that happened in Manhasset on Dec. 2, when the Rev. Nick Zientarski invoked "Jesus Christ, our Lord" in blessing the Christmas tree at a public ceremony across the street from the North Hempstead Town Hall.

Town Supervisor Jon Kaiman, who had presided at the ceremony, was heard muttering angrily during the blessing. After Father Zientarski finished, Mr. Kaiman stood up and addressed the crowd of about 200.

"This is inappropriate," the supervisor said of the invocation. "I just want to make it clear that this is in no way a religious ceremony."

Mr. Kaiman's response was considered rude by an overwhelming majority of several hundred people who e-mailed or phoned his office afterward to complain.

"Manhasset is a predominantly Christian town and a conservative town," one of Father Zientarski's parishioners told Newsday.

A prominent local citizen, the Fox News commentator Bill O'Reilly, who has made what he calls the "war on Christmas" a regular feature of "The O'Reilly Factor," scolded Mr. Kaiman on the air.

"It never occurred to me that I was stepping into this national discussion," Mr. Kaiman said in a telephone interview on Thursday. "The depth of the passion people feel about this issue was really eye-opening."

In several letters and opinion articles published in local newspapers, and in a series of meetings with residents, Mr. Kaiman has apologized for what he conceded was the rudeness of his response.

Similar waves of condemnation befell Mitchell Pashkin after he filed suit on Dec. 7 to force Huntington to dismantle its traditional holiday display of a Nativity scene and a menorah in a public park. He said they violated the First Amendment's establishment clause, but later agreed to a compromise wherein the symbols were accompanied by signs explaining their provenance - the crèche from a Catholic group, the menorah from a synagogue.

"It's not about Christmas," said Mr. Pashkin, a town resident and a lawyer, who received dozens of angry phone calls after his suit was publicized. "It's about whether religious symbols should be displayed on public property at all. The government should not be seen as endorsing anybody's religion."

The same religious holiday display had been put up in the same park for years, and had offended him all along, but what made him file the suit this year was hard for him to identify.

"I just thought it was time to do it," Mr. Pashkin said.

The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, suggested that civil libertarians everywhere were on heightened alert, consciously or not, because of the Rev. Jerry Falwell's widely publicized "Friend or Foe" Christmas campaign, an effort to counter perceived attacks against Christmas.

The Falwell campaign, which was announced soon after Thanksgiving, threatened boycotts against the retailers Wal-Mart, Target and Lowe's for using the term "holiday" instead of "Christmas" in advertising.

An affiliated group, Liberty Counsel, brought suit to force the Florida towns of Neptune Beach and Wellington to include Nativity scenes in displays that previously featured only a Christmas tree and a menorah. The group threatened to sue an elementary school in Dodgeville, Wis., where in a school play about a homeless family, the lyric of the song "Silent Night" was changed to eliminate religious references.

"This campaign has never been so aggressive as it is now," Mr. Lynn said. "They have 1,500 lawyers standing by, ready to promote this idea they have, what I call this Christian triumphalism, anywhere they can gin up some case."

Mathew D. Staver, president and general counsel of Liberty Counsel, said the campaign only sought "to make sure that Christmas is not censored from the holiday season."

"We have a national holiday called Christmas," Mr. Staver said in an interview, "and the central meaning of Christmas is the birth of Jesus."

In Manhasset the other day, a woman passing the Christmas tree that started the angry tensions was asked what she made of it all.

"I am French," said the woman, Gigi Anderson, a real estate agent in Manhasset for more than 30 years. "I maybe have a different view than most Americans, but in France we do not make so much of religious matters. They are private matters."

Patricia Sciortino, shopping bags in each hand and the cold weather's rouge in both cheeks, voiced a more common American view of religious observance. It is a shared experience, she said, something akin to the block party, where everyone brings a dish.

"I think we should all celebrate everything," said Mrs. Sciortino, who was interviewed in Manhasset. "We should have Christmas, we should have Hanukkah and whatever people have. I think we should all learn to respect each other. Everyone should have the right to be who they are. That's what the country is all about."

"Have a nice day," she added.

flstf · 12-18-2005, 03:49 PM

I read in the local paper today that several large Christian churches are cancelling their Christmas services this year that fall on a Sunday. Something about too few people available for the service because they prefer to stay home and celebrate with the kids. Sounds like they have their own war against Christmas going on.

ShaniFaye · 12-19-2005, 05:00 AM

Happy Holidays just doesnt do it for me, Merry Christmas is what I want to hear!!!

true story....with all the "crap" going around about this, I decided to "try" not to offend anyone and on our message board when you walk in our office I used the magnetic letters to spell out happy holidays. When I came into work the next morning, the letters were on my desk with a note...."Try again, its MERRY CHRISTMAS" hehehe, I gotta just love the people I work with hehehehehe

View Poll Results: Does using the phrase Happy Holidays constitute a War on Christmas?
Yes	17	12.32%
No	106	76.81%
I'm not sure	5	3.62%
I have no opinion	10	7.25%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

12-13-2005, 06:01 PM	#43 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	It used to tickle me to no end to see all of the "Jesus is the reason for the season" signs up all over the place when I lived in the South, and then read the paper or watch the news the day after Black Friday and see the accounts of people punching/biting/attacking each other over the great sales at Walmart. My mom works at the military base exchange (like a mini mall) and has witnessed many accounts of unruly behavior during the holiday season. Merry Christmas indeed. As for me, I usually say Merry Christmas, but it's only because it's a habit, and not because of any religious significance. You can count me in as one of those heathens who takes part in the festivities without reference to religion at all. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

12-13-2005, 09:12 PM	#47 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Christmas is still very much about goodwill toward people. We just live in a commercialized world now, but people are pretty much the same individually. Now in groups, or places like here where anonymity is the thing people can say how they truly feel and get very little retribution for it. With commercialism comes Politicall Correct terms and the destruction of the "Christmas"........ Stores do not want to offend their shoppers, thus they can't wish "Merry Christmas" for fear a needed sector of their market maybe lost. Every time I go out people still say Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidays, people still donate heavily to the Salvation Army and good causes and people still get goose pimples watching "It's a Wonderful Life", some form of the many versions of "A Christmas Carol" and when they hear a Christmas song....... But granted by the middle of December people get sick of it. After all the commercials and the stores start selling the season the day after Holloween. But the hope, goodwill and beauty of the season are still there..... maybe harder to see because of all the commercialism but the major reason for the holiday still exists. Which is wonderful because wouldn't the cold of Winter be even worse without the Holiday season and all the good and bad that goes with it? Just look how from Jan. to Easter and the begingings of Spring are so blase and dreadful. So whether or not Christmas and the Holiday Season is what is supposed to be, as long as people try and the monotony and just horridness of Winter is broken up by some stranger smiling and wishing me a "Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Season's Greetings.... whatever" it makes this time of year more bearable........ at least to me. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Hannakah, whatever it is to you have a great one __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 12-13-2005 at 09:16 PM..

12-13-2005, 10:13 PM	#49 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	To me, it's the separation of two ideas I have about the holidays: The "holidays", aka the secularized Christmas, other religious/non-religious holidays, and New Years, are a time to get together, be merry, and to make a lot of cookies and eat a lot of food. It's a time to buy gifts and give gifts, and to receive said gifts. It is a time to put up a decorated tree, lights around the house, and festive decorations. The "holidays" are largely secular--they are Santa Claus, Rudolph, Frosty, etc. Christmas, to me...the actual HOLIDAY of Christmas, is about the birth of Christ. That piece is separate from the "holidays". It's about realizing what I have received through my faith. To me, it's a time for spiritual reflection and thanksgiving. Not everyone celebrates Christmas in a religious manner, and that's fine. The fact is that we have to recognize that not everyone celebrates Christmas, religion or no, and as members of a multicultural society we have to find a middle ground. Personally, I don't care one way or another if someone wishes me Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas, because to me there's little distinguishment as the majority of the population means the secularized Christmas. I'm sure this post didn't make a lot of sense...but in my heart Christmas and the celebration of it (in the religious/spiritual sense) is a deeply personal thing. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

12-13-2005, 10:42 PM	#50 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	It's a bunch of bull. I'm all about saying "Happy Holidays". Not because it belittles Christmas, but because I live in a community with just as many Jews as Christians and I see no point in purchasing more than one style of Christmas card. On top of that, why single out Christmas when New Years is right around the corner. If you're a stickler for "Merry Christmas" make sure your cards say it, and don't look down on the people who just don't want to say it back. Any intelligent individual wouldn't consider complaining over something as trivial as the wording on a holiday card. The whole concept is ludicrous. __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

12-13-2005, 07:15 PM	#44 (permalink)
ktspktsp Addict Location: Reykjavik, Iceland	I don't think there's a war on xmas. I think there is a war in xmas. On our ears. Using horrific remixes of xmas songs. However: My parents are legally muslim (dad) and christian (mom), though we had a mostly atheist home. The one holiday we celebrated was xmas though (tree and gifts and all). So xmas is a meaningful event to me, though it's always been secular in my mind. Anyway, I enjoy being told happy <insert holiday name here> from someone celebrating that holiday, and certainly return the wishes.

12-13-2005, 07:26 PM	#45 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	Mojo_PeiPei, thanks for posting that interview. It was a perfect example of how O'Reilly spins the issues to deceive and confuse his audience while simultaneously shouting down and diverting his guests so that they can't properly rebut his deceptions and lies. New York City's policy was perfectly in line with prior precedent set by the Supreme Court. Schools are allowed to display secular items like Christmas trees and menorahs, but can't display overtly religious items like the nativity scene. That's the line they drew and while some may not completely agree with it, it's the law of the land. It's no wonder then that the Thomas More Center lost their lawsuit last year. This whole thing is just a way for demagogues like O'Reilly and Gibson to make some more money by further dividing this country. It's good to see that most people here aren't buying into it.

12-13-2005, 09:25 PM	#48 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	I think there is a slight anti-Christian effort in the changing of "Merry Christmas" to "Happy Holidays". But honestly, I couldn't care less. Christmas has become so secularized anyways that I don't care. I can't wait until the time I'm away from my family and can just ignore it. On Somethingawful, one of the writers discussed this very issue, and I really liked his idea of a generic winter holiday where you just do whatever the hell you want for fun. No stupid obligations, forced purchases to fuel retailer's profits, having to be around people you can't stand and wouldn't be bothered with for the other 364 days of the year, just a day to relax and do what pleases you. It's not like the date is probably correct anyways (I think the Birth of the Lord was more accurately dated to August, but historians disagree). From all I've heard, early on Christian leaders just made up the date to coincide with preexisting holidays (I've heard it was based off a Roman holiday celebrating Saturn, but that might be wrong). So I say bah humbug, and this whole holiday period can kiss my ass.

12-13-2005, 11:34 PM	#51 (permalink)
mrklixx President Rick Location: location location	There should be a war on all holidays. Period. __________________ This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent. This is not a link - Do not click here I hate animated avatars.

12-14-2005, 02:08 AM	#52 (permalink)
zz0011 Crazy Location: buckle of the snow belt	Is there a war on Christmas? I think so. Is "happy holidays" a major salvo in that war? Perhaps. I think it depends on who's saying it and why. I *don't* think it is for most who use the phrase. And I agree with the sentiment expressed above about the personal nature of the holidays, especially when and where and how they are considered holy-days by a soul. But for the life of me I have a hard time understanding those who demand tolerance but then won't tolerate me when I want to say "Merry Christmas" or even "Merry CHRISTmas." But then I don't understand the reasoning of folks like that on several different issues... Oh, and by the way, MERRY CHRISTMAS Yeah, I did that just to tweak those who are bugged by it. If THAT bugs you, seems to me you've got issues as much as those going apoplectic postal over "happy holidays" __________________ 10th sig ~> "How many a dispute could have been deflated into a single paragraph if the disputants had dared to define their terms?" -- Aristotle

12-14-2005, 06:24 AM	#53 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	But do you know anybody that is offended by a Merry Christmas? I like to hear it, I think it's fine. I just don't think there is a war on Christmas. It's just another way that pundits make money off of manufactured outrage. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

12-14-2005, 11:50 AM	#55 (permalink)
zz0011 Crazy Location: buckle of the snow belt	I do know of folks who get extremely outraged over "Merry Christmas." If you don't, great. They are also people who often cry "tolerance" but apparently it's only a word which means "you let me do / say what I want but don't expect the same from me." I'm glad not everyone is like that, but some few are making progress LEGALLY on those fronts and that's the part which scares me. Conform or die! LOL... Oh well. MERRY CHRISTMAS. __________________ 10th sig ~> "How many a dispute could have been deflated into a single paragraph if the disputants had dared to define their terms?" -- Aristotle

12-14-2005, 11:57 AM	#56 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Repeat after me... BAH HUMBUG!!! It's all purpose and well... it fits the season...! __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

12-14-2005, 01:29 PM	#57 (permalink)
stevie667 Too Awesome for Aardvarks Location: Angloland	I say we burn the politically correct. Western society is christian by design, our legal and moral system is based on christianism. If you don't like that, i hear antartica is nice this time of year, you have to be careful though, all that snow could be constituted as offensive to bush-men. Someone fetch me my sword, my horse and my armour, i fancy leading a crusade or three against political correctness. Sign and print on the dotted line if you agree. ........................................................................................................... I mean honestly, who gets offended by someone saying merry christmas? In case people hadn't noticed, christmas is about presents, not jesus. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to be introduced to the idea of the department store. __________________ Office hours have changed. Please call during office hours for more information.

12-14-2005, 02:13 PM	#58 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	nevermind...

12-14-2005, 02:43 PM	#59 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	well "happy holidays" is not a war on christmas changing everything that says christmas to holiday seems to me like it is at least an attack if not a war. Holiday tree? Give me a break, can we rename the candles for honikah to Holiday candels too? There are two groups of people that annoy me 1) is the group of people that have to be in your face christians and make sure everyone knows they are christian and try to force it on everyone else and 2) is the group of in your face athiests that try to make sure that no one else can worship God without feeling like an idiot or like they are infringing on other peoples rights. What is next? Do we remove the star or angel from the top of christmas trees? Do we rename easter to happy bunny day? Case in point. Out here in Utah there is a huge stink by athiests who are upset by crosses that are along the highways. These crosses are memorials for fallen highway patrol men and are placed around where they died. These crosses are a memorial to these officers lives. None of the families of these officers have complained about the memorials. Now Utah is special because 60% of our population is mormon. The mormon church does not like the cross and do not believe in displaying crosses but not a single mormon has come out against these crosses because they realize it is a memorial honoring the sacrifice that these men made. The constitution guarentees people the right of religious freedom (atheism included) but does not guarentee the right to shit on everyone elses religion.

12-14-2005, 02:51 PM	#60 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	War on drugs. War on terror. War on Christmas. Methinks some would like the meaning of the word "war" to be diluted, and thus more readily accepted by the masses.

12-15-2005, 12:35 PM	#61 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	The Onion pretty much sums my opinion of this matter, with a nice sense of sarcasm. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

12-15-2005, 01:09 PM	#62 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Count on the Onion to get to the heart of the matter. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

12-15-2005, 06:19 PM	#66 (permalink)
Bagezio2 Tilted Location: Astoria, Queens, NY	Happy Festivus everybody!

12-15-2005, 06:38 PM	#67 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	BTW..... I know Atheists that take Christmas far more seriously than some so called Christians. You can believe in Christ's teachings but not believe in God or the Judeo/Christian/Muslim version. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

12-17-2005, 02:56 PM	#68 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	The Grinch and the War on Christmas Gilda __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert

12-18-2005, 06:43 AM	#71 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	So this is what the fuss is all about A "war on Christmas" sponsored in part by the Right and Pat Robertson no doubt While across the nation kids get toys Iraq claims more of our boys While parents credit covers their cost We turned blind eyes to what in New Orleans so many lost So this is the Christmas spirit the Right says is missing As on our rights George Bush is pissing So let's keep up this pseudo war Let's forget all else, we know the score Let's not focus on what really does matter Let Wal*Mart, Oil barons and banks make their wallets fatter Christmas is greed and greed is good For Christ himself if he were here say it he would So down with the Left, the Santa and Season's greetings We need to take the heat off Bush's secret meetings So a Bah Humbug and a give me mine fuck you And while we're at it scrape the Constitution off W's shoe...... (sorry couldn't help myself.... move to wherever you deem proper) __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

12-18-2005, 07:53 AM	#72 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	Happy Chrismahannakwanzakah to you... __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

12-18-2005, 10:17 AM	#73 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	As someone Jewish, I do not expect a happy hannukah, merry christmas, or anything specific from others. You can say whatever you desire, and I will accept the wishes that is behind the statement I try to wish friends who I know, according to their belief, but a happy holidays is safe, "P.C." if you would, but the intentions is what counts. I find it funny that people would get upset, that there is no 'norm.' Would these groups be ok, if there was a president who celebrated Kwanza or Hannukah and they sent out cards wishing a holidays greeting in regards to those holidays?!? Honestly if I heard the president sent out a chrismtas card, i would not care, if he sent out a hannukah one i still would not care. People just need something better to do with their time!

12-18-2005, 10:22 AM	#74 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	This is such a tempest in a teapot. Look: in past years, those SAME PEOPLE have been bitching about the commercialization and co-option of Christmas. "Too much shopping in Christmas", they cried. "Reason for the season!" Remember when "Remember the reason for the season" meant "Don't get carried away with the commercial aspects of Christmas"? Now there's not enough Christmas in shopping! Will they ever be satisfied? No! Because they're happiest doing what they're doing right now: bitching. I don't understand why people think everybody else thinks like them. It's like: I believe in Christ, so all 500 million of you need to say this particular two-word phrase. Control freak much?

12-18-2005, 11:11 AM	#75 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	Bah. What about those of us who don't celebrate any of them? Why isn't anyone wishing me a Happy Festivus? I was generous enough to get something for all of you: Gilda __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert

12-18-2005, 11:14 AM	#76 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	Well, I wished you a happy Saturnalia. Is that not good enough? Last edited by Coppertop; 12-18-2005 at 11:18 AM..

12-18-2005, 11:57 AM	#77 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	Yeah, I can just almost remember a day when I was happy to just sort of get any greeting around this time of year (god forbid I say Holiday greeting!!!); now, of course, I feel obliged to rip the thorasic cavity out of anyone without the proper homage to the proper deity. I really seem to recall that when I was younger, there was virtually no difference between the various phrases you can throw out. It was like you had a choice. I'm glad they buckled down. Happy Diwali everyone...except Gilda. You, I'll be meeting in the feats of strength and the airing of grievances __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

12-18-2005, 03:49 PM	#79 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I read in the local paper today that several large Christian churches are cancelling their Christmas services this year that fall on a Sunday. Something about too few people available for the service because they prefer to stay home and celebrate with the kids. Sounds like they have their own war against Christmas going on.

12-19-2005, 05:00 AM	#80 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Happy Holidays just doesnt do it for me, Merry Christmas is what I want to hear!!! true story....with all the "crap" going around about this, I decided to "try" not to offend anyone and on our message board when you walk in our office I used the magnetic letters to spell out happy holidays. When I came into work the next morning, the letters were on my desk with a note...."Try again, its MERRY CHRISTMAS" hehehe, I gotta just love the people I work with hehehehehe __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*