Goldfish Go Blind in Round Bowls, Let's Ban 'Em - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

maleficent · 10-25-2005, 11:33 AM

Quote:

ROME, Italy (Reuters) -- The city of Rome has banned goldfish bowls, which animal rights activists say are cruel, and has made regular dog-walks mandatory in the Italian capital, the town's council said on Tuesday.

The classic spherical fish bowls are banned under a new by-law which also stops fish or other animals being given away as fairground prizes. It comes after a national law was passed to allow jail sentences for people who abandon cats or dogs.

"It's good to do whatever we can for our animals who in exchange for a little love fill our existence with their attention," said Monica Cirinna, the councilor behind the by-law.

"The civilization of a city can also be measured by this," she told Rome daily Il Messaggero.

The newspaper reported that round bowls caused fish to go blind. No one at Rome council was available to confirm this was why they were banned. Many fish experts say round bowls provide insufficient oxygen for fish.

In July 2004, parliament passed a law setting big fines and jail terms for people who abandon pets and since then local governments have added their own animal welfare rules many of which will be difficult to police.

The northern city of Turin passed a law in April to fine pet owners up to 500 euros ($597.7) if they do not walk their dogs at least three times a day.

The new Rome by-law requires owners to regularly exercise their dogs, and bans them from docking their pets' tails for aesthetic reasons.

It also provides legal recognition for cat lovers who provide food for the colonies of strays which live everywhere from the city's ancient Roman ruins to modern office car parks.

Animal rights groups estimate that around 150,000 pet dogs and 200,000 cats are abandoned in Italy every year.

I had to double check to make sure that this wasn't Rome, New York...

Walking a dog three times a day? It's good business for dog walkers but what about people who have jobs...

I'm all for the ethical treatment of animals, but this seems a bit ridiculous to legislate it.

The wise ass in me wants to see a goldfish be given an eye test, or glasses for when it can't see. I'd imagine when I had my pirhana I'd have been arrested for feeding them goldfish... but really it was only the ones who wanted to die...

BigBen · 10-25-2005, 11:47 AM

Hey, I love animals; let me preface what I am about to say with that...

How would they enforce this? House-to-house searches? No, Ben, you have it all wrong... neighbours are supposed to turn each other in! Oh, great, just one more thing to make me feel alienated from my community.

If you come to my door and claim that I am not walking my dog enough, I will respond with an inappropriate amount of rage, followed by the words "Prove It."

To think that people have enough time in their lives to worry about the welfare of a 10 cent fish. No, even worse, about their fucking eyesight.

I know I am going to eventually edit this post, but man am I feeling jaded and cynical right now. Fucking politicians annoy me sometimes. Please worry about the big things first. That is what society is paying you for.

raeanna74 · 10-25-2005, 11:57 AM

Ok it's good for a person to walk their pets thrice daily but what if the person happens to get sick one day? They let him out on his leash in the back yard for 10 minutes while he goes to throw chucks again. So if the dog poops and the guy bring him back in without sufficient 'exercise' they're going to fine or arrest this guy? Besides - how much is a 'regular dog-walk' 5 minutes, 10 minutes? How're they gonna even know? What if they say it has to be 10 minutes, I gotta go to the bathroom at 9 minutes and bring my dog in?

This is a little invasive and controlling for them to make laws like this? Not taking your dog for a sufficiently long walk 3 times a day is a far cry from chaining him in the back yard, day and night, rain or snow, and letting him sleep in a tiny wooden box and even worse - not feeding him daily.

I can't imagine the logistics and time spent trying to enforce this. I doubt this will last long. The money spent to enforce this will cost too much too quickly for politicians to stick by it for long.

And the goldfish thing? What reliable source is gonna stand by that one? How obsurd! If a gold fish isn't getting sufficient oxygen, you know what happens? They die - end of story.

maleficent · 10-25-2005, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Animal rights groups estimate that around 150,000 pet dogs and 200,000 cats are abandoned in Italy every year.

That's a lot of animals, I have no idea what that number would be in other cities, but if they are trying to 'protect the animals' and 'let's think about the animals' wouldn't liscensing them and proof of spaying or neutering part of the license be more effective?

maleficent · 10-25-2005, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

And the goldfish thing? What reliable source is gonna stand by that one? How obsurd! If a gold fish isn't getting sufficient oxygen, you know what happens? They die - end of story.

And then they get flushed.. a lovely burial at sea... maybe the authorities would need to be called and an autopsy on the fishie would beed to be performed...

politicophile · 10-25-2005, 12:05 PM

When I see examples like this one, I think about how socialist Europe is becoming overly willing to legislate the daily affairs of its citizens. This is clearly a law that is overly invasive, disrespectful to the good judgment of pet owners, and not based on the actual physical needs of animals.

Where is the compelling state interest in banning goldfish bowls? Why the hell are we even assuming that goldfish have rights that the government should defend? Unless I'm missing something here, it's still legal in Rome to kill a fish, chop it up, and eat it. If that's legal, then what does it matter that round goldfish bowls supposedly cause the fish to go blind?

I'm being driven towards libertarianism on a daily basis, it seems...

denim · 10-25-2005, 12:43 PM

If they manage to enforce the dog walking rule, I expect they'll have a lot of dogs put down as a result.

Willravel · 10-25-2005, 01:33 PM

What are Rome's laws about children? Are you required to peel your 12 year old away from his PS2 3 times a day and run him? Have they banned children from watching TV, as it can have a negetive effect on eyesight over a long period of time? Perhaps it is time to check our priorities.

serlindsipity · 10-25-2005, 01:40 PM

i really really want to see the scientific study on goldfish going blind in Round Bowls. Lack of Oxygen? Change the damn water!

cyrnel · 10-25-2005, 02:04 PM

The eyesight thing made me smile. Which came first: Bug-eyed goldfish or goldfish bowls?

Still, those things do mess with optics. We must look pretty crazy to the fishes.

The new laws aren't economical but they fit with our broader understanding of non-human life. Conflicts with our ancient assumptions and behavior are unavoidable. If we can't treat all people equally, where do the critters fit? And what qualities makes a life-form worthy vs. dinner?

I watched a science special a few months ago that touched on veterinarians. They mentioned how in the 80's working on birds was weird but now mainstream. They now treat pet fish, where 10yrs ago that was also weird. What's next?

Then again, 25yrs ago I never would have believed tool-making crows, or chimps & gorillas who speak sign-language. It makes you think.

BigBen · 10-25-2005, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

And then they get flushed.. a lovely burial at sea... maybe the authorities would need to be called and an autopsy on the fishie would beed to be performed...

Coroner: My GOD MAN!! This fish was completely blind at the time of death... who owned this little goldie?!?

Police Detective: Our files say that the fish matches the description of one that belongs to a "BigBen". We've had problems with this piece of shit before. He takes his dog for 7.548 minute walks when it drops to -25c, instead of the regulated 10 minutes. Do you think the blindness was caused by a round fishbowl, doc?

Coroner: I hope not. Let me run some more tests. Go pick this BigBen up, and if he gives you the slightest trouble...

Detective: I know, doc, I know. Two shots to the chest, one to the head. I can't believe that people raise their kids to become like this. I think I am going to be sick.

feelgood · 10-25-2005, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Animal rights groups estimate that around 150,000 pet dogs and 200,000 cats are abandoned in Italy every year.

I find that number hard to believe, at this rate...cat and dogs are gonna out-number humans living in Rome.

jorgelito · 10-25-2005, 03:22 PM

Ahem - We missed the obvious: Who might enforce this you say?

Wait for it....

*cue superhero music*

Ace Ventura, Pet Detective!!!!! Of course!

I love the idea of little prescription eyeglasses for the goldfish (Thanks Mal for the hilarious visual, I haven't stopped laughing yet!)

Ben, you do realize that Dr. Dolittle will be very busy performing "petopsies" in the morgue eh?

stevie667 · 10-25-2005, 03:37 PM

Damn right, goldfish bowls (your bog standard ones) suck, and giving away fish at a fair is just cruel to begin with.

Go rome!

Grasshopper Green · 10-25-2005, 03:46 PM

Hmmm...my goldfish has lived in a circular bowl his entire life (2 years!) and he freaks out and begins a frantic fishie dance whenever me or my husband walk into the room. Unless he has ESP, then I'm guessing he can SEE us. I guess I should go ask him eh....

jujueye · 10-25-2005, 04:00 PM

I was thinking about the whole round bowl oxygen thing, and it begins to make sense. Compare a square fish tank to a bowl, both containing a gallon of water, then examine the top surface of the water which is exposed to outside air. The square tank obviously would have more surface area available for oxidation compared to the top of the spherical bowl. Otherwise, maybe the Italians are taking in a bit too much Chianti...(if I were a fish, I would want to swim in wine for sure

I tried to find a picture of a goldfish wearing glasses, but none were available. This is the closest I could find. She looks rather goldfishy.

cyrnel · 10-25-2005, 04:21 PM

Or...

Manuel Hong · 10-25-2005, 07:47 PM

bwaaahaaa haaaaa haaaaa haaaa!!!!!! that photoshop is priceless!

Laws to protect animals are great to bring issueslike pet abandonment to the public's conciousness. Some people are bad pet owners and may get some sort of nudge when there are regulations...I can't imagine most infractions being noticed...

Anyone who abandons a pet should be punished. Heartily.

stevie667 · 10-26-2005, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa99

Hmmm...my goldfish has lived in a circular bowl his entire life (2 years!) and he freaks out and begins a frantic fishie dance whenever me or my husband walk into the room. Unless he has ESP, then I'm guessing he can SEE us. I guess I should go ask him eh....

I don't believe the going blind crud, thats bs of the highest order, but the fact that he freaks out everytime you walk in the room is of some concern.

dlish · 10-26-2005, 05:35 AM

has anyone realised that most golfish in bowls are always alone.

which brings me to my next point...with who else will the goldfish find sexual gratification except with its own fins?!?!?!

yes masturbation makes you go blind...

now...wheres my guide dog....

Blaise · 10-26-2005, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jujueye

Compare a square fish tank to a bowl, both containing a gallon of water, then examine the top surface of the water which is exposed to outside air. The square tank obviously would have more surface area available for oxidation compared to the top of the spherical bowl.

That's right- the amount of water in contact with the air is much too small, especially for goldfish who are coldwater fish (these require more water anyway as less oxygen can be held in cool water) and produce lots of ammonia that builds up in the water. Kept in proper tanks they tend to live much longer- 20-40 years is perfectly normal.

I don't think it should be a crime as people buy bowls out of ignorance or cheapness rather than deliberate animal abuse, but I do think they should perhaps stop the things being manufactured in the first place. Then if people want a fish hopefully the only option at most shops will be a small tank instead. It's not as if they're ridiculously expensive, but when the average person who knows nothing about fish has a choice between a cheap tank and a cheap bowl, they'll often pick the bowl if they're being sold as apparantly acceptable pet housing.

maleficent · 10-26-2005, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaise

but I do think they should perhaps stop the things being manufactured in the first place..

They are banning them... which is less severe than making it a crime....

However, (and I really do like animals) in the grand scheme of things, the eyesight of a disposable pet should only be on some politicians radar if they've solved every other problem plaguing their city.

Suave · 10-26-2005, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBen

To think that people have enough time in their lives to worry about the welfare of a 10 cent fish. No, even worse, about their fucking eyesight.

The point of being compassionate towards animals specifically avoids the price you've paid for one. A 10 cent goldfish's life and well-being is worth no more than a ten thousand dollar horse's. If you are going to get a pet, you should invest the time and effort in seeing that it lives as healthy and good a life as you can provide.

IamtheSuffering · 10-26-2005, 01:14 PM

I am completley against animal cruelty, but this seems to go to far. The goldfish bowl thing I can agree with, but having a FINE for not walking a dog? I agree they need to be outdoors and they need a bit of freedom, but giving a fine for just not walking them seems ludacris. Most people don't have the time OR effort to take a dog out 3 times a day...I have 2 dogs and I rarely get a chance to get them out that often anymore...

Grasshopper Green · 10-26-2005, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevie667

I don't believe the going blind crud, thats bs of the highest order, but the fact that he freaks out everytime you walk in the room is of some concern.

I have always chalked it up to us getting close = food. Then again, I don't have fish ESP

Atropos4 · 10-26-2005, 05:17 PM

Why can't the people with the goldfish bowls just buy a bubbler? I had one in mine and they cost, what, two dollars?

The dog walking law is ridiculous. I wouldn't be able to do that, and I can't afford a pet sitter.

shakran · 10-26-2005, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamtheSuffering

I am completley against animal cruelty, but this seems to go to far. The goldfish bowl thing I can agree with, but having a FINE for not walking a dog? I agree they need to be outdoors and they need a bit of freedom, but giving a fine for just not walking them seems ludacris. Most people don't have the time OR effort to take a dog out 3 times a day...I have 2 dogs and I rarely get a chance to get them out that often anymore...

I think the point of the law is, if you don't have the time, don't get the pet. Far too many people get a dog even though everyone in the house works long hours and the dog ends up in a cage for 10-14 hours per day. How would you like to spend your whole life not being allowed out of your house but one or two times per day for a few minutes at a time?

It's not cruel to the dog in the sense that you're not beating him or starving him, but it isn't the best life for the animal either.

If you can't take a dog out 3 times a day then you need to rearrange your priorities. Hell, that's once in the morning, once when you get home, and once before bed. Why is that so hard? I think the real statement is "I don't WANT to take the dog out 3 times a day" which is fine, but if you feel that way, then you shouldn't have a dog.

stevie667 · 10-27-2005, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa99

I have always chalked it up to us getting close = food. Then again, I don't have fish ESP

lol, good point, i thought you meant it more in the sense of a minor psyciatric breakdown

10-25-2005, 11:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	Hey, I love animals; let me preface what I am about to say with that... How would they enforce this? House-to-house searches? No, Ben, you have it all wrong... neighbours are supposed to turn each other in! Oh, great, just one more thing to make me feel alienated from my community. If you come to my door and claim that I am not walking my dog enough, I will respond with an inappropriate amount of rage, followed by the words "Prove It." To think that people have enough time in their lives to worry about the welfare of a 10 cent fish. No, even worse, about their fucking eyesight. I know I am going to eventually edit this post, but man am I feeling jaded and cynical right now. Fucking politicians annoy me sometimes. Please worry about the big things first. That is what society is paying you for. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

10-25-2005, 11:57 AM	#3 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	Ok it's good for a person to walk their pets thrice daily but what if the person happens to get sick one day? They let him out on his leash in the back yard for 10 minutes while he goes to throw chucks again. So if the dog poops and the guy bring him back in without sufficient 'exercise' they're going to fine or arrest this guy? Besides - how much is a 'regular dog-walk' 5 minutes, 10 minutes? How're they gonna even know? What if they say it has to be 10 minutes, I gotta go to the bathroom at 9 minutes and bring my dog in? This is a little invasive and controlling for them to make laws like this? Not taking your dog for a sufficiently long walk 3 times a day is a far cry from chaining him in the back yard, day and night, rain or snow, and letting him sleep in a tiny wooden box and even worse - not feeding him daily. I can't imagine the logistics and time spent trying to enforce this. I doubt this will last long. The money spent to enforce this will cost too much too quickly for politicians to stick by it for long. And the goldfish thing? What reliable source is gonna stand by that one? How obsurd! If a gold fish isn't getting sufficient oxygen, you know what happens? They die - end of story. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

10-25-2005, 12:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	When I see examples like this one, I think about how socialist Europe is becoming overly willing to legislate the daily affairs of its citizens. This is clearly a law that is overly invasive, disrespectful to the good judgment of pet owners, and not based on the actual physical needs of animals. Where is the compelling state interest in banning goldfish bowls? Why the hell are we even assuming that goldfish have rights that the government should defend? Unless I'm missing something here, it's still legal in Rome to kill a fish, chop it up, and eat it. If that's legal, then what does it matter that round goldfish bowls supposedly cause the fish to go blind? I'm being driven towards libertarianism on a daily basis, it seems... __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

10-25-2005, 01:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
serlindsipity Psycho Location: Boulder Baby!	i really really want to see the scientific study on goldfish going blind in Round Bowls. Lack of Oxygen? Change the damn water! __________________ My third eye is my camera's lens.

10-25-2005, 02:04 PM	#10 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	The eyesight thing made me smile. Which came first: Bug-eyed goldfish or goldfish bowls? Still, those things do mess with optics. We must look pretty crazy to the fishes. The new laws aren't economical but they fit with our broader understanding of non-human life. Conflicts with our ancient assumptions and behavior are unavoidable. If we can't treat all people equally, where do the critters fit? And what qualities makes a life-form worthy vs. dinner? I watched a science special a few months ago that touched on veterinarians. They mentioned how in the 80's working on birds was weird but now mainstream. They now treat pet fish, where 10yrs ago that was also weird. What's next? Then again, 25yrs ago I never would have believed tool-making crows, or chimps & gorillas who speak sign-language. It makes you think. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

10-25-2005, 12:43 PM	#7 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	If they manage to enforce the dog walking rule, I expect they'll have a lot of dogs put down as a result.

10-25-2005, 01:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	What are Rome's laws about children? Are you required to peel your 12 year old away from his PS2 3 times a day and run him? Have they banned children from watching TV, as it can have a negetive effect on eyesight over a long period of time? Perhaps it is time to check our priorities.

10-25-2005, 03:22 PM	#13 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Ahem - We missed the obvious: Who might enforce this you say? Wait for it.... cue superhero music Ace Ventura, Pet Detective!!!!! Of course! I love the idea of little prescription eyeglasses for the goldfish (Thanks Mal for the hilarious visual, I haven't stopped laughing yet!) Ben, you do realize that Dr. Dolittle will be very busy performing "petopsies" in the morgue eh?

10-25-2005, 03:37 PM	#14 (permalink)
stevie667 Too Awesome for Aardvarks Location: Angloland	Damn right, goldfish bowls (your bog standard ones) suck, and giving away fish at a fair is just cruel to begin with. Go rome! __________________ Office hours have changed. Please call during office hours for more information.

10-25-2005, 03:46 PM	#15 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	Hmmm...my goldfish has lived in a circular bowl his entire life (2 years!) and he freaks out and begins a frantic fishie dance whenever me or my husband walk into the room. Unless he has ESP, then I'm guessing he can SEE us. I guess I should go ask him eh.... __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

10-25-2005, 04:00 PM	#16 (permalink)
jujueye alpaca lunch for the trip Location: in my computer	I was thinking about the whole round bowl oxygen thing, and it begins to make sense. Compare a square fish tank to a bowl, both containing a gallon of water, then examine the top surface of the water which is exposed to outside air. The square tank obviously would have more surface area available for oxidation compared to the top of the spherical bowl. Otherwise, maybe the Italians are taking in a bit too much Chianti...(if I were a fish, I would want to swim in wine for sure I tried to find a picture of a goldfish wearing glasses, but none were available. This is the closest I could find. She looks rather goldfishy.

10-25-2005, 04:21 PM	#17 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Or... __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

10-25-2005, 07:47 PM	#18 (permalink)
Manuel Hong Addict Location: Land of the puny, wimpy states	bwaaahaaa haaaaa haaaaa haaaa!!!!!! that photoshop is priceless! Laws to protect animals are great to bring issueslike pet abandonment to the public's conciousness. Some people are bad pet owners and may get some sort of nudge when there are regulations...I can't imagine most infractions being noticed... Anyone who abandons a pet should be punished. Heartily. __________________ Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

10-26-2005, 05:35 AM	#20 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	has anyone realised that most golfish in bowls are always alone. which brings me to my next point...with who else will the goldfish find sexual gratification except with its own fins?!?!?! yes masturbation makes you go blind... now...wheres my guide dog.... __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

10-26-2005, 01:14 PM	#24 (permalink)
IamtheSuffering Upright	I am completley against animal cruelty, but this seems to go to far. The goldfish bowl thing I can agree with, but having a FINE for not walking a dog? I agree they need to be outdoors and they need a bit of freedom, but giving a fine for just not walking them seems ludacris. Most people don't have the time OR effort to take a dog out 3 times a day...I have 2 dogs and I rarely get a chance to get them out that often anymore...

10-26-2005, 05:17 PM	#26 (permalink)
Atropos4 Think about it Location: North Carolina	Why can't the people with the goldfish bowls just buy a bubbler? I had one in mine and they cost, what, two dollars? The dog walking law is ridiculous. I wouldn't be able to do that, and I can't afford a pet sitter. __________________ Minds are like parachutes. They work better open. "If I were Hermione, I would have licked his pantleg." Last edited by Atropos4; 10-26-2005 at 05:22 PM..