canuckguy

well said mate.

Charlatan

That's so nice... you're actually going to let me take my pick of insults? How kind.


English is largely spoken around the world, not only because the US is a superpower but because the UK is both a major economic power and because of the UK's colonial influence. People in these nations were speaking English long before the US was a player. The fact that three of the G8 nations speak English while none of the other share a language, add to the mix, Australia, Hong Kong, New Zealand, India and other former colonies in the British Commonwealth and you have a lot of Nations speaking English.

I don't disagree that the US is part of the reason just that it is the only reason.

---
Other Nations do spend a lot of the time looking internally. The fact is, that the US econmony can't fart with out having an effect on most other nations. Again, no one is disputing the fact that American (hell any nation) doesn't really *need* to look beyond their boarders. But until our nations are completely cut off from each other in some sort of sci-fi future, we are all living on the same planet and we are all exerting some sort of influence on each other. Don't you think it would be somewhat useful to understand something of each other?

As for the policy vs. the individual your reading is off base. I get no financial reward from my friendships with many of the individuals on this board and in the rest of my life. What many react when they say they don't agree with US policy are things like the many military incursions the US has made around the globe, the positions the US takes on things like Kyoto (right or wrong), etc. People are frustrated that your nation has the ability to change their world, their lives and they have no way to stop it. I know this is something that would piss you off. Why not try standing in someone else's shoes for a change... of that's right you don't give a shit (as your post clearly indicates).

Again, I really don't care if American's or anyone cares to look beyond their borders... why should they. Just remember when you have your head in the sand your ass is exposed. Don't be surprised if someone tries to kick you in the ass.

If anything, you have give us a clear example of the brand of American arrogance that pisses off other nations. I thank you for this.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

alansmithee

It's already been decided that the rest of the world doesn't like Americans, and are saying we are ignorant, arrogant, deluded, etc. So why should Americans be any more considerate? It's the US who has the power, not the other way around. It's other countries who seek advantage from us, who want our dollars. I know there is a two-way street and America benefits as well, but our deficit would point to the fact that the world is getting more from us than we get from the world. So apparently the rest of the world is dealing with people they obviously find lower and/or unpleasant just for cash. I don't think my "insults" are all that off-target especially since they seem to be true.

As for english, obviously the UK's colonialism has alot to do with english being predominant globally. But I don't think that would be the case currently w/o the US and their economic power, especially since english is taught greatly in public school systems which grew greatly as the UK's power was declining.



It's useful for the world to understand the US. It's not as practical the other way around. Again, with the US having the power, things are usually done on our terms. Other countries have more to gain, so they should be expected to make more of a sacrifice.

Here I think we're getting to the real point. The rest of the world is jealous of the power that America has. They resent the US because they have a great deal of military and economic power.

The way I see things, when there was great polarization between the USSR and the US, it was easy for many nations to get behind the US. After WWII, while America built militarily (which was a big change, as early as the 1910-20's most Americans were proud of how small the military was) the remainder of the western world was able to stand back under the US's protective umbrella and develow their economies. This was really true in NATO, where Europe and the US had an official body that at least partially combined militarily. The US got to act as counter to the USSR (or vice versa if you favor Stalinism/Communism) and play at world police all the while having a positive externality of protection to western Europe. Fast forward to the collapse of the Soviet Union, where America is the remaining top dog. You have a western Europe who has had approx. 50 years of revitalized economy, and no longer have the cold war tensions. You also have an America with a bloated military that was built to fight a war that never happenend, and an enemy that is no longer there. For this the American economy has been severly stunted. Now, to me it seems like Europe expected the US to go into the sunset with the USSR, and allow Europe to get back to dictating the affairs of the world as they had for about 700 years previous to WWII. No gratitude, no understanding, just resentment that the US didn't just disappear as a world power. And that's why I think many Americans didn't understand European reaction to the Iraqi war. For years, they had pretty much been allies, and in the US's first major action post-Cold war they instantly turn on us. Instead of getting behind us, allowing us some leeway, they turned on us like ungrateful dogs. They expected the US to not have personal interests, and wanted the US's power to be a communal power. I personally believe that Europe would've been against us with any action we took post-cold war, simply as a statement against the US and not for any ideological reason. It's not like the US has been horribly egregious with their use of power post-WWII, especially in comparison to what other world powers have done. And I'm also not saying that Europe should be lapdogs, but the vehemence of foreign reaction has been stunning for me at least, and somewhat eyeopening. the rest of the world doesn't seem to want to work together, they seem to want to take what benefit they can from US and nothing more. Essentially, I see Europe as wanting the UN, WTO, global treaties, etc. simply as a check/limiting factor on US power.


Why does so-called American arrogance piss of other nations? You've said yourself that many of my points about American power is true. You say look at it from someone else's shoes, why don't you try the same. Do you think about Uruguay and who happens to be in charge there? Or what about Laos? What are some of the economic problems facing Liechtenstein? Do you know? Well, most other countries are like these in comparison to the US. They have little individual impact on us. Yet you expect the US to pay attention to you while you don't look at these (and other smaller nations). Now who's the arrogant one?

Again, at the federal level is where foreign relations are dealt with in America. If the general public doesn't pay much attention to other countries, it's largely by design. They just have little effect on day-to-day life. As I said, when there's actually a country with enough strength to affect Americans in general, they will pay attention. But until then, it's pretty much a hobby for people, or the domain of people who deal with international business.

Janey

now that's a stretch. don't know where you ever got that idea. Certainly wasn't in my mind. oh, and I like my own money just fine thank you.

Elphaba

I've never read anything that smells worse than the many unfounded "facts" that Alansmithee holds true.

No wonder Americans as a whole are despised by so many.

vautrain

54:40...

Elphaba

Good gawd, almighty... you could not have said anything more ignorant given that there is a drive toward a market driven, global economy. My *state* depends on foreign trade for it's survival. Apples, timber, even the geoducks are economic resources dependent on foreign trade. This is NOT a hobby.

Sheesh

alansmithee

The support you've given is obviously of the highest quality and totally disputes what I said...wait there is no support. Just a weak flame attempt. No wonder message board posters are generally thought to be ignorant.

alansmithee

Nice how you missed:

But I guess facts just get in the way of making a point, right .

And the items you listed make up only a small portion Washington state's total exports (at least in 1999, the most recent data I could find quickly).

But since it's so essential, would you mind giving me a quick briefing of the politics of your state's largest trading partners?


Also an explanation why despite America's apathy toward the rest of the world, why (at least in Washington, according to the data I found) trade has gone increasingly up? I don't know, maybe this obsession with other countries' domestic issues that the world has for the US isn't necessary for trade (at least in the US)?

Aladdin Sane

Oh how little most non-Americans actually know about the United States. This would not be so troubling if they were aware of their ignorance of us; instead, many very intelligent people believe they know a great deal about the United States, when in reality all they know is the rather trite, insipid, or simplistic version they see on their national television newscast and read about in their evening newspaper-- media outlets that are no less malevolent than those operating in Kansas City or Ft. Worth.

The "enlightened" foreigners' opinion of this nation, when ungilded, is akin to a primitive chant that is religiously shouted to the sky five times daily so as not to let in any contrary spirits: People good! Government bad! People good! Government bad! Imperialism, Guns, and Poverty! Imperialism, Guns, and Poverty!

And it's no wonder they have this one-eyed view of the United States. Consider the billions foreigners spend to import and surround themselves with the most popular and crass elements of American culture. If a Hollywood film about "life in America" makes $150 million at home it typically makes three times that much overseas.

To coin a phrase, it is much easier to educate the self-described ignoramous than to enlighten the self-deceived fool.

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

JumpinJesus

My experience with how people outside the borders of our nation view us can be summed up with these two little anecdotes:

1. I spent 4 years in Germany. While out with some friends one night in a German restaurant, there was a table of other Americans in the restaurant the same time we were there. They were drinking and being a tad bit obnoxious. Their waiter spoke very little English to them. When the waiter would walk away, they would say to each other, "Why don't they learn to speak English? We saved their asses. They need to learn to respect us." Remember, this was in a German restaurant in Germany. These are the same people who bitch that those who come to America won't learn English.

2. I spent many, many nights in Luxembourg. The club I used to frequent was a melting pot of Europe. The people who worked there came from Spain, Belgium, Italy, England, France, Germany, you name it. I became friends with many of them over the course of a few years. It took them nearly a year to realize that I was American and not British. When they realized I was an American, they were truly shocked. When I asked why, the reply was, "Because most Americans we get in here get loud and insulting and love to fight." They told me it was entertainment for them to watch the Americans come in and bet how long it would be before they were asked to leave.

Granted, with population of nearly 300 million, it's impossible to peg us in any particular fashion, but it's always been my understanding that in most circumstances around the world, the view of Americans is that we're arrogant, ignorant, and obnoxious.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

jwoody

I'd like to add that some Americans like to argue minute political details in general discussion threads.

The truth is, I only tthink about Americans when one of their sitcoms or dramas appear on my Tv. As I reach for the remote control, my only thought is "..is there something else on the other channel?"

__________________
.

Charlatan

I just though I'd repost this for AlladinSane because I think it is important in understanding why many abroad know so much and yet so little about the US.


To add to this...

Many Americans, and rightly so as AlanSmithee shows us above, care not a whit about the outside world until they are told to by the nightly news or (on two occassions) they are attacked on native soil.

I remember well after 9/11 the blank looks on *many* Americans faces, "Why do they hate us?", "Why did this happen?". Many have no idea what the support of their lifestyle costs in terms of asserting "American interests" globally (largely it is the western nations and not just America that bears the brunt of this, America being the "top dog" just wears the biggest target). It isn't just the military incursions but it is also corporate interests around the globe that trample the rights of individuals, it is institutions like the IMF that insist on privatizing natural resources like water, it is a skewed view through American cultural industries and if you stir in a large number of tourists as described above you start to get a picture of why people don't like the US.

Is this view correct. Sometimes, not always but sometimes. It doesn't matter if they've got the whole picture. It matters that this is how they understand you and keeping your head stuck in the sand and not paying attention to, or worse not caring how your corporations and governement are treating other nations is what leads things like 9/11.

What I am getting at is yes, it is important to understand what is happening in the rest of the world, especially considering (as is rightly pointed out) the US is by far the 100 pound economic gorilla in the room. As I said above, the US has the power and when they shift so shifts other parts of the world. US citizens effected by economic shifts can exert some sort of power through elections and the court system. Foreigners effected by the US, have two choices... roll over or roll over. For some, rolling over enough times leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Janey

Steady kiddo, before the mods get at you. Manners are important too. Demonstrates good breeding.

Lasereth

I agree that the US government has made some bad decisions concerning international politics, but there are a few points that most outsiders don't realize.

Since the early 1900's, the US government has taken a view on helping world issues. If there is an international issue that needs to be solved but the funds or manpower are preventing it, the US has made the decision to intervene. Sometimes this helps, sometimes it does not. <B>At least we're trying to help</B>. Most "bad" things are reported on the news overseas by these descriptions. When's the last time you saw news on how many dollars are being spent in South Africa? They're not exactly in a good situation.

Which would benefit more, the US attempting to help world issues and failing at some, or the US completely abandoning those in need? Our government realized in the early 1900's that we were going to become the world superpower, hence the president declaring the US as the country that intervenes in times of need. There is good intervention and bad intervention, but it's debatable to say if no intervention at all is better.

Just a little insight from an average American on how our government works concerning international issues. We're not out to concur the world or take over your oil. Our government acts when there's a world issue and no one is doing anything about it, and with that comes the good and the mistakes.

-Lasereth

__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

JustJess

Lasereth, I appreciate your optimism. I agree we're not all bad, and there are lots of good things we do. However... there are lots of bad things too, to put it simply. As much as I'd like to believe the way you do... I'm pretty cynical at this point. Oil is more of a factor than any of us would like to admit. But I digress, as usual.

Thanks to all who are being honest - I appreciate the perspective. In fact, I'm surprised more people aren't more against the US! Rude American posts aside, most of us can appreciate an outside point of view, if only for the information. Perhaps people aren't getting the right info about us, our policies, outside the US, and perhaps they are; but we don't know until someone tells us. Thanks!

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

Charlatan

I don't disagree that the US does a lot of good around the World. Just for clarity: A LOT OF GOOD. Many may dispute the intentions and motivations behind the reason for this "good' but I won't. Good is good is good (be it employment, relief efforts, etc.).

This doesn't change the fact that a lot of bad stuff also happens (as you rightly point out).

1) the bad stuff looks better on tv news (sad but true and given where poeple get their information from this is where opinions are made).
2) the bad stuff isn't always being done by the government. US controlled corporations (Fruit Companies in Central America, Oil Companies in Aftrica, for example) have been doing some bad things as well and these create much more personal impressions than any newscast ever would.

I am not saying that other nations and their corporations are not just as guilty of these actions... they are. The truth is, you want to be a Superpower you are going to get a lot of slings and arrows.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Gary_the_Rat

I'm pretty eager to get out of the US. At least for a while.

skier

Just wanted to point out that until the end of 1941, when America was directly attacked by the Axis, the vast majority of americans supported the isolationist stance that was reflected in governmental policy. Throughout the 1800's the USA clung steadfast to the ideal of being independant of britain and basically ignored whatever was going on overseas. It wasn't until world war 1 that the U.S. broke policy to help out, but it was as an associate power instead of an ally. At the end of the war, they never joined the league of nations and returned to isolationism, a stance mainly supported by staunch republicans. Political support for this ideal grew in strength throughout the 20's and 30's.

1940 was the turning point for isolationism. Germany and italy were winning, and americans were worried that they might be next. Given that scenario, the majority, by the autumn of 1940, were willing to help defeat of the Axis even at the risk of war.

But in 1940-1941 many still supported the non-interventionist viewpoint. Although isolationists failed to block proposals by the Roosevelt administration to help the Allies with methods short of war, 80 percent of Americans opposed any declaration of war against the Axis. Not until after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, and Germany and Italy declared war on the US on December 11 did they declare war against the Axis. Afterwards thje roosevelt administration created the united nations, and american policy was supportive of helping other countries.

__________________
"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

Slavakion

Please tell me that alansmithee is a joke account. Please.

Psycho Dad

Are you not a message board poster?

__________________
Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

Charlatan

No he's real, he just had his name changed because he didn't want his name associated with his posts...


for those who don't get the joke: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000647/bio

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Suave

Charlatan that is a great movie. Very zany.

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

texxasco

Not to ruffle any feathers here, but I don't think that why we were attacked mattered in the days and months after 9/11. At that point what mattered was who was responsible, and where were they? Did we have a right to rataliate? You bet. The who and why questions were plastered all over the TV and newspapers for months.. 9/11 rocked most Americans to the core... I can remember watching it unfold on TV at work, and even convicts were moved to tears...many of them wishing they could get out and enlist in the military to help. All day long, except for mass movement, such as feeding times, you coudl walk down any cellblock or into any dorm and here a pin drop almost - the only sounds being the TV and a few convicts talking. I am no softie really, but hearing some of the comments I heard really moved me.

The need to know why it happened was second to who and how then, and even now. Obviously we would like to think we can prevent another occurance, and we might be able to. Overall we have doen a good job in tightening security, and we have a long ways to go.

I just think that had this happened in any other country, canada or elsewhere, the reaction would have been similar.

__________________
...A Bad Day of Fishing is Better Than a Great Day at Work!

texxasco

Why do you fear the U.S.?

Care to elaborate?

__________________
...A Bad Day of Fishing is Better Than a Great Day at Work!

texxasco

Well Said. And unfortunately all Americans are judged accordingly as a result. And, on the flip side a lot of us Americans judge people from other countries similarly.

__________________
...A Bad Day of Fishing is Better Than a Great Day at Work!

texxasco

Thanks for posting that.......... I learned something today.

__________________
...A Bad Day of Fishing is Better Than a Great Day at Work!

QuasiMojo

hm.
WOW

alansmithee makes great sensce <sp?>
Do me a favor
one favor.
Imagine~
if you will
a world without
America.

Lemme tell you son, every thing good and holy would just goddamn evaporate!

__________________
AzAbOv ZoBeLoE

JumpinJesus

Are you saying the world did not exist until 1789? I don't understand.

Sure we've made a lot of contributions throughout our short history, but I highly doubt we're the be-all, end-all of this world and those in it.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

QuasiMojo

J.J> yeah.. I said it.

I'm asking you....Good Sir...Imagine.

When It's all said and done we are indeed
what seperates Law from Chaos.

We are what Prevents

We are The S.S PROPHYLAPTICUS.

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AzAbOv ZoBeLoE

settie

If I as a young adult Canadian were to try and sum up my thoughts on America, I imagine they would be considered by most as naive and judgemental of a country based on its media. And I admit, I don't really pay all that much attention on America. Whether its their politics, people, finances, whatever, I am not mature enough to see past what I read in the newspaper, or see on the news. Heck, I might as well delete all this, because at the end of the day, I've got no answer, whatever country it may be. And maybe its because I'm preoccupied with my anatomy and ecology courses, maybe its because I'm just starting my own independent life. Or maybe its because I have barely lived out a quarter of my so-predicted lifespan, and have plenty to experience and plenty of things formulate opinions on.
So, to be blunt, I think America has a lot to learn from, just like I do.

QuasiMojo

settie...
You are so right.

but let me ask you. If your country were to be invaded(by a bug or by Chinese soldiers from the north) WHO?
I say WHO will you ask help of?

It will be us.

It will be us.

goddamn it will be the U S of A.

__________________
AzAbOv ZoBeLoE

settie

And I don't mind that one freakin' bit. Actually, I'm very satisfied living in the country next to the richest one, cause, whether we admit it or not, we are here for each other. We're both on this continent, and if we can't keep peace and help each other out, we're SOL.

Seeker

Why are we being asked to expand and perpetuate our monkeysphere?

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

QuasiMojo

Aint Though

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AzAbOv ZoBeLoE

alansmithee

Dammit, my secret's out.

No, but seriously, nice find. Not many people notice the significance.

But more on topic, despite all the hand-wringing and America bashing, nobody has actually refuted anything I've said. It seems obvious that much of the world currently has a unfavorable opinion of the US administration. And also, despite the "Administration bad, people good" mantra chanted, closer inspection seems to show that the rest of the world doesn't even care too much for the American people. Now, as one of the (supposedly few) Americans who does pay attention to global affairs, I was hoping that this thread might give me some insight into whether or not all this negative feeling was something that Americans should work to change, or if it's just typical resentment of a group of people who have more money/power/whatever. Because if America (and it's people) are doing something egregiously wrong, it should be changed. But if it's just sour grapes, I have no expectation of everyone liking America. And honestly, it's seeming alot more of the sour grapes than the actual wrongdoing.

QuasiMojo

alansmithee... Forget That Shit!

Yeah but....we dig it
all.

__________________
AzAbOv ZoBeLoE

tspikes51

To our defense, we've invaded fewer countries than most other major nations, even in the past 150 years. The ones we have invaded (barring Iraq) were either A) after they had been taken over by a hostile force (i.e. Kuwait, Europe in World War I and II, or Afghanistan), or B) after some other country asked us to (i.e. Vietnam). The only major nations I can think of that have invaded fewer countries are either in Asia or are Canada. Now, I'm not saying that invading Iraq was the right move, but, hey, try to give us a little credit. We're not warmongerers like the Mongols or the Romans.

I would really like to know what exactly what part of the American government people don't like (besides the executive administration, which I must remind you only has 1/3 of the power here). Is it the party system, because I can tell you at least one American who loves his government but hates the party system. I'm really curious as to what people don't like about it so maybe we can fix it.

__________________
"I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million."
-Maddox

crxforum

Here is my view on the US. First let me say that my mother lives in FLA. I live in Ontario. Ive been to the US so many times for extended periods so I feel that I have the right to voice my honest oppinions about stuff.

There are huge differences between the US and Canada. Most US people dont seem to feel that it is necessary to give a crap about anything that is going on outside of their own country, hell their state in most cases. They feel that they live in the best, strongest, and smartest country in the world. It sort of makes them dumfounded when I tell them that for the last 10 years (with 1 year exception) Canada has been ranked the best place to live in the world. That China, and North Korea both have larger armies than the US and most likely if they both faced off one on one the US would loose just to shear numbers, politics, and technology.

The US spends too much time thinking about Military stradgety so that people get impatient and then the US thinks that it has to move fast to save their reputation. Thus making errors and mistakes that normal countries wouldnt make.

America needs to step back and watch itself for a little while like the rest of the world does. Americans have a superiority complex and ignorance complex that I find very interesting. They feel that they are so important to the world but are ignorant to learn and investigate why they think that way or (heaven forbids) if another area of the world is better than they are.

America's children are one of the lowest ranked in education in the big 8. They have the highest mortality rate do to race on race crime. They have the highest hate crime rate. They have the highest general crime rate. They have the highest murder rate (by far). They have the highest substance abuse rate. These are not just because the US has no many people. Scaled down to each member of the big 8's population or inflated to their population it still is considerably high in comparision to the others.

Why do you think that most of the world hates the US? Becasue your portait of yourselves on TV and other outlets are selfish, cocky, arrogant, mean, power hungry, and self centered country.

Calm down America and look at yourself in the mirror. You have more flaws than you think you do and throwing money at them instead of sitting down and trying to ask for help on how to solve them, instead of threatening anyone with an oppinion on what you should do, might actually assist you in the long run.

CRX Forum

alansmithee

If you think we would lose a war vs. china or N. Korea you have no understanding of modern warfare. It isn't just numbers (as most successful militaries would attest), it's quality. And China and N. Korea lack severly in comparison to quality of military technology. I don't think anyone with any understanding of military opperation would argue that.

And as for us asking for help on how to solve our problems, when there's a country that's definitely better, it might be something to consider. But currently, all you can do is trade one set of problems for another. And outside of UK, no other nation would have any sort of experience in how to handle being the sole top dog in the world (and UK's expertise might be somewhat dated). And how many other nations are asking the US (who must've done something right to reach this position) on how to run their affairs? Again, all you talk about is American arrogance, while touting your country as the best place in the world to live and assuming that you have no problems internally.