The mayor of New Orleans is coming unglued... NOW with a poll!! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

analog · 09-02-2005, 04:14 PM

New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin has been very vocal lately. Here is the latest, and perhaps most biting, conversation he's had publicly about post-Katrina New Orleans...

Even though it's kinda long, I'm putting the whole thing here in case the link dies.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nag...ipt/index.html

Quote:

Mayor to feds: 'Get off your asses'

(CNN) -- New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin blasted the slow pace of federal and state relief efforts in an expletive-laced interview with local radio station WWL-AM.

The following is a transcript of WWL correspondent Garland Robinette's interview with Nagin on Thursday night. Robinette asked the mayor about his conversation with President Bush:

NAGIN: I told him we had an incredible crisis here and that his flying over in Air Force One does not do it justice. And that I have been all around this city, and I am very frustrated because we are not able to marshal resources and we're outmanned in just about every respect. (Listen to the mayor express his frustration in this video -- 12:09)

You know the reason why the looters got out of control? Because we had most of our resources saving people, thousands of people that were stuck in attics, man, old ladies. ... You pull off the doggone ventilator vent and you look down there and they're standing in there in water up to their freaking necks.

And they don't have a clue what's going on down here. They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of goddamn -- excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed.

WWL: Did you say to the president of the United States, "I need the military in here"?

NAGIN: I said, "I need everything."

Now, I will tell you this -- and I give the president some credit on this -- he sent one John Wayne dude down here that can get some stuff done, and his name is [Lt.] Gen. [Russel] Honore.

And he came off the doggone chopper, and he started cussing and people started moving. And he's getting some stuff done.

They ought to give that guy -- if they don't want to give it to me, give him full authority to get the job done, and we can save some people.

WWL: What do you need right now to get control of this situation?

NAGIN: I need reinforcements, I need troops, man. I need 500 buses, man. We ain't talking about -- you know, one of the briefings we had, they were talking about getting public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out here.

I'm like, "You got to be kidding me. This is a national disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans."

That's -- they're thinking small, man. And this is a major, major, major deal. And I can't emphasize it enough, man. This is crazy.

I've got 15,000 to 20,000 people over at the convention center. It's bursting at the seams. The poor people in Plaquemines Parish. ... We don't have anything, and we're sharing with our brothers in Plaquemines Parish.

It's awful down here, man.

WWL: Do you believe that the president is seeing this, holding a news conference on it but can't do anything until [Louisiana Gov.] Kathleen Blanco requested him to do it? And do you know whether or not she has made that request?

NAGIN: I have no idea what they're doing. But I will tell you this: You know, God is looking down on all this, and if they are not doing everything in their power to save people, they are going to pay the price. Because every day that we delay, people are dying and they're dying by the hundreds, I'm willing to bet you.

We're getting reports and calls that are breaking my heart, from people saying, "I've been in my attic. I can't take it anymore. The water is up to my neck. I don't think I can hold out." And that's happening as we speak.

You know what really upsets me, Garland? We told everybody the importance of the 17th Street Canal issue. We said, "Please, please take care of this. We don't care what you do. Figure it out."

WWL: Who'd you say that to?

NAGIN: Everybody: the governor, Homeland Security, FEMA. You name it, we said it.

And they allowed that pumping station next to Pumping Station 6 to go under water. Our sewage and water board people ... stayed there and endangered their lives.

And what happened when that pumping station went down, the water started flowing again in the city, and it starting getting to levels that probably killed more people.

In addition to that, we had water flowing through the pipes in the city. That's a power station over there.

So there's no water flowing anywhere on the east bank of Orleans Parish. So our critical water supply was destroyed because of lack of action.

WWL: Why couldn't they drop the 3,000-pound sandbags or the containers that they were talking about earlier? Was it an engineering feat that just couldn't be done?

NAGIN: They said it was some pulleys that they had to manufacture. But, you know, in a state of emergency, man, you are creative, you figure out ways to get stuff done.

Then they told me that they went overnight, and they built 17 concrete structures and they had the pulleys on them and they were going to drop them.

I flew over that thing yesterday, and it's in the same shape that it was after the storm hit. There is nothing happening. And they're feeding the public a line of bull and they're spinning, and people are dying down here.

WWL: If some of the public called and they're right, that there's a law that the president, that the federal government can't do anything without local or state requests, would you request martial law?

NAGIN: I've already called for martial law in the city of New Orleans. We did that a few days ago.

WWL: Did the governor do that, too?

NAGIN: I don't know. I don't think so.

But we called for martial law when we realized that the looting was getting out of control. And we redirected all of our police officers back to patrolling the streets. They were dead-tired from saving people, but they worked all night because we thought this thing was going to blow wide open last night. And so we redirected all of our resources, and we hold it under check.

I'm not sure if we can do that another night with the current resources.

And I am telling you right now: They're showing all these reports of people looting and doing all that weird stuff, and they are doing that, but people are desperate and they're trying to find food and water, the majority of them.

Now you got some knuckleheads out there, and they are taking advantage of this lawless -- this situation where, you know, we can't really control it, and they're doing some awful, awful things. But that's a small majority of the people. Most people are looking to try and survive.

And one of the things people -- nobody's talked about this. Drugs flowed in and out of New Orleans and the surrounding metropolitan area so freely it was scary to me, and that's why we were having the escalation in murders. People don't want to talk about this, but I'm going to talk about it.

You have drug addicts that are now walking around this city looking for a fix, and that's the reason why they were breaking in hospitals and drugstores. They're looking for something to take the edge off of their jones, if you will.

And right now, they don't have anything to take the edge off. And they've probably found guns. So what you're seeing is drug-starving crazy addicts, drug addicts, that are wrecking havoc. And we don't have the manpower to adequately deal with it. We can only target certain sections of the city and form a perimeter around them and hope to God that we're not overrun.

WWL: Well, you and I must be in the minority. Because apparently there's a section of our citizenry out there that thinks because of a law that says the federal government can't come in unless requested by the proper people, that everything that's going on to this point has been done as good as it can possibly be.

NAGIN: Really?

WWL: I know you don't feel that way.

NAGIN: Well, did the tsunami victims request? Did it go through a formal process to request?

You know, did the Iraqi people request that we go in there? Did they ask us to go in there? What is more important?

And I'll tell you, man, I'm probably going get in a whole bunch of trouble. I'm probably going to get in so much trouble it ain't even funny. You probably won't even want to deal with me after this interview is over.

WWL: You and I will be in the funny place together.

NAGIN: But we authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq lickety-quick. After 9/11, we gave the president unprecedented powers lickety-quick to take care of New York and other places.

Now, you mean to tell me that a place where most of your oil is coming through, a place that is so unique when you mention New Orleans anywhere around the world, everybody's eyes light up -- you mean to tell me that a place where you probably have thousands of people that have died and thousands more that are dying every day, that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need? Come on, man.

You know, I'm not one of those drug addicts. I am thinking very clearly.

And I don't know whose problem it is. I don't know whether it's the governor's problem. I don't know whether it's the president's problem, but somebody needs to get their ass on a plane and sit down, the two of them, and figure this out right now.

WWL: What can we do here?

NAGIN: Keep talking about it.

WWL: We'll do that. What else can we do?

NAGIN: Organize people to write letters and make calls to their congressmen, to the president, to the governor. Flood their doggone offices with requests to do something. This is ridiculous.

I don't want to see anybody do anymore goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city. And then come down to this city and stand with us when there are military trucks and troops that we can't even count.

Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. They're not here. It's too doggone late. Now get off your asses and do something, and let's fix the biggest goddamn crisis in the history of this country.

WWL: I'll say it right now, you're the only politician that's called and called for arms like this. And if -- whatever it takes, the governor, president -- whatever law precedent it takes, whatever it takes, I bet that the people listening to you are on your side.

NAGIN: Well, I hope so, Garland. I am just -- I'm at the point now where it don't matter. People are dying. They don't have homes. They don't have jobs. The city of New Orleans will never be the same in this time.

WWL: We're both pretty speechless here.

NAGIN: Yeah, I don't know what to say. I got to go.

WWL: OK. Keep in touch. Keep in touch.

I think it's great that he's speaking his mind about this, and not being a political zombie weakling about the whole thing. Just today, the military finally started coming in with supplies, starting to form some semblance of order, or even hope.

Does anyone feel that the way he's speaking is detrimental to the morale of his citizenry, or at all hindering the progress (what little progress is being made) because of his negative speaking? Do any of you feel he would better serve his people by being a constant, positive reassurance (where the situation is so dire, any assurances would be known as false, but encouraging nonetheless)? Or do you feel that, while he may make people feel a *little* better by staying positive, he's getting better, faster results by being so vocal?

Redjake · 09-02-2005, 04:25 PM

Interesting interview. I don't think he is out of line at all. They need as much help as they can get right now, not tomorrow or the day after. Not out of line at all. Being this vocal and to-the-point is very tactical in my opinion. It needs to get done. People are dying by the hundreds apparently and if they had more people down there helping, they wouldn't be dying as fast. We aren't talking about a productivity loss here, we are talking about people dying!

shakran · 09-02-2005, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

Does anyone feel that the way he's speaking is detrimental to the morale of his citizenry,

No, because the vast majority of his citizenry can't hear him. . .no electricity. Otherwise, no, because they're all pissed as hell and when you're pissed as hell it's always nice to hear someone yelling that they're pissed as hell on your behalf, ya know?

Quote:

or at all hindering the progress (what little progress is being made) because of his negative speaking?

Not yet because he has a right to be pissed and I think most people recognize that. .. . .but he's walking a very fine line. If he keeps this up too long people will start getting annoyed.

maleficent · 09-02-2005, 04:27 PM

this guy is getting on my nerves - yeah he's entitled to be more than a little peeve, but throwing tantrums for the media isnt helping... and I think it's probably doing more to incite than anything else.

When 9/11 happened, Rudy was a pillar of strength, he was a person that people could look to for support, I dont see the mayor of new orleans acting in a similar manner.

The mayor was caught totally unprepared for the end result of the hurricane, heck a mandatory evacuation wasn't called until it was pretty much too late, now he seems to be looking to blame everyone else for the mess now (not that he's wrong), but I don't see him accepting any responsibility for anything.

it's a tough situation for him to be in... but the end result of a Cat 5 hurricane hitting new orleans isn't news... They had been playing interviews from years ago with a city engineer about what would happen... Why was there no contingency plan?

flstf · 09-02-2005, 04:59 PM

I agree with maleficent. No doubt the federal and state help could have been faster and better targeted but the Mayor was caught off guard as well.

About the only thing he did right before the hurricane hit was tell people to get out of town and provide free bus rides to the Superdome for those who couldn't. Why weren't they screaming for the feds to provide bus convoys to get people out of the city before the storm?

The local N.O. officials and Louisiana Governor were just as unprepared for the magnitude of the flooding as the feds were.

StanT · 09-02-2005, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

When 9/11 happened, Rudy was a pillar of strength, he was a person that people could look to for support, I dont see the mayor of new orleans acting in a similar manner.

Agreed, Guiliani and Pataki are the best example of how a mayor and governor should act in a crisis. Unlike 9/11, this hurricane should not have been a suprise. While there is plenty of room for criticism at the federal level, this isn't the time for the mayor to be throwing a temper tantrum, it's time for him to do his job.

ObieX · 09-02-2005, 05:00 PM

I wish more politicians would speak their minds like this. This isnt the time for Pc bullshit it's the time to act, and the State/fed Governments aren't doing it. I would be pissed too. And he's absolutely right, the respone has been.. well i would call it a joke.. but its not funny in the least.

Stompy · 09-02-2005, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

When 9/11 happened, Rudy was a pillar of strength, he was a person that people could look to for support, I dont see the mayor of new orleans acting in a similar manner.

The federal government didn't wait days to help those involved with 9/11. As bad as 9/11 was, I think this is a bit more serioius - the ENTIRE CITY is decimated. Gone.

9/11 - thousands of people died and the WTC collapsed. NYC was back to running not even a week later. I don't think New Orleans will be back up anytime within the next year or so.

They coulda sent in help to New Orleans the very day after (they knew the hurricane was coming). Did they? No. Why not? Did they think the hurricane was just gonna stop and turn away?

He's got every right to flip.

These people in power don't do much during the crisis. They make the appropriate calls from an office somewhere and make flashy speeches (usually involving some cliche phrase like "we shall pull together and overcome this obstacle and return this great city to what it once was!" - or variations thereof) to the press, but that's really about it. If anything, this mayor shoudl get more respect than Rudy for showing he's HUMAN and not a speech making robot.

Rudy was the mayor, but he himself didn't do anything special to help people, nor did Bush.

I'm sure if the feds screwed around for days, completely ignoring NYC during 9/11, Rudy would've been doin the same thing.

meembo · 09-02-2005, 06:08 PM

I like it. In the presence of great suffering by tens of thousands of people, I like the frankness of the mayor. His words barely reflected the frustration and anger of American citizens being stood up for rescue IN OUR COUNTRY and being left to fend for themselves. Fight the power. Don't trust whitey.

streak_56 · 09-02-2005, 06:15 PM

I just question how prepared the city and state was for this? Obviously not that well prepared. When most of the city is under sea level, what do you expect when such a force decimates the city? It wasn't a matter of how, it was a matter of when.

I agree whole heartedly with Maleficent, Guilani was a pillar of strength for New York. And I agree with the fact that Nagin is inciting panic with outbursts like that. But I also agree with the fact that he is HUMAN and he's angry because he doesn't see progress.

I feel that after the clean up and recovery has happened (two or three years later), that someone would think twice about living in New Orleans. Personally, I don't even think that they should build the city on the same site. It's a volitile site and is subject to many different types of hazards. Such as hurricanes and floods for example. When I see the out bursts of people on the news, showing how bad things are, yes it is true that action should've been taken quicker. But what resources does the Mayor allocate to this situation?

Thank god Houston opened their hearts to help out. But I don't see what the Mayor has done, what the Governor has done. Federal troops are in there now to help people out and to bring food. I know that here in Canada we're waiting for the word that we can help out, but there's no response. Personally, I don't see how this compares to 9/11, which was a terrorist attack not a natural disaster. It should be a state and/or local problem that should be resolved there.

I would just hope that further incidents can be prevented from this, that the city needs to plan for this, that it is inevitable when your city is below sea level. Mother nature is a power to be reckon with. And I sympathize for the family and friends that have lost many lives in their struggle to survive. I have a friend going to school in New Orleans, still haven't heard back from him, thats why some of us have to sit back and wait patiently.

Vincentt · 09-02-2005, 06:16 PM

Yeah, the responce to 9/11 and New Orleans are totally diffrent.

Everyone cared about 9/11, some people don't seem to care about the people in NO.

"they could have left", etc I dunno, look how many negtive threads there are on TFP dealing with NO...

Destrox · 09-02-2005, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

The federal government didn't wait days to help those involved with 9/11. As bad as 9/11 was, I think this is a bit more serioius - the ENTIRE CITY is decimated. Gone.

I feel exactly the same way, and I am absolutly disgusted by how our goverment is just standing on the sidelines with their hands in their pockets for this event.

I applaud the mayor standing up for the people, and not his title.

To compare this to Mr.Rudy G just isnt possible I dont think.

maleficent · 09-02-2005, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by streak_56

Thank god Houston opened their hearts to help out. .

amen to that -- God Bless Rick Perry and Bill White, I'd be curious to know what texans really thought of these gentlemen, but seeing them on the news, neither guy looks like they have slept in days, but seem to be doing everything tehy can to make something work...

quadro2000 · 09-02-2005, 06:39 PM

I listened to the entire interview, and afterwards, I thought: I wish my elected officials were that real. I don't know what he sounded like before this event, but this is a man who is clearly emotionally affected by what has happened, and will do whatever he has to do in order to get people to, as he said, get off their asses and help. I'd rather hear him speak frankly, even if he sounds angry or uses bad language, than see another image of President Bush pretending to look concerned about anything.

maleficent · 09-02-2005, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadro2000

Ithan see another image of President Bush pretending to look concerned about anything.

[snippy mode]
Gee i wasn't aware that you were so tight with the President, that you actually know when he's pretending to do something or not....

Good gawd-- must everything be a slam against bush?

samcol · 09-02-2005, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadro2000

I listened to the entire interview, and afterwards, I thought: I wish my elected officials were that real. I don't know what he sounded like before this event, but this is a man who is clearly emotionally affected by what has happened, and will do whatever he has to do in order to get people to, as he said, get off their asses and help. I'd rather hear him speak frankly, even if he sounds angry or uses bad language, than see another image of President Bush pretending to look concerned about anything.

I agree. A candid response from a politician is what people are really looking for here. At least he's being honest. It doesn't do any good to sugar coat this in my opinion.

maximusveritas · 09-02-2005, 06:46 PM

Yeah, you really can't compare 9/11 to this.
I was in New York on 9/11 and even though everyone was in shock, the damage was confined to a relatively small area in the city. In this case the damage is widespread throughout the Gulf region. There are plenty of other differences, but that is the big one.

While Mayor Nagin probably could have handled this situation better, there was no way he had the power to completely deal with it. That had to come from the state and federal level. What I see in the interview is a man who sees what is going on but is powerless to help. He's pleading for help and hopefully he will get it soon.

samcol · 09-02-2005, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

[snippy mode]
Gee i wasn't aware that you were so tight with the President, that you actually know when he's pretending to do something or not....

Good gawd-- must everything be a slam against bush?

Yes. It's almost becoming difficult to not point out his incompetence and total disregard. There was little concern or urgency in his speech today.

StanT · 09-02-2005, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximusveritas

Yeah, you really can't compare 9/11 to this.
I was in New York on 9/11 and even though everyone was in shock, the damage was confined to a relatively small area in the city. In this case the damage is widespread throughout the Gulf region. There are plenty of other differences, but that is the big one.

I'd say the biggest difference was the ability to plan ahead and the ineptness with which it was done.

Out side of some wild ass speculation, taking down the world trade center was a complete suprise. Guiliani and Pataki did an incredible job on a disaster that no one expected.

This isn't the first hurricane to hit the gulf coast. New Orleans is below sea level, this is a disaster that everyone knew was going to happen eventually. How many days did we all watch weather forecast that showed Katrina going through New Orleans. When did the mayor make the evacuation mandatory? What did he do to enforce it? The mayor is asking for 500 buses to evacuate people, pictures on CNN show nearly that many school buses sitting under flood waters. Maybe he should have used them? Ahead of the storm?

There is no excuse for Mayor Nagin to be unprepared for this disaster. While there is plenty of blame to go around, the burden of preparedness and evacuation was his and he blew it.

ObieX · 09-02-2005, 07:08 PM

He's the mayor of the city, not the Governor of the state, or the president. What could he possibly do other than beg and plead for help? Its not like he can shift resources from one area to another - he has no resources, the ENTIRE CITY was destroyed. Not just a block or a couple buildings, an entire city is underwater and devistated. He, and his citizens, are the ones who need help here, some folks here seem to think its the other way around - i don't understand. Coordination of emergency resources is not his job, he said it himself. That job belongs to people higher up the chain and they're dropping the ball. Don't get annoyed with him because he sees his citizens suffering with no help in sight and isn't smiling like a moron saying "it'll all be ok", because it isn't ok, and it's not going to be ok any time soon.

His job right now is to be the voice of his citizens and beg for someone to help. If colorful language gets it done a little sooner, then its time to bust out the urban slang dictionary.

Elphaba · 09-02-2005, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

When 9/11 happened, Rudy was a pillar of strength, he was a person that people could look to for support, I dont see the mayor of new orleans acting in a similar manner.

First, it is not my intention to minimize the loss of life that occurred on 911.

That being said, Rudy didn't witness the destruction of New York City, or even Manhatten for that matter. Nor did he watch the continuing loss of life over several days while waiting for emergency response teams from any source.

The loss of life in the four gulf states hit by Katrina may well exceed the loss of life on 911.

Elphaba · 09-02-2005, 07:34 PM

From an article I posted in Politics:

Quote:

By March of 2003, FEMA was no longer a Cabinet-level position, and was folded into the Department of Homeland Security. Its primary mission was recast towards fighting acts of terrorism. In June of 2004, the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for levee construction in New Orleans was cut by a record $71.2 million. Jefferson Parish emergency management chief Walter Maestri said at the time, "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay."

I'm sorry, but I am calling bullshit on laying all the blame on the mayor. We have a pork laden Transportation budget that with the least bit of trimming would have covered the SELA funds that were cut off over the last three frickin' years.

StanT · 09-02-2005, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

I'm sorry, but I am calling bullshit on laying all the blame on the mayor. We have a pork laden Transportation budget that with the least bit of trimming would have covered the SELA funds that were cut off over the last three frickin' years.

There's plenty of blame to go around, but the mayor's glass house is as large as anyone's.

bad jane · 09-02-2005, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StanT

There is no excuse for Mayor Nagin to be unprepared for this disaster. While there is plenty of blame to go around, the burden of preparedness and evacuation was his and he blew it.

amen to that.

but i do applaud his efforts to beg help for his people now. i am not a bush fan, and i'd love to chalk this up to being his fault. but if mayor nagin had been so vocal and interested in protecting his city when he knew katrina was coming--how many lives could he have saved?

Stompy · 09-02-2005, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

[snippy mode]
Gee i wasn't aware that you were so tight with the President, that you actually know when he's pretending to do something or not....

Good gawd-- must everything be a slam against bush?

People are slamming Bush because he's head of federal govt, and the complete lack of response on their part is ridiculous. The part of the govt that we depend on, that's supposed to help and protect us in times of need literally sat there doing absolutely NOTHING for days!

Also, think of this... if it took days to amass the help. Just imagine what would happen during a huge crisis, say another terrorist attack. We just aren't ready, despite claims from Bush (amongst other politicians) that America is on its toes ready for any challenge. It's a lie. It's just crappy.

The mayor is responsible for calls for help - anything outside of that is left up to state & federal level. So on so forth..

Really, no reason it took DAYS to get help in. There's seriously no excuse for it. I knew the hurricane was gonna hit N.O. just by watching the weather forcast the few days before it.. I remember eating dinner on sun night w/ my girlfriend in the restaurant watching CNN and saying, "you watch, that entire city's gonna be gone."

If me, the "average" cititzen, knows it's gonna hit and what it's gonna do, surely the govt knows the same thing.

They should've had troops and supplies standing on the sidelines ready to go in the very second the storm stopped knowing it's NEW ORLEANS and it's below sea level.

Everyone watching knew it was gonna happen, too. What else do ya expect to happen?

vautrain · 09-02-2005, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StanT

While there is plenty of blame to go around, the burden of preparedness and evacuation was his and he blew it.

Wow, talk about a back-handed statement. Which is it, is there plenty of blame to go around, or was does the blame for lack of preparedness and evacuation rest on the mayor? You can't have it both ways.

Personally, I think the mayor probably lacked the resources to take care of preparation and evacuation of the entire city. Given the great national importance and special vulnerabilities of New Orleans, I believe it was the job of the federal government to adequately protect New Orleans from this disaster.

The mayor has been stripped of all his power in this situation, and has been stripped of all his resources, and has been stripped of his city, I believe the mayor is doing, now, the only thing he can do. He is representing the interests of the people of his city.

ObieX · 09-02-2005, 08:03 PM

The mayor wasn't the only one who knew the hurricane was coming. People in the south keep track of those sorta things, they've lived through hurricanes and know what they can do. The residents aren't stupid. There's little you can do except board up your windows and hope for the best. There was an evacuation warning, and some warning is better than no warning. If there was no warning it still isn't like no one knew a hurricane was coming. And the people of New Orleans know the circumstances they face as far as elevation and all that stuff. You can yell and scream at some people to evacuate but there will ALWAYS ALWAYS be people who stay behind for whatever reason. Be it a medical reason, or just not wanting to abandon their home. I don't see how the people who did evacuate made out any better. They got crammed into a stadium and got left there to rot by everyone. Those are the ones who listened to the warnings.
Multiple hurricanes roll through that area every year, and you never know what track they'll take until they're pretty much right on top of you. Every time you look at a course for a hurricane on the news you don't see a line, you see a wedge of a predicted area that the hurricane could follow. You could get obliterated by it or just get some rain and wind.

The guy is doing the best he can from what i can tell. He's the mayor of a city, there's only so much he can do, he only has so much power. And when your city is wiped out you have no power. He's the mayor of a swamp now, can't do very much with that.

Ustwo · 09-02-2005, 08:16 PM

I think unglued is the best description for him.

Its a shame that NO had such incompetent leadership when it needed a leader most.

optik_nerve · 09-02-2005, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

Yes. It's almost becoming difficult to not point out his incompetence and total disregard. There was little concern or urgency in his speech today.

Fine example of The Peter Principle.

I personally think Nagin had every right to say what he said and I support him all the way. Sure, they weren't prepared but...get over. When Hurricane Charley hit here, nobody was prepared for it. All of the weathermen said the projected path was towards Tampa. Well, everybody evac'd Tampa and fled south to...you guessed it, Punta Gorda, Naples and Ft. Myers. Exactly where Charley made landfall and the national guard was here that night to help with supplies and clean-up.

Marvelous Marv · 09-02-2005, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

From an article I posted in Politics:

I'm sorry, but I am calling bullshit on laying all the blame on the mayor. We have a pork laden Transportation budget that with the least bit of trimming would have covered the SELA funds that were cut off over the last three frickin' years.

So is it your contention that had the budget not been cut, the two levees that broke would, by now, have been retrofitted to withstand a category Five hurricane?

Marvelous Marv · 09-02-2005, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

Also, think of this... if it took days to amass the help. Just imagine what would happen during a huge crisis, say another terrorist attack. We just aren't ready, despite claims from Bush (amongst other politicians) that America is on its toes ready for any challenge. It's a lie. It's just crappy.

I must not watch the same news shows you do. I can find plenty of statements where he said we need to improve, but I'm unable to find anything in which he says we're "ready for any challenge."

He may have said we are EQUAL to any challenge, but that's different.

Quote:

Really, no reason it took DAYS to get help in. There's seriously no excuse for it. I knew the hurricane was gonna hit N.O. just by watching the weather forcast the few days before it.. I remember eating dinner on sun night w/ my girlfriend in the restaurant watching CNN and saying, "you watch, that entire city's gonna be gone."

Did you post that here? All I see on the news lately is talking heads who knew exactly what would happen, but they all neglected to mention the steps that should be taken until afterward.

vautrain · 09-02-2005, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

So is it your contention that had the budget not been cut, the two levees that broke would, by now, have been retrofitted to withstand a category Five hurricane?

The levees have been in a state of some disrepair for several years now. It was well-known by the people charged with maintaining the levees. They asked for funding to reinforce them, but were turned down.

alansmithee · 09-02-2005, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincentt

Yeah, the responce to 9/11 and New Orleans are totally diffrent.

Everyone cared about 9/11, some people don't seem to care about the people in NO.

"they could have left", etc I dunno, look how many negtive threads there are on TFP dealing with NO...

The reason for this is obvious. When the WTC went down, it was nice, hardworking white folks who were suffering. But in New Orleans, it's just the dirty, thieving niggers who are dying. Many people are secretly happy about this, and would prefer if there was no aid sent.

analog · 09-02-2005, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

The reason for this is obvious. When the WTC went down, it was nice, hardworking white folks who were suffering. But in New Orleans, it's just the dirty, thieving niggers who are dying. Many people are secretly happy about this, and would prefer if there was no aid sent.

I don't really see any basis for this argument. I don't think racism is anywhere near as common as that comment asserts.

Does there have to be a reason to support the idea that the government is a blundering bunch of fuckwits? Can't they just be total morons without also being racists?

alansmithee · 09-03-2005, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

I don't really see any basis for this argument. I don't think racism is anywhere near as common as that comment asserts.

Does there have to be a reason to support the idea that the government is a blundering bunch of fuckwits? Can't they just be total morons without also being racists?

I wasn't talking so much about the gov't as to the general lack of compassion/sympathy in the hurricane vicims in relation to what the victims of the WTC attacks recieved. I've seen opinions that would support what I stated on many message boards, and even somewhat in the news. To me, it's just something that is bringing forward yet again the large racial divide in the country. I dont' recall anyone complaining about aid for 9/11 victims, yet there are numerous posts even on this board complaining about sending aid to New Orleans. And even though the situations aren't exactly parallel, I would say that NO is the worse, simply because the area of affect is greater, there's going to be more lasting impact, and those affected are less able to provide for themselves (especially considering that many of their workplaces and homes were also decimated). If you were a WTC survivor, chances are that you would still have a home to go to, and at least have access to clean food and water. The same cannot be said for the hurricane victims.

Also, many blacks feel that part of the current problem in NO is the lack of sympathy from whites. Kanye West did an interview on NBC where he talked about much the same thing (only he placed more blame on the administration for racist motives than on the general populace). Now, obviously he doesn't speak for all blacks, but on other forums (and in real life) I have heard much of the same feelings echoed. And NBC was troubled enough by what he said to edit it out of their central/pacific time zone telecasts. If anyone's interested, the interview can be found on MSNBC's site (which seems slightly odd that they would leave it there while editing it from TV).

Daniel_ · 09-03-2005, 12:15 AM

There was an evacuation warning.

But the local N.O. charity hospital (i.e. not a rich private one) asked for help in carrying out the evacuation and got NOTHING from the city, state, or US Govt.

People in the poor areas who heard the evac. warning had nowhere to go, no way to get there, and no resources sent their way by city, state, or federal govt.

Interesting to see a similar tropical storm in China - there was mandatory evacuation in the days running up to landfall, well resourced by the national govt. and then a security cordon placed around the evacuated city to keep out looters.

Lots of people stayed n N.O. because they had no way out, and lots of people stayed because they believed that as soon as their backs were turned all their stuff would be ripped off by the gun armed poor.

There was a piece from a UK reporter in N.O. this morning that I heard, saying that the scale of the resources put into the rescue/recovery is vast, but that you can't see SHIT happening inside the city. It's all on the fringes (i.e. saving PROPERTY not PEOPLE).

At the convention centre there are 10 - 15 thou refugees, and a squad of armed police/nat. guard to shoot people if they start trouble - but NOBODY taking names or doing medical assessments to see what resources are required, or who might need medevac.

I watched some footage of a squadron of Chinook helicopters making delivery drops in the city.

They were dropping ice. ICE!

Not food, or water, but ice. The small amount of food that they had on board (six crates of MRE) were not handed out in a systematic fashion, but given one case each to the first six people that came to the door. Other people nearby spoke of being threatened with handguns when they approached the "lucky winners".

The USMC as experience of handing out aid to a lawless and frightened populace (anyone remember Mogadishu?) - but all the classic mistakes seem to be being made on the ground at home.

I pity the victims.

World's King · 09-03-2005, 12:52 AM

The problem with this is that his people would rather bitch and kill each other then fix their problems. And he's is no different.

That's the life of the Big Easy...

analog · 09-03-2005, 01:06 AM

I added the poll because I think there's a bit of a split here, and I want to see how big the rift is.... so, go vote.

cyrnel · 09-03-2005, 01:33 AM

Can't help but be reminded of my visits, and the colour of the place. His language feels very much like New Orleans to me.

As for responsibility, it's everyone's. But disaster preparedness and recovery is very much a state/national responsibility. For every city to supply resources for all possible misfortunes on their own shoulders would be impossible and wasteful. Instead we pool resources and use where most needed.

Certainly, the mayor should ask for help but once larger entities are involved they should be calling the shots in response to needs.

This feels like the failing of a large bureaucracy (DHS) that's put all its time into theory, consideration, and self-justification and not enough into implementation.

Daniel_ · 09-03-2005, 01:40 AM

I voted "hell yes!"

View Poll Results: Your opinion on the mayor's interview, and his candor...
He's being over the top, and it's warranted and maybe needed for what's happening. It's great.	37	35.58%
shrug for his approach, but his message is important, and his "realness" is important. I like it.	36	34.62%
I don't have an opinion / didn't stir me one way or the other.	6	5.77%
Regardless of the "realness", I think he needs to be a strong leader. I don't like it.	8	7.69%
His behavior was uncalled for, unprofessional, and isn't what his people need right now. I hate it.	17	16.35%
Voters: 104. You may not vote on this poll

09-02-2005, 04:25 PM	#2 (permalink)
Redjake I'm a family man - I run a family business. Location: Wilson, NC	Interesting interview. I don't think he is out of line at all. They need as much help as they can get right now, not tomorrow or the day after. Not out of line at all. Being this vocal and to-the-point is very tactical in my opinion. It needs to get done. People are dying by the hundreds apparently and if they had more people down there helping, they wouldn't be dying as fast. We aren't talking about a productivity loss here, we are talking about people dying! __________________ Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush.

09-02-2005, 04:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	this guy is getting on my nerves - yeah he's entitled to be more than a little peeve, but throwing tantrums for the media isnt helping... and I think it's probably doing more to incite than anything else. When 9/11 happened, Rudy was a pillar of strength, he was a person that people could look to for support, I dont see the mayor of new orleans acting in a similar manner. The mayor was caught totally unprepared for the end result of the hurricane, heck a mandatory evacuation wasn't called until it was pretty much too late, now he seems to be looking to blame everyone else for the mess now (not that he's wrong), but I don't see him accepting any responsibility for anything. it's a tough situation for him to be in... but the end result of a Cat 5 hurricane hitting new orleans isn't news... They had been playing interviews from years ago with a city engineer about what would happen... Why was there no contingency plan? __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

09-02-2005, 05:00 PM	#7 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	I wish more politicians would speak their minds like this. This isnt the time for Pc bullshit it's the time to act, and the State/fed Governments aren't doing it. I would be pissed too. And he's absolutely right, the respone has been.. well i would call it a joke.. but its not funny in the least. __________________ We Must Dissent.

09-02-2005, 06:08 PM	#9 (permalink)
meembo Junkie Location: Connecticut	I like it. In the presence of great suffering by tens of thousands of people, I like the frankness of the mayor. His words barely reflected the frustration and anger of American citizens being stood up for rescue IN OUR COUNTRY and being left to fend for themselves. Fight the power. Don't trust whitey. __________________ less I say, smarter I am

09-02-2005, 04:59 PM	#5 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I agree with maleficent. No doubt the federal and state help could have been faster and better targeted but the Mayor was caught off guard as well. About the only thing he did right before the hurricane hit was tell people to get out of town and provide free bus rides to the Superdome for those who couldn't. Why weren't they screaming for the feds to provide bus convoys to get people out of the city before the storm? The local N.O. officials and Louisiana Governor were just as unprepared for the magnitude of the flooding as the feds were.

09-02-2005, 06:15 PM	#10 (permalink)
streak_56 who ever said streaking was a bad thing? Location: Calgary	I just question how prepared the city and state was for this? Obviously not that well prepared. When most of the city is under sea level, what do you expect when such a force decimates the city? It wasn't a matter of how, it was a matter of when. I agree whole heartedly with Maleficent, Guilani was a pillar of strength for New York. And I agree with the fact that Nagin is inciting panic with outbursts like that. But I also agree with the fact that he is HUMAN and he's angry because he doesn't see progress. I feel that after the clean up and recovery has happened (two or three years later), that someone would think twice about living in New Orleans. Personally, I don't even think that they should build the city on the same site. It's a volitile site and is subject to many different types of hazards. Such as hurricanes and floods for example. When I see the out bursts of people on the news, showing how bad things are, yes it is true that action should've been taken quicker. But what resources does the Mayor allocate to this situation? Thank god Houston opened their hearts to help out. But I don't see what the Mayor has done, what the Governor has done. Federal troops are in there now to help people out and to bring food. I know that here in Canada we're waiting for the word that we can help out, but there's no response. Personally, I don't see how this compares to 9/11, which was a terrorist attack not a natural disaster. It should be a state and/or local problem that should be resolved there. I would just hope that further incidents can be prevented from this, that the city needs to plan for this, that it is inevitable when your city is below sea level. Mother nature is a power to be reckon with. And I sympathize for the family and friends that have lost many lives in their struggle to survive. I have a friend going to school in New Orleans, still haven't heard back from him, thats why some of us have to sit back and wait patiently.

09-02-2005, 06:16 PM	#11 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	Yeah, the responce to 9/11 and New Orleans are totally diffrent. Everyone cared about 9/11, some people don't seem to care about the people in NO. "they could have left", etc I dunno, look how many negtive threads there are on TFP dealing with NO... __________________ .

09-02-2005, 06:39 PM	#14 (permalink)
quadro2000 All Possibility, Made Of Custard Location: New York, NY	I listened to the entire interview, and afterwards, I thought: I wish my elected officials were that real. I don't know what he sounded like before this event, but this is a man who is clearly emotionally affected by what has happened, and will do whatever he has to do in order to get people to, as he said, get off their asses and help. I'd rather hear him speak frankly, even if he sounds angry or uses bad language, than see another image of President Bush pretending to look concerned about anything. __________________ You have to laugh at yourself...because you'd cry your eyes out if you didn't. - Emily Saliers

09-02-2005, 06:46 PM	#17 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	Yeah, you really can't compare 9/11 to this. I was in New York on 9/11 and even though everyone was in shock, the damage was confined to a relatively small area in the city. In this case the damage is widespread throughout the Gulf region. There are plenty of other differences, but that is the big one. While Mayor Nagin probably could have handled this situation better, there was no way he had the power to completely deal with it. That had to come from the state and federal level. What I see in the interview is a man who sees what is going on but is powerless to help. He's pleading for help and hopefully he will get it soon.

09-02-2005, 07:08 PM	#20 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	He's the mayor of the city, not the Governor of the state, or the president. What could he possibly do other than beg and plead for help? Its not like he can shift resources from one area to another - he has no resources, the ENTIRE CITY was destroyed. Not just a block or a couple buildings, an entire city is underwater and devistated. He, and his citizens, are the ones who need help here, some folks here seem to think its the other way around - i don't understand. Coordination of emergency resources is not his job, he said it himself. That job belongs to people higher up the chain and they're dropping the ball. Don't get annoyed with him because he sees his citizens suffering with no help in sight and isn't smiling like a moron saying "it'll all be ok", because it isn't ok, and it's not going to be ok any time soon. His job right now is to be the voice of his citizens and beg for someone to help. If colorful language gets it done a little sooner, then its time to bust out the urban slang dictionary. __________________ We Must Dissent.

09-02-2005, 08:03 PM	#27 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	The mayor wasn't the only one who knew the hurricane was coming. People in the south keep track of those sorta things, they've lived through hurricanes and know what they can do. The residents aren't stupid. There's little you can do except board up your windows and hope for the best. There was an evacuation warning, and some warning is better than no warning. If there was no warning it still isn't like no one knew a hurricane was coming. And the people of New Orleans know the circumstances they face as far as elevation and all that stuff. You can yell and scream at some people to evacuate but there will ALWAYS ALWAYS be people who stay behind for whatever reason. Be it a medical reason, or just not wanting to abandon their home. I don't see how the people who did evacuate made out any better. They got crammed into a stadium and got left there to rot by everyone. Those are the ones who listened to the warnings. Multiple hurricanes roll through that area every year, and you never know what track they'll take until they're pretty much right on top of you. Every time you look at a course for a hurricane on the news you don't see a line, you see a wedge of a predicted area that the hurricane could follow. You could get obliterated by it or just get some rain and wind. The guy is doing the best he can from what i can tell. He's the mayor of a city, there's only so much he can do, he only has so much power. And when your city is wiped out you have no power. He's the mayor of a swamp now, can't do very much with that. __________________ We Must Dissent.

09-02-2005, 08:16 PM	#28 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I think unglued is the best description for him. Its a shame that NO had such incompetent leadership when it needed a leader most. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-03-2005, 12:15 AM	#36 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	There was an evacuation warning. But the local N.O. charity hospital (i.e. not a rich private one) asked for help in carrying out the evacuation and got NOTHING from the city, state, or US Govt. People in the poor areas who heard the evac. warning had nowhere to go, no way to get there, and no resources sent their way by city, state, or federal govt. Interesting to see a similar tropical storm in China - there was mandatory evacuation in the days running up to landfall, well resourced by the national govt. and then a security cordon placed around the evacuated city to keep out looters. Lots of people stayed n N.O. because they had no way out, and lots of people stayed because they believed that as soon as their backs were turned all their stuff would be ripped off by the gun armed poor. There was a piece from a UK reporter in N.O. this morning that I heard, saying that the scale of the resources put into the rescue/recovery is vast, but that you can't see SHIT happening inside the city. It's all on the fringes (i.e. saving PROPERTY not PEOPLE). At the convention centre there are 10 - 15 thou refugees, and a squad of armed police/nat. guard to shoot people if they start trouble - but NOBODY taking names or doing medical assessments to see what resources are required, or who might need medevac. I watched some footage of a squadron of Chinook helicopters making delivery drops in the city. They were dropping ice. ICE! Not food, or water, but ice. The small amount of food that they had on board (six crates of MRE) were not handed out in a systematic fashion, but given one case each to the first six people that came to the door. Other people nearby spoke of being threatened with handguns when they approached the "lucky winners". The USMC as experience of handing out aid to a lawless and frightened populace (anyone remember Mogadishu?) - but all the classic mistakes seem to be being made on the ground at home. I pity the victims. __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝ Last edited by Daniel_; 09-03-2005 at 12:18 AM..

09-03-2005, 12:52 AM	#37 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	The problem with this is that his people would rather bitch and kill each other then fix their problems. And he's is no different. That's the life of the Big Easy... __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

09-03-2005, 01:06 AM	#38 (permalink)
analog Banned	In stereo, where available. I added the poll because I think there's a bit of a split here, and I want to see how big the rift is.... so, go vote. Last edited by analog; 09-03-2005 at 01:18 AM..

09-03-2005, 01:33 AM	#39 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Can't help but be reminded of my visits, and the colour of the place. His language feels very much like New Orleans to me. As for responsibility, it's everyone's. But disaster preparedness and recovery is very much a state/national responsibility. For every city to supply resources for all possible misfortunes on their own shoulders would be impossible and wasteful. Instead we pool resources and use where most needed. Certainly, the mayor should ask for help but once larger entities are involved they should be calling the shots in response to needs. This feels like the failing of a large bureaucracy (DHS) that's put all its time into theory, consideration, and self-justification and not enough into implementation. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

09-03-2005, 01:40 AM	#40 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	I voted "hell yes!" __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝